DWade was shooting .325 on 3P shots before the game and he took five of them. I think the Cs were happy to see him launch them. They just happened to go in.How can you let the ancient Dwayne Wade score like that?
DWade was shooting .325 on 3P shots before the game and he took five of them. I think the Cs were happy to see him launch them. They just happened to go in.How can you let the ancient Dwayne Wade score like that?
It's the two pointers he made when Hayward was guarding him that bothered me. The Celtics were trying to get back in the game--at one point they had cut the lead to 10-- but they couldn't get stops.DWade was shooting .325 on 3P shots before the game and he took five of them. I think the Cs were happy to see him launch them. They just happened to go in.
I also said that Jaylen Brown should go to the G League prior to last season, so not going to claim any Nostradomus points.This is 100% correct.
ALSO lovegtm, dejesus and HRB were all on record calling this a scheduled loss yesterday prior to tip-off. So kudos to them, hopefully, they made their bookies a little poorer.
Good point by RR, Brad could have and should have played it differently with the rotations. The entire roster was available except for Baynes (but Brad has 4 other BIGs at his disposal in Al, Theis, Yabu, TL). Last night was the perfect night to give Al Horford and Gordon Hayward a scheduled rest. Heck, I would have been fine with MaMo (recently banged up) getting the night off also. One of the Celtics strengths (some call it a weakness) is the high-end talent throughout the roster. I'd like to see more scheduled rest days for Horford/Hayward. Guys like Jaylen, Rozier, Theis, TL, Baynes, Semi, Yabu, Wannamaker would see a bump in minutes/role during back-to-backs. This should keep up their engagement and may motivate them to play extra hard in those "scheduled loss" games. One of Brad's greatest strengths is taking underdog teams and getting them to play "up".
I'm not bothered about the loss, I just think they missed an opportunity to play to the teams' strength.
Hayward and Horford have been consistently bad in back-to-backs this season. We have 3 Centers that have played more then adequately recently. Not only are the stats for Al and Gordon awful in those few games, but the eye test showed players a step slow on both sides of the floor.I cannot really blame Brad for playing Hayward. He has had a string of really strong games recently, and if he's not in any pain, he probably should play.
Maybe Horford doesn't play if Baynes was healthy. But maybe Brad figured it's best to have the deeper roster available against the current #6 seed and use it to steal a win under tough circumstances on the road.
If last night doesn't convince him to sit Horford on day 2, nothing will. I love the man, but he played like someone's dad.Hayward and Horford have been consistently bad in back-to-backs this season. We have 3 Centers that have played more then adequately recently. Not only are the stats for Al and Gordon awful in those few games, but the eye test showed players a step slow on both sides of the floor.
Veteran All-Stars coming off a major injury (GH) or presently banged up (AH) have nothing to prove and will not be asked to play under these circumstances in the playoffs. What's the point when so many good players on the Celtics bench are thirsting for minutes?
Pop popularized the scheduled rest days for his stars, Brad would be wise to adopt that strategy.
Ha, I also felt bad for Al.If last night doesn't convince him to sit Horford on day 2, nothing will. I love the man, but he played like someone's dad.
Yes absolutely and the same with the Brooklyn win. Any one individual regular season game should be taken with a grain of salt anyway but even more so when one team has an inherent schedule/rest advantage.If that makes it a schedule loss, then doesn't it also make the 'big win' a schedule win? Indiana was on the second night of a back-to back and playing their fourth straight road game.
I'd also argue that a team with as much depth as the Celtics should have fewer "schedule losses" than most teams. We can legitimately go 10-12 deep on any given night when fully healthy and Brad does a good job of managing minutes. Additionally, we're a young team with guys looking to prove themselves and "get theirs". If I'm Terry Rozier and Jaylen Brown, these are the games I'm looking forward to most because some of the starters may be dragging a little bit more. Unfortunately, they both sucked ass last night. If the Celtics want to avoid a hellish first round matchup, this team is going to need to gut out wins in the coming weeks that they're not "supposed" to win.I'll accept the "schedule loss" argument for last night, but here's my issue, and I posted it late in the game thread.
The Celtics can't beat good teams on the road. Period. If they're now going to lose to bad teams on the road because of scheduling, then where does that leave them? They're a team that can only win on the road when they play crappy teams, and they get their beauty sleep? They haven't beaten a team this year that has a record above .500 right now since the Thunder in the 5th game of the season, and the Thunder were 0-4 at that point.
