Celtics in 18-19

mcpickl

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Far more likely that he gets signed & traded to the Thunder this offseason for future picks than re-signing here.
That is really unlikely.

Thunder are already over the projected tax for next year with the salary they have on the books, they can't acquire anyone in a sign and trade that leaves them over the tax apron.

Even taking back a big salary the Celtics probably wouldn't want like Roberson, OKC would have to hack off a lot of salary to fit Morris under the apron.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Ideally (and is argue its likely that) Hayward and/or Brown step up by then and make him expendable.
Jaylen has already stepped up. We know what he’s capable of in that role from his performance last year plus any additional upside that he has. I’m not going to sing Jaylen any points for having his job requirements changing to take away his strengths (slashing into gaps and creating off the dribble) while exposing his flaws (playing without the ball). Hayward is fine as is and only figures to get better with two less shot creator in the rotation in Morris and Rozier.
 

mauf

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So when do we start talking about resigning Morris? What started as just a hot start seems to have turned into a great fit for the starting 5
It all depends on how deep, and for how long, ownership is willing to take the team into luxury tax territory. If money were no object, of course you’d resign Morris — it’s not like the C’s will be able to get under the cap anytime soon.

I will say this: I can’t envision a scenario where Jaylen and MaMo are both here next season.
 

nighthob

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That is really unlikely.

Thunder are already over the projected tax for next year with the salary they have on the books, they can't acquire anyone in a sign and trade that leaves them over the tax apron.

Even taking back a big salary the Celtics probably wouldn't want like Roberson, OKC would have to hack off a lot of salary to fit Morris under the apron.
Yes, they would need to convince the Suns that Schroeder's the PG they've been looking for. (Assuming that they haven't already traded for Rozier.)
 

mcpickl

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Yes, they would need to convince the Suns that Schroeder's the PG they've been looking for. (Assuming that they haven't already traded for Rozier.)
Gotta keep cutting.

Even if they could dump off Schroeder and take back no salary it's near impossible to make happen. They'd still have 123 million committed to just Russ, George, Adams, Roberson, Grant and Patterson. Even if the Celtics took back Roberson, which seems unlikely, and Morris took a discount, even more unlikely, don't see how they fit in under the projected 138M apron.

Most likely scenario in my mind is Morris just signs outright with whatever team with cap space misses out on their better targets and they settle for Morris.
 

nighthob

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I think the disconnect here is over the value of the next contract. I'm expecting a reasonable Smart type deal, but if you're expecting him to get Evan Turner money, then yes, it's not possible.
 

lovegtm

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I think the disconnect here is over the value of the next contract. I'm expecting a reasonable Smart type deal, but if you're expecting him to get Evan Turner money, then yes, it's not possible.
I don't think Marcus Morris is the greatest player in the NBA or anything, but if his shooting is close to real, he'll get paid just because he's at the scarcest position in the league.
 

mcpickl

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I think the disconnect here is over the value of the next contract. I'm expecting a reasonable Smart type deal, but if you're expecting him to get Evan Turner money, then yes, it's not possible.
He probably gets north of Smarts' deal unless he craters offensively the rest of the way, teams still overpay for offense and underpay for defense.

His exact contract value is a lesser issue for me, just think it's jumping through too many hoops to fit him on OKC. Dump Schroeder for no salary back, get the Celtics or somebody else to take Roberson, pay Morris what he wants, then if that fits in a best case scenario, fill out the half dozen other roster spots with dudes making the minimum or near it.

Seems pretty unlikely, and they might not even be improved.
 

nighthob

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Yeah, I'm just not sure that someone is going to commit that kind of money to someone like Morris given the age/knee. I guess we'll see.
 

benhogan

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Yeah but imagine how super awesome he'd be defensively at the 4 chasing Wilson Chandler around the 3-point line and switching onto Redick! #benhogan

Merry Christmas! :)
Ha, now you're just trolling me .... which is fine since you wished me holiday cheer ;)

To be clear, here was my stance in pre-season and it hasn't changed:
1. I love Al Horford and I'm fine with him playing the 5 against smaller Centers. I'd like to see him play the 5 and 4 (when his knee is back to being healthy), like he did last season. I want his minutes limited playing the 5 (against the 260lb++ Centers) because I'm concerned he'll be worn down to a nub and Al won't be the same come playoff time. You've disagreed with that assessment since the pre-season and said why "the kid gloves with Al?". And that Aron Baynes was barely a rotation player (Baynes stats clearly prove that wrong).
Well, by playing Al strictly at Center, guarding 5s that are a "load" (Brad's words) for 30mins/gm, Al has missed more games to injury this season than last season already. How many times was Al on the sidelines lying on his back last season, like he was on Tuesday? Sure enough, as predicted by myself and others on this board, 32yr old Al is getting worn down to a nub.

