Celtics Offseason Primer

JM3

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I’m kind of wondering if Brogdon will get the minutes we envisioned for a wing acquisition. Barring injuries, the 96 frontcourt minutes will be split among Horford/TL/Grant/Gallinari and the other 144 between Tatum/Brown/Smart/White/Brogdon.
Yeah, Brogdon is 6'5 with a 6'10 1/2 wingspan (& an 8'2 standing reach for our standing reach stans). He can competently cover all but the largest wings.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah, Brogdon is 6'5 with a 6'10 1/2 wingspan (& an 8'2 standing reach for our standing reach stans). He can competently cover all but the largest wings.
I read 8'6 standing reach from his predraft, which would make sense given that height+wingspan. He plays big.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I read 8'6 standing reach from his predraft, which would make sense given that height+wingspan. He plays big.
It's 8'2. NBA combine results anyway. Which would be pre draft.

He must have some shoulders on him.

edit: Yeah, he's a shoulder guy.
 

JM3

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Standing reach is much more important for guys who...stand & reach. For guards/smaller wings their ability to get into passing lanes & make dribbling hard is more important imo.
 

lovegtm

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It's 8'2. NBA combine results anyway. Which would be pre draft.

He must have some shoulders on him.

edit: Yeah, he's a shoulder guy.
Ah thanks. Looks we need standardized standing reach/wingspan measurements asap :)

Standing reach is much more important for guys who...stand & reach. For guards/smaller wings their ability to get into passing lanes & make dribbling hard is more important imo.
True, although standing reach is a big factor in how guards hold up against switches and contesting shots. If PP were a few inches arm-taller, he'd be far less of a liability on defense.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Standing reach is much more important for guys who...stand & reach. For guards/smaller wings their ability to get into passing lanes & make dribbling hard is more important imo.
I don't disagree. I was just confirming it's 8'2. With that said, an 8'2 standing reach for a player who is 6'5 is awful. Against guards, that's not really an issue. It could be against some of the lengthier wings in the league. He has a weird build, honestly.

People were worried about JD Davison who is 6'0. His standing reach is 8'3.5. His wingspan is 6'6. For a guard (especially PG), Brogdon's 6'10.5 wingspan is ridiculous and an 8'2 standing reach is perfectly fine.

Another guy with similar height would be Romeo Langford. 6'4, 6'11 wingspan, 8'8 standing reach. He's kind of a freak though. Smart is 6'3, 6'9 and 8'3.25. HIs Measurements are kind of close to Smart's.

Honestly, I can't remember seeing a player with such a small difference in Height and Standing reach. 19 inches?
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Maybe they could use the TPE to facilitate a multi-team trade with the end result being they get nothing in return but a reset TPE.
 

Burkharts Uppercut

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Yep I would guess that's the only way the TPE gets used
Can someone explain how this scenario would work where you are only left with a new TPE? I thought to generate a new TPE, you need to send salary out to another team with salary cap space or another tpe.
 

Cellar-Door

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Can someone explain how this scenario would work where you are only left with a new TPE? I thought to generate a new TPE, you need to send salary out to another team with salary cap space or another tpe.
You take in one of the guys in a multi-team trade then shuffle him to someone else... Everyone gets TPEs for their portions

Edit... So say you are the Heat.. You need to send out Robinson to match cap... By routing him through BOS you and Boston get 16.9M TPEs and the team getting him gets a TPE likely on one or more of the the players they send to the Heat
 

Burkharts Uppercut

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And then you have take back salary or the receiving team needs cap space, in which case why is the Cs TPE involved? Is there a real world example of a team who used a TPE to only generate a new TPE?
 

