Celtic off-court discussion

benhogan

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Wondering what TJ Warren gets at this point.

Lots of interesting names on that list, though I'm guessing many are outside of the C"s price range. I'd love Jalen Smith. Bryant hasn't impressed me much since coming back from injury but it's early.

I like Hamidou too. I can't see him breaking the bank. Bobby Portis would be great but he's going to get paid.
The C's have the roster spots, not much in the way of draft picks (which steal minutes from vets), so a vet may want to ring chase here.

Someone like Jalen Smith may read the Horford tea leaves and think there could be a starting role available?

With everyone going "small", the Celtics 2BIGz may also attract the big fellas looking for minutes (Portis would be sweet)

Also, good defenders (Hamidou, Delon, Slo-Mo, GP2) know they'll be valued on this roster.
 

Cellar-Door

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The C's have the roster spots, not much in the way of draft picks (which steal minutes from vets), so a vet may want to ring chase here.

Someone like Jalen Smith may read the Horford tea leaves and think there could be a starting role available?

With everyone going "small", the Celtics 2BIGz may also attract the big fellas looking for minutes (Portis would be sweet)

Also, good defenders (Hamidou, Delon, Slo-Mo, GP2) know they'll be valued on this roster.
yeah if they get Smith I think it's because he says "okay, either Al gets traded and I get big minutes, OR... Al stays, but he's old so I get minutes backing him up and I'm in line to replace him on a contenderwith most of their core both young and locked up
 

Cesar Crespo

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yeah if they get Smith I think it's because he says "okay, either Al gets traded and I get big minutes, OR... Al stays, but he's old so I get minutes backing him up and I'm in line to replace him on a contenderwith most of their core both young and locked up
What's the most another team (aka not the Pacers) can offer Smith? It can't be the max?

Only way I see him signing with the C's is if it's not that big a hit financially. The best thing for his growth would probably be getting 20-25 minutes as the 7th man on a team like the C's, and taking over the starter role in 23/24 (30+ minutes). I'm not sure that's the best thing for his wallet though.

I've probably looked it up before but Jalen Smith has a 7'2 wingspan and 9'2 standing reach. While he still has a lot of projection left, he looks like an NBA player at least. He's also a perfect fit for the C's on paper. Fits in age wise, should be affordable, has length. Can score inside/out. Should be at least average on D, could be better.

Having a TL/JS/JT/JB/Smart and DW locked up for multiple years as your core is pretty good. And could possibly be maintainable beyond the next 3-4 years.
 

Cellar-Door

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What's the most another team (aka not the Pacers) can offer Smith? It can't be the max?

Only way I see him signing with the C's is if it's not that big a hit financially. The best thing for his growth would probably be getting 20-25 minutes as the 7th man on a team like the C's, and taking over the starter role in 23/24 (30+ minutes). I'm not sure that's the best thing for his wallet though.

I've probably looked it up before but Jalen Smith has a 7'2 wingspan and 9'2 standing reach. While he still has a lot of projection left, he looks like an NBA player at least. He's also a perfect fit for the C's on paper. Fits in age wise, should be affordable, has length. Can score inside/out. Should be at least average on D, could be better.

Having a TL/JS/JT/JB/Smart and DW locked up for multiple years as your core is pretty good. And could possibly be maintainable beyond the next 3-4 years.
yeah anyone but the Pacers can give him whatever they want. On the other hand, he only has 16 games of good play on his resume and PHO had to staple a 2nd to him for Torrey Craig, so it's tough to judge. I'd guess his options will be:
Tax MLE for a contender
Somewhere between 7M a year and the non-tax MLE from a non-contender.
Of course there's always the chance a team says "screw it we see a star" and blows him away with a big deal.

I put his odds of being a Celtic pretty low, he'd have to leave money on the table likely, but they should kick the tires at the Tax MLE and see if they can sell him on contention, a role, and a development plan, over more minutes/money in a bad situation.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Wondering what TJ Warren gets at this point.

Lots of interesting names on that list, though I'm guessing many are outside of the C"s price range. I'd love Jalen Smith. Bryant hasn't impressed me much since coming back from injury but it's early.

