bowiac said:
I hope you know I was joking... I don't think anyone reasonably believes Olynyk has a ceiling much above role player.
Celtics SL and other Orlando/Vegas happenings 2014
- Thread starter HomeRunBaker
- Start date
I hope you know I was joking... I don't think anyone reasonably believes Olynyk has a ceiling much above role player.
zenter said:
I hope you know I was joking... I don't think anyone reasonably believes Olynyk has a ceiling much above role player.
Not sure exactly what you mean by "role player," but if he can continue to shoot over 40% from three (as he almost did after the ASB), he's going to be at least as valuable as, say, Josh McRoberts.
zenter said:
I hope you know I was joking... I don't think anyone reasonably believes Olynyk has a ceiling much above role player.
If scoring 20 and grabbing 10 is a role, then I agree
wade boggs chicken dinner said:
luckiestman said:
If Josh McRoberts is the comp, we're not talking 20/10. And I'm not sure McRoberts is a starting PF on any team
20/10 doesn't seem like a remotely reasonable expectation for Olynyk. Hell, his idol Dirk isn't even a 20/10 guy. I think we can all agree that he's not likely to reach Dirk levels.
Didn't McRoberts just sign for the MLE to be a backup in Miami?wade boggs chicken dinner said:
I basically don't know who Olynyk would need to be offensively to justify his defensive warts. Kevin Love?
Dude was lost out there last year on defense. He was such a rookie even though he is old. I'm really interested in Olynyk because of that weird late growth spurt
bowiac said:
How about Ryan Anderson? He is great at shooting the 3, not a great defender, putrid rim protector and awful rebounder but that 3 point shooting keeps him in the game. Olynyk wont be that type of 3pt shooter ever, but if he was good and then a better all around player then perhaps he has a shot
If anyone is interested, I ran into this entertaining if mostly brutal assessment of the C's summer league team. Here's a snippet:
Olynyk played hard right through the wire last year which of course is a credit to his maturity and commitment. The problem was that he "improved" when opponents were mailing in the first 42 minutes every night over the second half of the season. The game slowed down for Olynyk I'm suspecting because of the opponents lack of intensity. I don't expect him to be very good at the beginning of the season when teams are playing harder.
I didnt get to see the game but does anyone have any insight on Smart's poor shooting? I read something, not sure how reliable, that he was taking jumpers early in the shot clock that were ill-advised. Was that the case and were they wide open? Trying to gauge where he really is as an NBA shooter.
Assuming it's not nerves or flukes or anything like that, it could be a mechanical thing... The reports are that he and Rondo have similar wingspan and hand sizes.wutang112878 said:
From what I've read, having huge hands correlates to poor shot, typically. Put them at the end of monkey arms, and you have more mechanical wiggle room for a shot to go wrong. This may explain Olynyk's success: his smaller hands and shorter arms correlate to a better shot.
I have to watch some more tape on Smart to look at his mechanics then.
I'm not disagreeing with the issues Rondos hands and wingspan create for his shot, but his mechanics themselves dont help him whatsoever. He brings the ball down very far so the motion from the set to release is very long. I always thought if he held it a little higher and had more of a 'wrist flick' motion than 'long extended hook' type motion it would help his touch. When he shoots a mid-range pull-up I think his form is closer to the former wrist flick and he seems to be more effective at it, dont get me wrong he isnt Steve Nash, he is pretty bad but I swear this would help his shooting.
I'm not disagreeing with the issues Rondos hands and wingspan create for his shot, but his mechanics themselves dont help him whatsoever. He brings the ball down very far so the motion from the set to release is very long. I always thought if he held it a little higher and had more of a 'wrist flick' motion than 'long extended hook' type motion it would help his touch. When he shoots a mid-range pull-up I think his form is closer to the former wrist flick and he seems to be more effective at it, dont get me wrong he isnt Steve Nash, he is pretty bad but I swear this would help his shooting.