2. Why would Al guard Wilson Chandler? When Horford guarded and shut down Ben Simmons several times last season. Al could stand below the FT line (like MaMo did on Xmas Day) and freelance (and help our 5s guard Embiid). BUT if Al had to guard Wilson Chandler, I'm not too worried, Al would swat any of that guy's garbage (and not have to body him). Should we also be concerned with Al guarding Muscala on the 3pt line?

3. I like that article Chilidog attached (quoted below) and is exactly what I'm seeing when Al plays strictly at the 5:

Defensive data logged by Synergy Sports has Horford defending a team-high 348 total possessions this year (see A) and allowing 0.917 points per play. For the 68 defenders with at least that many possessions defended this season, Horford ranks 39th (see B) among them. That’s jarring when you consider Horford ranked sixth among all NBA players with at least 500 possessions defended last season (see C) while allowing 0.799 points per play.

(A) Al's defensive usage is up (no wonder he is struggling with his 3pt shot and injured/worn down)
(B) Horford's defensive efficiency is below average this season (because he is a better defensive 4 then 5)
(C) Horford ranked 6th last season in defensive efficiency (once again he is a better defender at the 4 then the 5)

4. I've shown you Al's off/def net ratings from this season vs. last season (Al was much better last season). I've shown you Al's off/def net rating playing with Baynes vs not playing with Baynes (He's much better playing w/Baynes). You disregard any kind of statistical comps between last season and this season, claiming "the game has changed" (complete hyperbole).

The good thing is these stats can't be ignored much longer. Once Baynes is healthy, the team will start to limit Al's pounding by big, young, strong 5s. AND when Al is fully healthy we'll also get to see him back at the 4 for ~10-12mins/gm, much to HRB's chagrin.

Happy New Year to all:drunk:
 

lovegtm

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Ha, now you're just trolling me .... which is fine since you wished me holiday cheer ;)

To be clear, here was my stance in pre-season and it hasn't changed:
1. I love Al Horford and I'm fine with him playing the 5 against smaller Centers. I'd like to see him play the 5 and 4 (when his knee is back to being healthy), like he did last season. I want his minutes limited playing the 5 (against the 260lb++ Centers) because I'm concerned he'll be worn down to a nub and Al won't be the same come playoff time. You've disagreed with that assessment since the pre-season and said why "the kid gloves with Al?". And that Aron Baynes was barely a rotation player (Baynes stats clearly prove that wrong).
Well, by playing Al strictly at Center, guarding 5s that are a "load" (Brad's words) for 30mins/gm, Al has missed more games to injury this season than last season already. How many times was Al on the sidelines lying on his back last season, like he was on Tuesday? Sure enough, as predicted by myself and others on this board, 32yr old Al is getting worn down to a nub.

2. Why would Al guard Wilson Chandler? When Horford guarded and shut down Ben Simmons several times last season. Al could stand below the FT line (like MaMo did on Xmas Day) and freelance (and help our 5s guard Embiid). BUT if Al had to guard Wilson Chandler, I'm not too worried, Al would swat any of that guy's garbage (and not have to body him). Should we also be concerned with Al guarding Muscala on the 3pt line?

3. I like that article Chilidog attached (quoted below) and is exactly what I'm seeing when Al plays strictly at the 5:

Defensive data logged by Synergy Sports has Horford defending a team-high 348 total possessions this year (see A) and allowing 0.917 points per play. For the 68 defenders with at least that many possessions defended this season, Horford ranks 39th (see B) among them. That’s jarring when you consider Horford ranked sixth among all NBA players with at least 500 possessions defended last season (see C) while allowing 0.799 points per play.