I like Hamidou too. I can't see him breaking the bank. Bobby Portis would be great but he's going to get paid.
I don’t think Portis is the type to get paid. He’s partially insane and not the type a team would commit big years or dollars toward.
 

lexrageorge

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Is Beal 100% not possible now? I mean if he stays with WAS I get it but when did that go from a thing to not a thing?
It's possible, although the Celtics would need to ship out Horford plus other salaries to avoid going over the tax apron. So it is an open question if the Celtics would risk dumping Horford and picks to get a possibly broken down Beal who can't defend and whose 3 point shooting has dropped precipitously over the past couple of seasons. Does that really improve the Celtics chances?

I know people were talking about Beal going to the Nets being a done deal, but I don't see that being possible at all unless Simmons get shipped or Kyriexit happens.
 

benhogan

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Is Beal 100% not possible now? I mean if he stays with WAS I get it but when did that go from a thing to not a thing?
Celtics already have their 3rd star
a healthy, big minutes Time Lord

The rumors I recently saw were Beal to Sixers for Tobias++
 

DGreenwood

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Is Beal 100% not possible now? I mean if he stays with WAS I get it but when did that go from a thing to not a thing?
I think people are just souring on the idea because he's going to make a lot of money and may not be exactly what this team needs. If they are going to target a sign and trade I'd much rather go after Zach Lavine than Beal. Also, there's the rumor below.
I know people were talking about Beal going to the Nets being a done deal, but I don't see that being possible at all unless Simmons get shipped or Kyriexit happens.
Is it possible that it's the Sixers you're thinking of? The rumor is that he wants to play with Embiid and Harden.
 

BigSoxFan

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I don't have any interest in trading assets and committing big $$ for Beal's 29-32 seasons. Seems like a much better fit for Philly if they can turn Harris/Maxey+ into Beal.
 

Cellar-Door

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Is Beal 100% not possible now? I mean if he stays with WAS I get it but when did that go from a thing to not a thing?
It's possible. I think it's fallen off in part because it was based on the team needing "SOMETHING" and he and Tatum being friends made it feel like that would keep Tatum happy.

Now that the Celtics have a clear identity and are playing well, and Tatum looks happy, people start looking at the years, the money and the always kinda sketchy fit.
Also Beal was bad this year then got hurt.
Beal is a 2 guard, who doesn't defend at all, and needs the ball to be successfull, but also can't be a #1 option.

I think people see the benefits of switching 1-5, playing insane D and letting Tatum and Brown handle the points and don't really want to go back to being a flawed defense with a ball dominant guard taking possessions and shots from the Jays.
 

benhogan

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It's possible. I think it's fallen off in part because it was based on the team needing "SOMETHING" and he and Tatum being friends made it feel like that would keep Tatum happy.

Now that the Celtics have a clear identity and are playing well, and Tatum looks happy, people start looking at the years, the money and the always kinda sketchy fit.
Also Beal was bad this year then got hurt.
Beal is a 2 guard, who doesn't defend at all, and needs the ball to be successfull, but also can't be a #1 option.

I think people see the benefits of switching 1-5, playing insane D and letting Tatum and Brown handle the points and don't really want to go back to being a flawed defense with a ball dominant guard taking possessions and shots from the Jays.
I'll 2nd that...
 

bsj

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Fair enough. I like what we have going I was really just curious what everyone’s thoughts were. Personally, if we were going to invest in another star I would rather it be for an elite 1. But yeah, if Timelord can truly develop into a star (he’s about 80% there IMO) it may be more about getting those
Targeted pieces who are great at one thing like an elite 3 pt bench guy, an elite defender, etc.
 

radsoxfan

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The Tobias Harris thing makes too much sense. I think the market for a maxed out Beal will not be particularly hot and hope the Celtics aren't involved.

The 76ers have a massively overpaid 3rd banana already, so I can understand trying to upgrade on that spot even if the new guy is also overpaid. The Wizards can probably talk themselves into Harris/young players/picks as better than nothing.
 