That's what's concerning me. The flipside of that, as someone else mentioned, is that everyone was so happy about their beatdown of Indiana the other night, but nobody mentioned it was a road B2B for Indiana, playing without Myles Turner? That was a schedule loss for them, but in their case, at least it was against a good team. Miami blows.
FTR, if I'm not mistaken, the Celtics were 7-3 last year on road B2B's. They are 2-5 so far this season. Did traveling get harder in the offseason, or maybe cities got further away? Maybe they need a new plane, like the Patriots?
Whatever it is, there is reason to be concerned. It's nice watching them beat up on the dregs or play the victor to another team's schedule loss, and I fully expect them to lay the wood to Orlando tomorrow, and hopefully do the same against Brooklyn. But, I'm not going to keep letting those wins convince me they've figured it out, only to see them lay an egg against a good team or against a bad one because, schedule loss.
GH needed to play as he needs to work through these back to backs. Even if he had a crummy game, I would imagine it's good for his progressionI cannot really blame Brad for playing Hayward. He has had a string of really strong games recently, and if he's not in any pain, he probably should play.
Maybe Horford doesn't play if Baynes was healthy. But maybe Brad figured it's best to have the deeper roster available against the current #6 seed and use it to steal a win under tough circumstances on the road.
Don't forget that we have to not just beat crappy teams but destroy them by 15+.Seems like we’re saying that any loss shows some huge problem. Lose to good team—well we can’t beat teams we need to beat in postseason. Lose to bad team—no focus. Lost on 2nd night of b2b—we are too deep for this.
We seem set up to complain in some way unless we win out.
This is silly. So now showing disappointment in a single game performance is equivalent to complaining? People are merely discussing what they watched and last night it wasn’t pretty. If that’s somehow frowned upon because it includes some negative commentary, then what exactly is the point of this message board?Seems like we’re saying that any loss shows some huge problem. Lose to good team—well we can’t beat teams we need to beat in postseason. Lose to bad team—no focus. Lost on 2nd night of b2b—we are too deep for this.
We seem set up to complain in some way unless we win out.
Sometimes (often?) boring and simple explanations are correct. This is particularly true in execution-oriented environments like professional sports.This is silly. So now showing disappointment in a single game performance is equivalent to complaining? People are merely discussing what they watched and last night it wasn’t pretty. If that’s somehow frowned upon because it includes some negative commentary, then what exactly is the point of this message board?
Calling something a “schedule loss” and then moving on is just boring and overly-simplistic to me. Nobody is jumping off the ship because of a January regular season loss.
And sometimes there are multiple relevant topics to discuss when evaluating a performance. If the Celtics had lost a close one last night because Kyrie or Tatum started playing hero ball and bricked a bunch of shots down the stretch, would it have been a “schedule loss”?Sometimes (often?) boring and simple explanations are correct. This is particularly true in execution-oriented environments like professional sports.
Ok, so I'll give a simple/boring answer on why they can't beat good teams on the road.Sometimes (often?) boring and simple explanations are correct. This is particularly true in execution-oriented environments like professional sports.
I think most humans would admit that fatigue results in sub optimal decision making and execution. I am not saying the Cs struggles are not a result of some larger issue but "selfish" basketball can absolutely be a function of tired legs and road weary brains.I just hope the guys on the team and coaching staff aren't making the same kinds of excuses as the posters here. If so, the Celtics won't win another back-to-back all year.
Fatigue is not an excuse for selfish basketball.
The Warriors, prohibitive favorites to win the title, are two games better than the Celtics and have a lower net rating. There’s too much talent in this league right for a single team to run away with a conference the way you’re expecting the Celtics to.I just hope the guys on the team and coaching staff aren't making the same kinds of excuses as the posters here. If so, the Celtics won't win another back-to-back all year.
Fatigue is not an excuse for selfish basketball.
Everybody here knows that I've been extremely hard on Brad and the team, particularly in game threads. A lot of people were saying early in the year that it was just that shots weren't falling, but it was very clear at that time that that was an excuse for not moving the ball, and letting bad luck/execution on offense carry over to the defensive end. A few quality wins when Kyrie was balling and/or shots DID fall (Milwaukee, OKC, Toronto) were masking fundamental flaws.I just hope the guys on the team and coaching staff aren't making the same kinds of excuses as the posters here. If so, the Celtics won't win another back-to-back all year.
Fatigue is not an excuse for selfish basketball.