(A) Al's defensive usage is up (no wonder he is struggling with his 3pt shot and injured/worn down)
(B) Horford's defensive efficiency is below average this season (because he is a better defensive 4 then 5)
(C) Horford ranked 6th last season in defensive efficiency (once again he is a better defender at the 4 then the 5)

4. I've shown you Al's off/def net ratings from this season vs. last season (Al was much better last season). I've shown you Al's off/def net rating playing with Baynes vs not playing with Baynes (He's much better playing w/Baynes). You disregard any kind of statistical comps between last season and this season, claiming "the game has changed" (complete hyperbole).

The good thing is these stats can't be ignored much longer. Once Baynes is healthy, the team will start to limit Al's pounding by big, young, strong 5s. AND when Al is fully healthy we'll also get to see him back at the 4 for ~10-12mins/gm, much to HRB's chagrin.

Happy New Year to all:drunk:
The holidays are upon us, and I'm bored. In that spirit, here is my summary of the great benhogan/HRB Horford debate, broken into its component problems (not all of which are weighted equally, of course), and the possible solutions.

Problems/Challenges
1. Al Horford seems to get more banged up playing against 5s than against 4s. The team was already handling him with kid gloves last year (reports came out that he was given most practices off in 2017-2018). In addition, his shooting is down this year, which detracts heavily from his value, and if that's attributable to the wear from banging, his role needs to be reconsidered.
2. The Celtics have a LOT of quality wings who need playing time. Last year, Hayward was out, and Morris wasn't anywhere close to this level. Tatum and Brown we all know.
3. Marcus Smart needs minutes, because the team clearly thrives off the identity he instills, and he's also pretty good at basketball.
4. Brown and Rozier need to be preserved as assets, which requires minutes for development and confidence. People don't like having to think about this during a championship contention year, but the reality is that their value (particularly Brown's) is utterly critical for maximizing championship equity. If he had progressed from where he was in May, we'd probably be talking about him as a potential centerpiece in an AD trade, instead of having to think about whether Tatum needs to go. The NBA is an incredibly tough league, and those little margins matter. Ask Philly what happens when you burn through your assets and have to figure out contention.

Positives with Which to Work
1. The Celtics have a very strong identity when they play 1 guard, 3 wings, and a center, regardless of who that center is. Baynes & Theis have both played great at times in the 5 with 4 out role, either by setting strong screens (Baynes), or stretching vertically and to the 3 point line (Theis, although he's an underrated screener too). Theis struggles against Embiid types, but they're few and far between.

Possible Solutions
1. benhogan's Al at the 4. Solves 1, makes the others actively worse. The defense would probably be very good using this lineup, offense a bit weaker.
2. HRB's rotating rest. They're already almost doing it defacto, and making it explicit (at least internally) would probably help with the role confusion and indecisiveness we've seen this year. Addresses #s 2, 3, and 4, although it probably subjects Horford to too much banging in the games he does play, if he's playing ~30ish minutes against 5s.
3. Give Horford planned rest every few games, and limit his minutes to 20-25ish when he's not resting. Baynes and Theis can split the remaining minutes depending on matchups. This is my current favorite, and what I think the team will end up gravitating to, possibly with some HRB rotating rest thrown in to further raise Brown and Rozier's minutes.

Obviously there are exceptional cases that make decisions easy. Against Philly in a playoff matchup, we'll almost certainly see Baynes and Horford together, with Horford daring the Coward Simmons to shoot. Currently, Baynes' injury also dictates a lot of lineups. However, with the team healthy, they're going to have to choose out of some version of the three solutions above.
 

benhogan

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Very well played lovegtm.

Agree. I'm not taking into account minutes needs for wings (and subsequent value deterioration). It's a fair point.

HRB's rotating rest rule
(ala Pop) is smart and a great way to address the need for Wing minutes.

I especially like the idea of Hayward coming off the bench and working him in at a more measured pace (which is something I wanted in pre-season and HRB disagreed with)
 
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Eddie Jurak

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Well, by playing Al strictly at Center, guarding 5s that are a "load" (Brad's words) for 30mins/gm, Al has missed more games to injury this season than last season already. How many times was Al on the sidelines lying on his back last season, like he was on Tuesday? Sure enough, as predicted by myself and others on this board, 32yr old Al is getting worn down to a nub.
You are making an assumption here that isn't necessarily true.
 

benhogan

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You are making an assumption here that isn't necessarily true.
Yep, its an opinion. But can we pinpoint when Al injured his knee? OR did it come from wear n tear of playing big, young 5s?