Cellar-Door

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And then you have take back salary or the receiving team needs cap space, in which case why is the Cs TPE involved? Is there a real world example of a team who used a TPE to only generate a new TPE?
I'll look for times it was done later, but this TPE primer helps explain why it can work, which is that trades don't have to be structured and ordered the same by both sides, the rules are applied to each teams outgoings separately. It can get ridiculous at times

https://cbabreakdown.com/salary-cap-exceptions
 

Burkharts Uppercut

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I'll look for times it was done later, but this TPE primer helps explain why it can work, which is that trades don't have to be structured and ordered the same by both sides, the rules are applied to each teams outgoings separately. It can get ridiculous at times

https://cbabreakdown.com/salary-cap-exceptions
Thanks! Just trying to wrap my head around it. The cap rules are mind throbbing at times.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think we keep Grant, he's not a 1 to 1 Horford replacement, but I'd guess he's long term in the plans as a stretch big, given we have long term solutipns for PG, SG, C and Tatum. Trading one of the few 4s on the roster doesn't make sense.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Grant is also valuable not just on the court since he will be extended for a very movable mid-range contract.
 

lovegtm

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The Celtics have played Milwaukee 3 of the last 5 postseasons, and it would have been 4/5 if not for MIL's bubble loss to the Heat.

The road to the Finals may go through Giannis every year for awhile, and until it doesn't, Grant has a fair amount of value to the Celtics specifically.
 

HomeRunBaker

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So with Danilo and Brogdon in the fold, the things that the roster still lacks are a 3rd string big man (a 2nd string big man because TL is always getting injured and Al Horford is 36 years old) and a defensive minded wing. Thomas Bryant fits the role of the first need if he decides to join us but as far as I understand we basically only have league minimum left to offer?

Is there anyone out there that fits the 2nd need? One of the bigger problems in the Finals I thought was JT and JB having to expend A LOT of energy on defense, which hurt their ability to produce points on the other end.
Sure it would be nice to have a full playof ready roster at the start of camp but at the end of the day with this roster we’d be able to get away with someone like a Kornet, a less than replacement level player, until the deadline when other options become available. We can also play small at times with that second unit by using Gallo at the 5 for short spurts.
 
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mikeford

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Sure it would be nice to have a full playof ready roster at the start of camp but at the end of the day with this roster we’d be able to get away with someone like a Kornet, a less than replacement level player, until the deadline when other options become available. We can also play small at times with that second unit by using Gallo at the 5 for short spurts.
Ehhhh

Under normal circumstances I might agree but that 3rd big spot feels really important given Horford's age and TL's injury history. Pretty good bet that person is going to be in line for big minutes during points in the regular season. If we don't wanna be on the road for Game 7 against Miami, we probably need someone who's not Luke Kornet there.
 

benhogan

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Ehhhh

Under normal circumstances I might agree but that 3rd big spot feels really important given Horford's age and TL's injury history. Pretty good bet that person is going to be in line for big minutes during points in the regular season. If we don't wanna be on the road for Game 7 against Miami, we probably need someone who's not Luke Kornet there.
If Thomas Bryant goes elsewhere, they have ~3 months until training camp.

By far the easiest job Brad will have is to find a 3rd string BIG better than Luke Kornet for the regular season.
 

sezwho

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Ehhhh

Under normal circumstances I might agree but that 3rd big spot feels really important given Horford's age and TL's injury history. Pretty good bet that person is going to be in line for big minutes during points in the regular season. If we don't wanna be on the road for Game 7 against Miami, we probably need someone who's not Luke Kornet there.
Whomever this new person is, even if the Cs abandon 2bigz completely, they will need to be capable of playing 20-30min likely for extended runs.

I’m less sanguine this person leaps into the boat, but go Brad!

I don’t think we dip into future draft capital, and lord knows Brads a magician, but if I’m Grant, White or PP I’m renting not buying while this spot remains unsettled.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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luckiestman

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Random, but it’s hard to believe it’s the 5th anniversary of Hayward Watch.
I remember being on the beach and it was so bright I had to keep going in the shade cast by my beach chair to follow the story.
 

128

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Random, but it’s hard to believe it’s the 5th anniversary of Hayward Watch.
I was in Wales and woke up to a text from my son saying Hayward was Boston-bound. Never would I have imagined how horribly wrong things would go for him as a Celtic, through no fault of Hayward's.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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When, if ever, will Madar be able to contribute anything? Do we even still have his rights?
Probably never and yes.

