Celtics 2019-2020 depth chart and roster

benhogan

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Fuck it, I'm just going to go ahead and predict that they trade for Capela sometime around Christmas (if Hayward looks good). Now that Kemba is here his fit makes sense, and his contract is good value for 3.5 more years once the cap goes to $117M+, as it's projected to next year. I'd expect the trade to be something like Kanter+Theis+Yabu+filler+ 1-2 late 1sts.

Waiting that amount of time (which to be clear, they have to anyway in order to move any of the new salaries) lets them see if Capela is over his conditioning issues and if new Hayward is for real.
Ha. I'll play along

a healthy, Utah Gordon & conditioned Capela > MaMo/Horford.

So I'd say you'd be looking at a much better Celtic team than last season.

But wasn't Capela's availability based on the Rockets trying to add Butler or another big free agent?
 
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lovegtm

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Ha. I'll play along

a healthy, Utah Gordon & conditioned Capela > MaMo/Horford.

So I'd say you'd be looking at a much better Celtic team than last season.
Definitely. (again, this is only if Gordon is healthy).

It's important to note that Capela isn't the only variant that works here--other guys will come up, or maybe TimeLord makes a leap. In any case, the Celtics finally have BOTH the assets AND the salary to get it done for any of those guys.

Hell, if Indy for some crazy reason wants to do MEM+filler for Turner, that's doable now. I don't think I'd do MEM for Sabonis, but it's close, and I think a trade for one of those two will become realistic as Indy starts staring down a big payroll with redundant guys. The key is that all these trades now work without Smart or Brown, which lets you either keep Brown, or trade him separately from MEM.

I'm much, much happier with this situation than guaranteeing $97M to 33-36 Al Horford, as much as I think he's a great player.
 

bowiac

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Anything could happen, but if Kawhi ends up other than the Lakers, then the Rockets are basically as good as anyone in the West. Fertitta is a wild card, but that team remains good. Harden is about to be 30, and wasting what's left of his prime by trading the 3rd best player team for two last first rounders would be the most criminal "cheap owner" move I can recall (in the NBA; obviously this is routine in MLB).

Relatedly - while Chris Paul is now clearly on thee downside, he's still a good player. After this latest free agency period, that's probably not a bottom 5 bad contract in the NBA even (Wall, Rozier, Klay, Wiggins, Batum, Kevin Love all worse, plus arguably Blake and Hayward).
 

benhogan

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Definitely. (again, this is only if Gordon is healthy).

It's important to note that Capela isn't the only variant that works here--other guys will come up, or maybe TimeLord makes a leap. In any case, the Celtics finally have BOTH the assets AND the salary to get it done for any of those guys.

Hell, if Indy for some crazy reason wants to do MEM+filler for Turner, that's doable now. I don't think I'd do MEM for Sabonis, but it's close, and I think a trade for one of those two will become realistic as Indy starts staring down a big payroll with redundant guys. The key is that all these trades now work without Smart or Brown, which lets you either keep Brown, or trade him separately from MEM.

I'm much, much happier with this situation than guaranteeing $97M to 33-36 Al Horford, as much as I think he's a great player.
Horford would have limited Danny's flexibility. And with Brad's penchant to stick an aging Horford on an island at the 5 for entire games, I'm fine with them moving on at that $$$ (esp. if they find that defense first 5).

If they could land Turner built around Brown or Smart & Indiana kids. I'd do it. But Indy has added the wings/shooting/scoring they needed in Warren, Lamb and Brogdon. They will go with Sabonis/Turner as their 4/5. Oladipo, Brogdon, Sabonis, Turner is a young core that could be dominant for the next 4 seasons. This team scares me more than any other team in the East since their timeframe lines up with our young core. The Pacers are flying under the radar and have a very clever front office IMO.
 
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Cellar-Door

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Yeah, I don't see Capela as the most likely to be traded.

Adams... sure, everyone the Knicks just signed (except maybe Randle) yep, Dieng maybe? Love for sure,
 

lovegtm

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Anything could happen, but if Kawhi ends up other than the Lakers, then the Rockets are basically as good as anyone in the West. Fertitta is a wild card, but that team remains good. Harden is about to be 30, and wasting what's left of his prime by trading the 3rd best player team for two last first rounders would be the most criminal "cheap owner" move I can recall (in the NBA; obviously this is routine in MLB).

Relatedly - while Chris Paul is now clearly on thee downside, he's still a good player. After this latest free agency period, that's probably not a bottom 5 bad contract in the NBA even (Wall, Rozier, Klay, Wiggins, Batum, Kevin Love all worse, plus arguably Blake and Hayward).
Capela is one example, but if the reports from this summer were true, the Rockets were actively shopping him, and treating his contract as something of a negative, although they'd still want assets, so this isn't super hypothetical or anything.

