Celtics City - HBO/Bill Simmons Doc

[PedroKsBambino]

It's very hard to compare across eras - the 1986 team would ahve been huge, and slow, and weak physically relative to 2008 let alone 2024 teams. The defensive rules are different, handchecking is different, conditioning is different, use of 3pt is different, etc. So what I try to do is ask "how was this team relative to others of its era" and assume that across eras, elite players would always adapt to rules/style of play. One can disagree with that and say "today's players are just better" and I get that - but personally don't find that an interesting approach.

So, that stated, the biggest thing for the 1986 team is they are a dominant offense and fast-break team relative to any recent Celtics team. The 2008 team was, imo, the best defensive team (though clutch-time 2024 Celtics were close). For me, the thing the 1986 Celtics would have done is rebounded, run, and beaten up anyone after them. If you look at the 2008 Celts, Garnett would have been able to stick with McHale....but Bird would have destroyed them, and Perkins would have struggled with Parish's running. They are a bit like this year's roster in that the other (non-Walton) bench guys were less great players than great fits---Wedman and Sichting are not that unlike Hauser and PP. And instead of versatile Al, you have occasionally dominant Walton.

Any combination of those would be fun to watch play, and all were quite dominant in their season. But for me, the 1986 Celtics had a combintion of elite play and versatility offensively that would have put them over the top

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

It's very hard to compare across eras - the 1986 team would ahve been huge, and slow, and weak physically relative to 2008 let alone 2024 teams. The defensive rules are different, handchecking is different, conditioning is different, use of 3pt is different, etc. So what I try to do is ask "how was this team relative to others of its era" and assume that across eras, elite players would always adapt to rules/style of play. One can disagree with that and say "today's players are just better" and I get that - but personally don't find that an interesting approach.

So, that stated, the biggest thing for the 1986 team is they are a dominant offense and fast-break team relative to any recent Celtics team. The 2008 team was, imo, the best defensive team (though clutch-time 2024 Celtics were close). For me, the thing the 1986 Celtics would have done is rebounded, run, and beaten up anyone after them. If you look at the 2008 Celts, Garnett would have been able to stick with McHale....but Bird would have destroyed them, and Perkins would have struggled with Parish's running. They are a bit like this year's roster in that the other (non-Walton) bench guys were less great players than great fits---Wedman and Sichting are not that unlike Hauser and PP. And instead of versatile Al, you have occasionally dominant Walton.

Any combination of those would be fun to watch play, and all were quite dominant in their season. But for me, the 1986 Celtics had a combintion of elite play and versatility offensively that would have put them over the top

People don't realize how amazing the 86 Celtics were as a passing team. When this (or last) seasons team is cooking and they're passing the ball around the court, that's what the 86 team looked like on an average night. They were always looking for an extra pass. That entire team was like wizards with the basketball, especially on the fast break.

 

[54thMA]

The latest episode was a tough watch, between the Len Bias situation to the decline of the big three.

Felt badly for Walton, his comment about "I haven't come out of the darkness" or words to that effect were haunting.

The next episode is going to be worse "The Rick Pitino era".

Good Lord.

 

[RoDaddy]

We knew headed in this was going to be a tough episode to watch and it sure was! Nothing could be more depressing to start than the Bias story and hearing from his mother and best friend - horrible and tragic. And it's effect on the C's on the court was pretty devastating, not only losing a likely great player for the next 10 years but contributing - probably a lot - to the wear down and injuries for the whole still-in-their-prime-hall-of-fame frontline. Bias' likely 35 minutes a night could've been subtracted from their play load. McHales injury maybe never happens if he was playing less minutes. And for some reason they didn't mention Chief's ankles but there were many nights where Bird and McHale and others had to carry him off the court. Plus watching our hated rivals beat us in this injured state where we still came close. Just a dark episode without much light, save for the historic Bird-Dominique 4th quarter. Even the impressive rise of Reggie Lewis was mostly lost on us since we know that tragic ending as well.

 

[runnels3]

The DJ game winner in 1985 Game 4 deserved some love.

I was in the Azores and was desperate for a score. No media there back then. So I call the army base on the islands and the guy reports "DJ wins it at the buzzer!" Great times. Life revolves around the Cs wherever you are, especially at the playoffs.