DGreenwood

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I'd like to expand on my comment above about Zach Lavine to see what people think. Maybe I'm squinting too hard to see what I want to see but here are some points that I think could point him in the direction of the Celtics:

1. A month ago Chicago was playing well and looked like a pretty good long term fit for Zach, especially because they can pay him the most. But they have lost 10 of their last 13 and could find themselves in a play-in game if they don't turn it around. Is this enough to have Zach looking to get out?

2. LaVine played with Tatum in the Olympics and Zach commented about all of the tampering that was going on between players. He didn't mention Tatum specifically of course.

3. Tatum and LaVine both train with Drew Hanlen and play together in Hanlen's summer runs.

4. Smart and LaVine played together on the USA Select team a few years ago and Smart said in an interview a couple months ago that LaVine was his favorite non-Celtic to watch. Could be a low key recruitment comment.

I know that is all a bunch of "not much" but if you're Lavine, at his age, and looking right now to create the next super team, what's an easier place to do it than Boston? For Boston to pull it off it would need to be a sign-and-trade, which would hard cap them and prevent them from doing much else this offseason, but would it be worth it?

I know it's a pipe dream, but I've been thinking about it for a couple months now. He doesn't have the best defensive reputation but with his size and athleticism he'd be a good fit with Boston's switchable approach, if he bought in.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'd like to expand on my comment above about Zach Lavine to see what people think. Maybe I'm squinting too hard to see what I want to see but here are some points that I think could point him in the direction of the Celtics:

1. A month ago Chicago was playing well and looked like a pretty good long term fit for Zach, especially because they can pay him the most. But they have lost 10 of their last 13 and could find themselves in a play-in game if they don't turn it around. Is this enough to have Zach looking to get out?

2. LaVine played with Tatum in the Olympics and Zach commented about all of the tampering that was going on between players. He didn't mention Tatum specifically of course.

3. Tatum and LaVine both train with Drew Hanlen and play together in Hanlen's summer runs.

4. Smart and LaVine played together on the USA Select team a few years ago and Smart said in an interview a couple months ago that LaVine was his favorite non-Celtic to watch. Could be a low key recruitment comment.

I know that is all a bunch of "not much" but if you're Lavine, at his age, and looking right now to create the next super team, what's an easier place to do it than Boston? For Boston to pull it off it would need to be a sign-and-trade, which would hard cap them and prevent them from doing much else this offseason, but would it be worth it?

I know it's a pipe dream, but I've been thinking about it for a couple months now. He doesn't have the best defensive reputation but with his size and athleticism he'd be a good fit with Boston's switchable approach, if he bought in.
Maybe? Everybody important is set to return anyway. Depends who they had to give up in the sign and trade.
 

Jakarta

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So if this is where we are discussing off-season possibilities, I will throw something crazy out that may make some people want to puke…

Lebron.

He’s rumored to want out of LA (what a shame!) to go to a contender. This hot streak certainly puts the Cs in that category.

They could trade Horford plus picks to get it done. A lot of other east contenders don’t have picks to get it done (Nets, Sixers, Bucks) and most contenders don’t have salary matches outside of the star players that Lebron would want to play alongside.

He seems to have great respect for JT, so perhaps would find it desirable to play with him in Boston.

Obviously it’s highly unlikely, but I think the Cs could put together a package this is as attractive as anyone else that would be on Lebron’s list of acceptable destinations.
 

benhogan

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I'd like to expand on my comment above about Zach Lavine to see what people think. Maybe I'm squinting too hard to see what I want to see but here are some points that I think could point him in the direction of the Celtics:

1. A month ago Chicago was playing well and looked like a pretty good long term fit for Zach, especially because they can pay him the most. But they have lost 10 of their last 13 and could find themselves in a play-in game if they don't turn it around. Is this enough to have Zach looking to get out?

2. LaVine played with Tatum in the Olympics and Zach commented about all of the tampering that was going on between players. He didn't mention Tatum specifically of course.

3. Tatum and LaVine both train with Drew Hanlen and play together in Hanlen's summer runs.

4. Smart and LaVine played together on the USA Select team a few years ago and Smart said in an interview a couple months ago that LaVine was his favorite non-Celtic to watch. Could be a low key recruitment comment.

