Celtics Summer League

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,850
Awesome.

Neat that scouts say his footwork is "elite". Seems to be a different opinion in here ;)
 

Big John

New Member
Dec 9, 2016
2,086
Well, Fultz looked pretty good-- better on defense than I thought. But Tatum looked pretty good too, and so did Jaylen Brown. The Celtics' guard play wasn't that good, which is why the game was close.

If Philly cuts Alex Poythress, the Celtics ought to sign him. He's way better than Nader.
 

Soxy

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2008
6,095
My irrational exuberance for Brown and Tatum is at an all time high.

Demetrius Jackson.....not so much.
 

The Social Chair

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 17, 2010
6,082
Really impressed with Jaylen's shooting. He looked great at the free throw line.

Nader has that Nick Young / Dion Waters irrational confidence. I didn't enjoy him being a black hole and taking away shots from Tatum.
 

Big John

New Member
Dec 9, 2016
2,086
Really impressed with Jaylen's shooting. He looked great at the free throw line.

Nader has that Nick Young / Dion Waters irrational confidence. I didn't enjoy him being a black hole and taking away shots from Tatum.
Yep, Nader might be a star in Europe, but a fringe player at best in the NBA. His turnovers were unacceptable.
 

Soxy

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2008
6,095
One of the things that's great about that shot is how he creates space. At first glance it looks like he's fading away, but he's not. He jumps with his body at a slight enough angle that it creates space for him to get the shot off, but he still lands in the same spot that he launched from. If he goes up straight with his body perpendicular, his shot probably gets blocked.

For a 19 year old to be doing something like that probably exemplifies what they liked about this kid. That gives the impression he has a natural feel for the game.
 

rhopkins2323

New Member
Mar 14, 2010
111
Awesome.

Neat that scouts say his footwork is "elite". Seems to be a different opinion in here ;)
I love it. He was great.

You can take what the announcers say with a grain of salt. They are full of positive analysis. How many scouts did these guys really talk to?

Regardless, Tatum was awesome. I might be wrong about the footwork. Especially since he's 6'8 showing up and unders from about 12 feet out. That double pivot on that move was legit.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,094
I love it. He was great.

You can take what the announcers say with a grain of salt. They are full of positive analysis. How many scouts did these guys really talk to?

Regardless, Tatum was awesome. I might be wrong about the footwork. Especially since he's 6'8 showing up and unders from about 12 feet out. That double pivot on that move was legit.
You "might be" wrong? You are wrong.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,333
I love it. He was great.

You can take what the announcers say with a grain of salt. They are full of positive analysis. How many scouts did these guys really talk to?

Regardless, Tatum was awesome. I might be wrong about the footwork. Especially since he's 6'8 showing up and unders from about 12 feet out. That double pivot on that move was legit.
When Kevin O'Connor was writing up the draft and suggesting it was a good year to trade down, he absolutely raved about Tatum's footwork.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,850
You can take what the announcers say with a grain of salt. They are full of positive analysis. How many scouts did these guys really talk to?
Maybe just these:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jayson-Tatum-7249/
The St. Louis native is the most polished scorer of the bunch, with stellar footwork,
http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2017/06/2017_nba_draft_scouting_report.html
Most teenagers don't have that type of deliberate focus, and it's obvious in Tatum's footwork that he spends a heap of time on his craft.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2718041-everything-boston-celtics-fans-need-to-know-about-jayson-tatum
Tatum's footwork is advanced.
https://theringer.com/2017-nba-draft-jayson-tatum-duke-debate-552b94ebc7e6
If you took every freshman prospect this century and graded them on their footwork at the same age, Tatum would rank in an extremely high percentile.
 

finnVT

superspreadsheeter
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,153
Are there any analyses out there to suggest whether any particular summer league stats have any predictive value? I suspect in general the answer is "not much", or at best they require some heavy recalibration, but curious whether there's anything worth watching for.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,193
San Francisco
I dont remember where it is on the internet, but there was a study within the few years that showed basically that good summer performance means nothing, but struggling in summer league has literally always meant the player will be bad in the NBA. This was offered as evidence that, for example, Dragan Bender was prob gonna be a bad player since he was horrendous last year.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,504
Maybe there was more than one guy in the draft who can score on three levels.

Both Tatum and Fultz did some very impressive things out there. One hng about Fultz - he can't be guarded by small point guards.

And as the announcers noted, Tatum was being guared by Luwawu-Cabarrot, a legit NBA defender.
Regardless, Tatum was awesome. I might be wrong about the footwork. Especially since he's 6'8 showing up and unders from about 12 feet out. That double pivot on that move was legit.
You mean the average 19 year old can't do this?

 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,850
Also of note, he used his left hand to drive and finish on the very first highlight in that video.
 

Sprowl

mikey lowell of the sandbox
Dope
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2006
34,452
Haiku
Are there any analyses out there to suggest whether any particular summer league stats have any predictive value? I suspect in general the answer is "not much", or at best they require some heavy recalibration, but curious whether there's anything worth watching for.
Terry Rozier weeps a silent tear.
 

bowiac

Caveat: I know nothing about what I speak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
12,945
New York, NY
Are there any analyses out there to suggest whether any particular summer league stats have any predictive value? I suspect in general the answer is "not much", or at best they require some heavy recalibration, but curious whether there's anything worth watching for.
I have done work on this and yeah, there is useful data there. Basically watch for production which isn't related to role: blocks and rebounds for guards, assists and turnovers for bigs and wings. Steals are important for everyone.

