Maybe more like 27-year old Paul Pierce, who wore a bandage around his head in one of the most egregious cases of postgame flopping that I've ever seen?
Celtics in 18-19
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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and gave the Celtics some size to match up with Monroe
I'd like to emphasize this.
It was nice to see a big-body underneath the offensive glass - working hard to create second-opportunities via missed shots.
There just wasn't enough (any?) of that during the 0-3 road trip.
TNT broadcast team said that JT is looking to go to the FT line more often. That would be a great sign for short-term success (though it means putting his body through more). Too often - particularly when he has a smaller guy on him - I wish he'd attack the hoop rather than go to his fallaway, which admittedly is unblockable by anyone smaller than him.
To my eyes, JB more than anyone else on the team is going to be dependent on his teammates AND has sacrificed the most. If he were on another team, he'd be a primary ball handler and would probably be a 15-8 guy minimum depending how many shots he would be allowed to jack up.
But on this team, he sits in the corner a lot; gets a lot of his points on fast breaks; doesn't have a lot of plays run for him; and as far as I can tell, tries very hard not to pound the ball into the court while setting up his move.
One thing I really hope JB does is turn into an All-NBA defender. Sooner rather than later.
And for folks who want a breakdown (with film! and numbers!) of how JB has improved since going to the bench, see this post: https://thesportsdaily.com/2019/01/10/how-jaylen-brown-has-turned-both-his-and-the-celtics-season-around-dols11/
Yes, it is coming across extremely condescending. A real leader would give his teammates confidence and bring out the best in them. A real leader doesn't demand the ball because he is worried about their ability to win the game and then blasts them publically when they fail instead of picking them up. I've always viewed Al Horford as the leader of this team, with Kyrie the playmaker. You want the ball at the end of the game, great. But be more mature and realize it is a long season and the coach may try to give others confidence - oh and force teams not to double you at the end of games. It seems like Kyrie is trying to take over the vocal leadership role, but I'm not sure he's well suited for it yet. Maybe he grows into it, but it seems like he tries to prove he is "woke" through the media, which is clearly not a sign of a real leader. Let Horford be the leader. He was when you were hurt for last year and the young guys played fantastic.
This basically captures it for me. I don’t think Kyrie is a natural leader. He’s trying to be and it’s just coming off as forced. Hopefully he adjusts his approach going forward because his postgame comments have become distractions for a team that clearly doesn’t need any.
Play like you did tonight. Be the team’s alpha dog when it matters. But leave the public leadership stuff to someone more capable.
This is Kyrie's team. He's the best player on the team and he is the one guy they need to go all the way. And I think the team knows it.
He's young. He's still learning how to lead. He's going to make mistakes. But I think he learns from them. Which is all you can ask right now.
This team is like the polar opposite from the KG/PP/Allen teams, which (outside from Rondo), instantly knew the pecking order both on the court and in the locker room. But hopefully they get to the same place.
He's young. He's still learning how to lead. He's going to make mistakes. But I think he learns from them. Which is all you can ask right now.
This team is like the polar opposite from the KG/PP/Allen teams, which (outside from Rondo), instantly knew the pecking order both on the court and in the locker room. But hopefully they get to the same place.
Fwiw, I think that is happening right before our eyes. Sure, it can end horribly. But there are reasons to be hopeful. Kyrie reminded everyone last night that he's the alpha dog. He did it on a night where he also had a career high in assists, so it wasn't some ESPN only highlight film. He helped them be better. "Follow me to the promised land, gentlemen."
And everyone was pulling for each other too, so it's not like there appeared to be any "fuck that guy" pushback.
I took a couple days of break from the Celtics starting in the 4th quarter of the Orlando game, because I was so pissed off at the team's lack of consistent process and focus.
I'm watching the Toronto replay now, and it's bizarre. It feels exactly like the team that was playing hard, executing even when they had rough stretches, and looking like one of the better teams in the league.
I honestly can't figure it out at this point. Hopefully the chemistry issues and media sniping stop now that Kyrie's seen that that's not a productive road to go down.
I didn't think the Cs played all that well on offense, well other than GH in the first half. There were two long stretches of stagnant offense.
I thought they moved better on defense, leading to contested shots that TOR didn't make.
As I said upthread, the Cs can play up to - or down to - every team in the league. It's an interesting to watch. Looking forward to seeing their defense v GSW.
I don't think we'll see these things from Kyrie going forward--I mean, he's always going to wax poetic about things, that's just who he is and there's no problem there. I think the last few days were him making a mistake, and then last night, him essentially admitting that mistake, saying he should not have aired those things outside the locker room.