I know that is all a bunch of "not much" but if you're Lavine, at his age, and looking right now to create the next super team, what's an easier place to do it than Boston? For Boston to pull it off it would need to be a sign-and-trade, which would hard cap them and prevent them from doing much else this offseason, but would it be worth it?

I know it's a pipe dream, but I've been thinking about it for a couple months now. He doesn't have the best defensive reputation but with his size and athleticism he'd be a good fit with Boston's switchable approach, if he bought in.
would you do Brown+ for Zach LaVine?

otherwise, I doubt the Bulls are taking Horford + picks for him
 

DGreenwood

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would you do Brown+ for Zach LaVine?

otherwise, I doubt the Bulls are taking Horford + picks for him
No I wouldn't. But I didn't think it would take that much. It's a sign-and-trade which means LaVine has the leverage since he's a free agent and can walk away and the Bulls get nothing. Maybe I'm wrong though.
 

nighthob

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I'd like to expand on my comment above about Zach Lavine to see what people think. Maybe I'm squinting too hard to see what I want to see but here are some points that I think could point him in the direction of the Celtics:

1. A month ago Chicago was playing well and looked like a pretty good long term fit for Zach, especially because they can pay him the most. But they have lost 10 of their last 13 and could find themselves in a play-in game if they don't turn it around. Is this enough to have Zach looking to get out?

2. LaVine played with Tatum in the Olympics and Zach commented about all of the tampering that was going on between players. He didn't mention Tatum specifically of course.

3. Tatum and LaVine both train with Drew Hanlen and play together in Hanlen's summer runs.

4. Smart and LaVine played together on the USA Select team a few years ago and Smart said in an interview a couple months ago that LaVine was his favorite non-Celtic to watch. Could be a low key recruitment comment.

I know that is all a bunch of "not much" but if you're Lavine, at his age, and looking right now to create the next super team, what's an easier place to do it than Boston? For Boston to pull it off it would need to be a sign-and-trade, which would hard cap them and prevent them from doing much else this offseason, but would it be worth it?

I know it's a pipe dream, but I've been thinking about it for a couple months now. He doesn't have the best defensive reputation but with his size and athleticism he'd be a good fit with Boston's switchable approach, if he bought in.
The hard cap makes any sign & trade transaction virtually impossible.
 

DGreenwood

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The hard cap makes any sign & trade transaction virtually impossible.
We don't yet know what the tax apron will be, correct? The Celtics have about $153 million committed to 13 players for next year, which is right around where I thought the hard cap would be.
 

lexrageorge

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The hard cap makes any sign & trade transaction virtually impossible.
Celtics could do it by sending Horford + salary out, either as part of the S&T or in other transactions. If Philly can do it for Beal, the Celtics can certainly do it for LaVine. Teams don't have a lot of leverage to demand much in a S&T.
 

nighthob

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Celtics could do it by sending Horford + salary out, either as part of the S&T or in other transactions. If Philly can do it for Beal, the Celtics can certainly do it for LaVine. Teams don't have a lot of leverage to demand much in a S&T.
Beal has a player option which makes a trade easier to complete. LaVine does not.
 

Koufax

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I contend that Robert Williams is that star. People just don't recognize it yet.
 

nighthob

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Explain again to me the obsession with a "3rd star"? Is there a rule that you must have 3 to win?
At this point Tatum is so good that they just need 3&D guys. But people are still obsessed with having a new Big 3.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I contend that Robert Williams is that star. People just don't recognize it yet.
The inference is that the 3rd “star” is really a 3rd offensive option to create their own offense and not a 3rd best player. If Tatum and Jaylen can co-exist long term we wouldn’t need that guy except in a second unit role (like a Clarkson, Herro, prime Lou Will, etc).

My personal desire for Beal was never to be a 3rd with Tatum and Jaylen as you’ve then got all sorts of redundancy but as a guy to replace Jaylen so the latter could return a star who was a better fit with Tatum and Beal.
 

djbayko

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I contend that Robert Williams is that star. People just don't recognize it yet.
If he can remain healthy, he very well might be. He's very arguably DPOY this year. He won't win (partly because several Celtics are playing amazing defense), but maybe he should.
 