I'm assuming wear n tear, but I could be wrong. I did think the "load" comment from Brad was telling

either way, Horford's minutes need to be curbed and he needs to be handled with kid gloves.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Obviously there are exceptional cases that make decisions easy. Against Philly in a playoff matchup, we'll almost certainly see Baynes and Horford together, with Horford daring the Coward Simmons to shoot. Currently, Baynes' injury also dictates a lot of lineups. However, with the team healthy, they're going to have to choose out of some version of the three solutions above.
See, I don't see this at all. We played them earlier in the year at full strength and we rotated Horford (29 min) and Baynes (19 min) at the 5 to keep one fresh against Embiid. This is the strategy I expect us to continue to take versus Embiid rather than wasting one on a non-Embiid player.
 

mcpickl

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See, I don't see this at all. We played them earlier in the year at full strength and we rotated Horford (29 min) and Baynes (19 min) at the 5 to keep one fresh against Embiid. This is the strategy I expect us to continue to take versus Embiid rather than wasting one on a non-Embiid player.
Me too, but since Embiid doesn't play 48 minutes, I'd use Baynes for all 19 of his minutes against him and Al the rest.

You know, like last year when it worked really well.

It's a waste to have Al play a majority of his minutes against Embiid when he can guard Simmons as well. Al can guard lots of different dudes, Baynes can guard 5s. Play him against the 5s. Seems really simple to me.
 

benhogan

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Obviously there are exceptional cases that make decisions easy. Against Philly in a playoff matchup, we'll almost certainly see Baynes and Horford together, with Horford daring the Coward Simmons to shoot. Currently, Baynes' injury also dictates a lot of lineups. However, with the team healthy, they're going to have to choose out of some version of the three solutions above.
I love this nickname, how can we make it stick?

maybe refer to him as Ward Simmons
 

HomeRunBaker

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Me too, but since Embiid doesn't play 48 minutes, I'd use Baynes for all 19 of his minutes against him and Al the rest.

You know, like last year when it worked really well.

It's a waste to have Al play a majority of his minutes against Embiid when he can guard Simmons as well. Al can guard lots of different dudes, Baynes can guard 5s. Play him against the 5s. Seems really simple to me.
This Horford/Baynes on the floor together thing is going to continue going on isn’t it? Why anyone feels Brad would go to this duo while Tatum and Morris sit and watch from the bench, especially against a pace team like Philly, continue to amaze me. Will those on this train turn on Brad when he doesn’t use this lineup?
 

Eddie Jurak

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Yep, its an opinion. But can we pinpoint when Al injured his knee? OR did it come from wear n tear of playing big, young 5s?

I'm assuming wear n tear, but I could be wrong. I did think the "load" comment from Brad was telling

either way, Horford's minutes need to be curbed and he needs to be handled with kid gloves.
My point is really just that you are claiming victory here without showing your work.

Any change in who Horford guards was a relative change, not an absolute one. He and not Baynes was part of the Celtics’ closing lineup last year, which means that guarding the likes of Joel Embiid is nothing new for him, though he may be playing more possessions against and other such players.

We’d also want to know how many teams have such players and what those players do. I think playing center against Andre Drummond is a different kind of thing than playing center against, say, Brook Lopez, and perimeter play by 7 footers - even those like Lopez who are former post players - is becoming more, not less, common. Does Horford get wear and tear from guarding a Brook Lopez that he would not get from guarding a Giannis? Does it matter that the Celtics switch everything such that he’s often guarding smaller, not bigger, players no matter who the opposing center may be.

Then there’s the injury itself. Patellofemoral pain syndrome. Is this the sort of injury one would expect from west and tear of guarding bigger players? I don’t know. What I read about it suggests it has more to do with muscle imbalances (other lower body muscles not doing enough work and putting more strain on the knee as a result), but I really don’t know and I’m not an orthopedist.

Also there’s history. Horford is not the first undersized center and he won’t be the last. Even looking back to an era when centers were generally bigger and the post game was far more prominent. Do undersized centers have a history of wear and tear injuries?