Here is a decent example of what I mean with Rondo, here he is at his starting position holding the ball very low:
Then here is the messiah of shooting form, Ray Allen in his starting position which is much, much higher:
Now here is Smart (and I'm not sure if this is consistently his starting position) who is sort of in between the 2 which is a good sign. However, he has to move the ball so its above his right shoulder instead of his head which is just putrid:
Then here is the messiah of shooting form, Ray Allen in his starting position which is much, much higher:
Now here is Smart (and I'm not sure if this is consistently his starting position) who is sort of in between the 2 which is a good sign. However, he has to move the ball so its above his right shoulder instead of his head which is just putrid:
I'm more concerned that they were completely outhustled and dominated in the paint than I am about Smart's shooting form. Iverson was hopelessly bad and Olynyck was a milquetoast.
This team is going to be bad. I wouldn't be concerned with porr performances because, well, there are going to be plenty of those during the year.
Brickowski said:
Olynyk
Just think of it this way, its "Oly" like Ollie from Hoosiers with a different spelling and then "NYK" like the NewYork Knicks
Olynyk
O
L
Y
N
Y
K
This has to be like the 30th time you havent spelled this correctly and Olynyk puts in enough effort that he at least deserves the respect to have his name spelled correctly.
I would seriously watch a sitcom that starred Wutang and Brick. You guys are the best, thank you both for all that you bring to this forum. It would be dead without you.
Brickowski said:
Why are you so worried about a massive come from ahead loss in the Summer league, exactly? Olynyk was fine and Iverson probably isn't a very good player, this is exhibition basketball, this happens.
For what it's worth, I thought Nerlens Noel looked fantastic the other day. There's the makings of quite a player there, I think.
wutang112878 said:
There was some stuff on his shooting mechanics in his draft thread. I think the two main issues are (i) he sometimes dips the ball after he catches making his release slower, and (ii) his footwork is inconsistent, leading to fading.
Plus he takes a lot of bad shots. But overall, it seems like his jump shot should be fixable with some coaching and repetition.
These are all the reasons why I wasn't a fan of him being a Top-6 pick. His mechanics are terrible and were terrible in college with so much wasted motion and a hitch. Combine this with the terrible shot selection he displayed in college none of this should be surprising. It's who Smart is at this stage of his career. He's got a ton of work to do before he's a reliable NBA player.wutang112878 said:
There isn't a player in this draft class who hasn't got a ton of work to do to become a reliable NBA player-- and it was a strong draft.
As for the loss, lack of effort always bothers me. They didn't lose to superior talent or better coaching. They lost because for three quarters they stood around and watched the D-league players on the other team pound the glass. Plus they were late on just about every defensive rotation. Moser was the biggest culprit, but there were others, including Marcus Smart.
Defense doesn't require talent. It just requires effort.
As for the loss, lack of effort always bothers me. They didn't lose to superior talent or better coaching. They lost because for three quarters they stood around and watched the D-league players on the other team pound the glass. Plus they were late on just about every defensive rotation. Moser was the biggest culprit, but there were others, including Marcus Smart.
Defense doesn't require talent. It just requires effort.
HomeRun, I cant emphasize this enough:
The players either need a lot of work, or they arent as attractive prospects because they are so close to their ceiling. Wiggins has the defense covered but does not have an NBA offensive game and he was #1!!! Parker is the opposite and he was #2!!! Embiid sans injury probably would have gone higher and he flashed a lot in college but had problems staying on the court because of foul trouble which really speaks to how inexperienced he really is. Gordon has offensive problems and Exum cant shoot and is probably more inexperienced than his tape indicates considering the level of competition he was playing against. And that leads us to Smart. The major gaping hole in his game is really something we can say about every single guy ahead of him, this is just how guys come into the NBA.
Brickowski said:
The players either need a lot of work, or they arent as attractive prospects because they are so close to their ceiling. Wiggins has the defense covered but does not have an NBA offensive game and he was #1!!! Parker is the opposite and he was #2!!! Embiid sans injury probably would have gone higher and he flashed a lot in college but had problems staying on the court because of foul trouble which really speaks to how inexperienced he really is. Gordon has offensive problems and Exum cant shoot and is probably more inexperienced than his tape indicates considering the level of competition he was playing against. And that leads us to Smart. The major gaping hole in his game is really something we can say about every single guy ahead of him, this is just how guys come into the NBA.