Not re-signing Ariza during Harden's prime was criminal imo, so Fertita has already crossed that Rubicon--obviously trading Capela would be next level.

As for Paul, he's still good, but the odds that he's cooked at the end of this contract are probably 80%+. The only question is when it happens--probably about 10-20% it's this year, and then it increases a bit each year from there. At whatever point it becomes clear he's done, Capela is likely available.

I probably overstated the odds of Capela being available, but he's representative of the type of scenario that the Celtics should be prepared for now.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah, I don't see Capela as the most likely to be traded.

Adams... sure, everyone the Knicks just signed (except maybe Randle) yep, Dieng maybe? Love for sure,
Hadn’t thought of Adams—he’d be a good mid-season target if Capela isn’t available, and OKC probably gives him up for very little just to get out of the contract (if they decide to cut costs).
 

mcpickl

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Yabusele is ballast. That is his job. Ballast and practice squad. He seems to do both well. They don't need another guy who won't play.
Can't other guys be ballast too though? Does it have to be Guerschon Yaballastsele? I mean, if the Celtics put him in the Charlotte trade, and make their transactions in the correct order, they can sign a veteran for the exact salary Guerschon makes. Maybe when the veterans are fighting over table scraps being able to pay them a bit more than that minimum would attract a guy over paying the minimum.

And you'd have the exact same amount of ballast. Team Ballast!

The more I think about it, I'll be very surprised if Guerschon isn't in the Charlotte deal.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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Brad's penchant to stick an aging Horford on an island at the 5 for entire games
So Max Carlin on CelticsBlog.com actually provided a potential explanation for this that I have not seen discussed here. This was in a Q&A format with Carlin answering questions from someone on SB's Sixers site.
LB: Horford has spent a lot of time at center, but when he’s on the court with Joel, he’ll have to play the four. Horford-Aron Baynes lineups appear to have been successful but in a limited sample. What do you think about the fit and how sustainable is playing Horford at the four?

MC: They rarely went to the Horford-Baynes pair in 2018-19, but it was far more prominently featured in 2017-18, when they started together. In 1,706 possessions together, the Horford-Baynes frontcourt posted a +12.1 net rating, per Cleaning The Glass. They were dominant defensively, Baynes covering traditional fives and Al roaming as a versatile free safety. Offensively, Horford’s inside-outside duality allowed for a workable fit.

This year, I think they moved away from the pairing due to some limitations on Horford. Early in the year, dealing with knee injuries, Al became pretty one-dimensional on offense. He simply didn’t have the vertical pop to be a threatening vertical spacer, so the Celtics’s pick-and-roll attack became stale and predictable—Al was exclusively a popping big. Four-and-a-half-out units with Baynes and Horford became untenable on offense, as there was absolutely zero pressure on the rim. On top of that, Al’s reduced mobility made the defensive fit suboptimal.

Going forward, I have concerns about it. Horford should do fine playing the four with starting units, but the appeal of the Baynes-Horford duo was always that Al could save himself during those minutes and be fresh to play the five in crunch time. How Horford will fare in late-game situations at the four is up in the air. I’m slightly skeptical of him really holding up on switches vs. guards consistently, especially as he continues to age or if the knee issues resurface. I also worry about a repeat of the Horford-Baynes issue of not enough pressure on the rim next to Embiid, who’s not exactly a dominant roll man either. Horford-Embiid is not a perfect fit by any means.
I mention this because it hasn't come up here, before.

And there is one thing that Carlin did not mention that I think adds some support to his argument. At the end of the year, when Stevens started playing some Horford and Baynes together more, the Celtics started running a lot of offensive sets with Baynes at the top of the key and setting picks for Kyrie while Horford was spotting up from the baseline (which he did horribly). There was no obvious reason for doing that, given how effective Horford's offensive game is when he is setting picks and rolling or popping out beyond the 3 point line, where his spot up 3 is particularly lethal.

Anyway, I just bring it up because I haven't seen this before.
 

benhogan

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So Max Carlin on CelticsBlog.com actually provided a potential explanation for this that I have not seen discussed here. This was in a Q&A format with Carlin answering questions from someone on SB's Sixers site.

I mention this because it hasn't come up here, before.

And there is one thing that Carlin did not mention that I think adds some support to his argument. At the end of the year, when Stevens started playing some Horford and Baynes together more, the Celtics started running a lot of offensive sets with Baynes at the top of the key and setting picks for Kyrie while Horford was spotting up from the baseline (which he did horribly). There was no obvious reason for doing that, given how effective Horford's offensive game is when he is setting picks and rolling or popping out beyond the 3 point line, where his spot up 3 is particularly lethal.