Anyway, I don’t know any of the answers here. But those answers would be interesting in a way that your continuing to repeat your speculation is not.
 

benhogan

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This Horford/Baynes on the floor together thing is going to continue going on isn’t it? Why anyone feels Brad would go to this duo while Tatum and Morris sit and watch from the bench, especially against a pace team like Philly, continue to amaze me. Will those on this train turn on Brad when he doesn’t use this lineup?
Brad really likes to play small, going back to his days at Butler, so he is trying out a ton of those different rotations. I get that. BUT I think the importance of Horford's health and the statistical evidence will narrow down the rotations as the regular season moves along. Sometimes it makes sense to play small, sometimes it makes sense to play large, depends on the matchup and situation.

Right now Al is pretty gimpy and banged up. BUT I just don't get where this narrative started that Al couldn't guard the vast majority of 4s or play perimeter defense? Al dominated defensively at the 4 all last season leading to an All-Star selection and one of the best statistical seasons in his career. I just don't think Al and the game have changed that much over 1 season.

"Turn on Brad", what does that mean? He's one of the best coaches in basketball, Celtics are lucky to have him, he's trying plenty of rotations during the 1st half of the regular season (like any analytical/intelligent person would do), he knows Baynes/Horford worked before, I suspect he knows he can go there when its necessary. Brad admitted post-Sixers game that they missed Baynes size covering Embiid, it was pretty glaring during the first 3 quarters.
 
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benhogan

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Anyway, I don’t know any of the answers here. But those answers would be interesting in a way that your continuing to repeat your speculation is not.
unnecessary dig/snark

Since I can't pinpoint when/where/how Al was injured I can only guess. Please strike my "claim of victory".
 
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mcpickl

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This Horford/Baynes on the floor together thing is going to continue going on isn’t it? Why anyone feels Brad would go to this duo while Tatum and Morris sit and watch from the bench, especially against a pace team like Philly, continue to amaze me. Will those on this train turn on Brad when he doesn’t use this lineup?
Yes.

Why would Tatum and Morris sit?

Who is saying Baynes should take minutes from them?

I've said all along Baynes should take about four minutes from Rozier and he should be deployed against the other teams best center, who you can find on the floor for sure at the beginning of halves.

Starting Baynes/Horford together would affect Tatum and Morris' minutes zero percent.

And yeah, I'll turn on Brad if he doesn't use the exact lineups I think are optimal as much as you turned on Ainge for signing Smart long term when you wouldn't have.

If someone doesn't agree with me 100% of the time I will turn on him!

Straw men burning everywhere. Good grief.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Morris is at .499/.437/.889. Still a long ways to go but he has a shot at .500/.400/.900.

He's a career .742 FT shooter. So he's improved from the line this season just as much as he has from beyond the arc.
 

BigSoxFan

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Morris is at .499/.437/.889. Still a long ways to go but he has a shot at .500/.400/.900.

He's a career .742 FT shooter. So he's improved from the line this season just as much as he has from beyond the arc.
Just goes to show how much everything else has gone wrong when we’re 20-14 with Morris playing all-star basketball. He won’t be an all-star but he’s certainly playing like one and, yet, we still suck.
 

DJnVa

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Just goes to show how much everything else has gone wrong when we’re 20-14 with Morris playing all-star basketball. He won’t be an all-star but he’s certainly playing like one and, yet, we still suck.
We don't suck.

We're actually 4th in the NBA in DIFF at +6, better than the Warriors, better than the Raptors.

I'm sure though, THAT SOMEHOW, it's misleading in this case. Because of course it is.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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11 of those 15 teams would be in the lottery if the season ended today. Of the 4 playoff teams we faced during this stretch we are 1-3 and needed OT to get the win.
Question - have you spent the last few weeks wandering around local malls telling kids waiting in line for Santa that the guy they are going to see is really just a minimum wage earner with a fake beard and a red suit?

And beating Memphis at home is a good win. The Grizzlies aren't a "playoff" team because they are a win behind the eighth seed and three behind the fourth seed. They still may well make the playoffs and it may not be as the lowest seed.
 

benhogan

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Question - have you spent the last few weeks wandering around local malls telling kids waiting in line for Santa that the guy they are going to see is really just a minimum wage earner with a fake beard and a red suit?

And beating Memphis at home is a good win. The Grizzlies aren't a "playoff" team because they are a win behind the eighth seed and three behind the fourth seed. They still may well make the playoffs and it may not be as the lowest seed.
hilarious:notworthy:

on that note, great comeback/win. Coach is figuring crap out as we move along this season
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Question - have you spent the last few weeks wandering around local malls telling kids waiting in line for Santa that the guy they are going to see is really just a minimum wage earner with a fake beard and a red suit?