Wiggins, Parker and Exum all have the offensive foundation in their shooting mechanics and offensive game to get there though. Smart has zero foundation as his mechanics are atrocious. I strongly disagree Wiggins doesn't have an offensive game. He sliced through packed in zone getting to the line at will last year.....he won't have to worry about zones designed to stop him from penetrating at the next level.wutang112878 said:
HomeRunBaker said:
Wiggins attempted 7.9 FTs per 40 minutes last year. Smart was at 9.9/40 last year and 7.8/40 his freshman year. If you're going to give Wiggins credit for getting to the line, you've got to give it to Smart too.
I'll add, Smart took a ton of free throws in college as result of this, and made them at a nice clip (75%). For the Rondo shooting motion comparisons, there was always a pretty strong hint that he wouldn't be able to shoot in the NBA - Rondo was a 577 FT% shooter in college. This is also why I'm a bit worried about Gordon's future perimeter game.DannyDarwinism said:
Smart was a better college player than anyone taken ahead of him except Jabari. Everyone needs to improve to be a good pro.
They are as bad as you can imagine and nearly impossible to shoot with any consistency due to all the wasted motion as he is never square and compact. It's everything wrong with a perimeter shot.swingin val said:
When the pass is delivered perfectly into his shooting slot he immediately takes the ball down to his knees to wind up while bringing it across his body as he fades to the left. Yes, it's atrocious.
Nice piece by fellow Dayton alum Steve Bulpett in the Herald on Devin Oliver:
http://bostonherald.com/sports/celtics_nba/boston_celtics/2014/07/devin_oliver_hopes_to_learn_to_be_a_pro
(That's DMO in my avatar, BTW)
http://bostonherald.com/sports/celtics_nba/boston_celtics/2014/07/devin_oliver_hopes_to_learn_to_be_a_pro
(That's DMO in my avatar, BTW)
The Celtics' defense in the paint is much improved this evening. All of Detroit's offense has been from 3 pt range.
Just switched to NBA TV and there was a Celtic player being pulled off the floor bandaged on top of a stretcher.
It didn't look that serious but you never know. BTW I thought it was a flagrant 1, but it wasn't called.
On Smart, he has put aside any fear I have that he can run the point. Shooting will be the key for him as the rest of the game is pretty much there
I never saw a team whose offense was so reliant on 3 point shooting as Detroit's Summer league team. It was bombs away for four quarters.
luckiestman said:
One thing I noticed about Smart - he comes up with more loose balls than anyone else on the court. His hands must be amazingly quick.
He also has the habit of chucking up 1 or 2 really atrocious 3Pers early in the shot clock every half I hope he gets broken of this soon.
Brickowski said:
Seriously?
The Pistons took 27 three pointers yesterday. The 2002-2003 Celtics averaged nearly that amount per game (26.3). And the Celtics were pretty bad at shooting them as well, and they took nearly 500 more than the next closest team.
People look back fondly on those teams because they were the first decent squads in a decade, but those Walker/O'Brien teams were absolutely maddening to watch, and would have been a sub-.500 team in the Western Conference. I recall SoSH losing their minds when Ainge broke up that powerhouse squad, too.
Brickowski said:
You must not have watched the 2002/2003 Celtics, unfortunately I had that traumatic experience and that style of basketball is burned into my memory. Remember this is before the 3 became as popular as it is today, they took 2,155 3s, the league average was 1,204 and the Dallas Mavericks were 2nd that year with 1,668, and the Celts were 29th in the league in 2pt attempts. Antoine and Pierce not only had the green light to take 3s at any time, but they had the green like to take step-back, yes step-back, 3s at any time.
mt8thsw9th said:
Seriously?
The Pistons took 27 three pointers yesterday. The 2002-2003 Celtics averaged nearly that amount per game (26.3). And the Celtics were pretty bad at shooting them as well, and they took nearly 500 more than the next closest team.
People look back fondly on those teams because they were the first decent squads in a decade, but those Walker/O'Brien teams were absolutely maddening to watch, and would have been a sub-.500 team in the Western Conference. I recall SoSH losing their minds when Ainge broke up that powerhouse squad, too.