They got a big win last night, let's see how the do Friday, if it continues.
They got a big win last night, let's see how the do Friday, if it continues.
I agree with all of this.
Mental trip down memory lane. Thinking back to Kyrie’s draft where he was the obvious #1 pick but the Cavs wouldn’t make that announcement prior to the draft. They were torn between selecting him or Derrick Williams out of Arizona at #1 while using their other lottery pick on Brandon Knight. It’s funny to think back as these “tough decisions” years later when Williams/Knight was a legit consideration for the Cavs over Kyrie/Tristan.
I was a big fan of Derrick Williams coming off his tournament performance. Whoops. I thought they should have gone Williams/Kemba.
According to Joe Vardon, when Kyrie called LeBron last night, LeBron was out to dinner with Kevin Love. Very interesting.
+1. This is heartening. So many on this site are observing the nuanced impact Baynes has on games (that's missed by the mainstream media). Glad to hear Brad mention it in the post-game presser.
Not only the extra possession or two with his offensive tip outs. OR Baynes help defense by the rim when one of our wings gets beat off the dribble. OR the big 4th Quarter 3pt shot when the team had only scored 5 points in the first 6 minutes.
One of Baynes biggest contributions is his physical screen setting. No one on this team runs around on the offensive end setting screens for our best scorers (Kyrie, MaMo, Tatum) like Aron Baynes. It's huge. Horford can barely do it since he is already pretty beat up and the rest of the team (other than Smart) isn't very good at it. AND it's probably the main reason why our "small ball" lineups have been a failure on the offensive end. Watching our "elite offensive small ballers" stand around the perimeter, looking for the ball to go one on one with no screens/no cuts, it's no wonder why it struggles to score, get fouls, get layups and settles for jumpers.
I'm officially changing my handle to Baynes Hogan...mods sort it out
If you had started this during the offseason, I bet Danny would have given him an extra million or two.
Make sure you get part of his next contract.
no worries, Aron still would have given the team a discounted deal...
for clarity, I've been bangin' the Baynes drum hard since the Cavs playoffs series last year when Brad was matching Al up against Tristen Thompson
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Yeah, I didn't think they were AMAZING. It was more like "pretty good defensive effort and sort of competent offense from a good team" rather than "what in holy hell am I watching make it stop I'm turning this off for awhile."
In all seriousness though, while I disagree with your Baynes+Horford obsession, the benefit of alternating Horford and Baynes is severely underrated. The dropoff to Theis is big, and I think has a lot to do with screen-setting on offense, and having a real 5 on defense as opposed to a long 4.
I would really like to know what kind of leadership role Al has on the team. Kyrie is definitely the best player, but Al is the veteran and Marcus Smart seems like the real heart and soul of the team on the court. I wonder if they could use a savvy veteran bench leader, a la David West, Shane Battier, etc
While I also disagree wholeheartedly about playing Baynes and Horford together there is no doubt that Baynes is vital to this teams success with our second unit. He fits so much better with our scorer than Theis does.....just a more natural fit.
It doesn’t appear that Horford is natural in a leadership role as he’s taking a back seat to Kyrie and Smart here while doing the same to DeMarre Carroll with the Hawks. I’d guess he’s the type who goes about his business in as professional a manner as any player in the NBA while not being a driving force in motivating his teammates but instead by setting a good example by his work.
I think a lot of folks are ignoring a big time presence in the locker room, and his name is MaMo. Obviously, I can only go by what I see, but he seems to me the kind of guy that has the tendency to snap at a moment's notice, especially on the "young guys" who may not be getting it. We all saw the little altercation with him and Jaylen, but I think there is definitely more of that happening below the surface. He seems like he could be a bully, for lack of a better term.
I'm not sure I'd call him a leader, nor would I call him a cancer, but if the locker room became fractured (if it wasn't already), I would personally think he'd be a big reason for it. Folks were saying in the game threads recently they'd consider moving him back to the bench, and start Jaylen, and I don't think that would go over with him very well at all. I don't think his personality will handle it, nor his upcoming contract-situation. I think Brad would need a bodyguard if he decided to start benching Morris in favor of Jaylen, but that's just me.
I could be totally wrong, and the guy could be Mother Theresa in the locker room, and his guys might be willing to follow him into war a la the Pats and Brady, but I certainly think he brings a presence to that locker room that can't be ignored.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/16/18184141/al-horford-celtics-struggles
If we have Championship ambitions this season, Brad needs to figure out how to get Horford healthy between now and the playoffs.
What are the best options:
1. All back-to-backs OFF?
2. Limit his court time to 25mpg?
3. Give him extended time off around the All-Star break?
Any other ideas?