And beating Memphis at home is a good win. The Grizzlies aren't a "playoff" team because they are a win behind the eighth seed and three behind the fourth seed. They still may well make the playoffs and it may not be as the lowest seed.
Just trying to keep it real. I posted a month ago for people to not get to excited with wins in the next month due to the schedule handing W’s to us game after game.

As far as the Grizzlies go they’ve lost 8 of 11 and have been pretty much free falling into the lottery as their role players come back down to earth......they aren’t making the playoffs in the WC. Any road win in this league is a good win but when you’re a 4-pt favorite on the road these are the ones you’re supposed to win.
 

Eddie Jurak

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unnecessary dig/snark

Since I can't pinpoint when/where/how Al was injured I can only guess. Please strike my "claim of victory".
Sorry, I really didn't intend this to be as aggressive as it came off. Bottom line for me: your hypothesis is an interesting one, but I'm skeptical and more evidence/analysis is needed, at least for me.
Question - have you spent the last few weeks wandering around local malls telling kids waiting in line for Santa that the guy they are going to see is really just a minimum wage earner with a fake beard and a red suit?
Awesome.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Lots of intereting things to note from the Memphis win:
  • The Celtics fell into their unfortunate and characteristic habit of long stretches of indifferent play, but at least recovered this time.
  • Odd as it sounds, Guerschon Yabusele keyed this win. His line was nothing special (16 minutes, 3 points on 1-3 from three, 4 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 turnovers, 4 fouls), but he played the key 13-minute stretch from mid-3rd to mid-4th during which the Celtics cut the Memphis lead from 14 to 2 and was +11 for the game. Stevens went with him instead of Theis at backup center because Theis did nothing in the first half and (6 points, 1 assist, 1 point, -6) and Gasol ruined him in the post. Yabu came in and set screens, had the strength to not be bullied in the post, and had the mobility to be a presence on defense. After one offensive foul call, where I think they got him for a moving screen, and exasperated Stevens yelled "That's just good basketball" at the refs. Yabusele also had a decent couple of minutes in the first half against Houston, but Stevens opted to go with Theis in the second half and he was terrible (team worst -27 in 18 minutes). Maybe Yabu will carve out a small role for himself, at least while Baynes is out.
  • Down the stretch, Stevens went full veteran, with a lineup of Irving, Smart, Hayward, Morris, and Horford, and the move paid off. On the whole, not the best game for the yunger C's, although they did hold their own in their late 3rd/early 4th minutes. Tatum only scored 7 points, but had a pretty solid overall line even so (team leading 8 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals, a block, and +9 in 29 minutes).
  • Nice game from Hayward, who had 14 points and 4 assists to lead the bench in production and played down the stretch.
  • Smart had one of his winning plays. With just over a minute left and the Celtics holding a 4 point lead, he picked off an inbounds pass and, as he saild out of bounds with the ball, bounced it off on the player who had tried to inbound the ball and was still out of bounds.
  • Al matched a career high with 5 threes. During the last 5 minutes, Horford scored 9 points (of his 18 for the game) on 2 threes and a conventional 3-point play, all assisted by Kyrie.
  • Kyrie had an amazing 4th quarter. Entered with 7.5 minutes left and the Celtics down by 6. Only shot 3-6 and scored 10 points, but also added 5 assists during the last 4 minutes, setting up wide open lookss for Horford (3), Hayward, and Morris. (as noted above, assisted on or scored 23 of Boston's last 25 points).
 

lovegtm

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Lots of intereting things to note from the Memphis win:
  • The Celtics fell into their unfortunate and characteristic habit of long stretches of indifferent play, but at least recovered this time.
  • Odd as it sounds, Guerschon Yabusele keyed this win. His line was nothing special (16 minutes, 3 points on 1-3 from three, 4 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 turnovers, 4 fouls), but he played the key 13-minute stretch from mid-3rd to mid-4th during which the Celtics cut the Memphis lead from 14 to 2 and was +11 for the game. Stevens went with him instead of Theis at backup center because Theis did nothing in the first half and (6 points, 1 assist, 1 point, -6) and Gasol ruined him in the post. Yabu came in and set screens, had the strength to not be bullied in the post, and had the mobility to be a presence on defense. After one offensive foul call, where I think they got him for a moving screen, and exasperated Stevens yelled "That's just good basketball" at the refs. Yabusele also had a decent couple of minutes in the first half against Houston, but Stevens opted to go with Theis in the second half and he was terrible (team worst -27 in 18 minutes). Maybe Yabu will carve out a small role for himself, at least while Baynes is out.
  • Down the stretch, Stevens went full veteran, with a lineup of Irving, Smart, Hayward, Morris, and Horford, and the move paid off. On the whole, not the best game for the yunger C's, although they did hold their own in their late 3rd/early 4th minutes. Tatum only scored 7 points, but had a pretty solid overall line even so (team leading 8 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals, a block, and +9 in 29 minutes).
  • Nice game from Hayward, who had 14 points and 4 assists to lead the bench in production and played down the stretch.
  • Smart had one of his winning plays. With just over a minute left and the Celtics holding a 4 point lead, he picked off an inbounds pass and, as he saild out of bounds with the ball, bounced it off on the player who had tried to inbound the ball and was still out of bounds.
  • Al matched a career high with 5 threes. During the last 5 minutes, Horford scored 9 points (of his 18 for the game) on 2 threes and a conventional 3-point play, all assisted by Kyrie.
  • Kyrie had an amazing 4th quarter. Entered with 7.5 minutes left and the Celtics down by 6. Only shot 3-6 and scored 10 points, but also added 5 assists during the last 4 minutes, setting up wide open lookss for Horford (3), Hayward, and Morris. (as noted above, assisted on or scored 23 of Boston's last 25 points).
Haha, I was just about to post my own extensive list of notes. There was something about this game that was a lot more interesting than recent ones. I'll try not to duplicate anything you wrote:
  • Gasol and Conley are insanely disciplined, and the whole Memphis team is really cohesive on both ends. The biggest difference between the first half tonight and the times the Celtics have played bad teams was that Memphis's offense is patient and exploits any breakdown (which made the zone a bizarre choice at the end of the first half, but hey, experimentation).
  • Their defense also does a great job of collapsing without straying too far from the 3-point line, which killed the Celtics when the ball stopped going side-to-side. I can see how Memphis forces so many turnovers routinely: if you end up forced to the side without perfect positioning and spacing, you're done. To the Celtics' credit, they adjusted to this well in the 2nd half.
  • Every time the Celtics did a pointless or obvious double-team, in the first half, Memphis made the right play. I can see how they're over .500.
  • Following the above, this wasn't as good a win as some of the Celtics' others in terms of opponent quality, but it was a good one in terms of how dialed-in the opponent was.
  • Yabu didn't look nearly as lost on defense. His PnR coverage, timing, and recovery looked quite playable.
  • Tatum made two great plays in the post at 2:12 and 1:40 in the 3rd. He's becoming a problem on defense (in a good way)
  • really tough game to be missing Baynes and TL. Theis is unplayable right now, which is bizarre given his decent track record
  • Jaylen and Rozier weren't amazing, but they looked a lot more decisive on offense and more focused on making the right plays. Brad ran 4 or 5 plays with Jaylen as the primary option, either cutting into the post, or curling across the lane. He looked good on those, and it's something to build from.
 

DJnVa

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Just trying to keep it real. I posted a month ago for people to not get to excited with wins in the next month due to the schedule handing W’s to us game after game.
They've also beat Philly twice, Toronto, Milwaukee, OKC, etc. It's not like the only wins are coming against shit teams. They're just not consistent.
 

lexrageorge

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Sometimes I get an "It only counts if they lose" vibe from this forum.

Anyway, a graphic in The Globe showed that the Celtics were 7-7 against teams over 0.500; this was after the loss to Houston.
 

Jimbodandy

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Sometimes I get an "It only counts if they lose" vibe from this forum.

Anyway, a graphic in The Globe showed that the Celtics were 7-7 against teams over 0.500; this was after the loss to Houston.
It's fun watching them figure it out, at least for some of us.

Sure, a cakewalk to the finals would have been nice too. But there are a lot of interesting characters and good players on this team, the vast majority of whom are still learning what they can do. It's like watching a group of kids grow up.

Anyone who isn't enjoying this season doesn't like fun.
 

