Celtic off-court discussion

benhogan

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Given that the Celtics just signed Smart to a lucrative extension, and Schroder is here on a 1-and-done deal, I'm highly skeptical of Karalis' speculation.
JK was saying it was an "ego" thing. Marcus has felt like he has been a good soldier watching Rondo, Nelson, IT, Kyrie, Kemba play PG ahead of him. Maybe he (or his agent) see the writing on the wall. DS is a better offensive PG

Also, the money/contract is irrelevant, from Marcus' perspective, since he felt and has stated that he signed for a discount for the second time. MS certainly doesn't see it as a "lucrative extension".

He probably sees it as a tradeable contract
 

lexrageorge

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JK was saying it was an "ego" thing. Marcus has felt like he has been a good soldier watching Rondo, Nelson, IT, Kyrie, Kemba play PG ahead of him. Maybe he (or his agent) see the writing on the wall. DS is a better offensive PG

Also, the money/contract is irrelevant, from Marcus' perspective, since he felt and has stated that he signed for a discount for the second time. MS certainly doesn't see it as a "lucrative extension".

He probably sees it as a tradeable contract
That's a Marcus problem. Taking a "hometown discount" was his decision (assuming it was a discount; not sure his market value is that much higher than what he's being paid), and did not suddenly grant him veto rights over the roster.
 

benhogan

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That's a Marcus problem. Taking a "hometown discount" was his decision (assuming it was a discount; not sure his market value is that much higher than what he's being paid), and did not suddenly grant him veto rights over the roster.
That's basically what JK is deducing.
since Karlis noted numerous times that Smart "seemed OFF/somethings not right with Marcus" from Day 1

DS has been the PG during crunch time every game now. Marcus is back to being the secondary ballhandler. I think it's silly if Marcus feels that way

BUT it's obvious that Schroder is the better PG for this roster.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think Marcus' negotiations were weird because of the CBA, and maybe left him feeling like he took a discount.

The Celtics offered him an extension that was the most they could offer under the CBA but well under a max free agent offer. There wasn't much for Marcus to negotiate - maybe he could have asked for a shorter deal, an opt out year, etc, but if he took a shorter deal that would have cut the AAV. So it was mostly a take it or leave it offer that he took.

I personally think it was a fair offer that is roughly in line with his marlet value, but he obviously does not think so. But neither did he have the courage of his convictions to play out his final year and test free agency. But sometimes it is good for a player to go out and test free agency because they have less to complain about after they see what is out there.

I don't really think Marcus is in a position to be disgruntled about his contract, but that doesn't mean he isn't.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Do we actually know that Smart is unhappy that he signed the deal or are we down the rabbit hole off the back of Karalis speculation? Karalis and all the Smart watchers here seem to be the only one following this as a culprit for Smart's slow start offensively.

There could be an issue with the contract, Smart might be dealing with a personal issue that is entirely unrelated to hoops or it could simply be the variance that comes with the start of the season.

Do we really believe Karalis is close enough to Marcus or his people to know this information?
 

tbb345

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Do we actually know that Smart is unhappy that he signed the deal or are we down the rabbit hole off the back of Karalis speculation? Karalis and all the Smart watchers here seem to be the only one following this as a culprit for Smart's slow start offensively.

There could be an issue with the contract, Smart might be dealing with a personal issue that is entirely unrelated to hoops or it could simply be the variance that comes with the start of the season.

Do we really believe Karalis is close enough to Marcus or his people to know this information?
Karalis may have just heard or read Marcus say it himself…
 

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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Karalis may have just heard or read Marcus say it himself…
That does not say that Smart is unhappy with the contract. It explains his reasoning for signing it.

Beyond that we are deep in serious discussion about something that appears to be total conjecture from someone who may not be privy to such information. That's totally fine but people are referring to this like its factual. It is not.
 

RedOctober3829

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ESPN with a pretty scathing article on the Celtics. I pulled some of the quotes. A lot of criticism of Tatum/Brown’s selfish play and how the team’s long term future is murky at best.

“I can't believe this whole era for them hasn't really worked," one league executive said. "They're stuck in neutral -- and maybe going backwards."
In the span of three years, the franchise underwent a steep and steady talent drain:

  • Irving, Horford and Morris left via free agency.
  • The picks from the Kings and Grizzlies turned into the 14th selection in consecutive seasons, netting Boston a pair of reserve swingmen in Romeo Langford and Aaron Nesmith.
  • Rozier was sent to the Charlotte Hornets in the sign-and-trade deal to land Kemba Walker, who was subsequently sent to the Oklahoma City Thunder along with a first-round pick for Horford.
  • The trade exception created when Hayward left became two months of Evan Fournier and then Josh Richardson.
  • Coach Brad Stevens left the sidelines to replace Danny Ainge as president of basketball operations.
The result? Boston now is short both on high-end talent and high-end assets to build around its young stars.