If we have Championship ambitions this season, Brad needs to figure out how to get Horford healthy between now and the playoffs.
What are the best options:
1. All back-to-backs OFF?
2. Limit his court time to 25mpg?
3. Give him extended time off around the All-Star break?
Any other ideas?
This is very true. He was the one who got into it with Jaylen after he took back-to-back plays off going at half speed.
There are 6 more back to backs I think. Might not be a bad idea, depending on specific circumstances.
Those second games are @ATL, Det, Portland, @Sac, Spurs, @Nets. Two are home then road, 3 are road then home, and 1 is 2 road games (GS, SAC)
And I know it seems like he's struggling, but his numbers are better than last year and he has the highest TS% since he's come to Boston.
Those second games are @ATL, Det, Portland, @Sac, Spurs, @Nets. Two are home then road, 3 are road then home, and 1 is 2 road games (GS, SAC)
And I know it seems like he's struggling, but his numbers are better than last year and he has the highest TS% since he's come to Boston.
Playing him 25/game and giving Baynes the rest as the big in 3 wing, 1 ball-handler lineups seems pretty straightforward. Maybe back-to-backs off once in awhile, using a Baynes/Theis/TL rotation.
Having Baynes gives them so much more flexibility to preserve Horford, and I expect Brad to use it. No need to overcomplicate things--this is why re-signing Baynes was a priority in the offseason.
I wouldn't say Al's struggling. He still looks elite when fresh, the challenge is just keeping him that way in May.
Kyrie is a great player but so immature.
His latest Lebron stuff basically boils down to "When Lebron talked down to me and implied that I was a child, it drove me nuts because I was a very talented player myself, worthy of some respect. But now that I'm in the alpha role, I want to act exactly like Lebron did to the talented young guys on my team."
It's being passed off as some kind of growth, but really it's the opposite. He's justifying his failure to learn from how Lebron ruined his experience with the Cavs.
I hope he can just shut up and lead the basketball team with his excellent play, but this feels like it's not going to play out the way we want.
His latest Lebron stuff basically boils down to "When Lebron talked down to me and implied that I was a child, it drove me nuts because I was a very talented player myself, worthy of some respect. But now that I'm in the alpha role, I want to act exactly like Lebron did to the talented young guys on my team."
It's being passed off as some kind of growth, but really it's the opposite. He's justifying his failure to learn from how Lebron ruined his experience with the Cavs.
I hope he can just shut up and lead the basketball team with his excellent play, but this feels like it's not going to play out the way we want.
And furthermore...if he ends up on the Lakers next year there's going to be a new level of sports hatred discovered.
This is exactly right. I can't even believe I'm saying it, but Mike Felger made this same point a little while ago on the radio, and for the first time that I can remember, I agreed with him. Kyrie basically wants to be Lebron, and he's forgetting that the reason he's even here is because he hated Lebron treating him the way he's now treating the young guys on this team. We're through the looking glass here.
Felger made me laugh when he said something along the lines of "If I was Lebron and Kyrie called me and apologized for being a little shit when we played together, I would ask him why he couldn't have done that 18 months ago. If he did, we'd probably still be winning championships together." The fact that Lebron and Kevin Love were having dinner together was perfect. When the call came in, I would have given anything to have been a fly on the wall when Lebron looked at his phone and realized it was Kyrie. What do you guys think he said to Love?
Are there any stories or rumors of Irving going to the Lakers? I have seen nothing suggesting that LA is a potential landing spot for him.
Here is the reality. Kyrie is 26 and is the best player on the 12th youngest team in the NBA. Furthermore, this entire squad is still learning to play with one another - recall that the Warriors took a few years to gel before really contending- and there will be growing pains. Irving and the others are course correcting in real time. It may or may not work but they are trying.
Its pretty clear that collective expectations about the team, the players or the season were too high. I prefer to wait and see how they respond before rendering judgment because last night's game shows that there still exists a scenario where this team's championship video features the first part of the year where all seemed lost...and then they figured it out. Or maybe they don't.
But getting mad at a bunch of relatively young guys for learning how to win and play together on the fly seems rash. YRMV. .
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I don't think there was any scenario for LeBron and Kyrie to still be playing together today. We are forgetting the primary reason for requesting a trade was to have his own team and knowing that LeBron was leaving the following year he didn't want to be stuck in Cleveland. It keeps being falsely portrayed that Kyrie hated LeBron when there has never been any evidence of this being the case (actually there has been plenty to suggest the opposite). As far as ruining his experience in Cleveland......Kyrie has a ring because of that awful experience with LeBron.