NomarsFool

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I contend that Robert Williams is that star. People just don't recognize it yet.
Rob Williams has certainly gone up a level this year for sure. I do think he would need to have a significant improvement on the offensive end to get into "star" category, though. If he could get into the 14-15 points a game level, people would start thinking about him in the Near All-Star or "All Star Caliber" type of conversation.
 

lovegtm

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Rob Williams has certainly gone up a level this year for sure. I do think he would need to have a significant improvement on the offensive end to get into "star" category, though. If he could get into the 14-15 points a game level, people would start thinking about him in the Near All-Star or "All Star Caliber" type of conversation.
He's already pretty close to "Gobert, but able to switch onto the perimeter, more dynamic as a roller, and a much, much better passer."

The fact he isn't talked about as an All-Star reflects more on the way those conversations lag performance than on TL.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I'd like to expand on my comment above about Zach Lavine to see what people think. Maybe I'm squinting too hard to see what I want to see but here are some points that I think could point him in the direction of the Celtics:

1. A month ago Chicago was playing well and looked like a pretty good long term fit for Zach, especially because they can pay him the most. But they have lost 10 of their last 13 and could find themselves in a play-in game if they don't turn it around. Is this enough to have Zach looking to get out?

2. LaVine played with Tatum in the Olympics and Zach commented about all of the tampering that was going on between players. He didn't mention Tatum specifically of course.

3. Tatum and LaVine both train with Drew Hanlen and play together in Hanlen's summer runs.

4. Smart and LaVine played together on the USA Select team a few years ago and Smart said in an interview a couple months ago that LaVine was his favorite non-Celtic to watch. Could be a low key recruitment comment.

I know that is all a bunch of "not much" but if you're Lavine, at his age, and looking right now to create the next super team, what's an easier place to do it than Boston? For Boston to pull it off it would need to be a sign-and-trade, which would hard cap them and prevent them from doing much else this offseason, but would it be worth it?

I know it's a pipe dream, but I've been thinking about it for a couple months now. He doesn't have the best defensive reputation but with his size and athleticism he'd be a good fit with Boston's switchable approach, if he bought in.
If someone like LaVine comes in, without Brown leaving, do you get a "there's only one ball" problem?
So if this is where we are discussing off-season possibilities, I will throw something crazy out that may make some people want to puke…

Lebron.

He’s rumored to want out of LA (what a shame!) to go to a contender. This hot streak certainly puts the Cs in that category.

They could trade Horford plus picks to get it done. A lot of other east contenders don’t have picks to get it done (Nets, Sixers, Bucks) and most contenders don’t have salary matches outside of the star players that Lebron would want to play alongside.

He seems to have great respect for JT, so perhaps would find it desirable to play with him in Boston.

Obviously it’s highly unlikely, but I think the Cs could put together a package this is as attractive as anyone else that would be on Lebron’s list of acceptable destinations.
Not as crazy as it sounds, but I think the odds are incredibly low. Also, for it to work, he would have to really be committed to working within the system. Which he could surely do but is very unlikely to want to do.

BTW, as regards the who "third star" discussion, one of the real advantages the Celtic have now is, in Rob and Marcus, two guys who do some things at that level, but clearly aren't scorers (which is what we typically think of in the discussion).
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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No interest at all in Lebron. The risk of what could happen to Tatum and, especially, Brown aren't worth the year or two of additional competitiveness.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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What is this risk?
Tatum is immediately removed as top dog, how does it affect his confidence? More importantly, does it sabotage his relationship with the front office?

We've seen Brown occasionally show a - for a lack of better words - mental weakness when it comes to strong personalities. Whether that's getting down on himself, checking out mentally, whatever. LeBron isn't known as a particularly fun teammate. The idea of a KG/Big Baby part II would concern me.