There's a chance he becomes a 3 point specialist, I guess. Or if the team has like 4 empty roster spots due to trades.
 

lexrageorge

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When, if ever, will Madar be able to contribute anything? Do we even still have his rights?
The Celtics have Madar's rights until one year after he leaves his professional non-NBA team, and there is no real penalty to the team to continue to hold his rights. Realistically, teams don't usually hold those rights for longer than 3 or 4 years in the case of a draft-and-stash.

47th overall picks usually don't amount to much of anything, so any contribution from Madar would be pure upside. Note also that he has yet to celebrate his 22nd birthday.
 

NomarsFool

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With Kyrie and Hayward I was also salivating over the lottery picks that would eventually become Langford and Nesmith. What a disappointment all around.
 

BigSoxFan

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With Kyrie and Hayward I was also salivating over the lottery picks that would eventually become Langford and Nesmith. What a disappointment all around.
It really is remarkable how poorly things turned out. Hayward snaps his leg. Kyrie completely flakes out after initially pledging allegiance.

I was literally in a Japanese natural spring bath outside Tokyo when Hayward got hurt. Was all relaxed and then came back to a million texts of “OMG Hayward”. In my head, I was like ah crap, he sprained his knee or something. And then I watched the play and nearly threw up, both for the physical pain of the injury and also knowing what it would mean.
 

bosockboy

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Amazing how well we have pivoted out of Hayward/Irving, that kind of luck can ruin you for a decade. Makes you feel not quite as bad about the Finals loss.
 

BigSoxFan

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Amazing how well we have pivoted out of Hayward/Irving, that kind of luck can ruin you for a decade. Makes you feel not quite as bad about the Finals loss.
Yup. Big thing is that is almost certainly accelerated the Jays’ ascension to stardom. Would certainly be interesting to see that alternate universe where Hayward doesn’t get seriously hurt and Kyrie gives this team 3-4 elite years before flaking out.

Despite that horrible luck (including the bad lotto luck), we’re still sitting here with a top 2-3 team in the league based on talent. Would be a shame if they don’t ever get over the hump. I want it so badly for Brad, a guy who’s so talented and who has gotten so close for the past decade at the collegiate and NBA levels.
 

lexrageorge

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With Kyrie and Hayward I was also salivating over the lottery picks that would eventually become Langford and Nesmith. What a disappointment all around.
The Memphis pick always had a fairly high variance in expected outcome, especially with all the various protections associated with it; IIRC, there was always the possibility of it never conveying and becoming a pair of second rounders. Celtics did get somewhat unlucky that the Grizzlies won the Ja sweepstakes the year before.

I will be forever pissed at the Sacramento Kings for unexpectedly having their best season in over 10 years when the C's held their pick. There is a definitive line in player outcomes from that draft that can clearly be drawn between picks 13 and 14.
 

Cesar Crespo

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The C's were also incredibly lucky with the Nets picks so can't be too disappointed. That's probably why everyone was super excited about the other 2 picks being higher, though.
 

BigSoxFan

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The C's were also incredibly lucky with the Nets picks so can't be too disappointed. That's probably why everyone was super excited about the other 2 picks being higher, though.
Yeah, we were clearly drunk on our Nets success. Still is kind of bad luck that Sac pick ended up so mediocre. Play it out 100 times and we probably have better results in a majority of scenarios.

But we just got Brogdon for basically free so I’m good.
 

bosockboy

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Hayward/Irving was the culmination of 30+ years of horrific luck, starting with Bias, then Lewis, the Tim Duncan ping pong ball loss, KG blowing a tire in Utah and Perkins in 2010 Game 6. Zooming out it’s hard to believe that stretch, outside of the 2008 title.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The C's were also incredibly lucky with the Nets picks so can't be too disappointed. That's probably why everyone was super excited about the other 2 picks being higher, though.
The Sacramento (Langford) pick was basically a freebie, if one believes (as I do) that the only reason the deal was made is because Tatum was Ainge's guy all along and Ainge would hae still drafted him had he not made the deal.
 