My hatred of the 2002/2003 Celtics is so bad that I had to get my last post above off my chest before I even scrolled down to read yours
wutang112878 said:
And yet, the 2,155 attempts would not have lead the league last year. HOU had 2179.
One could argue that the Cs were simply ahead of their time. Comparatively, I would have rather watched the 2002/03 Cs than the teams that preceded Jim O'Brien's arrival.
Just to chime in on Smart's shot, the other thing Rondo does/ did is palm the ball on his shots. He's partly fixed that as well. Rondo has also improved his elevation as pointed out.
Wow, that was a really entertaining read. Thanks for posting that.
Don Buddin's GS said:
Wow, that was a really entertaining read. Thanks for posting that.
This is what happens when your league expands from 23 12-man rosters from 20 years ago to 30 15-man rosters. That's an additional 174 players on NBA rosters who weren't there not too long ago.Brickowski said:
wade boggs chicken dinner said:
This is true, # of attempts <> reliance, but taking 3s was the only way the Celtics could score, look at the 2pt FG% for the top 10 teams in 3pt attempts last year:
Houston Rockets : 52.9%
Atlanta Hawks : 50.2%
Portland Trail Blazers : 48.1%
Phoenix Suns : 50.3%
New York Knicks : 48.2%
Golden State Warriors : 49.6%
Los Angeles Lakers : 47.8%
Los Angeles Clippers : 52.5%
Denver Nuggets : 48.1%
Brooklyn Nets : 49.7%
The 2002/2003 Celtics: 45.0% Thats putrid, so taking the 3s was really out of necessity
You are correct, there is an argument to be made that bombs away was better than Success is a Choice, but anything was going to be better than Ricky P, anything
wutang112878 said:
I've never hated a successful Celtics run, even a modest one like the Obie runs. But Obieball was just aesthetically awful basketball. It's one of the reasons why I'm pretty effin' meh about the Rockets, although they are much better built for that style of play.
Devizier said:
You said it better than I did, this is what I hated, the style of play not the team.
Today's game is the one where they give minutes to the guys who may be looking for jobs in Europe. No O-l-y-n-y-k.
Let me add that if you think Smart can't shoot, take a look at Aaron Gordon. He would have difficulty throwing a wad a paper into a wastebasket from 3 feet away.
Let me add that if you think Smart can't shoot, take a look at Aaron Gordon. He would have difficulty throwing a wad a paper into a wastebasket from 3 feet away.
I think that was part of the reasoning Ainge traded Antoine for Lafrentz. It's like, "fine, if you want everyone chucking up threes, here's at least a big that is good at it". That type of play is less frustrating when you are actually better than decent at shooting threes. Unfortunately Lafrentz fell apart, but on the plus side O'Brien threw a temper tantrum and left.
And it's kind of funny looking at that trade. The Celtics got a first out of it (Delonte West), Jiri Welsch (who they traded for a 1st rounder, and then swapped that pick for Rondo), and Chris Mills (who they would swap with Mike James for the 1st rounder that was Tony Allen). Lafrentz was traded for Ratliff and Telfair, and Ratliff was the expiring contract included in the Garnett deal (which Telfair was also a part of). It's kind of amazing that Ainge was able to take Wallace's mess and turn it into a good six year run. Oh, and he left that run with perhaps 10 first rounders in the next four drafts (or to use in trades). However, up until the Garnett trade, the general consensus here was Ainge sucked, was lucky with his draft picks, and was aimlessly trading players and broke up that awesome team.
And it's kind of funny looking at that trade. The Celtics got a first out of it (Delonte West), Jiri Welsch (who they traded for a 1st rounder, and then swapped that pick for Rondo), and Chris Mills (who they would swap with Mike James for the 1st rounder that was Tony Allen). Lafrentz was traded for Ratliff and Telfair, and Ratliff was the expiring contract included in the Garnett deal (which Telfair was also a part of). It's kind of amazing that Ainge was able to take Wallace's mess and turn it into a good six year run. Oh, and he left that run with perhaps 10 first rounders in the next four drafts (or to use in trades). However, up until the Garnett trade, the general consensus here was Ainge sucked, was lucky with his draft picks, and was aimlessly trading players and broke up that awesome team.