Celtics 2019-2020 depth chart and roster

[Big John]

Well I was thinking of the Pacers also. If Ainge offered TimeLord, Langford and Boston's unprotected 2020 first rounder for Sabonis, would Pritchard hang up? Langford would certainly sell tickets in Indianapolis, and the Pacers also have Bitazde to back up Turner.

Of course, extending Brown and Sabonis this year plus Tatum next year would be expensive, but it's Wyc's money and they'd have a hell of a team.

 

[benhogan]

Well I was thinking of the Pacers also. If Ainge offered TimeLord, Langford and Boston's unprotected 2020 first rounder for Sabonis, would Pritchard hang up? Langford would certainly sell tickets in Indianapolis, and the Pacers also have Bitazde to back up Turner.

Of course, extending Brown and Sabonis this year plus Tatum next year would be expensive, but it's Wyc's money and they'd have a hell of a team.

that's Hogan catnip

Not impossible BUT in order for the Celtics to land future All-Star, Domantas Sabonis, we would need:
(1) the Indy double BIG experiment to flop &
(2) Oladipo to not get healthy this season &
(3) Indy is below .500 by Jan 1 &
(4) Pritchard doesn't want to shell out $$$ for a 2nd BIG &
(5) Pritchard can't find a better/similar deal out West &
(6) Langford to get healthy and play very well at Maine and decent in Boston


It's an extreme longshot but upgrading Theis/Kanter/Poirier/TL looks like job #1 for Danny on Dec 15th

 

[mcpickl]

Well I was thinking of the Pacers also. If Ainge offered TimeLord, Langford and Boston's unprotected 2020 first rounder for Sabonis, would Pritchard hang up? Langford would certainly sell tickets in Indianapolis, and the Pacers also have Bitazde to back up Turner.

Of course, extending Brown and Sabonis this year plus Tatum next year would be expensive, but it's Wyc's money and they'd have a hell of a team.

Yes, he would.

If you call on Sabonis offering anything less than Jaylen Brown, I'd expect the conversation to be real short.

Like, if Indiana called offering Aaron Holiday, Goga Bitadze and Indiana unprotected 2020 first rounder for Jaylen, I'd hope Danny would hang up. That's a pretty similar offer I think.

 

[nighthob]

that's Hogan catnip

Not impossible BUT in order for the Celtics to land future All-Star, Domantas Sabonis, we would need:
(1) the Indy double BIG experiment to flop &
(2) Oladipo to not get healthy this season &
(3) Indy is below .500 by Jan 1 &
(4) Pritchard doesn't want to shell out $$$ for a 2nd BIG &
(5) Pritchard can't find a better/similar deal out West &
(6) Langford to get healthy and play very well at Maine and decent in Boston


It's an extreme longshot but upgrading Theis/Kanter/Poirier/TL looks like job #1 for Danny on Dec 15th

People need to give up the dream of Boston trading for Sabonis. He doesn’t check any of their boxes and will, financially, require them to give up one of their max salary wings to avoid running an OKC Thunder like payroll. If he were Embiid or KATman, they’d gladly pay. But they’re not paying like that for Sabonis.

 

[Big John]

What boxes doesn't Sabonis check? The Pacers are in the same boat with Sabonis as the Celtics are with Brown. The difference is, the Celtics can afford to pay, and the Pacers may not be.

 

[benhogan]

People need to give up the dream of Boston trading for Sabonis. He doesn’t check any of their boxes and will, financially, require them to give up one of their max salary wings to avoid running an OKC Thunder like payroll. If he were Embiid or KATman, they’d gladly pay. But they’re not paying like that for Sabonis.

???

I think my list pretty much puts those dreams to bed, right?

 

[nighthob]

I think my list pretty much puts those dreams to bed, right?

I should have made clear that I was amplifying your point. The nature of next summer’s free agent market means that everyone’s getting paid. It’s one reason I wouldn’t be averse to Boston dealing Brown to Atlanta at the deadline if the Hawks are willing to pony up for him.

 

[Big John]

Well, Sabonis hasn't signed an extension, has he? I've read that $18M per was discussed-- what Turner got--but that was at least a week ago. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Most likely, both Sabonis and Brown are looking for offer sheets next July.

 

[benhogan]

I should have made clear that I was amplifying your point. The nature of next summer’s free agent market means that everyone’s getting paid. It’s one reason I wouldn’t be averse to Boston dealing Brown to Atlanta at the deadline if the Hawks are willing to pony up for him.

You're right, RFA/UFA will get paid next Summer, unless China pulls the NBA plug. At this point, I'd think most NBA Execs/players are hoping the salary cap doesn't go lower next year.

As far as Atlanta, they will have by far the most cap space. I don't think they give up good trade value for Jaylen, even if they like him. I'd expect they'd just offer big $$$ in RFA and see if Danny blinks

 

[Cellar-Door]

Sabonis only makes sense if Brown is going outward, they aren't paying both, and they aren't letting one walk for nothing.

 

[benhogan]

I don't want to get all 4D chess here, and I agree that's it's quite likely that the Celtics simply intend to cut Strus or Green.

BUUUUTTTT...Waters as the 2-way still makes lots of sense even if you think he's NBA-ready. He's very blocked on the depth chart, and you effectively can another year of team control by sticking him as the 2-way for a year.

That's interesting. So if they keep Waters on a two-way all season could they sign him to a 4yr/$6.5MM Carson Edwards type contract next season?

 

[lovegtm]

That's interesting. So if they keep Waters on a two-way all season could they sign him to a 4yr/$6.5MM Carson Edwards type contract next season?

Pretty sure he’s an RFA at that point, but I’ll let the more knowledgeable CBA people comment on what type of contract that implies.

 

[nighthob]

You're right, RFA/UFA will get paid next Summer, unless China pulls the NBA plug. At this point, I'd think most NBA Execs/players are hoping the salary cap doesn't go lower next year.

As far as Atlanta, they will have by far the most cap space. I don't think they give up good trade value for Jaylen, even if they like him. I'd expect they'd just offer big $$$ in RFA and see if Danny blinks

They already know that Boston won’t blink because Jaylen on the four year lower max is an easy trade for Boston. If they want him they’re going to have to pay in talent.

 

[benhogan]

They already know that Boston won’t blink because Jaylen on the four year lower max is an easy trade for Boston. If they want him they’re going to have to pay in talent.

My crystal ball regarding China is pretty foggy, but it sounds like its already affecting NBA revenues with Silver's comment yesterday.

IMO it has gone from a small probability to a much higher probability the salary cap flatlines ($109MM) or even goes significantly lower ($100MM?) next Summer. NBA Execs were expecting/budgeting $116MM just 10 days ago. At $116MM - there were only 5-6 teams able to bid for FA. Contracts won't be so easy to trade/move when the cap isn't going straight up like it has been for 30 years. Atlanta will be one of the few teams that will be able to take contracts from a team that doesn't want to get hit with taxes. So if they whiff on Jaylen in RFA they'll just move on to a team that's desperate to move talent/contract. Atlanta would be foolish to offer real talent for JB at the deadline, they aren't doing anything of consequence this season AND they can just sit back/field offers from the sellers next Summer.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nbas-losses-from-spat-with-china-substantial-adam-silver-says-161828430.html

 

[lexrageorge]

Pretty sure he’s an RFA at that point, but I’ll let the more knowledgeable CBA people comment on what type of contract that implies.

If a 2-way player is on the NBA roster (active or inactive) for at least 15 days, he becomes an RFA at the end of the season. So chances are high that Waters will be with the big club for 15 days this season. The qualifying offer amount would be $50K.

 

[DJnVa]

The nature of next summer’s free agent market means that everyone’s getting paid.

China says "Not so fast my friends..."

 

[nighthob]

My crystal ball regarding China is pretty foggy, but it sounds like its already affecting NBA revenues with Silver's comment yesterday.

IMO it has gone from a small probability to a much higher probability the salary cap flatlines ($109MM) or even goes significantly lower ($100MM?) next Summer. NBA Execs were expecting/budgeting $116MM just 10 days ago. At $116MM - there were only 5-6 teams able to bid for FA. Contracts won't be so easy to trade/move when the cap isn't going straight up like it has been for 30 years. Atlanta will be one of the few teams that will be able to take contracts from a team that doesn't want to get hit with taxes. So if they whiff on Jaylen in RFA they'll just move on to a team that's desperate to move talent/contract. Atlanta would be foolish to offer real talent for JB at the deadline, they aren't doing anything of consequence this season AND they can just sit back/field offers from the sellers next Summer.

The Hawks are desperate for a real draw to put butts in seats. That’s why the rumors have surfaced about their targeting of the local kid made good. I mean, sure, they can do nothing and add prime talent like Andrew Wiggins, but I suspect that someone like Brown will have a bigger impact there. And the potential falling cap makes Brown at the lower max an even more attractive get for Boston (because this is going to be a short term blip).

 

[nighthob]

China says "Not so fast my friends..."

Does it matter whether the four year free agent max is $120 million or $112 million?There just aren’t that many guys to spend the money on, so both Sabonis and Brown are getting paid. To be brutally frank, a one year blip lowering the max helps Boston with Brown by creating a really attractive deal for them to have in house.

 

[DJnVa]

So, when will we get word on the decisions? Is there a deadline?

 

[the moops]

Oct. 21 -- Rosters set for NBA Opening Day (5 p.m. ET)

 

[DJnVa]

Oct. 21 -- Rosters set for NBA Opening Day (5 p.m. ET)

Thanks.

Just saw this:
View: https://twitter.com/Tom_NBA/status/1185211205109063681

 

[DJnVa]

I'm guessing TL is going to miss at least the opener:

View: https://twitter.com/RedsArmy_John/status/1185229234719154176

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Thanks.

Just saw this:
View: https://twitter.com/Tom_NBA/status/1185211205109063681

Funny, Westerholm states in his article that: "If Strus doesn’t make the team, he will have an opportunity to play for the Maine Red Claws, unless another team makes him an offer. "

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. https://2ways10days.com/theres-a-new-50k-rule-involving-the-nba-g-league-e0c658b085.

Maybe this should go into one of the "Things that bother you" thread but why don't a lot of reporters ever take the time to learn about the sports they cover?

 

[NomarsFool]

Still SSS, but I'm beginning to feel like TL is made of glass. It seems like he is never able to play for a consistent period of time without coming down with some sort of injury.

 

[DJnVa]

Still SSS, but I'm beginning to feel like TL is made of glass. It seems like he is never able to play for a consistent period of time without coming down with some sort of injury.

Kinda tough to blame him getting concussed from a Kevin Love elbow to the face.

I mean, I know you're not really doing this, but it's not the same as him pulling a hamstring every few weeks or something.

 

[benhogan]

The Hawks are desperate for a real draw to put butts in seats. That’s why the rumors have surfaced about their targeting of the local kid made good. I mean, sure, they can do nothing and add prime talent like Andrew Wiggins, but I suspect that someone like Brown will have a bigger impact there. And the potential falling cap makes Brown at the lower max an even more attractive get for Boston (because this is going to be a short term blip).

Can you attach those Hawk rumors, I have yet to read anything that has them linked to JB?

Agreed. Brown's RFA price should be coming down, which benefits the Celtics

Wiggins (prime talent?) w/his contract would need some 1st round picks stapled to him to be traded now, with a lower cap he's untradeable. If we see a $100MM cap next Summer we'll see a ton of talent available much better than Andrew Wiggins and cheaper. AND no one knows if this China situation will be a short term blip.

 

[Big John]

Perhaps the extension talks between the Pacers and Sabonis aren't going so well.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/pacers-reportedly-testing-trade-market-000009729.html

 

[DJnVa]

The Athletic has it too: https://theathletic.com/1305800/2019/10/18/sources-pacers-big-man-domantas-sabonis-might-be-on-the-move/

 

[lovegtm]

I think Indy is going to end up having to deal him, because you can’t pay 2 guys $20Mish to play the same non-premium position.

I just don’t really see how a Sabonis deal works for the Celtics: I’d rather pay Jaylen ~25M to play the 2-4, and then find Baynes/Amir Johnson 2.0. If you trade for Sabonis, you’re always going to be unhappy that he doesn’t quite fill the right holes on this roster.

Sabonis is a good player, but with the Celtics are close enough to contention that they need to really go for fit at the center position, and even think in terms of specific playoff matchups (Embiid, Giannis). Someone like Marc Gasol would be perfect, but that’s not happening for salary-matching reasons.

 

[benhogan]

I think Indy is going to end up having to deal him, because you can’t pay 2 guys $20Mish to play the same non-premium position.

I just don’t really see how a Sabonis deal works for the Celtics: I’d rather pay Jaylen ~25M to play the 2-4, and then find Baynes/Amir Johnson 2.0. If you trade for Sabonis, you’re always going to be unhappy that he doesn’t quite fill the right holes on this roster.

Sabonis is a good player, but with the Celtics are close enough to contention that they need to really go for fit at the center position, and even think in terms of specific playoff matchups (Embiid, Giannis). Someone like Marc Gasol would be perfect, but that’s not happening for salary-matching reasons.

Yep, been saying Sabonis would eventually be available since Indy drafted Bitadze. I thought Pritchard may wait until the trade deadline to dangle Sabonis but in light of the cap/China issue he's being shrewd and getting ahead of this evolving situation. Also, Goga showed promise in preseason and can fill Indy's back-up 5 with Leaf.

While I've advocated for Danny getting Sabonis since July, I agree with plenty of what you said above. BUT I do have a quibble with you calling Sabonis "Baynes/Amir Johnson 2.0" Those vets played part-time for the Celtics, Sabonis would be a 30mpg player. Domantas is trending more like Horford/young Baynes 2.0. Sabonis has Al's offensive and Bayne's defensive potential, in a Brad/Celtic system. Except you'd be getting Sabonis' prime 24-27 aged seasons.

Marc Gasol isn't perfect IMO. BIGs skills deteriorate quickly, he's old (34), a step slower, can't switch on the perimeter, expensive and doesn't match up with the Celtics timeline (2021 and beyond). There's a good chance Gasol will breakdown this year after playing all postseason with Toronto and with Spain this Summer. I wouldn't touch him.

Your right Indy can't pay Turner $18MM (a good contract) and Sabonis ~$20-25MM (what his RFA deal will be is a little cloudy now) to play the same position. Their cap will be over ~$100MM next Summer (with VO due up the following season). From Indy's perspective, Jaylen Brown would be tantalizing, but Danny probably isn't offering them JB. So you don't have to be concerned about vacating Jaylen Brown Island. From USA Basketball and preseason Jaylen has shown a lot, he is much bigger/stronger than last season and at his age his strength will only continue to increase. His handle appears to be a bit better. Jaylen has clearly put in the work and has developed from a 2 as a rookie to a swing 4 now and fits perfectly into the Celtics system/timeline, as you predicted. I expect Jaylen to go to RFA and get a contract next Summer.

Danny should offer Langford (Mr. Indiana), TL and a 2020 Milwaukee or Celtic 1st round pick for Sabonis in the odd chance Pritchard wants a handful of young, cheap players with some promise. BUT I agree w/mcpickl that Kevin will pass on that and probably ship him out West (guessing San Antonio?). I'd be thrilled for the Celtics to get Sabonis and think he'd be a perfect fit but Pritchard isn't going to shore up the Celtic's biggest weakness with a future All-Star.

 

[Big John]

I believe that Langford, another young guy or two and the Memphis pick would top any offer that Pritchard could get-- by a mile. But as good as Sabonis is, it's an overpay.

 

[lovegtm]

Sorry, let me clarify: I meant that, even though Sabonis projects to be far better than Johnson or Baynes, the C’s current roster needs the latter type of player more. This team could be very good with a lunchpail/defense-first center.

All that said, I’d consider trading the MEM pick for Sabonis in a vacuum, since I think he’s quite good and you could build a good defemse with his smarts+wing length. The problem is that then you’re paying 4-5 guys on big deals—Kemba, Brown, Hayward, Sabonis, and Tatum when his next deal hits. That’s basically not possible unless Wyc is ready to go to insane spending places, and so the redundancy in Sabonis’ skill set makes it all not quite work imo.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

All I can say is that y'all are cray cray to even think about trading the MEM pick for Sabonis. I don't see DA isn't trading that pick.

 

[benhogan]

All I can say is that y'all are cray cray to even think about trading the MEM pick for Sabonis. I don't see DA isn't trading that pick.

Yea. You'd have to pry that pick from my cold dying hands.

Memphis pick is a bridge too far.

We can offer volume of promising youngsters: Langford, Celts 2020 #1, TL ( in effect three 1st round picks) because we have Mil 2020 and Memphis pick. Plus it looks like we hit the 2019 draft lottery w/ Grant, Arsen, Waters.

 

[benhogan]

Sorry, let me clarify: I meant that, even though Sabonis projects to be far better than Johnson or Baynes, the C’s current roster needs the latter type of player more. This team could be very good with a lunchpail/defense-first center.

All that said, I’d consider trading the MEM pick for Sabonis in a vacuum, since I think he’s quite good and you could build a good defemse with his smarts+wing length. The problem is that then you’re paying 4 guys on big deals—Kemba, Brown, Hayward, Sabonis, and Tatum when his next deal hits. That’s basically not possible unless Wyc is ready to go to insane spending places, and so the redundancy in Sabonis’ skill set makes it all not quite work imo.

yea, those are 2 very fair points.

Unless VP surprises us with his defense, I think Danny will settle for a rim protector at the 5 like Nerlens Noel and pick him up at the trade deadline

 

[lovegtm]

yea, those are 2 very fair points.

Unless VP surprises us with his defense, I think Danny will settle for a rim protector at the 5 like Nerlens Noel and pick him up at the trade deadline

Can Noel cover Embiid? I feel like he’s too skinny.

Unless the center being acquired can match up with Embiid, he’s not going to be much of an upgrade over just going with Theis.

 

[benhogan]

Can Noel cover Embiid? I feel like he’s too skinny.

Unless the center being acquired can match up with Embiid, he’s not going to be much of an upgrade over just going with Theis.

Noel is defensively gifted and could front Joel. His defensive metrics are pretty impressive. He's nothing more than a 15-20mpg defensive specialist.

If going with girth, ala Baynes punisher treatment, is the antidote to Embiid then we'll probably see if VP is up to the task.

Since we're never going to spend big at the 5 we'll always have to go by committee against Embiid. A combo of Noel/VP showing Joel different defensive looks every 5 minutes could frustrate/confuse Embiid.

We'll get to see how Theis fares. I've always liked Theis and felt he played hard. If he can challenge Embiid shots down low, make Joel work, annoy him, pound the ball/waste shot clock and force a turnover or two I'd take that. Daniel's decent 3pt shot should be able to take Embiid out of the defensive paint and on to the perimeter.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/noelne01.html

 

[pjheff]

If going with girth, ala Baynes punisher treatment, is the antidote to Embiid then we'll probably see if VP is up to the task.

Does Poirier bring girth? He’s listed at 235 lbs. on Wikipedia (255 lbs. on ESPN), and I thought he looked pretty thin on the court.

 

[benhogan]

Does Poirier bring girth? He’s listed at 235 lbs. on Wikipedia (255 lbs. on ESPN), and I thought he looked pretty thin on the court.

Maybe its the beard, tattoos', and style of play that makes VP look terrifying (lose the frosted tips Euro dude)

But you're correct that VP (7' 235lbs) is nowhere near as big as All of Australia. Maybe Theis can punish at 6'8"245lbs? We know he's capable of hacking up a storm.

https://weei.radio.com/blogs/nick-friar/nba-remeasurements-didn-t-work-tacko-fall-s-favor
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ByF_O_YICs

 

[lovegtm]

Noel is defensively gifted and could front Joel. His defensive metrics are pretty impressive. He's nothing more than a 15-20mpg defensive specialist.

If going with girth, ala Baynes punisher treatment, is the antidote to Embiid then we'll probably see if VP is up to the task.

Since we're never going to spend big at the 5 we'll always have to go by committee against Embiid. A combo of Noel/VP showing Joel different defensive looks every 5 minutes could frustrate/confuse Embiid.

We'll get to see how Theis fares. I've always liked Theis and felt he played hard. If he can challenge Embiid shots down low, make Joel work, annoy him, pound the ball/waste shot clock and force a turnover or two I'd take that. Daniel's decent 3pt shot should be able to take Embiid out of the defensive paint and on to the perimeter.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/noelne01.html

If the Celtics wanted Noel, he'd already be a Celtic. Most of the league seems to have soured on him, despite his physical gifts.

Re Embiid--a lot of questions will be answered on the 23rd:
1. Can Theis front/defend Embiid without fouling out in 10 minutes? (I'm pessimistic)
2. Can VP defend Embiid? (I think this has some chance to work, but maybe the tats and 7-0 in socks are biasing me).
3. Can Kanter be a Philly Specialist (pun intended)? He's played Embiid decently in the past iirc, and Philly doesn't really have PnR shooters to put him in tough spots, so this weirdly might be a good matchup for him.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I think Indy is going to end up having to deal him, because you can’t pay 2 guys $20Mish to play the same non-premium position.

I just don’t really see how a Sabonis deal works for the Celtics: I’d rather pay Jaylen ~25M to play the 2-4, and then find Baynes/Amir Johnson 2.0. If you trade for Sabonis, you’re always going to be unhappy that he doesn’t quite fill the right holes on this roster.

Sabonis is a good player, but with the Celtics are close enough to contention that they need to really go for fit at the center position, and even think in terms of specific playoff matchups (Embiid, Giannis). Someone like Marc Gasol would be perfect, but that’s not happening for salary-matching reasons.

This is exactly how I see it---Sabonis is perhaps the "best guy available right now" to fill the big man gap, but he's not really the right guy. And thus, it's not worth giving up a major asset to fill that hole given the team isn't a title contender

 

[lovegtm]

The funny thing is, Baynes himself would be basically perfect with Kemba, not-hurt Hayward, and upgraded Jays. I don't think he's durable enough at this point in his career to be that guy for 30+ mins/night, but it gives an idea of what to shoot for and how much it should cost. Burly guys with decent footspeed/smarts/positioning, but without leaping ability and shooting, can be had for not too much money, and would fit well with the current roster.

The money is going to be very relevant when Jaylen and Tatum get paid, especially if Hayward performs well and re-ups at some amount. There just won't be enough to also pay a center.

 

[Cellar-Door]

View: https://twitter.com/celtics/status/1185662065626755073


Strus released, Javonte Green makes the final 15 (for now)

 

[Koufax]

Poor Max. From a 2-way contract to a guaranteed deal to the street. They must have liked what Javonte brought to the table. Maybe Carsen Edwards' sharpshooting made Max more expendable.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Poor Max. From a 2-way contract to a guaranteed deal to the street. They must have liked what Javonte brought to the table. Maybe Carsen Edwards' sharpshooting made Max more expendable.

Poor Max? He made $450K for a good couple of months of practice. Bet he finds an overseas gig. I'm sure DA's conteact upgrade was to help Strus tryout for Cs next year if he doesn't hook on with another NBA team.

 

[benhogan]

View: https://twitter.com/celtics/status/1185662065626755073


Strus released, Javonte Green makes the final 15 (for now)

Green came out of nowhere to play himself on an NBA roster. Not easy to pull off at 26. Very impressive.

Strus will collect his nice Celtic paycheck and probably head overseas. Good luck to him!

 

[Big John]

I could see Strus being picked up on waivers or signed as a free agent by an NBA team looking for a shooting specialist.

 

[Reverend]

Green came out of nowhere to play himself on an NBA roster. Not easy to pull off at 26. Very impressive.

Strus will collect his nice Celtic paycheck and probably head overseas. Good luck to him!

I mentioned it before, but it really sounds like he had a different kind of commitment from Danny coming in. Obviously not a guarantee, but I think it makes it less surprising.

 

[benhogan]

I mentioned it before, but it really sounds like he had a different kind of commitment from Danny coming in. Obviously not a guarantee, but I think it makes it less surprising.

it didn't hurt that Green completely outplayed Strus on the court

 

[Reverend]

it didn't hurt that Green completely outplayed Strus on the court

It’s felt to me like Strus has been hanging around, but only just hanging around.

I guess practices were awesome? Still, even though Strus is younger this seemed to me where things were heading-not that that places me alone on an island with that smoldering take.