 

[InstaFace]

I was in the Azores and was desperate for a score.

I definitely thought this post was about to take a film-noir turn.

 

[The Social Chair]

The Pacers game 5 and the Portland game get talked about a lot, but this game against the Bulls in 1991 is my favorite late career moment from Bird. He just owns Horace Grant in the OT.

View: https://youtu.be/tzKwuk7jXdk?si=Q6m4HVWefnnZx5VR

 

[nattysez]

I'm glad Jackie Mac is getting so much run in this series.

 

[Van Everyman]

The Pacers game 5 and the Portland game get talked about a lot, but this game against the Bulls in 1991 is my favorite late career moment from Bird. He just owns Horace Grant in the OT.

View: https://youtu.be/tzKwuk7jXdk?si=Q6m4HVWefnnZx5VR

That made me happy, thanks for sharing.

I'm glad Jackie Mac is getting so much run in this series.

On Michael Holley’s wrap up interview with her on this week’s Celtics City show, he revealed that Jackie did the Bird interview we’re watching in the series as well. Just a total Hall of Famer.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Another great episode. It was also a monument to Bird and all his achievements as a Celtic - I thought they did a good job.

Trader Danny is real!

 

[Van Everyman]

Trader Danny is re

That whole sequence with Ainge agitating for Red to trade Bird/McHale/Parrish is just an incredible setup for the Billy King Heist.

Also: the Red-McHale Christmas Eve party story is gold. It’s 100% not surprising guys like McHale and Bird played as hard as they did for him.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Was multitasking during this episode but did they address Bias’ death directly with Bird? I may have missed it but would have loved to hear from him directly.

 

[JoeSuit]

I definitely thought this post was about to take a film-noir turn.

This reply deserved a lotta bit of love.

 

[Merkle's Boner]

So whats the verdict on the Isiah/Bird blowup? Do people generally buy that Isiah was joking? I highly doubt it, although Bird handled it very well. Also, how the hell did Rodman avoid going through the wringer. Guess he was just always considered a nutjob.

 

[bosockboy]

So whats the verdict on the Isiah/Bird blowup? Do people generally buy that Isiah was joking? I highly doubt it, although Bird handled it very well. Also, how the hell did Rodman avoid going through the wringer. Guess he was just always considered a nutjob.

Larry just let him off the hook, he absolutely meant it.

 

[bosockboy]

That was a tough watch.

No mention of the driveway in French Lick, maybe Bird asked for that to be left out.

Also surprised not showing Bird on the Dream Team in ‘92.

 

[lexrageorge]

So whats the verdict on the Isiah/Bird blowup? Do people generally buy that Isiah was joking? I highly doubt it, although Bird handled it very well. Also, how the hell did Rodman avoid going through the wringer. Guess he was just always considered a nutjob.

The recording of the locker room interview clearly showed Thomas was laughing. Whether that means he was joking or not is debatable, but I don't think he intended to create the shitstorm that ensued. The press conference was dumb, but that wasn't the players' idea.

That was a tough watch.

No mention of the driveway in French Lick, maybe Bird asked for that to be left out.

Also surprised not showing Bird on the Dream Team in ‘92.

I was surprised about that as well, but it was probably an easy choice to edit that segment out. The Dream Team wasn't a highlight of Bird's career by any means (he was cooked), and it really didn't have anything to do with the Celtics.

It would be cool if in the next episode they showed a 5 second clip of the Bird/Orr/Ted interview, but my guess is that it will be hard to fit that in while keeping the story moving along.

 

[bankshot1]

So whats the verdict on the Isiah/Bird blowup? Do people generally buy that Isiah was joking? I highly doubt it, although Bird handled it very well. Also, how the hell did Rodman avoid going through the wringer. Guess he was just always considered a nutjob.

At the time I thought Rodman and IT/OG were sore sport assholes who dealt poorly with losing to slow white Larry Bird so they trash talked him. Bird probably thought they were assholes too, but understood its a game and shit gets said, so he kept it private.