I was as frustrated as you, but we underestimate what mental fatigue does. It absolutely is less mentally tiring to dribble aimlessly and hoist shots than it is to run clean sets. We forget how thin the line between blowing out and being blown out is at the NBA level. If you're even a little bit off, you get completely smoked, even by inferior teams.They could have tried to execute the right way but failed because of fatigue. That would have been ok with me. This won't be the last loss this season. But every time you think they've turned a corner, they haven't. I realize that progress isn't always linear, but this looked to me like significant regression. I mean, is it that much less tiring to dribble the ball incessantly instead of attempting to pass it? Hopefully they learn from the mistakes.
Having never played in the NBA, I'll accept this hypothesis, but if I had a stronger stomach, I'd rewatch this game to see what Spoelstra and his staff did to encourage the Celtics to play hero ball. One obvious thing is that they did not double team Kyrie.It absolutely is less mentally tiring to dribble aimlessly and hoist shots than it is to run clean sets.
Good Lord, please don't make us Trust the PROCESS?However, I'm not going to let one road B2B loss cloud my otherwise positive evaluation of where the team's process has been going. "X is not an excuse for Y" is one of those things that sounds great, but isn't really actionable for evaluation (fans, management) or improvement (coaches, players).
I don’t agree with this. How many here expected us to be a 5-seed in January?Seems like we’re saying that any loss shows some huge problem. Lose to good team—well we can’t beat teams we need to beat in postseason. Lose to bad team—no focus. Lost on 2nd night of b2b—we are too deep for this.
We seem set up to complain in some way unless we win out.
Yes, in a word. Give both teams 3 days rest coming in and we play Indiana pretty even, are probably favored a little but it's likely a tight one.If that makes it a schedule loss, then doesn't it also make the 'big win' a schedule win? Indiana was on the second night of a back-to back and playing their fourth straight road game.
I fear that you are correct, but I am not quite there myself. It has clearly taken this team some time to get its act together, and it may well be that the current mix of players is not quite right, but I think it is still possible that this team figures it out - they look better now than 2 months ago.Ok, so I'll give a simple/boring answer on why they can't beat good teams on the road.
They aren't that good.
Edit: Maybe it's just me, I was under the impression we were supposed to be seeing a better team this year than the one we saw last year, and I'm not seeing that, even though we got back one of our best players, and our actual best player and the rest of the team really hasn't changed. We are currently 10-11 on the road. We need to 18-2 over the last 20 road games just to be the same team we were last year on the road. What happened differently last year, or what is happening differently this year to make this team lose so frequently in games they won so frequently last year?
This is exactly right. The 7 team expansion diluted the NBA talent horribly. Across the league guard play was below average for over a decade. The current talent level in the NBA is incredibly high, the business model causes the talent to be spread around and on any given night the Hawks can beat the Sixers, the Wizards can beat the Bucks and the Heat can beat the Celtics.When was the league last this deep? My gut instinct is to say the late eighties.
Well, I was being a bit hyperbolic on purpose. But my point was that we are showing disappointment in single game performances with different overall themes depending on who we lose to--one night it's because we can't beat good teams, another it's because we can't win on road, etc. And I didn't say anyone was jumping ship (except maybe Death up above).This is silly. So now showing disappointment in a single game performance is equivalent to complaining? People are merely discussing what they watched and last night it wasn’t pretty. If that’s somehow frowned upon because it includes some negative commentary, then what exactly is the point of this message board?
Calling something a “schedule loss” and then moving on is just boring and overly-simplistic to me. Nobody is jumping off the ship because of a January regular season loss.
Horford's already on a minutes limit. I suspect the days off will start when Baynes is back.Good Lord, please don't make us Trust the PROCESS?
All kidding aside a lot of the season to go, Hayward will continue to heal as will Horford (more days off please). Baynes on the mend. Smart is hitting 3s and showing confidence. Brown has turned a corner from earlier this season. TimeLord is developing and could eventually be a playoff weapon. Lots of good things are happening.
As far as the C's themselves, playing .500 for the first 20 then taking off is exactly what I thought would happen.I don’t agree with this. How many here expected us to be a 5-seed in January?
Brad should be rotating in more TL period. Theis is still the next in line, but TL needs more minutes. Less for Yabusele and more rest for Al. There's some risk involved, but fuck it.Horford's already on a minutes limit. I suspect the days off will start when Baynes is back.