Anyway, I just bring it up because I haven't seen this before.
Ha. Thanks for posting and shedding more light on it. I like the "free safety" analogy to Al's defense while playing with Baynes.

I think Al's knee issue was brought about with the heavy use of Horford at the 5. Playing the 5 is more taxing IMO. Others felt Al running around the perimeter was more taxing. YMMV

As we all know I waxed poetic about a Horford/Baynes pairing all season long and was kept at bay by Brad or Aron's injuries. The reality is Baynes was/is a fungible 5, his absurdly good advanced metrics were driven playing next to Horford. As were Theis. I think Al's knee will be fine playing the 4 this season for the 76ers and he will thrive playing next to Embiid. Obviously, an Embiid/Horford pairing is a much more potent weapon than Horford/Baynes or Horford/Theis.

The other side of that argument is Horford has always been a center and can't cover modern 4s on the perimeter.

Philly may be a good test case for the "Horford 5 or Al 4, which is better?" argument. Hopefully, HRB is correct and Al is incapable of covering Gordon Hayward defensively.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's fine to think Hayward can't play PF (I disagree in the modern game) but the point was that PHI's primary 4s for most of last year were Chandler and Harris who are both 6'8"-6'9" and weight 225 and 235. Toronto gave the most minutes at the 4 to Saikam who is 6'9" 230. Even out west, GS's PF is 6'7" 230, Portland 6'9" 220, Houston 6'6" 240. Not a lot of teams are going "big" or "heavy" at the 4, this year's Philly will be a bit of an outlier. If Hayward doesn't work at the 4, it will be more about the player than the size he has.


He was also one of the best bigs in Euroleague, and plenty of guys come over from there (and ACB honestly) and become impact contributors in the NBA: Bogdanovic, Ingles, Rubio, Nurkic, Saric, Zubac, Satoransky, Hernangomez, Ibaka, Mirotic, and many more
Most of those you name were highly sought after talents and/or 1st round draft picks.....even a couple lottery picks in there. This doesn't describe what Poirier's upside was even seen to be. I agree he can be useful in the way Theis and Hernangomez are as deep bench depth but comping him with Rubio, Nurkic, Saric, and other much more highly projected talent simply because he came from the same league is a complete mischaracterization of his ability.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The other side of that argument is Horford has always been a center and can't cover modern 4s on the perimeter.

Philly may be a good test case for the "Horford 5 or Al 4, which is better?" argument. Hopefully, HRB is correct and Al is incapable of covering Gordon Hayward defensively.
I think Horford has shown that he can handle the occasional switch onto just about anyone, and can handle tough assignments including the likes of Joel Embiid but also the likes of Giannis. Not shut them down, necessarily, but at least compete and make them earn every bucket. I think the real questions are how much his offense benefits from playing as a "stretch 5" against less mobile centers (vs PFs) and whether he can defend a steady diet of smaller more athletic types than he is used to. Worked fine a couple of years ago, though.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I would expect and hope for a lot of mixing and matching at C, plus a lot of fouls to give.

There are good and bad matchups for a Kanter or a Theis. Maybe Poirier can be kind of a poor man's Aron Baynes, which would be useful in some situations. WIlliams is more of a wild card who would be quite an asset if he progresses.
 

benhogan

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Can't other guys be ballast too though? Does it have to be Guerschon Yaballastsele? I mean, if the Celtics put him in the Charlotte trade, and make their transactions in the correct order, they can sign a veteran for the exact salary Guerschon makes. Maybe when the veterans are fighting over table scraps being able to pay them a bit more than that minimum would attract a guy over paying the minimum.

And you'd have the exact same amount of ballast. Team Ballast!

The more I think about it, I'll be very surprised if Guerschon isn't in the Charlotte deal.
Getting a better player than Yabu at the same money is a no brainer. We now have plenty of filler/short contracts. On Dec.15th Danny can decide which filler he keeps or deals.

Simply put: you always want the better player at the same $$$.

JaMychel Green, Darius Miller > Yabu and if you can have them you send Yabu along with Terry to Charlotte (@ $22MM/yr) Yikes, Hornet fans are in for something special this season.
 

benhogan

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I think Horford has shown that he can handle the occasional switch onto just about anyone, and can handle tough assignments including the likes of Joel Embiid but also the likes of Giannis. Not shut them down, necessarily, but at least compete and make them earn every bucket. I think the real questions are how much his offense benefits from playing as a "stretch 5" against less mobile centers (vs PFs) and whether he can defend a steady diet of smaller more athletic types than he is used to. Worked fine a couple of years ago, though.
I think Al's offense against a 5 (as a stretch 5) or a 4 is a push. Against 5's he basically is a PnP guy. At least against 4s he can PnP OR post up 4's down low.

The Baynes/Horford offense vs Horford/Mamo offense showed no difference over the last 2 years, the defensive efficiency was in a different stratosphere (according to advanced off/def ratings).
 

Cellar-Door

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Getting a better player than Yabu at the same money is a no brainer. We now have plenty of filler/short contracts. On Dec.15th Danny can decide which filler he keeps or deals.

Simply put: you always want the better player at the same $$$.

JaMychel Green, Darius Miller > Yabu and if you can have them you send Yabu along with Terry to Charlotte (@ $22MM/yr) Yikes, Hornet fans are in for something special this season.
It's been covered roughly 100000 times, but it sin't the same money it's at least a 1.2M difference in trades.
Also Darius Miller just got 7M a year. Green is likely going back to LAC for more than the minimum as well.
If people want to make the argument that someone out there will actually make a difference to this team, fine, but picking guys who aren't available to us, and ignoring the value of trade matching is silly.
 

benhogan

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It's been covered roughly 100000 times, but it sin't the same money it's at least a 1.2M difference in trades.
Also Darius Miller just got 7M a year. Green is likely going back to LAC for more than the minimum as well.
If people want to make the argument that someone out there will actually make a difference to this team, fine, but picking guys who aren't available to us, and ignoring the value of trade matching is silly.
I thought McPickl said same money, he's pretty much the resident capologist around here?
I mean, if the Celtics put him in the Charlotte trade, and make their transactions in the correct order, they can sign a veteran for the exact salary Guerschon makes -mcpickl


Warriors just rescinded Quinn Cook's qualifying offer?

I gladly would have taken Noah Vonleh, Wilson Chandler or Mudiay (all signed to vet min deals) over Yabu
 
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Big John

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No point in trading one guy who won't play (Yabu) for another guy who won't play. I think Mcpickl has it right and Yabu is on his way to Charlotte along with Rozier. One possibility is Kemba in, Rozier, Yabu and Baynes (to Phoenix along with #24) out, Milwaukee 2020 pick, modest trade exception and Yabu's roster spot to the Celtics.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Getting a better player than Yabu at the same money is a no brainer. We now have plenty of filler/short contracts. On Dec.15th Danny can decide which filler he keeps or deals.

Simply put: you always want the better player at the same $$$.

JaMychel Green, Darius Miller > Yabu and if you can have them you send Yabu along with Terry to Charlotte (@ $22MM/yr) Yikes, Hornet fans are in for something special this season.
Are we sure that the trade would still be able to be completed after adding Yabu's salary? If I'm doing the math right, from Charlotte's perspective the incoming salary would be $18.412m for Rozier + $3.117m for Yabu = $21.529m incoming for Charlotte total. Kemba's outgoing salary from Charlotte's perspective, after factoring in BYC, would be $16.371m, and because Charlotte is not a taxpaying team, they can only receive the outgoing salary plus $5m, which would be $21.371m, which is slightly less than Rozier + Yabu.

The numbers are so close that maybe they can make it work - I got my numbers from SpotTrac and they may be using estimates for certain of those numbers. But at best it seems like it's a very close call.
 

DrewDawg

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Cellar-Door

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No point in trading one guy who won't play (Yabu) for another guy who won't play. I think Mcpickl has it right and Yabu is on his way to Charlotte along with Rozier. One possibility is Kemba in, Rozier, Yabu and Baynes (to Phoenix along with #24) out, Milwaukee 2020 pick from Phoenix to Charlotte for taking Yabu, modest trade exception and Yabu's roster spot to the Celtics.
This is really backwards, Charlotte is going to send something to Boston not the other way around, and we certainly aren't trading a first to dump Yabu when we could have just declined his option (also as pointed out 1M times, there is no real benefit to moving Yabu it clears almost no cap space). Additionally, there would be no TPE, because the Celtics would need to get under the cap to get Kemba in (He counts as 32M incoming Rozier(BYC) Baynes and Yabu don't match) also to give Edwards a deal.

Also as pointed out, something else would have to move to make the deal work under the CBA for Charlotte.
 

mcpickl

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I thought McPickl said same money, he's pretty much the resident capologist around here?
I mean, if the Celtics put him in the Charlotte trade, and make their transactions in the correct order, they can sign a veteran for the exact salary Guerschon makes -mcpickl


Warriors just rescinded Quinn Cook's qualifying offer?

I gladly would have taken Noah Vonleh, Wilson Chandler or Mudiay (all signed to vet min deals) over Yabu
They can sign a veteran for the exact same money Yabusele is making.

I didn't think of it last night, because I didn't expect so many people's hearts to go on for Guerschon, but yes if you put Guerschons 3.1M into the Charlotte trade, you would have 3.1M of extra cap space to spend.

Kinda obvious and disappointed I didn't think of it last night. If you're taking Kemba into cap space in the trade as is, with Guerschon on the roster, obviously if he's off the roster in that trade you'd be that much further under the cap.

They'd technically need to sign carsen edwards next before having that full 3. 1M, but that's what they'd do.

I would predict at this point that Guerschon will be in the Charlotte trade.
 

mcpickl

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Are we sure that the trade would still be able to be completed after adding Yabu's salary? If I'm doing the math right, from Charlotte's perspective the incoming salary would be $18.412m for Rozier + $3.117m for Yabu = $21.529m incoming for Charlotte total. Kemba's outgoing salary from Charlotte's perspective, after factoring in BYC, would be $16.371m, and because Charlotte is not a taxpaying team, they can only receive the outgoing salary plus $5m, which would be $21.371m, which is slightly less than Rozier + Yabu.
The numbers are so close that maybe they can make it work - I got my numbers from SpotTrac and they may be using estimates for certain of those numbers. But at best it seems like it's a very close call.
My guess is spotrac is using an estimate on rozier contract of 3/58 as reported by his agent, would start at their number of 18.412. My guess is rozier will actually start at 18.25, getting his contract to 57.5ish instead of 58. That would hit the exact maximum number rozier could be to do a rozier+yabusele for Kemba swap, if Boston takes Kemba into space.


Again, I'm just guessing at this stuff. Makes sense to me tho.
 

Big John

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But it's a salary matching trade, not a free agent signing into cap space.

Why doesn't that work for Charlotte? I don't pretend to understand the BYC rules, but wouldn't they affect both Kemba and Rozier, each of whom is getting big raise?
 

benhogan

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This is really backwards, Charlotte is going to send something to Boston not the other way around, and we certainly aren't trading a first to dump Yabu when we could have just declined his option (also as pointed out 1M times, there is no real benefit to moving Yabu it clears almost no cap space). Additionally, there would be no TPE, because the Celtics would need to get under the cap to get Kemba in (He counts as 32M incoming Rozier(BYC) Baynes and Yabu don't match) also to give Edwards a deal.

Also as pointed out, something else would have to move to make the deal work under the CBA for Charlotte.
I don't get Big John's suggestion at all.

If we could get a future 2nd rounder from Charlotte for the S&T, then keeping Yabusele is fine.

Otherwise, I'd still want to pack him off and watch this game of NBA musical chairs and see what vet shakes out and needs a roster spot for $3.1M

Do you agree or disagree with mcpickl cap work here? Would Danny be able to use the full $3.1MM to sign a vet
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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They can sign a veteran for the exact same money Yabusele is making.

I didn't think of it last night, because I didn't expect so many people's hearts to go on for Guerschon, but yes if you put Guerschons 3.1M into the Charlotte trade, you would have 3.1M of extra cap space to spend.

Kinda obvious and disappointed I didn't think of it last night. If you're taking Kemba into cap space in the trade as is, with Guerschon on the roster, obviously if he's off the roster in that trade you'd be that much further under the cap.

They'd technically need to sign carsen edwards next before having that full 3. 1M, but that's what they'd do.

I would predict at this point that Guerschon will be in the Charlotte trade.
Did you really just deliberately paraphrase a Celine Dion lyric in this forum?

Also, on a semi-serious note, are you aware that Yabusele is part of the holy trinity of Weird Celtics Twitter along with Smarf and Jaylen Brown? This may be informing some of the pushback you are getting here. Yabu and his thicc-ness (chonk?) are fun and all. However the guy isn't likely to play any meaningful minutes in his NBA career - it should be fine to move on from him by now.
 

lovegtm

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They can sign a veteran for the exact same money Yabusele is making.

I didn't think of it last night, because I didn't expect so many people's hearts to go on for Guerschon, but yes if you put Guerschons 3.1M into the Charlotte trade, you would have 3.1M of extra cap space to spend.

Kinda obvious and disappointed I didn't think of it last night. If you're taking Kemba into cap space in the trade as is, with Guerschon on the roster, obviously if he's off the roster in that trade you'd be that much further under the cap.

They'd technically need to sign carsen edwards next before having that full 3. 1M, but that's what they'd do.

I would predict at this point that Guerschon will be in the Charlotte trade.
If that all works, I'm fine moving on, and I'd expect him to be gone. The only question is whether that affects getting an asset back from Charlotte: I'd rather have Charlotte's 2nd rounder (which will be quite a good one) than a back-of-the-bench veteran in place of Yabu.

If they bring in a cheap vet, it can really only be at PG or big, since 4 of their best 5 players play the 2-4 position, and then they need minutes for Langford and GWill as well. If there are ideas there, I'm open to them--not sure anyone interesting is really left there though, and they already have a lot of meh bigs who need time.
 

Big John

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So what folks are saying is that there is no way for the Celtics to acquire Kemba and and wind up over the cap at the end of the day so as to have the full MLE? If that isn't possible, then what happens with Yabu is immaterial.
 

OurF'ingCity

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My guess is spotrac is using an estimate on rozier contract of 3/58 as reported by his agent, would start at their number of 18.412. My guess is rozier will actually start at 18.25, getting his contract to 57.5ish instead of 58. That would hit the exact maximum number rozier could be to do a rozier+yabusele for Kemba swap, if Boston takes Kemba into space.


Again, I'm just guessing at this stuff. Makes sense to me tho.
You might be right. In fact, the numbers work out so precisely that I am starting to come around to your side of things and wonder if Rozier's new salary wasn't precisely determined based on how high they could get it while still having it work under the rules for the larger Rozier/Yabu for Kemba trade.
 

OurF'ingCity

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But it's a salary matching trade, not a free agent signing into cap space.

Why doesn't that work for Charlotte? I don't pretend to understand the BYC rules, but wouldn't they affect both Kemba and Rozier, each of whom is getting big raise?
For a team over the cap (like Charlotte) the BYC rules only change the outgoing salary, not the incoming salary. So Kemba's outgoing salary, from Charlotte's perspective, is treated as only half of what it actually is, while Rozier's incoming salary is treated as his full salary. For a team under the cap like Boston, the BYC rules are more or less irrelevant because they are taking Kemba's contract into cap space and thus don't need to match salaries.
 

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Did you really just deliberately paraphrase a Celine Dion lyric in this forum?

Also, on a semi-serious note, are you aware that Yabusele is part of the holy trinity of Weird Celtics Twitter along with Smarf and Jaylen Brown? This may be informing some of the pushback you are getting here. Yabu and his thicc-ness (chonk?) are fun and all. However the guy isn't likely to play any meaningful minutes in his NBA career - it should be fine to move on from him by now.
I could give a shit about whether Yabu stays or goes. Let's hope that a man exists for Yabu's salary who won't mind not playing much so we can play kids in front of him more often than not. I'm all for it.
 

nighthob

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Isn't that the point? Who cares if the garbage time minutes are going to Yabu Dabu Du or some glorified player coach? Why go through all the circumlocutions to get rid of the guy whose literal purpose is to fill out the balance sheet come trade time if an actual upgrade is available to Boston?
 

Jimbodandy

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Isn't that the point? Who cares if the garbage time minutes are going to Yabu Dabu Du or some glorified player coach? Why go through all the circumlocutions to get rid of the guy whose literal purpose is to fill out the balance sheet come trade time if an actual upgrade is available to Boston?
I agree completely. But I won't lose any sleep if Ainge upgrades the 12th spot on the roster either.

I think that some are inferring some kind of Yabu love from this take, and I was kind of addressing that. Nobody remains for that money that I want stealing minutes from someone who needs a look, and who cares if we upgrade on a guy who's not playing.
 

lovegtm

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Honestly at this point the whole salary ballast thing is starting to get aesthetic: it just feels gross to have a guy making millions of dollars when his only purpose is to match in trades and then expire the next year, even when it's not your money and the guy is at the back of the bench.
 

luckiestman

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guys, let’s salvage this. Put a hidden camera in your house and try to explain to your wife/girlfriend what you spent all day arguing about on the internet today. Yabu vs vet min player x. I really want to see the look on her face.
 

lovegtm

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guys, let’s salvage this. Put a hidden camera in your house and try to explain to your wife/girlfriend what you spent all day arguing about on the internet today. Yabu vs vet min player x. I really want to see the look on her face.
Joke's on you: girlfriend left today on a trip--now I'm finally free to sit in my underwear and argue about salary ballast to my heart's content!
 

DourDoerr

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guys, let’s salvage this. Put a hidden camera in your house and try to explain to your wife/girlfriend what you spent all day arguing about on the internet today. Yabu vs vet min player x. I really want to see the look on her face.
I imagine it'd be close to the gaze Nancy Reagan gave to Ronald during his speeches.
 

Cellar-Door

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It appears maybe possible to include Yabu then order things to get a 3.1M vet,. Depends on how Rozier's deal is structured and a few other things. I don't think it's worth it unless there is a clear target with high upside, nobody mentioned to me is worth bothering. On the other hand... if Boogie is willing to take 3.1M, I do that, since the upside is a legit starter.
 

Jimbodandy

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It appears maybe possible to include Yabu then order things to get a 3.1M vet,. Depends on how Rozier's deal is structured and a few other things. I don't think it's worth it unless there is a clear target with high upside, nobody mentioned to me is worth bothering. On the other hand... if Boogie is willing to take 3.1M, I do that, since the upside is a legit starter.
That would be great. The Boogie thread would be like reliving the Kanter thread all over again.
 

mcpickl

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If that all works, I'm fine moving on, and I'd expect him to be gone. The only question is whether that affects getting an asset back from Charlotte: I'd rather have Charlotte's 2nd rounder (which will be quite a good one) than a back-of-the-bench veteran in place of Yabu.

If they bring in a cheap vet, it can really only be at PG or big, since 4 of their best 5 players play the 2-4 position, and then they need minutes for Langford and GWill as well. If there are ideas there, I'm open to them--not sure anyone interesting is really left there though, and they already have a lot of meh bigs who need time.
Interesting, I was thinking the exact opposite.

I look at it as having a 9 man rotation as one guy each at 1-5, and four guys that are tweeners between the spots, like Marcus Smart is between a PG and SG, so I'd call him a 1.5.

I think their rotation that is locked in now is

1 Kemba
1.5 Smart
2 Jaylen
2.5 Hayward
3 Tatum
3.5 vacant
4 vacant
4.5 Theis
5 Kanter

I think the PG or big, if you mean center, are the spots that are most covered. I think the 4 would definitely be the spot of most need. They could also sign someone that's anywhere from a 2 thru a 3 and move the other guys up a spot in size.

As I had said earlier, I'd just want to sign one guy that's preferably a 4, and let Semi and Grant Williams fight it out for the other spot.
 

lovegtm

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Interesting, I was thinking the exact opposite.

I look at it as having a 9 man rotation as one guy each at 1-5, and four guys that are tweeners between the spots, like Marcus Smart is between a PG and SG, so I'd call him a 1.5.

I think their rotation that is locked in now is

1 Kemba
1.5 Smart
2 Jaylen
2.5 Hayward
3 Tatum
3.5 vacant
4 vacant
4.5 Theis
5 Kanter

I think the PG or big, if you mean center, are the spots that are most covered. I think the 4 would definitely be the spot of most need. They could also sign someone that's anywhere from a 2 thru a 3 and move the other guys up a spot in size.

As I had said earlier, I'd just want to sign one guy that's preferably a 4, and let Semi and Grant Williams fight it out for the other spot.
Hmmm, so I'm trying to think of this more from the team's perspective, as opposed to what I personally would or wouldn't do. We have a lot of evidence that Brad thinks of 2-4 as basically interchangeable positions, and a lot of Danny's drafting is one with that in mind. Hayward and Tatum are as big as most modern 4s--whether this forum likes it or not, they are going to play a lot of minutes there, because the team will want to maximize minutes for its best players.

The team clearly thinks of Jaylen as a 2-3, probably with the long-term hope that he gains enough core strength to play 4 at times (he's strong enough, but defends the post really poorly).

Thinking of positions is backwards from how the team will likely approach it: they have 5 core players, and they want them on the floor as much as possible for development and winning. Those 5 players are Kemba, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Brown. Any rotation will be made with the goal of maximizing those guys' minutes and opportunities.

The secondary goal will be to develop the higher potential young guys. As much as they can handle it, that will be Langford at the 2-3, GWill at the 3-4-sometimes5, and TimeLord at the 5.

They're certainly not going to hold the 4 spot open for some random $3M vet to play 25 mins/night there.

TO BE 100% CLEAR: I'm not saying that this is how I'd approach it (although it probably is). I'm saying that this is how I predict the Celtics will play it.
 

Sprowl

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Interesting, I was thinking the exact opposite.

I look at it as having a 9 man rotation as one guy each at 1-5, and four guys that are tweeners between the spots, like Marcus Smart is between a PG and SG, so I'd call him a 1.5.

I think their rotation that is locked in now is

1 Kemba
1.5 Smart
2 Jaylen
2.5 Hayward
3 Tatum
3.5 vacant
4 vacant
4.5 Theis
5 Kanter

I think the PG or big, if you mean center, are the spots that are most covered. I think the 4 would definitely be the spot of most need. They could also sign someone that's anywhere from a 2 thru a 3 and move the other guys up a spot in size.

As I had said earlier, I'd just want to sign one guy that's preferably a 4, and let Semi and Grant Williams fight it out for the other spot.
I expect to see a lot of end-of-game lineups featuring

1 Walker
2 Smart
3 Brown
3 Tatum
3 Hayward

Brad Stevens loves smallball. In 2016-2017 before Al Horford joined the team, he often deployed IT-Bradley-Crowder-Smart with Olynyk or Jerebko to spread the floor. I expect to see him play his most skilled players when it counts, with Marcus Smart guarding the biggest opponent on the floor. The Celtics were often poor rebounding teams under Stevens, and will be again.
 

mcpickl

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I expect to see a lot of end-of-game lineups featuring

1 Walker
2 Smart
3 Brown
3 Tatum
3 Hayward

Brad Stevens loves smallball. In 2016-2017 before Al Horford joined the team, he often deployed IT-Bradley-Crowder-Smart with Olynyk or Jerebko to spread the floor. I expect to see him play his most skilled players when it counts, with Marcus Smart guarding the biggest opponent on the floor. The Celtics were often poor rebounding teams under Stevens, and will be again.
Man, I hope the opponent doesn't have anyone that can score in the post and/or offensive rebound. Because that lineup is going to get punished.

I think 4 of those 5 guys will close with a big guy. Kemba will be in, if Hayward is anywhere close to Utah Hayward he's in. The one of the other three who isn't in is the guy who's having the worst game that night.
 

benhogan

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Brad Stevens loves smallball. In 2016-2017 before Al Horford joined the team, he often deployed IT-Bradley-Crowder-Smart with Olynyk or Jerebko to spread the floor. I expect to see him play his most skilled players when it counts, with Marcus Smart guarding the biggest opponent on the floor. The Celtics were often poor rebounding teams under Stevens, and will be again.
I loved that small ball team. Nothing better than a group of scrappy, overachievers playing with chips on their shoulders that could SHOOT. Those were the days before the majority of NBA BIGs started attempting and hitting 3s in droves. NBA Centers have adjusted over the last 2 seasons. I wish Brad would too.
 

Jimbodandy

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Man, I hope the opponent doesn't have anyone that can score in the post and/or offensive rebound. Because that lineup is going to get punished.

I think 4 of those 5 guys will close with a big guy. Kemba will be in, if Hayward is anywhere close to Utah Hayward he's in. The one of the other three who isn't in is the guy who's having the worst game that night.
Hmmm, so I'm trying to think of this more from the team's perspective, as opposed to what I personally would or wouldn't do. We have a lot of evidence that Brad thinks of 2-4 as basically interchangeable positions, and a lot of Danny's drafting is one with that in mind. Hayward and Tatum are as big as most modern 4s--whether this forum likes it or not, they are going to play a lot of minutes there, because the team will want to maximize minutes for its best players.

The team clearly thinks of Jaylen as a 2-3, probably with the long-term hope that he gains enough core strength to play 4 at times (he's strong enough, but defends the post really poorly).

Thinking of positions is backwards from how the team will likely approach it: they have 5 core players, and they want them on the floor as much as possible for development and winning. Those 5 players are Kemba, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Brown. Any rotation will be made with the goal of maximizing those guys' minutes and opportunities.

The secondary goal will be to develop the higher potential young guys. As much as they can handle it, that will be Langford at the 2-3, GWill at the 3-4-sometimes5, and TimeLord at the 5.

They're certainly not going to hold the 4 spot open for some random $3M vet to play 25 mins/night there.

TO BE 100% CLEAR: I'm not saying that this is how I'd approach it (although it probably is). I'm saying that this is how I predict the Celtics will play it.
Good posts. Stevens will maximize minutes for his top 5 players, while trying much more than the last two years to get a look at kids. GWill, RWill, and Romeo will get run. I think that Edwards will too, but not sure.

But Kanter will get minutes and will sometimes be in at the end of games because they need beef. I know that he sucks on defense, but he's beef. Unless and until RW or GW proves that they can stand up to a true big and not step on his own dick, Kanter will be out there. Stevens loves smallball, yes, but even he doesn't want to see teams jam the ball down our throats.

Also agreed that the 2-3-4 distinction needs to be dropped from the lexicon for good. Wings are wings are wings. And size doesn't determine it completely either. Jaylen might be the same size as GWill roughly, but the former is a wing and the latter, a big. That's how they play.
 

benhogan

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Also agreed that the 2-3-4 distinction needs to be dropped from the lexicon for good. Wings are wings are wings. And size doesn't determine it completely either. Jaylen might be the same size as GWill roughly, but the former is a wing and the latter, a big. That's how they play.
I don't agree. I think mcpickl nailed it in Post #292. If anything its much more defined.

for example, Al Horford is a 4/5. He can play Center and he can play as a big wing. If you use ballhandler, wing or BIG to describe players you miss the nuanced way Al Horford plays.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't agree. I think mcpickl nailed it in Post #292. If anything its much more defined.

for example, Al Horford is a 4/5. He can play Center and he can play as a big wing. If you use ballhandler, wing or BIG to describe players you miss the nuanced way Al Horford plays.
Horford is clearly an exception and a guy who can play both roles. It's why he was great. Most guys are a big, wing, or ballhandler. And even Horford played either wing or big by situation.

Worrying about who's going to play 4 is missing the point.