I watched the Bias episode last night and the one thing I didn't know or question was that Bird in '86, right after winning the championship was ready to groom Bias as the next link/his successor in the championship chain. Larry was still relatively healthy and way too much of an alpha in that world to easily cede his alpha role. But maybe he was looking 3-4 years down the line. It surprised me.

 

[runnels3]

I found the parts focusing on Black Celtics fans during the 80s were fascinating. Boston had a larger percentage of African-Americans living in the city than LA, yet the Lakers were the team for Black fans, and the Black fans from Boston were judged for rooting for their hometown team. How New Edition had to have the Lakers featured in their music video because their audience would react negatively to the Celtics being featured.

I was in Atlanta and had to continually refute the argument that the Celtics were a racist team because their stars were white. It wasn't enough that we had two black stars in the starting lineup and a black coach.

 

[bankshot1]

I was in Atlanta and had to continually refute the argument that the Celtics were a racist team because their stars were white. It wasn't enough that we had two black stars in the starting lineup and a black coach.

I was living in Carroll Gardens Brooklyn (a mostly Italian neighborhood that was subject to gentrification) in the 80s and there was a neighborhood gang of kids (about 20+ YO) who wore Celts jackets as a form of ID. They loved that a team with so many white players kicked ass. There's no getting around the white/black element and racism that got bred from the the 80s Celts.

 

[Van Everyman]

That was a tough watch.

No mention of the driveway in French Lick, maybe Bird asked for that to be left out.

Also surprised not showing Bird on the Dream Team in ‘92.

I was surprised about that as well, but it was probably an easy choice to edit that segment out. The Dream Team wasn't a highlight of Bird's career by any means (he was cooked), and it really didn't have anything to do with the Celtics.

I know I’m a broken record but all that was in Magic & Bird, and it’s gone into a lot of depth there. It’s still streaming on Max so I highly recommend that anyone who hasn’t seen it watch it.

I’m actually glad they aren’t just reusing all of the footage from the Bird, Russell and 30-for-30 documentaries for this series – I was a little worried when they showed that racist shitbag at the Garden and some archival footage of the Bird interview in M&B earlier in this series that we were going to get a lot of overlap. But they’ve done a nice job steering clear of that while revealing some new aspects of the internal team dynamics.

There is some heartache still yet to come: Reggie most obviously but also Pierce being stabbed, KG’s injury in 2009, Ron fucking Artest.

 

[bosockboy]

Reliving all of these eras makes you realize how precious championships are.

They are in the sweet spot of a championship window right now, and really need to get #19.

Opportunities like this are rare.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

So whats the verdict on the Isiah/Bird blowup? Do people generally buy that Isiah was joking? I highly doubt it, although Bird handled it very well. Also, how the hell did Rodman avoid going through the wringer. Guess he was just always considered a nutjob.

I thought that I read somewhere that Isiah said that he never meant it but was also trying to be a good teammate by backing up Rodman. Whether this is true or not, I can't say but Isiah played against Bird for a long time, I doubt that he actually thought he was just "a good player". What Rodman was thinking? Who knows.

I did see that Bird/Reggie Miller/Thomas Indiana doc and if you can find it, it's well worth watching.

 

[Manny'sPS3]

What Rodman was thinking? Who knows.

I'll defend Rodman. What a terrible loss for Detroit, who were dead set at not only beating the Celtics, but maiming them. I'm going off memory, but Rodman likely drew Bird as an assignment and was super frustrated. Sure, he's a loon - but after that series, as a competitive athlete? Who really cares other than Curly Haired Boyfriends and rage filled 15 year old white kids? (I was the latter and hated Isaiah for the rest of his career and even rooted for his failure with the NYK.) Bird knew it was said in the heat of the moment. What black superstar NBA athlete wouldn't be a little pissed off at Larry Bird? I think those who faced him knew he deserved the accolades and attention. If he was 25% less as a player, would he have received similar attention? (Probably - the great white hope usually does) I guess Luka is the answer to that question...