I’d actually like to see TL and Al on the floor together for ten minutes a game, because I think they are absolutely perfect complements of one another. Al will also expend far less energy on defense, so he can keep some gas in the tank long-term.Brad should be rotating in more TL period. Theis is still the next in line, but TL needs more minutes. Less for Yabusele and more rest for Al. There's some risk involved, but fuck it.
Save Al. Find out what TL has.
All public comments seem to suggest that saving Al is part of the program.Brad should be rotating in more TL period. Theis is still the next in line, but TL needs more minutes. Less for Yabusele and more rest for Al. There's some risk involved, but fuck it.
Save Al. Find out what TL has.
Theis and Baynes are going to get significant minutes in the playoffs (15-20/game combined). Which of Baynes/Theis plays in a given matchup will probably depend on health and the opponent's burliness.For the most part they just didn’t show up in Miami.* If there’s any frustration from that game it should be about them not trying hard enough to get a better seed. I think that game says almost nothing about how good they’ll be in the playoffs.
*Caveat here is that Al was really, really bad. It made me feel uneasy about him pushing high 30s minutes in the playoffs. He’s very important. This is something to watch.
Hayward was also bad but based on public comments that’s still part of his recovery and not worrisome long term.
What opposing offensive player has lit TL up? I haven't seen one, although he hasn't played many minutes against starters.I think what Stevens knows -- probably from practice and watching him play -- is that TL isnt a very good defensive player yet. He can block shots but he can't seem to guard anyone.
Drummond and Ayton had their way with him inside.What opposing offensive player has lit TL up? I haven't seen one, although he hasn't played many minutes against starters.
He doesn't just guard one guy, he guards multiple guys because of the intimidation factor. I'd like to see TL and Theis in there together when Horford sits.
I have no problem with TL's offensive skills. He has a mid range jumper and he's a decent passer. To me, his upside looks like Capela, which isn't too shabby. Capela did even less in his first year than TL is doing now.
You can't only "guard multiple guys." You at least have to be able to guard your guy. (or one guy on a switch).What opposing offensive player has lit TL up? I haven't seen one, although he hasn't played many minutes against starters.
He doesn't just guard one guy, he guards multiple guys because of the intimidation factor. I'd like to see TL and Theis in there together when Horford sits.
I have no problem with TL's offensive skills. He has a mid range jumper and he's a decent passer. To me, his upside looks like Capela, which isn't too shabby. Capela did even less in his first year than TL is doing now.
He's taken at least one short jumper, but he missed it. I think he's had decent success in some 1 on 1 matchups (eg, Anthony Davis), but, as you note, he has a long way to go on team defensive concepts. To me that, and not his offense, is the biggest thing standing between him and regular minutes.You can't only "guard multiple guys." You at least have to be able to guard your guy. (or one guy on a switch).
He hasn't been able to guard big men 1 on 1. Also, in the game that Walker(?) went off, Walker(?) got past him at will. He also regularly gets caught in between on switches and pick and rolls. We agree he has a long way to go. I dont care if looks better than Wilt Chamberlain did in his rookie year. I didn't say he has no future, I was responding with my opinion as to why he isn't playing more now. I just don't think he's been quite as good overall as his spectacular shot-blocking may have led people to believe.
If he's taken a midrange jumper, I've missed it.
Are you talking about Kemba Walker? In the game he scored 43 against the C's, TimeLord never got off the bench, zero minutes. In that game, Charlotte kept exploiting the Celtics switching, and Kemba abused Al all night long off the switch. TimeLord played in the second game against Charlotte that the C's won by 16. The C's had a 27 point lead going into the 4th, so defensively, they weren't really clamping down. He did have 6 points, 2 rebounds, a block and a steal in 11 minutes.You can't only "guard multiple guys." You at least have to be able to guard your guy. (or one guy on a switch).
He hasn't been able to guard big men 1 on 1. Also, in the game that Walker(?) went off, Walker(?) got past him at will. He also regularly gets caught in between on switches and pick and rolls. We agree he has a long way to go. I dont care if looks better than Wilt Chamberlain did in his rookie year. I didn't say he has no future, I was responding with my opinion as to why he isn't playing more now. I just don't think he's been quite as good overall as his spectacular shot-blocking may have led people to believe.
If he's taken a midrange jumper, I've missed it.
According to nba.com stats, Williams has attempted one shot from outside the paint this season and he missed it.In my view, the biggest things standing between TL and regular minutes are (1) general inexperience, (2) injuries, and (3) Daniel Theis, who is a pretty good player.
I'm pretty sure he made a jumper against Phoenix but I can't find any film.