"Ultimately, you can't keep losing -- albeit flawed -- All-Star talent like Kyrie, Gordon, Kemba, Horford," an Eastern Conference scout said. "That adds up."
Jaylen and Jayson aren't making anyone better," a Western Conference scout said. "I put that on them.
"They've looked like [players that] legitimately don't enjoy each other's success, and it's been like that for years," an Eastern Conference executive said. "The fact it's still rearing its head is not surprising in that regard."

Meanwhile, Smart's critique of Tatum and Brown wasn't without merit. From the moment training camp began in late September, the Celtics have preached the importance of the duo as playmakers. So far, it hasn't happened.

Their assist numbers have dropped since last season -- from 4.3 to 3.5 for Tatum and from 3.4 to 2.5 for Brown. Both players also have seen their potential assists drop, per Second Spectrum's player tracking data, with Brown dropping from 5.4 to 4.7 and Tatum going from 8.1 to 7.6 per game. And while Brown has spent half the season sidelined with injuries, Tatum's play has drawn scrutiny from opposing teams.

"I don't think he cares about winning now, and if he does, it is on his terms. He doesn't want to score 15 and win. He wants to score 39 and win."
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32701015/the-ever-tinkering-boston-celtics-rocky-road-back-nba-finals-contention
 

Imbricus

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Interesting, though I think a bit harsh. I'm the first to agree that Brown and Tatum need to become playmakers. And, of the two, I think Tatum has a better chance of hitting the "playmaker" ceiling.

But I watched plenty of games last year, and this year, and Tatum has been more of a playmaker already. There are increasingly times when he passes out of a jam, with three defenders converging on him, when last year he wouldn't have. This is progress. He's still young.
 

4 6 3 DP

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Kind of a nothing article, everything has been out there. And screw the assistant coach saying Tatum would rather score 39 and lose. How the hell does he know what's in Tatum's head?

He could have just tweeted "They need a third star", and it would have been a more accurate posting and better use of everyone's time.
 

Eddie Jurak

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There are some not-crazy criticism in there.

BUT.

You cannot ding them for letting Horford go via free agency without accounting for the fact that he is here now. Also, are we really pointing to the departure of Morris as a reason to be down on this team.

This feels like someone using the slow start as an opportunity to tee off on the Celtics, but being a little slow on the draw so that the Celtics seem to have turned it around before the hatchet job.

In retrospect, there have been plenty of mistakes made since the failure of the Irving/Hayward plan.

Rozier/Smart could have been a version of the Schoder/Smart backcourt that seems to work pretty well. Rozier is better than DS in some ways, worse in others, but it could have worked. So, maybe, in hindsight, when Kyrie leaves you re-sign Horford and keep Rozier.

I think it is way to soon to let loose on Tatum and Brown. That reads like someone with an axe to grind.
 

Jimbodandy

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Article definitely written when the team was 2-5. Typical ESPN trash.
Yeah "ESPN says" is more or less equivalent to "I just heard on Felger and Mazz". If this piece said that the Celtics were poised to take over the world with new coach and new attitude, etc., I'd think that it was junk too.

Don't get me wrong, moving backwards sucks. But "and Morris" addition to the "leaving in free agency" speaks to the garbage nature of the piece. Multiple ground axes in here. MaMo was a garbage heap sign to the Knicks, the three-years-ago Knicks.
 

CreightonGubanich

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Yeah, what a strange article. It reads like an absolute hatchet job on a team that got off to a horrible start. But you can't just yada-yada the fact that they're now winning, with two young All-Stars about to hit their prime who are signed long term, while putting together what looks like it might be one of the best defenses in the NBA. Like, they're now doing the things they were (fairly) getting killed for not doing. The article lays a lot of blame on the GM suite of this team, and there's probably some blame to send Danny's way, but man, most franchises would kill to be in this position.
 

joe dokes

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They criticize the Celtics for *getting rid of* Irving and Walker but not for acquiring them in the first place? That's an article written by someone (or sourced by someone) who wants to ingratiate themself with players.
 

Devizier

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Well, that’s one way to try to trade Ben Simmons.
Bontemps is a local guy, according to this. He's been covering the Atlantic Division for a while. Morey is quite possibly a source. Probably some former scouts and coaches, too.