JM3

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Note also that he has yet to celebrate his 22nd birthday.
Some day I want to see someone use this expression when the person has actually already turned that age & just hasn't had their party, yet.
 

128

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The Celtics have Madar's rights until one year after he leaves his professional non-NBA team, and there is no real penalty to the team to continue to hold his rights. Realistically, teams don't usually hold those rights for longer than 3 or 4 years in the case of a draft-and-stash.

47th overall picks usually don't amount to much of anything, so any contribution from Madar would be pure upside. Note also that he has yet to celebrate his 22nd birthday.
Just checked the roster for Israel's national team, and Madar is the youngest player. I can see why he'd choose to skip summer league, especially if he's not hoping to come over in 2022-23. The FIBA World Cup is a big deal outside the U.S.
 

billy ashley

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Yeah, Madar didn't have that great of a season statistically and he's still small, regardless of his age.

He's a fun guy to follow up but I can't imagine that he's any part of the future plans for the Celtics. If he makes a leap could he force that? Sure. But he's behind JD Davison and Juhann Begarin in terms of likelihood of playing meaningful minutes for the Celtics.
 

BigSoxFan

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Just checked the roster for Israel's national team, and Madar is the youngest player. I can see why he'd choose to skip summer league, especially if he's not hoping to come over in 2022-23. The FIBA World Cup is a big deal outside the U.S.
Similarly, I didn’t realize how young Begarin is. He won’t even be 20 until August. Both guys clearly need more time abroad and it’s too bad we can’t merge the two of them. Madar has the offensive skills that Begarin is lacking but doesn’t have the athleticism or defense. Begarin is the complete opposite. He is an NBA level athlete who struggles shooting the ball.

Will be interesting to see if either can overcome their limitations to make it to Boston. Odds are neither will but would be a nice story if one did.
 

Cellar-Door

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The Celtics have Madar's rights until one year after he leaves his professional non-NBA team, and there is no real penalty to the team to continue to hold his rights. Realistically, teams don't usually hold those rights for longer than 3 or 4 years in the case of a draft-and-stash.

47th overall picks usually don't amount to much of anything, so any contribution from Madar would be pure upside. Note also that he has yet to celebrate his 22nd birthday.
A lot of guys have rights held for a long time, the Hawks still own the rights to Augusto Binelli who they took in 1986. Celtics oldest rights are Andrei Fetisov from 1994
 

mcpickl

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The Memphis pick always had a fairly high variance in expected outcome, especially with all the various protections associated with it; IIRC, there was always the possibility of it never conveying and becoming a pair of second rounders. Celtics did get somewhat unlucky that the Grizzlies won the Ja sweepstakes the year before.

I will be forever pissed at the Sacramento Kings for unexpectedly having their best season in over 10 years when the C's held their pick. There is a definitive line in player outcomes from that draft that can clearly be drawn between picks 13 and 14.
The Memphis pick would've been unprotected the following season if it didn't convey when they picked Nesmith(was top 6 protected then)

I think about this pick way too much. As you said, Memphis hitting Ja was really unlucky for Boston.

If they don't jump in lottery that year, Boston picks in the 9-10 range, and maybe takes Herro(or PJ Washington, Cam Johnson)
If they jump to any other top 4 spot than 2nd that year, the 2020 pick is likely better and maybe they get Haliburton.
If they stunk enough that their pick is in the top 6 and it rolls over to unprotected in 2021, could've been in a dream scenario picking up high in that draft.

Very unlucky that pick ended up way down near the bottom of expected outcomes.
 

TripleOT

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With the Romeo pick in 2019, there was a three way tie for picks 12-14. Charlotte won the tiebreaker, and Miami came in second. Boston beat the Heat twice, late in the season. Lots of things went against the Celtics regarding those two picks that ended up being Romeo and Nesmith.

Side note: Boston probably would’ve kept the pic that became Desmond Bane if they went with a big in one of those spots at 14, like Isaiah Stewart instead of Nesmith. Ainge gambled on the upsides of two wings with a tiny amount of college success, and it didn’t pay off.