You’ve hit the nail on the head with respect to cause and effect. And I get that part of the fun of sports talk radio and sports related message boards is fretting over the details and getting bent out of shape over who said what which I mostly just find amusing.
The Celtics are fine despite not playing up to expectations and they have just about as good a chance as any other team in the East.
Could be quite a few reasons.
You get him into your system early and get to see how he fits.
If Rozier is comfortable with the team that trades for him, might make an easier negotiation on a contract.
If you get him now, you won't have to outbid any other team that might be interested in giving him an offer sheet(or have Rozier choose a different teams' offer sheet) since you'd now have matching rights.
Maybe a team that won't have cap space this summer, say Detroit, would have to trade for him if they wanted him.
Maybe a team that wants him but also is big game hunting this summer, say the Clippers, would trade for him now since it would be tougher to fit him in under the cap on an offer sheet, but real easy to do so as your own player since he has a tiny cap hold.
There was a headline on ESPN.com earlier today about some source telling Screaming A. Smith that Kyrie might be headed to the Lakers. I can't stand the guy so I didn't click through to read the article, but I assume that's what is being referred to here.
It is certainly fair to say that he is not a natural leader and that a lot of what he has done thus far hasn't been helpful. But I don't think assuming the worst possible explanation for his actions is either correct or helpful.
Baynes is currently third in the vote, so obviously about half million times or so,
Out of all the vote-rigging SoSH has engaged in over the years, I personally think the most noble was getting that couple a free wedding. But getting Man Bun to Charlotte would be a strong 2nd place.
Agreeing with Felger and propping up Los Angeles Mythology in successive posts is a damn fine achievement.
I have to say, Baynes looks great. If Horford has nights where he's tired or not able/willing to bring full effort, Baynes needs to be getting 25-30 minutes. Everything flows so much more smoothly on both ends with him out there, relative to Theis.
+1
Do you think Brad will go there? AB has only played 20+ mpg 4x this season (coincidentally they are 4-0 in those games). Horford needs scheduled nights off (like Atlanta tonight) and to start splitting his minutes between the 4 and 5. So maybe Baynes does get up to 25mpg, just don't think Brad will give up his love affair with small ball that easily.
Theis is fine in small doses (8-12mpg), especially if you pair him with Al or MaMo at the 4. You just can't stick Daniel out there with Jaylen/Tatum/Gordon at the 4.
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Zach Lowe had Kyrie as one of his Second Team All-NBA Guards (along with Dame) through the first half of the season; Kyrie has only made one All-NBA team in his career, Third Team in 2015. With Harden and Curry the obvious First Teamers, it's pretty high praise to be in the next tier. He's up to 7.6 assists per 36, easily the best of his career (last year was 5.7, previous high was 6.4 his rookie year) and a career high in steals per 36, 1.8; hell, he's even at a career high in rebounds per 36 at 5.4, up from 4.2 last year and a high of 4.4. I don't have a great deal of aptitude with the advanced stats, but for the first time in his career he's at a positive DBPM at 0.6.
There's still half a season left, but he's probably having the best year of his career if he keeps this up.
So this is a couple questions in one.
1. How/when to play two bigs? We only saw Horford+Baynes last night to close because Memphis is a bit of a throwback in playing Gasol and Jackson together. It worked ok given that, but Baynes' and Horford's offensive skillsets, particularly screening, are a bit redundant, and the offensive definitely looked more gummed up than it does in the 1 big/3 wing/1 ballhandler lineups (counting Smart as a wing).
2. Horford's rest. I've been saying for a long time that Baynes needs more minutes both to rest Horford in-game, and give him scheduled days off. Note that playing both bigs together is actively counterproductive for this goal. It seems so obvious that Baynes should be playing 20-25 regularly, and then going a bit more when Horford is resting. Baynes has a player option next year; may as well ride the shit out of him.
3. What to do with Theis? I don't think Theis sees any minutes in the playoffs if the team is healthy. They should just focus on getting him those 8-10 minutes/game so that he stays ready if/when injuries come. I'd prefer to see those at the 5, against benches that don't have a post-up center.
4. What's the team's optimal play style? I don't see any way, against elite teams in the playoffs, that you can play Horford and Baynes together, except maybe in small stints against Philly or Indy to save Horford the banging. The offense just can't hit a high enough level, and all the other elite matchups play 1 big themselves.
Mini rant: the whole "Brad's love affair with small-ball" thing is a tired strawman that needs to be retired. He nearly always has one of Baynes or Horford out there when healthy, and Morris/Tatum/Hayward are 4s against most teams in the modern NBA. The entire league is going smaller at the 4. They're doing it because it works, and because you simply have to put points on the board against modern offenses.