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I'll defend Rodman. What a terrible loss for Detroit, who were dead set at not only beating the Celtics, but maiming them. I'm going off memory, but Rodman likely drew Bird as an assignment and was super frustrated. Sure, he's a loon - but after that series, as a competitive athlete? Who really cares other than Curly Haired Boyfriends and rage filled 15 year old white kids? (I was the latter and hated Isaiah for the rest of his career and even rooted for his failure with the NYK.) Bird knew it was said in the heat of the moment. What black superstar NBA athlete wouldn't be a little pissed off at Larry Bird? I think those who faced him knew he deserved the accolades and attention. If he was 25% less as a player, would he have received similar attention? (Probably - the great white hope usually does)

I totally buy that, absolutely. How many of us have played sports, lost by a little to a much better team and say the other guys were just lucky”? Only to think on it a few days later and realize they were better than you.

I’m sure most of us had. And I think you’re right that that happened to Rodman.

But man, did this blow up. Bird wasn’t even my favorite player at the time and a. I knew this was bullshit and b. I carried the same grudge against Isiah for a long time.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

The Isiah/Rodman blowing up the way it did made perfect sense given how much love was lost between the two clubs. As Chief said, they disliked those Pistons the most and the episode showed why. So throw in a salty quote with racial overtones about a star from a City where race is the thirdest rail and you can see how it got so big.

As a sidenote, I know Sprtsguy33 needed him for content but he is clearly trolling Boston fans - we not only get CHB bloviating about whatever but he is wearing shorts given the interview took place during warm weather. They clearly could have spared us viewers revealing that much of Shank's pasty, translucent skin. He is gross enough fully clothed.

 

[Van Everyman]

Wikipedia reminds me that when Larry resigned as HC of the Pacers he was replaced by ... Isiah.

(Completely unsurprisingly, Larry was an awesome coach)

 

[nattysez]

On Michael Holley’s wrap up interview with her on this week’s Celtics City show, he revealed that Jackie did the Bird interview we’re watching in the series as well. Just a total Hall of Famer.

Thanks for this. You could very briefly hear the interviewer's voice at one point, and I was wondering who was doing the interview.

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

I cried intensely watching this last episode

I thought Bird, McHale and especially Robert were so genuine

Plus I knew most of the Dead story but I never heard that Larry & Jerry sat and spoke. I guess they knew it was to be each other. Seemingly from disparate worlds but the world will never forget either of them.

The two most important icons of my life. Jerry Garcia starting later in life as the Dead might have saved my wife from herself in her last 4-5 very tough years of increased depression & mental terror.

Larry is underrated today fwiw. Sure these are green flavored glasses but I’ve never seen anyone give so much. He’s *still* the guy who elevated others more than even Lebron.

I was in a shit hole bar when Magic hit the hook. I didn’t even watch the strippers. Only time in my life I threw a chair.

 

[8slim]

This has been a joy to watch.

One part I really enjoyed in the latest episode was Bill's Dad talking about how much he and Bill loved spending time with each other at the games. He then said "that's why I got the tickets". It was a very touching moment.

The best part of sports, IMHO, is following it with loved ones.

 

[Kliq]

Another great episode, I think they did a great job selling how big of a deal Bird was, the magic that the 80s Celtics encapsulated and the sadness that came with watching them break down. I second the post on how hard it was to listen to Bias' mom, almost 40 years later.

He's featured a lot in the documentary as a guest but I kind of wish they did more with Parish in terms of talking about his impact as a player. They did a great job highlighting McHale, but I feel like a little bit more time could be spent on how great Parish was. The 80s Celtics beat Moses, Kareem and then Sampson/Olajuwon for their titles, how do you think they did that? Chief was there doing all the dirty work and doing his best to contain some of the best Centers in NBA history. He rebounded, he protected the basket, he could score with his sneaky turnaround jumper and he did it all with a freakish, machine-like consistency for years and years. It was kind of funny seeing Bird/McHale break down and thinking that Parish still had another 7-8 years of playing in the league.

I would have even settled for a segment on when he was arrested for getting a package of weed mailed to his house in Weston and people showed up outside the courthouse in Waltham with signs reading "Inhale to the Chief."

 

[BigSoxFan]

Reggie Lewis episode tonight. I was too young for Bias. And he hadn’t yet played a game for the Celtics. Reggie was different.

…damn.

Another tremendous episode.

 

[TripleOT]

Tragedy at times strikes in threes. Pierce not surviving the 11 stab wounds would have been especially cruel.