The content doesn't really matter. You could write something like this, much of it true, about pretty much every team in professional sports. It depends on the people you talk to, and the sources are what's interesting here.
 

Cellar-Door

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They criticize the Celtics for *getting rid of* Irving and Walker but not for acquiring them in the first place? That's an article written by someone (or sourced by someone) who wants to ingratiate themself with players.
No, it's a valid concern... they lost value without replacing it... they turned assets/cap space into Horford/Irving/Hayward. There were a bunch of stops along the way, but the talent from those assets has been a steady decline.

They went from 3 All-Stars to a much older Al, Josh RIchardson and nothing. That's a very valid criticism. They traded for Kyrie... great. Except that turned into unproductive years then Kemba, who turned into unproductive years then old Al. Al walked for nothing, Hayward got turned into Fournier (at a pick cost) then Richardson.

That was a big criticism of Danny and a reason he's gone, he had Brown/Tatum and a ton of high value assets. He left with Brown/Tatum and very few assets.
 

benhogan

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Well, that’s one way to try to trade Ben Simmons.
That's my initial reaction, Philly must be in full panic mode knowing that De-Aaron Fox is the best offer they can muster for Ben Simmons.

It's a big-time hit piece when you call out one of the NBA's young, ascending stars by saying "He doesn't want to score 15 and win. He wants to score 39 and win.", especially since Tatum's defense has been evolving this season. Not shocking that an opposing EC Asst Coach would plant that.

It's fair if anyone wants to kill the Celtics/Danny for not trading Kyrie Irving after seeing how they fared without Kyrie in the playoffs, and Ky's want to pair up with Durant (sounds like the entire NBA community knew, backed up by video evidence at the AS game). Then doubling down on Kemba. The criticism is deserved and the reason Danny needed to step aside.

BUT I like what PBS has done so far and thought before the season started that Boston, Chicago, and Atlanta had the best offseasons.

For all my criticism of Ime's 2BIGZ starting lineup, his new voice was desperately needed. Plus he has quickly changed/adapted when playing silly rotations/players (smurf/Jabari). He needed to experiment.

Cleaning up the Kyrie & Kemba debacles has certainly been painful, but we still haven't hit the JAYs peak. PBS will need the courage, if this team isn't in the top 4 in EC, to move Schroder by the trade deadline. Then Brad will need to combine Celtic assets to get that 3rd cusp All-Star this summer and fill with experienced vet/ring chasers. Tatum coming around after a slow start is the most important development to winning games. Add in a team interested in defending and Brown getting healthy as the other 2 things to continue to watch.

The Nets game tonight will be an early litmus test to see if this team is turning things around or 8-3 was merely scheduled wins.
 
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Petagine in a Bottle

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The article is basically a summary of all the criticism the org has gotten in this board over the past few years, none of this is new.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah much of this criticism is warranted and is, in fact, much of what has been posted here. That's incontrovertible.

However, there's a bunch of poor information and unnecessary jabs that turn the article from a captain obvious piece to a disposable one.

Let me reiterate--there's a line lamenting the departure of MaMo. Seriously. Why isn't there a note on how CBS never figured out how to effectively use David Lee?
 

benhogan

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The article is basically a summary of all the criticism the org has gotten in this board over the past few years, none of this is new.
Agree, most was a rehash from last season's postscript

Tatum POINTZ hound/doesn't care about winning was a new, unwelcomed twist.

I'd like to see, after a Nets win tonight, for IME to aggressively go after ESPN/Bontemps/Asst Coach in the post-game presser. It's one thing to question a player's bad shooting, but this questions Tatum's character. IME has to protect Tatum from media hatchet jobs and post-game pressers is the forum for that crap

Jim Boeheim infamously went after the media/opposing asst coach for calling Gerry McNamara "the most overrated player in the Big East". Jimmy got a lot of mileage out of that rant over the years

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSXFbPElnsw
 

RorschachsMask

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Tatum seemed pretty happy after the Magic and Heat wins, where he scored 14/10.

There was absolutely real things in there that people have worried about, but Bontemps is trash.
 

lexrageorge

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No, it's a valid concern... they lost value without replacing it... they turned assets/cap space into Horford/Irving/Hayward. There were a bunch of stops along the way, but the talent from those assets has been a steady decline.

They went from 3 All-Stars to a much older Al, Josh RIchardson and nothing. That's a very valid criticism. They traded for Kyrie... great. