Celtics 16/17 Roster and Assets

luckiestman

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I don't know, I go back and forth on Wall. Six months ago the answer would have been no, but his play has taken a leap forward this year, so now I'm back to wondering if a coach like Stevens could build a team around Wall/Hayward/Horford. Boston would still have Jaylen Brown and the 2018 #1 to supplement what they had (I would expect that the deal would be Fultz/Smart/whatever for Wall, the last part being whatever they got for Lil' Zeke).

Good thing we ain't making the decision then, cause I don't know either. I do like John Wall though.
 

nighthob

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One deal to look at would be, health permitting, Avery Bradley for Khris Middleton. Bradley would make a huge difference to the Bucks' defense by moving into his optimal role (the de facto shooting guard that defends the PG spot). They actually improve their shooting slightly to boot.

Boston, meanwhile, gets to put normal sized lineups on the floor to close out games by replacing the 6'2" SG with a 6'7" F, and getting Smart into the backcourt.
 

luckiestman

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One deal to look at would be, health permitting, Avery Bradley for Khris Middleton. Bradley would make a huge difference to the Bucks' defense by moving into his optimal role (the de facto shooting guard that defends the PG spot). They actually improve their shooting slightly to boot.

Boston, meanwhile, gets to put normal sized lineups on the floor to close out games by replacing the 6'2" SG with a 6'7" F, and getting Smart into the backcourt.

Very logical for both teams but on an emotional level I would miss AB. He's everything I want in a player except he needs to be 3 inches taller
 

mcpickl

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Oh I agree with that. That contract of his makes him a real valuable trade asset. But I the Wiz will obviously be looking for a huge haul. Philly could probably have him, but thankfully they're not likely to pay the toll charge. Boston would, but they'd need Fultz as a centerpiece.
For sure. And there's no way it happens without Wall forcing his way out.

I just imagine there are agent types in his ear every day saying, you know John, if your GM wasn't a first class dunce, he could've just given you the 16M he gave Ian Mahimni and maxed you out this summer. He cost you 40 million bucks.

Wall might be a prince of a dude but if I was hearing that chirping every day, I know every time Mahimni walked past me in the locker room I'd be thinking that mother effer got my money. And my idiot GM gave it to him over me.
 

nighthob

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Very logical for both teams but on an emotional level I would miss AB. He's everything I want in a player except he needs to be 3 inches taller
I'd miss him too, but their short short end of game lineups featuring three guys 6'4" and under and a barely 6'6" guy get burned too often. Assuming that Middleton could get healthy, that deal would improve both teams defensively.
 

nighthob

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For sure. And there's no way it happens without Wall forcing his way out.

I just imagine there are agent types in his ear every day saying, you know John, if your GM wasn't a first class dunce, he could've just given you the 16M he gave Ian Mahimni and maxed you out this summer. He cost you 40 million bucks.

Wall might be a prince of a dude but if I was hearing that chirping every day, I know every time Mahimni walked past me in the locker room I'd be thinking that mother effer got my money. And my idiot GM gave it to him over me.
I agree with this, Wall is playing the good soldier, but privately he has to be annoyed. So he very well could try and force his way out. And I suspect that Ainge is one of the few guys that would be willing to pay the toll to get him (again, assuming that Boston landed the first pick and Fultz). Too many other GMs are risk averse. And Wall's contract does lend itself to generating the necessary cap room for Boston to chase after Hayward and then hope that Brown and their 2018 draftee pan out.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I'm still secretly waiting on Larry Sanders, who loves sending cryptic tweets because he knows people are watching. One of his latest was that he's spending "New Years in Boston..."
 

RedOctober3829

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Steve Kyler, in another one of his frequent Twitter Q&A's, confirms that Ainge is currently looking to make a big trade and has been all year. This goes along with Ainge's comments on Toucher and Rich this week that they have had trade discussions and that this year's Brooklyn pick is not untouchable.

 

slamminsammya

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Interesting breakdown by Coach Nick, whose videos I really appreciate. Thinks we should be seeing more Olynyk and Horford in the frountcourt and less Johnson and Horford.
 

ifmanis5

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Steve Kyler, in another one of his frequent Twitter Q&A's, confirms that Ainge is currently looking to make a big trade and has been all year. This goes along with Ainge's comments on Toucher and Rich this week that they have had trade discussions and that this year's Brooklyn pick is not untouchable.
He better be driving a way harder bargain than giving away the future on draft night for Justice Winslow again. Thank God that fell through.
 

the moops

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He better be driving a way harder bargain than giving away the future on draft night for Justice Winslow again. Thank God that fell through.
I dont think the actual picks were ever disclosed, but I doubt they included either BRK pick or MEM pick. So it was probably 16 (Rozier) and 28 (Hunter) and some combination of future mid to low first rounders.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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more updates on Zizic here, including these highlights. One thing looks pretty clear - he's way more athletic than Colton Iverson.


Another article said that Zizic's first Euroleague game came against former NBA'er Joey Dorsey and as Dorsey had only two points, six rebounds in the game, Zizic apparently played pretty well against him. (source).
 

Cellar-Door

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Most rumors had it at six total picks.
Based on the rumors I remember someone hashed it out as likely:
16/28/33 that year, Own 2016, Twolves 2016 1st (protected into 2nd) and another 2nd.
That is based off it being 6 picks with the possibility of 4 1sts.

Funny thing is, in hindsight I would make that trade likely, but to select Myles Turner not Winslow.
 

ifmanis5

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Based on the rumors I remember someone hashed it out as likely:
16/28/33 that year, Own 2016, Twolves 2016 1st (protected into 2nd) and another 2nd.
That is based off it being 6 picks with the possibility of 4 1sts.

Funny thing is, in hindsight I would make that trade likely, but to select Myles Turner not Winslow.
Agreed, Turner would be worth it. I liked him a lot.
 

the moops

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I can't imagine Ainge was giving up an unprotected BRK pick to move up 6 slots in the draft. I mean, maybe, but man, that is highly questionable.
 

moondog80

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I can't imagine Ainge was giving up an unprotected BRK pick to move up 6 slots in the draft. I mean, maybe, but man, that is highly questionable.

Lowe reports it as the 16th and 15th (which they would have acquired somehow) picks from 2015, the Memphis pick, and an unprotected Brooklyn pick for the #9 pick in 2015. There is zero chance that Boston offered that, and an only slightly better chance (because Michael Jordan) that Charlotte would have said no, that they just had to have Frank Kaminsky. Granted, Brooklyn might not have looked like they would be #1 pick bad at the time, but they had just finished 38-44 and everyone could see that they were just Brook Lopez and a bunch of old guys. Those picks definitely looked like lottery picks. Unless Danny Ainge tells me himself that it happened, I will never believe it.
 

cheech13

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Isn't there something to be said on the Cs trying to get their best team together a couple of years from now when perhaps GSW and CLE have fallen off?
That seems like an overly risky proposition to me. While you want to weigh short versus long term benefits of any deal, you have to capitalize on the opportunities you have. Boston has two All-Stars under contract right now. They have a top five coach, a good GM and stable ownership. Don't take that for granted. If you can add an elite talent like Wall or Butler you do it and you don't worry about what Golden State or Cleveland are doing. Success is fleeting. In 2010 Miami looked like they'd dominate the league for a half decade or more and they won just two championships.

What's the best case scenario for Brown and the next two Brooklyn picks? Is it something like the Wiggins/KAT/Dunn group that Minny has? Well that team can't even make the playoffs now. So if that's the case you're not talking about pushing out your contending period three or four years from now; you're really talking six to eight and who knows what the league or team looks like then.
 

NoXInNixon

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The difference between our three consecutive top 5 picks is that we're adding them to a team good enough to make it to the ECF. I can't think of any similar situation in NBA history. Usually the #3 pick goes to a bad team on which he's good enough to start and get lots of touches. On the Celtics, Brown is coming off the bench. It's much better for his long term development. If they draft a point guard this year, even if it's Fultz or Ball, he also won't start next year. Plus, they'll be practicing against legit NBA starters which will also be great for their development.

I don't want them to trade any of the Brooklyn picks for anything short of players who aren't available.
 

cheech13

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Fair point but it's also not common for a top ten team to have the assets available to acquire All-Star talent without giving up anything on the active roster.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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What's the best case scenario for Brown and the next two Brooklyn picks?
Best case scenario is that you get Curry / Klay / Draymond.

If it was my decision, I'd roll the dice on getting the #1 pick this year and being able to figure out if there's someone who is going to be a top 5 player just because no matter who the Cs pick up (other than maybe Anthony Davis), the Cs are going to be decided underdogs in the playoffs assuming GSW and CLE stay healthy.

But I would completely understand if DA cashed in his chips.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Fair point but it's also not common for a top ten team to have the assets available to acquire All-Star talent without giving up anything on the active roster.
Ok, the ball's a little different, but the Sox did just trade non-roster assets for Chris Sale...

I lean toward keeping the BKN picks (esp. this year's) unless Ainge can get a controllable, relatively young, top 20 guy. Butler would qualify. Millsap would not.
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
The value of Sale in MLB is the value of Durant/Lebron/Curry/Harden/Russ. Not many in that level.

Man do the Cs need a rim protector. How low will the sixers go for Noel? Could Kelly get him straight up? Kelly has performed well, we just need more of what Noel offers than what Kelly does.
 

BigSoxFan

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The value of Sale in MLB is the value of Durant/Lebron/Curry/Harden/Russ. Not many in that level.

Man do the Cs need a rim protector. How low will the sixers go for Noel? Could Kelly get him straight up? Kelly has performed well, we just need more of what Noel offers than what Kelly does.
Olynyk straight up for Noel? Not a chance. They have Saric primed and ready to go for that role for the next 5 years.
 

bowiac

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Olynyk straight up for Noel? Not a chance. They have Saric primed and ready to go for that role for the next 5 years.
That's a strange thing to say. First, Saric really can't play center right now, while that really is Olynyk's position. Second, has Saric shown much yet? His 3PT% is fine, but his overall FG% is awful, which drags down his efficiency to the point that he's probably done more harm than good while on the court.

I agree the Sixers probably wouldn't move Noel for Olynyk, but I don't think Saric is really a block. It's more that Olynyk has a weird skillset. I think it's a good skillset, although reasonable minds can differ I concede.
 

Devizier

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Is Ibaka really going to get a max contract this summer?

Probably, I guess. But I wouldn't mind seeing him as a rotational forward, which is not what you give a max contract (or anywhere close it, really).
 

BigSoxFan

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That's a strange thing to say. First, Saric really can't play center right now, while that really is Olynyk's position. Second, has Saric shown much yet? His 3PT% is fine, but his overall FG% is awful, which drags down his efficiency to the point that he's probably done more harm than good while on the court.

I agree the Sixers probably wouldn't move Noel for Olynyk, but I don't think Saric is really a block. It's more that Olynyk has a weird skillset. I think it's a good skillset, although reasonable minds can differ I concede.
Saric is 22 and has barely gotten his feet wet in the NBA. And he's definitely had his moments. The shooting form is legit but the results haven't quite caught up. I watched him at the Sixers training facility opening and he was one of the more competitive guys out there and was drilling everything. High on him as a rotational stretch big. Don't think he'll ever match Olynyk's defense but I see him as having similar overall value to a team once he gets more experience and once he gets to play with Simmons and potentially a Lonzo Ball type. Right now the Sixers' guards are so awful that it's hard to evaluate anyone and especially a rookie.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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No need to panic, but until we find our elite wing + a rim protector we're just kicking the can down the road.

I'm fine with building around Smart, Brown, and the Brooklyn picks until CLE and Lebron get old. We won't even beat Toronto without some type of move.
 
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ElcaballitoMVP

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No need to panic, but until we find our elite wing + a rim protector we're just kicking the can down the road.

I'm fine with building around Smart, Brown, and the Brooklyn picks until CLE and Lebron get old. We won't even beat Toronto without some type of move.
I'd imagine this is the path Danny's taking. Throw out offers for the big names to see if someone will bite, but protect the big assets like Brown and the Brooklyn picks from deals for guys like Milsap.

As enticing as those Brooklyn picks are, you move them if they can net you a Jimmy Butler-type talent but I don't see Danny moving them for anything less than someone who can give us a legitimate chance to get to the finals. But if that player isn't available, the alternative of standing pat is still extremely promising.
 

moondog80

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Here's what I said in the other thread...Nurkic has all the makings of a player who will explode with full time minutes. 16.6 points and 11.9 rebounds per 36 minutes, only 22 years old. Zeller leads the Celtics with 8.7 rebounds (and only 12.2 points). I think it's a leap of faith to think Zizic will produce at that level. His rep had been that he can't stay out of foul trouble, but his PF /36 is down to 4 this year from 6 last year and 6.8 the year before. That's still not great but it's less than Amir and Olynyk and just a touch above Zeller.

He's signed for the same length of time as Smart (next year plus an option), for less money. I'd make the deal in a heartbeat. Either that or some combo of future BOS picks and the stashed guys,
 

kazuneko

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Per Zack Lowe on Nurkic and the "main reason" he's hurting for playing time - his hideous turnover rate.
"The Bosnian Beast has coughed it up on 20 percent of the possessions he has finished with a shot, drawn foul, or turnover -- a gargantuan number for a big man. Only 10 guys 6-foot-10 or taller have ever tossed away so many possessions while hoarding as large a share of offense as Nurkic."
 

bowiac

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Nurkic is a fun piece that I'd love for the Celtics to have, but realistically, he's a tough fit as a developmental guy for a team that has a lot of bigs already. He makes more sense for a team that has a lot of minutes to give him, and doesn't care about wins and losses.
 

the1andonly3003

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Nurkic is a fun piece that I'd love for the Celtics to have, but realistically, he's a tough fit as a developmental guy for a team that has a lot of bigs already. He makes more sense for a team that has a lot of minutes to give him, and doesn't care about wins and losses.
so like the Sixers? Noel/Okafor for Nurkic? o_O
 

moondog80

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Nurkic is a fun piece that I'd love for the Celtics to have, but realistically, he's a tough fit as a developmental guy for a team that has a lot of bigs already. He makes more sense for a team that has a lot of minutes to give him, and doesn't care about wins and losses.
You wouldn't want to dump Amir and give his minutes to Nurkic (for starters)?
 

Big John

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Nurkic was woefully out of shape last year but reportedly lost 35 lbs over the Summer to bring his weight down to a svelte 280. I wonder if he will have the same kinds of issues Sullinger had.
 

bowiac

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You wouldn't want to dump Amir and give his minutes to Nurkic (for starters)?
You mean for purely developmental reasons? Nurkic isn't good. Anytime he's on the court instead of Amir would be bad for the product on the floor. I wouldn't cry if they did that or anything, but given the trajectory of the team, I don't think they want to take a step backwards in order to develop Nurkic.
 

moondog80

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Combined over two leagues (he moved up to a more competitive league just after Christmas), Zizic is shooting 69% from the field (69%) and 64/82 from the line (79%). The gaudy FG% could just be a function of the defense being played, but a free throw is a free throw, right? I love guys who can rebound and be above average from the line.

Burning question in my mind is, where would he (and Yabusele) rank in the draft rankings right now if they were eligible?
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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Combined over two leagues (he moved up to a more competitive league just after Christmas), Zizic is shooting 69% from the field (69%) and 64/82 from the line (79%). The gaudy FG% could just be a function of the defense being played, but a free throw is a free throw, right? I love guys who can rebound and be above average from the line.

Burning question in my mind is, where would he (and Yabusele) rank in the draft rankings right now if they were eligible?
I don't think their rankings would be changed all that much. They've obviously improved their stock with how well they've played, but I'd put them in the 11-20 range at best right now because this draft is just that much better than last year.

Fultz, Ball, Smith, Jackson, Monk, Tatum, Ntilikina, Isaac, Giles, Fox are all firmly ahead of those guys in the top 10. I'd probably put them in the Markkanen, Abedayo, Leaf range below those top names. Zizic would likely take the biggest jump from 23 up to the 11-20 range, but I'd say Yabu would be right around the same spot. Their development is great to see, but competition levels need to be taken into consideration and the top college guys have huge upside, which keeps them from moving up much compared to last year.
 

moondog80

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I don't think their rankings would be changed all that much. They've obviously improved their stock with how well they've played, but I'd put them in the 11-20 range at best right now because this draft is just that much better than last year.

Fultz, Ball, Smith, Jackson, Monk, Tatum, Ntilikina, Isaac, Giles, Fox are all firmly ahead of those guys in the top 10. I'd probably put them in the Markkanen, Abedayo, Leaf range below those top names. Zizic would likely take the biggest jump from 23 up to the 11-20 range, but I'd say Yabu would be right around the same spot. Their development is great to see, but competition levels need to be taken into consideration and the top college guys have huge upside, which keeps them from moving up much compared to last year.
Point taken about the difference in draft classes, so instead I'll ask where they would go in a 2016 re-draft. Basically I'm trying to get a handle on just how much their stock has gone up.
 

amfox1

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Point taken about the difference in draft classes, so instead I'll ask where they would go in a 2016 re-draft. Basically I'm trying to get a handle on just how much their stock has gone up.
I think Zizic's stock has gone up because his ceiling seems more attainable. I think he'd project into the high teens. Same for Yabusele, to a lesser extent. He seemed like an overdraft at the time - now, less so. I think he'd project into the second half of the first round.