By contrast, "in position" stats are not that helpful in my research. Point guard assists are not meaningfully predictive other than that you are a point guard. Big man rebounds likewise.

I haven't done much work with shooting percentages, but I'd expect they're about as meaningful as a 5 game sample is normally (not very).
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
10,104
Love how Jaylen is wired:
Tatum's heroics helped him steal the spotlight Monday, but it was Brown who had maybe the most impressive outing. The Celtics had planned to pitch Brown on taking it easy this summer after a long rookie season that culminated with an elevated role in the Eastern Conference finals.

Instead, Brown stormed into Danny Ainge's office after the season and demanded to play in summer league. Brown wanted to use the summer to display the improvements in his game and show the rest of the league that he's ready to take a step forward this season.

Brown scored a game-high 29 points on 10-of-16 shooting. That's the most points he has scored in a game since high school -- which wasn't all that long ago for the second-year player who was drafted after one season at Cal.

Asked if he expects his minutes to be limited moving forward, Brown said he's at summer league to compete."No offense to Utah, but I don't want to do nothing else out here but play," said Brown. "I came here to play basketball."
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19805862/boston-celtics-jayson-tatum-outduels philadelphia-76ers-markelle-fultz-in summer-league-debut
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,504
I want to point out that Fultz did not look good, despite what the commentators were saying on TV. Its like we were watching different games.
Curious hat you mean about this. I mean there were definitely some holes is his game but he created his own shots; showed he could shoot over smaller defenders; made some good passes in transition, and, showed some finishing ability. He's not a finished product but he starts out from a good baseline.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,936
And had at least one terrific block. I thought he looked very good.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,472
Somewhere
Looking at the recap, Jaylen looks like a man among boys, which is what you'd expect from an NBA rotation player.

Not sure it's even worth giving him more Summer League run.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Looking at the recap, Jaylen looks like a man among boys, which is what you'd expect from an NBA rotation player.

Not sure it's even worth giving him more Summer League run.
It's good getting Tatum and Zizic time with a real live NBA player but yeah, Jaylen has far outgrown summer league......this is a very good thing for us.

I've always supported that a player makes the greatest growth over his first 12 months in the league. The Jaylen of today is a completely different player than the one we saw 12 months ago. Up next, Tatum and Zizic......can't wait to compare them in a year from where they are today.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
5,934
Cultural hub of the universe
Curious hat you mean about this. I mean there were definitely some holes is his game but he created his own shots; showed he could shoot over smaller defenders; made some good passes in transition, and, showed some finishing ability. He's not a finished product but he starts out from a good baseline.
I thought Fultz looked good as well. Defensively he had 3 blocks, but also got worked in isolation on Tatum a number of times. Offensively he had a stretch in the 3rd Quarter where he was looking dominant, but then faded in the 4th, missing a number of shots.

Nothing I saw made me wish we had him over Tatum though.
 

ColonelMustard

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 23, 2006
219
Looking at the recap, Jaylen looks like a man among boys, which is what you'd expect from an NBA rotation player.

Not sure it's even worth giving him more Summer League run.
A rotational player is good at one skill. A starting caliber good at 2. Jaylen showed great range from way beyond the 3, dribble penetration as a creative scorer, and fantastic help defense at the end; all marked improvement from his Summer league last year. Give the guy his props.

Nothing I saw made me wish we had him over Tatum though.
I thought Fultz looked good at times as well but in part due to the horrible guard defense. Tatum is on another level. The one step put in is a masterpiece and such a pretty stroke with the Ray Allen swish finish. He did this while he was covered fairly well. That's good thing because his precision game is not going to blow by anyone in the NBA. He took way too many long 2s and showed he needs to expand his NBA range (he only made 1 corner 3).
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
You can't really make anything out of summer league TO's either, so Jaylen's 7 doesn't mean much of anything.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,472
Somewhere
A rotational player is good at one skill. A starting caliber good at 2. Jaylen showed great range from way beyond the 3, dribble penetration as a creative scorer, and fantastic help defense at the end; all marked improvement from his Summer league last year. Give the guy his props.
I'm not denigrating Brown -- the fact remains that any decent rotation player in the league will dominate the summer and g-leagues. Brown was getting to the hoop with almost no resistance. That's good to see from a skills perspective but NBA teams will be much better positioned to prevent penetration.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,850
True, but NBA offenses will have much better spacing as well, giving him room.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,504
A rotational player is good at one skill. A starting caliber good at 2. Jaylen showed great range from way beyond the 3, dribble penetration as a creative scorer, and fantastic help defense at the end; all marked improvement from his Summer league last year. Give the guy his props.
Jaylen switched on to Fultz a lot and to my eyes was the best one-on-one defender against Fultz. I know that is not saying a lot (Jackson was lit up; I don't remember Allen being matched up against Fultz much; and Bird only played 4 minutes) but I thought he showed a lot of energy and will on defense.

You can't really make anything out of summer league TO's either, so Jaylen's 7 doesn't mean much of anything.
Jaylen definitely has to continue working on his ball handling. I'm glad they are looking for him to bring the ball up in transition.
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
10,104
Jaylen definitely has to continue working on his ball handling. I'm glad they are looking for him to bring the ball up in transition.
On the other hand, I thought Tatum's handle looked very good, both bringing the ball up/in transition, and driving in the half court. Something I couldn't get a sense of from the scouting clips before the draft but saw a bit of last night. Uses his length to control the ball well.