Wow - I had mentioned this (I think in the Semi thread) a bit ago. Maybe I can get a job breaking down film or something for Hanlen.
Celtics Draft Jayson Tatum at #3
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Hanlan's comment that it's easier to speed guys up than slow them down made me wonder if that's what's starting to happen with Rozier, that he's learning how to slow down.
The more I watch of him, the more I think he's a product of "someone has to put up numbers, even on bad teams syndrome." That's not to say he's a bad player, he's just getting more playing time than he deserves because he's on a terrible team. He can also score so he's going to have a long career in the NBA as a microwave type, instant offense off the bench. It wouldn't be too hard to hide his defensive shortcomings if he's coming off the bench 20-25 minutes a night.
He's like the anti Marcus Smart. He looks good but the team results are not so much.
And on another note, the ROY award is far from decided. Mitchell has been averaging over 23 points a game since Dec 1st. If he continues that the rest of the season, he may just have a chance. If he keeps up his per game averages since then, he'll end up at 21.0 ppg. He's up to 18.8 ppg now, while Simmons is down to 16.9.
If it comes down to 21.0/3.5/3.5/1.5 spg on .450/.360/.850 shooting vs 16.9/8.2/7.3/1.9 spg on .513/.000/.557 shooting, that will be something. This rookie class is awesome. I really don't think Tatum has any chance at all. It's a 2 man race.
If it comes down to 21.0/3.5/3.5/1.5 spg on .450/.360/.850 shooting vs 16.9/8.2/7.3/1.9 spg on .513/.000/.557 shooting, that will be something. This rookie class is awesome. I really don't think Tatum has any chance at all. It's a 2 man race.
I'd call it a 4-man race. I don't think you can count out Lonzo at this point either. He's having a very strong rookie campaign, even considering the shooting. With a potentially fractured field, there is an angle for Tatum to win based on his being the third or fourth best player on a contender instead of the second best player on a borderline playoff team (Simmons and Mitchell are definitely no better than second best on their teams). Either way, I don't really care about the award. At this point, I'd rather have Tatum than any of the other rookies.
A great (and lengthy) piece on Tatum, how he came to be drafted, what influences there are on his life, and what how his teammates and coaches have watched him grow.
Thanks for the link. I think beyond the positive reviews being reported, the best thing about the article to me is that he is open to listening to those around him. I remember hearing Garnett say that he would only help those who were willing to listen. Hearing Morris (et al) say that he's in that "open to listening" category is really reassuring - the Celtics have had their share of uber athletes who maybe didn't listen enough and didn't achieve as much as they might have.
I also have to say that one of the smartest (to me) things I've heard a young pro athlete do is install his mom/family in the same building with him. Close enough to be there and exert influence, but not in the next room to crowd his space.
With all the preaching at the end of that article about making sure he takes care of himself, eats well, gets good sleep, I can't believe they let him go and have a kid!
Is it just me or has Tatum started bringing some new handle to the games? Seems like he’s doing this left-right back and forth shake-and-bake where he can either step back or drive.
Both types of shot are obviously staples of his, but the little back and forth dribble seems new. And it seems like there’s some new dribble swagger to it.
Thoughts from the smart people?
Both types of shot are obviously staples of his, but the little back and forth dribble seems new. And it seems like there’s some new dribble swagger to it.
Thoughts from the smart people?
Tatum is definitely adding new wrinkles. His personal trainer, Drew Hanlan, says as much at the end of the podcast.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-30elBSZRZQ
Also, Tatum shot 80% from the 3pt line during three separate pre-draft private workouts, this should lay to rest any question on who Danny had at #1.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-30elBSZRZQ
Also, Tatum shot 80% from the 3pt line during three separate pre-draft private workouts, this should lay to rest any question on who Danny had at #1.
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Tatum has seemed to hit a small rough stretch. Everything is down fairly significantly in January. It’s been short and was expected so not a big deal yet but the team seems to be suffering without having him there as a reliable option on offense (and Jaylen too).
I think the problem I see is his off ball movement. He just kind of hangs out on the permimeter without setting lots of screens or making cuts. The lack of movement doesn’t help him or his teammate get open, and makes him disappear for stretches. Then he’ll suddenly exert himself but it will tend to be more on ball, iso exertion. Sometimes it works and he makes it happen and sometimes it seems forced like he made up his mind before that he was driving/shooting this time despite the way the play developed. I’d like to see him work to get the ball in and out of his hands on more possessions to help the ball movement and get more involved. This is kind of a team wide problem but unlike some of the other guys Tatum can shoot, dribble, and drive, so he needs to learn to move and pass.
I think the problem I see is his off ball movement. He just kind of hangs out on the permimeter without setting lots of screens or making cuts. The lack of movement doesn’t help him or his teammate get open, and makes him disappear for stretches. Then he’ll suddenly exert himself but it will tend to be more on ball, iso exertion. Sometimes it works and he makes it happen and sometimes it seems forced like he made up his mind before that he was driving/shooting this time despite the way the play developed. I’d like to see him work to get the ball in and out of his hands on more possessions to help the ball movement and get more involved. This is kind of a team wide problem but unlike some of the other guys Tatum can shoot, dribble, and drive, so he needs to learn to move and pass.
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I think part of what you describe is a function of who is on the floor with him and how he is rewarded for his effort. I still don't see Smart or Rozier doing much by way of passing to Tatum. I don't know if they view him as a threat to their own ability to make the money, or deliver the big play, or whatever. But it has to be hard for him mentally to continue to do the things you mention in terms of movement, screens, etc. if he knows they aren't going to get him the ball.
Does anyone know: Is there a way to track where a players assists are coming from? In other words how can I find out what percentage of Smart's assists are going to Tatum, and the opposite what percentage of Tatum's scoring is coming from Smart or Rozier?
But yes, his movement does seem to be declining - and I think with it some of his in game rhythm as well.
People keep mentioning the rookie wall, but I’m wondering if what we’re seeing might more accurately be described as growing pains. As in, he’s in the process of taking a step forward but things aren’t there yet, which is still a form of progress and means he should work through it.
Basically, I feel like he’s not seeing himself as being one of the “big boys” and as such isn’t bodying up when he drives. (Although as @Blacken has pointed out to me, he still only weighs like twelve pounds...)
When he does a good job going to the hoop aggressively, he flies right past people. He gets in trouble when he eye into a position when he should be bodying up and driving with his shoulder. This also leads to turnovers because he tries to “protect” the ball from defenders by holding it away from them instead of bringing it into his body as the protection, and then it gets slapped away. Plus the lack of drawn fouls called.
He still is running some aggressive drives, so I don’t know if I see the rookie wall. If anything, I see him making more aggressive drives, but then fucking up on the ones where he stops short of laying into contact.
But if he keeps doing it, he should find it, yeah? Or is he still too small at 19? And if so, how should they approach his learning arc?
Basically, I feel like he’s not seeing himself as being one of the “big boys” and as such isn’t bodying up when he drives. (Although as @Blacken has pointed out to me, he still only weighs like twelve pounds...)
When he does a good job going to the hoop aggressively, he flies right past people. He gets in trouble when he eye into a position when he should be bodying up and driving with his shoulder. This also leads to turnovers because he tries to “protect” the ball from defenders by holding it away from them instead of bringing it into his body as the protection, and then it gets slapped away. Plus the lack of drawn fouls called.
He still is running some aggressive drives, so I don’t know if I see the rookie wall. If anything, I see him making more aggressive drives, but then fucking up on the ones where he stops short of laying into contact.
But if he keeps doing it, he should find it, yeah? Or is he still too small at 19? And if so, how should they approach his learning arc?
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I've also noticed that Tatum avoids contact on his drives. That's probably just a natural reaction to someone as athletic as he is - he could pretty much avoid contact so whenever he wanted so why bother? He'll get better at this as he plays more and gets stronger he sees how important it is to be able to take contact and finish. Also as he watches JB do it.
First world problems I know.
Its anecdotal but there are several recent instances of Tatum hesitating in one on one situations where it appeared that , with a more aggressive approach, he could have easily broken the defender down. For example, he had David West one on one at the top of the key Saturday night and no defenders in the paint. A more experienced player would have tried to take it to the hole but Tatum deferred. As you guys point out, his reluctance to capitalize on these mismatches is simply from lack of experience. It's likely that as he gets stronger and more seasoned, he will start to seize these opportunities.
Really enjoyed this Tatum article on The Ringer
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/1/31/16953104/jayson-tatum-boston-celtics
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/1/31/16953104/jayson-tatum-boston-celtics
I agree that he has some hesitancy in his game. There was that play down the stretch in Denver where he had his man beat but instead dribbled out, passed the ball and the shot clock ran out. It was a bad play; it was a rookie play. But therein is the rub. Despite how poised he's looked so far, he's still a 19 yo rookie. e's exceeded my Y1 expectations by a wide margin. He's not a project with a huge ceiling; he came in a borderline NBA All-Star and still has a huge ceiling.
Prior to Hayward's injury, I think the prevailing sentiment was to let the kid learn the ropes playing a lesser role, with maybe the hope that he turned into the 2nd unit scorer. As circumstance would have it, he wasn't afforded the opportunity and was a primary option pretty much out of the gate. He's now the starting SF and second scoring option on the #1 team in the East (and perhaps the favorite to represent the East in the Finals). This has all been accomplished with only minor growing pains to date (there are about a handful of games - recent GS included - where I thought to myself he looks like a rookie out there tonight).
I think that despite how awesome he has been, we have to also keep in mind exactly where in his career he is. If he follows Jaylen and takes a big step forward in year two, watch out.
I am always surprised when he does not get called for an offensive foul when he pushes off while driving to the hoop. Seems blatant at times
Personally, I never accept simple regression as an explanation, as I find it boringly simple. Find a selfish teammate and BLAME HIM FOR ALL LIFE'S FLAWSOr he’s putting too much pressure on himself and it’s in his head now...
It was a scary-looking way-off miss, but then again, for a while there Smart was averaging about one three-point airball per game.
I think that both he and Brown are being coached to not force the issue. Make a move, maybe two. If it's not there, swing it. Both will force once they get in the restricted area, as they should. But outside of that, they're not forcing much. In general, I agree with the approach.
What a great line last night. 27 points, while only 0-1 from 3. 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 steals, and 0 turnovers
I missed the game, but first thing from the box score that popped (besides it’s basic beauty in being so much of what I would have hoped for with all the guys out and the others stepping up) was the lack of threes despite putting up 27.
So what went down? Is this a function of him actually adjusting to being a primary option rather than waiting on the wings to hawk threes?
(I’m really irritated I was forced to miss this game since it looks like exactly what many of us hoped would happen under such conditions did, and I didn’t get to see. Do any descriptions and explanation would’ve much appreciated.)
Watching the highlights, he made a ton of long jumpers. In general, you’d probably rather no one shot those, but his shot is so smooth he makes them look easy.
Pretty much. If I’m recalling correctly (there was a lot of fun stuff happening in the game), he was getting the ball more often running off screens or otherwise already in motion, and he was attacking pretty aggressively. It was a lot of mid-range jumpers but he’s so long and his handle and balance are so good that when he gets moving forward and the defender moving backward, it’s guaranteed that the ensuing shot will be a clean look.
His summer can be spent on strength, finishing with his left hand, and backing up those off the bounce moves to the 3 point line and shooting under pressure. The current skills are insane, we’re talking slight refinements.
If you look at his shot chart (don't think it can be copied but go to ESPN game summary and you can find it: http://www.espn.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400975513), he only took 3 long jumpers.
He's getting run off the 3 point line (plenty of tape on him) plus he was a primary creator so he went to the basket.
Wasn't there a discussion/informal bet about whether Tatum was going to score more than 25 points in a game this year?
He's getting run off the 3 point line (plenty of tape on him) plus he was a primary creator so he went to the basket.
Wasn't there a discussion/informal bet about whether Tatum was going to score more than 25 points in a game this year?
Yeah, that was me.
Although I will admit, I didn't think it would happen like this. I assumed he would be getting less time overall, but in an odd blowout here and there he would light it up.
In fairness to you, you probably would have been right were it not for the fluke injury.
Yeah--it's almost like he got "better" than we thought which means they relied on him with starters so much that he didn't need to score as much. Now he goes: 13, 17, 10, 12, 15, 14, 13 or something, instead of what I was thinking: 6, 9, 4, 12, 7, 22, 6, 8...
NBA.com highlights cover a good chunk of his scoring:
http://www.nba.com/games/20180202/ATLBOS#/video
Shots were a combination of things, but many originated with Tatum getting the ball outside the 3 point line and either driving hard all the way to the basket or finding space to get off a mid range jump shot (he also found TR open for 3 off similar action). He also had a few nice fast break finishes and one strong spin move in the up tempo half court set.
Only a Duke fan is capable of taking the shine off a win like tonight.
Ugh, what a tedious lot.
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To be fair, Duke fans have been rooting for Tatum for a long time compared to Celtics fans. He was an institution there for ages (and cost the boosters a lot to acquire too).
Is it just me, or does Tatum seem to get away with a bunch of offensive fouls whenever he drives to the basket? Looks like he is always pushing an arm away or wrapping his arms around a defender .
He gets called for a lot of offensive fouls on push-offs too, so it's not just you. They just can't call 'em all.
Those hooks and arm bars get called a lot around the league and also don't get called plenty. As lovegtm wrote, they can't call them all. They won't.
Good point. If they're not giving you calls, might as well see how far you can push it the other way.
I thought he did a great job of mixing it up between drives and taking jump shots. They couldn't really contain him on either.
If you look around the league, most of the great scorers use their off arm to create space (James Harden on every drive for example) and the guys that don't do the same thing with their shoulder. Most of them aren't called until the arm gets too far away from the body. Or Marcus Smart is the defender.
Brown and Tatum without Kyrie will be must see TV for the Port Cellar contingent. Will they both go for 20?
He went through a noticeable "down" phase where he really seemed to be struggling. Not getting to the rim, losing the ball on drives, shot not falling, settling for lots of midrange stuff.
Since then he's come back with a vengeance. Driving through contact (something tended to struggle with even when playing well before), hitting the 3, really seeing the floor well and hitting open teammates.
Major, and badly needed, turnaround.
The league made adjustments to him, and he made some of his own. He wasn't sneaking past people with those extendo arms as easily anymore, so now he's taking it at them and finishing through contact. He's starting to make year two adjustments before year one is over. I can't even fathom what a pro offseason program is going to do for this guy.
I had argued previously that I didn't think he was hitting a rookie wall so much as taking the next step and struggling because the next step is harder. It now looks like he's settling into moving beyond that rough growing stage.
Which is awesome. It's like he's progressing on the arc of someone now starting their second season.
Which is awesome. It's like he's progressing on the arc of someone now starting their second season.