Thirdly, we finally feel absolved of the Kyrie stink. The team is playing a focused, cohesive brand of basketball. Ime has finally gotten buy in. There is NO doubt that adding Lebron changes that dynamic and chemistry more than just about anyone else in the league. Lebron doesn't buy into the team. The team buys into Lebron. That would scare me.
 

snowmanny

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I don’t disagree with any of that. And I would have pretty mixed feelings about LeBron on the Celtics, with the mix leaning towards the queasy.

But they probably would win a title.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Tatum is immediately removed as top dog, how does it affect his confidence?
This is not at all a crazy concern, but would 100% depend on LeBron's attitude. Does LeBron want to fill a role in Ime's system or keeping do what he has done for nearly two decades? Probably the latter, and that is why you are probably right not to want to see this. But if LeBron wanted it to work, it could.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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What is this risk?
LeBron doesn’t play defense pretty regularly. Like, stays in the offensive zone for entire possessions. It is fundamentally incompatible with how this team functions. He also brings back the culture of coasting in the regular season.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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There’s a 0.0000000% chance of LeBron being interested in playing in Boston.
Because?

I completely disagree. Winning a championship with four different franchises, including his hometown team and the two most storied organizations in the game would seem to really appeal to someone seemingly very interested in his legacy.
 

HomeRunBaker

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LeBron doesn’t play defense pretty regularly. Like, stays in the offensive zone for entire possessions. It is fundamentally incompatible with how this team functions. He also brings back the culture of coasting in the regular season.
It’s pretty lazy and/or crazy to think that LeBron would be motivated on a lottery team now compared to playing in a winning culture for Boston. It’s the ole “he’s toast” deception when a player is in a losing/dysfunctional situation.
 

benhogan

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Put Bron on this team, and if healthy, these guys would sweep everyone in the playoffs (incl a healthy Ky/KD)

Bron is smart enough to give the JAYs plenty of credit while making sure the competition never gets closer than 10pts in a game

That being said I see the probability of the Lakers/Bron looking to help the Celtics win a ring as very low

If Bron demands to go anywhere I'd expect it to be the Nets, GSW or Miami way before Boston.
 

bankshot1

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LeBron on the Celts ring chasing would suck the fun out of watching this team's metamorphsis from early season crawly bug into a potentially monster killer play-off butterfly.

The narrative would flip 180.

Fuck that.
 

benhogan

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Cleveland. He would get the adulation he seeks, and this Cleveland squad + Lebron would be a title favorite, albeit not an overwhelming one.
Yea the Cavs and even Philly would be in play if he demands a trade... BUT expect the Lakers to get AD healthy, move RWB and then go searching for defense-first role players instead of the aged offense only ex-stars

The Celtics will be better next season, Bron + Cavs or anyone else shouldn't make the Celtics flinch one bit.
 

the moops

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Tatum is immediately removed as top dog, how does it affect his confidence? More importantly, does it sabotage his relationship with the front office?

We've seen Brown occasionally show a - for a lack of better words - mental weakness when it comes to strong personalities. Whether that's getting down on himself, checking out mentally, whatever. LeBron isn't known as a particularly fun teammate. The idea of a KG/Big Baby part II would concern me.

Thirdly, we finally feel absolved of the Kyrie stink. The team is playing a focused, cohesive brand of basketball. Ime has finally gotten buy in. There is NO doubt that adding Lebron changes that dynamic and chemistry more than just about anyone else in the league. Lebron doesn't buy into the team. The team buys into Lebron. That would scare me.
If Tatum is going to pout because he has to defer to Lebron at times, then I think we all should question his confidence.

Lebron may not be known as a fun teammate, but who the hell cares. He has consistently gotten mediocre players to play way above themselves. He has the utmost respect of young players like Tatum and Brown and my guess is they would jump at the chance to play with him.
 

Jimbodandy

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around the way
If Tatum is going to pout because he has to defer to Lebron at times, then I think we all should question his confidence.

Lebron may not be known as a fun teammate, but who the hell cares. He has consistently gotten mediocre players to play way above themselves. He has the utmost respect of young players like Tatum and Brown and my guess is they would jump at the chance to play with him.
Yeah there's no reason to believe that anyone on this team would have a problem with having Lebron around for a year or two.

Dipshit fans, that's another story.