Reggie Lewis was so beloved in Boston. The ineptitude from the medical professionals was staggering.

Antoine Walker does not get enough credit for helping to bring PP along, with his willingness to cede the spotlight after some individual success as The Man on bad teams.

I guess The Jungle Celtics will be part of the next episode. After the Pitino disaster, I really enjoyed that team

 

[Oil Can Dan]

I was in my 20s throughout the 90s. That was a really tough watch. All of it. I’m surprised about how emotional I got, but damn, that was a hard watch. These are all so well done.

is it next Monday yet?

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Yeah this one was all bad vibes but it was so well done. Chief continues to be a low-key MVP. X man was funny too doing Red.

Also, I would give Pitino credit for showing up here but he can't help himself - he needs an audience.

Lots of pundit takes in this one which is the only negative ex Jackie Mac who was a big part of the Lewis segment (and is always very solid). But Ryen had to show up eventually.

 

[nattysez]

Ripped my heart out and then kicked me in the balls for an hour. Fucking Pitino.

Another superb episode.

 

[Euclis20]

Tragedy at times strikes in threes. Pierce not surviving the 11 stab wounds would have been especially cruel.

Reggie Lewis was so beloved in Boston. The ineptitude from the medical professionals was staggering.

Antoine Walker does not get enough credit for helping to bring PP along, with his willingness to cede the spotlight after some individual success as The Man on bad teams.

I guess The Jungle Celtics will be part of the next episode. After the Pitino disaster, I really enjoyed that team

+1 on the bold. I'm glad for him that he got his championship in Miami, but it would've been nice if he could've gotten it here. Him and Smart are high up on my list of favorite Boston athletes, love those guys that are flawed but have their own style.

 

[Humphrey]

Another great episode, I think they did a great job selling how big of a deal Bird was, the magic that the 80s Celtics encapsulated and the sadness that came with watching them break down. I second the post on how hard it was to listen to Bias' mom, almost 40 years later.

He's featured a lot in the documentary as a guest but I kind of wish they did more with Parish in terms of talking about his impact as a player. They did a great job highlighting McHale, but I feel like a little bit more time could be spent on how great Parish was. The 80s Celtics beat Moses, Kareem and then Sampson/Olajuwon for their titles, how do you think they did that? Chief was there doing all the dirty work and doing his best to contain some of the best Centers in NBA history. He rebounded, he protected the basket, he could score with his sneaky turnaround jumper and he did it all with a freakish, machine-like consistency for years and years. It was kind of funny seeing Bird/McHale break down and thinking that Parish still had another 7-8 years of playing in the league.

I would have even settled for a segment on when he was arrested for getting a package of weed mailed to his house in Weston and people showed up outside the courthouse in Waltham with signs reading "Inhale to the Chief."

I also think they gave less attention than they should have to DJ.

 

[jose melendez]

That last one got me. I really hate Pitino. It led be to drop 1,700 words on my relationship with the team.

The Celtics were very good when I was young; they won three championships when I was between the ages of five and 10. But as good as they were, and as much as Bird, McHale, Parrish, Maxwell, and Archibald seemed like super heroes and Julius Erving, Moses Malone, and Andrew Toney seemed like the Legion of Doom, it was clear that the past had been even better. Bill Russell—who I will never stop believing was the best basketball player ever—was a figure of legendary stature, like Babe Ruth. In my child’s mind, I believed that Ruth hit a home run at every at bat. That wasn’t true, I’d later learn. But it was true that Russell won a championship, damn near every time he picked up a basketball in college or the pros. That put Russell above even Ruth, and somewhere in the pantheon of American tall tales with Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, and John Henry, the good one, not the Red Sox owner or Ted Williams’ son.

 

[BigSoxFan]

That last one got me. I really hate Pitino. It led be to drop 1,700 words on my relationship with the team.

Watching the episodes in succession does a great job of illustrating just how awful Pitino was. If you take basically all of the best attributes of Red, Heinsohn, Fitch, KC, etc. and went 180 degrees in the other direction…that was Pitino. Also really makes you appreciate the humility and success of Brad Stevens that much more.