DJnVa

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Sometimes I get an "It only counts if they lose" vibe from this forum.

Anyway, a graphic in The Globe showed that the Celtics were 7-7 against teams over 0.500; this was after the loss to Houston.
Last year they were 25-21 versus over .500 teams. Only 4 teams this season are actually over .500 against over .500 teams. Houston is 13-6 against them, but 7-9 against teams under .500

The issue this year is that they are only at a .652 winning percentage against under .500 teams, whereas last year we were .833, which team me speaks to lack of focus, inconsistency, trying out lineups.
 

lovegtm

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It's fun watching them figure it out, at least for some of us.

Sure, a cakewalk to the finals would have been nice too. But there are a lot of interesting characters and good players on this team, the vast majority of whom are still learning what they can do. It's like watching a group of kids grow up.

Anyone who isn't enjoying this season doesn't like fun.
Love this. And the ceiling if they do figure it out is a championship, which adds a lot more to the fun of the process than if they were a normal young team.
 

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It's fun watching them figure it out, at least for some of us.

Sure, a cakewalk to the finals would have been nice too. But there are a lot of interesting characters and good players on this team, the vast majority of whom are still learning what they can do. It's like watching a group of kids grow up.

Anyone who isn't enjoying this season doesn't like fun.
Amen. I'm thoroughly enjoying it, even with the occasional bad loss.
 

Imbricus

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Only shot 3-6 and scored 10 points, but also added 5 assists during the last 4 minutes
This is one part of Kyrie's game that appears to have really evolved since last year. He's at 6.6 assists per game this year, 7.2 in December, and was 5.1 last year. More than that, he seems to be displaying a knack for drawing defenders to him and then passing out at the last minute to a wide-open teammate. He's a no-brainer for the Celts to resign to a max deal this off-season, unless his kneecap spontaneously combusts or something.
 

Van Everyman

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That was a great win in part because they finally seemed to figure out how to get guys other than Kyrie to step up. Seems to me that where the C’s are still less effective than last year is when Kyrie isn’t playing out of his mind. I don’t have the data but last year it seemed like they usually lost games when Kyrie went over 30 – when they weren’t diversified. This year, he’s distributing the ball more but they need him to be otherworldly – and guys beyond Morris don’t seem to be stepping up when he isn’t.

Maybe it’s a process. First, get the lineup firing on all cylinders with the A team, then figure out rotations. But we need games where we win because Al, Tatum or Jaylen stepped up when they needed it most. This seemed like a start.
 

the moops

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The most notable lack of explosion for Hayward comes in the the fast break dunks he has. It's disheartening to see him at 6'8" barely get the ball over the rim
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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I don't think Marcus Morris is the greatest player in the NBA or anything, but if his shooting is close to real, he'll get paid just because he's at the scarcest position in the league.
Just want to point out that if Morris makes his next 4 FTA, he'll be at 50/44/90 for the season - He's going to get paid.
 

DJnVa

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The most notable lack of explosion for Hayward comes in the the fast break dunks he has. It's disheartening to see him at 6'8" barely get the ball over the rim
This season 3.3% of his FGA are dunks, about half of what it was in his last season in Utah. However, 5 years ago he was only at 3.7%.

This has got to be the last mental/physical hurdle he has. The fact he has no minutes restrictions now is nice, but I wonder what the split is between mental/physical on those things. Likely we won't know until it goes away. If in March we start seeing the old GH then maybe we get stories about what this time of the season was like.
 

bigq

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That was a great win in part because they finally seemed to figure out how to get guys other than Kyrie to step up.
Agree that others stepped up including Horford, Morris, Hayward, Smart and even Yabu. However Kyrie was essentially a one man wrecking crew in the 4th quarter either scoring or assisting on every basket the Celtics had except for one over the last 6:28 of the game. To me it seems this team only goes as far as Kyrie takes them.
 

DJnVa

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Agree that others stepped up including Horford, Morris, Hayward, Smart and even Yabu. However Kyrie was essentially a one man wrecking crew in the 4th quarter either scoring or assisting on every basket the Celtics had except for one over the last 6:28 of the game. To me it seems this team only goes as far as Kyrie takes them.
Eh, we'll see if that continues as the season goes on. In the interim, that's not a problem for me. Let him be the alpha and others find their places.