 

[jose melendez]

I give Pitino a modicum of credit for coming on. That said his “my mistake was being President” was wrong. As soon as he got fired that team was above 500 for the rest of the season. That team wasn’t going to compete for a championship, but not being able to even make the playoffs was 100% Pitino.

 

[TripleOT]

I give Pitino a modicum of credit for coming on. That said his “my mistake was being President” was wrong. As soon as he got fired that team was above 500 for the rest of the season. That team wasn’t going to compete for a championship, but not being able to even make the playoffs was 100% Pitino.

The next season, Boston was within two games of the Finals, and if their big man Vitaly wasn’t lost for the playoffs in the last regular season game, they probably get past the Nets. Pitino was a bad NBA coach, with one winning season out of six.

 

[RoDaddy]

As depressing as the Bias episode was, this one was worse. Another horrible death but this time, a guy we knew well and loved in Reggie. The end of the line for McHale and Parish. The Dee Brown racial incident in Wellesley. Tim Duncan. Pitino. The end of the old Boston Garden. The PP stabbing. A tough Monday night watch plus...Rays 16, Red Sox 1!

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I was glad that Pitino spoke on the record about his Celtics days because I don't think that I've seen/heard a lot of it before. It was hilarious that he was wearing a shirt that said, "NO BULL" when he was spinning a lot of bullshit for why his time didn't work out in Boston.

And he seemed like such an asshole, making sure all of the people in the front office lose weight and report to camp at a certain weight was fucking insane. I'm surprised that never leaked out to anyone in the media. I also forgot about Jerome Stanley. I was surprised that there was nothing about Brian Shaw going to Italy with Danny Ferry. I remember that was a pretty huge deal.

 

[Van Everyman]

I give Pitino a modicum of credit for coming on. That said his “my mistake was being President” was wrong. As soon as he got fired that team was above 500 for the rest of the season. That team wasn’t going to compete for a championship, but not being able to even make the playoffs was 100% Pitino.

Yeah, I think Pitino still has it backwards: by saying “I shouldn’t have been president,” he is still refusing to take accountability for how badly things went. Basically, his ego refuses to let him believe that the guys he picked as president could possibly not have produced under him as coach.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Yeah, I think Pitino still has it backwards: by saying “I shouldn’t have been president,” he is still refusing to take accountability for how badly things went. Basically, his ego refuses to let him believe that the guys he picked as president could possibly not have produced under him as coach.

I think it was Resillo that said it, basically if there was any coach in the league who had time on his side, it was Pitino. He was the President and head coach of the Celts and his contract was for 10 years. Gaston wasn't going to fire him if he had a shit two or three seasons while his young guys grew as players. What was so frustrating about the Pitino experience (other than just about everything) was the way he fell in and out of love with guys so quickly. It was borderline manic.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I understand its a narrative choice and considering the source its no surprise - but did anyone aside from Pitino himself say one good thing about him? He seemed pretty widely disliked, even if some of the criticism was faint, by the people interviewed for this episode.

Pitino may be beloved by college hoops fans but if this series is any indication, that adoration doesn't extend to many in the pro ranks.

 

[nattysez]

I was surprised that there was nothing about Brian Shaw going to Italy with Danny Ferry. I remember that was a pretty huge deal.

And IIRC, that negotiation was a significant part of why people hated Jerome Stanley, which they mentioned briefly in the episode (the hatred of Stanley, not the departure to Italy). I appreciate you mentioning this, because I thought of it during the episode and was trying to remember when Shaw left, then forgot to go back and check.

 

[Humphrey]

No one who stood up to Red was portrayed very well back in the day, some examples:

Silas (dumped)
Bird (didn't Larry Johnson or some other cartoonist have some kind of drawing depicting him as a pig?)
Maxwell (dumped, although I think Maxwell bears a bit of the blame for this as well)

By the time Stanley came along, the balance of negotiations had shifted drastically. He didn't come off in the episode as being anything other than someone looking out for his clients.

 

[radsoxfan]

Great but depressing episode.

That Gilbert Mudge press conference brought back some memories....

I was 10 years old at the time but my father was an MD (cardiology fellowship) turned JD medical malpractice lawyer, and he had some opinions for sure. What a disaster.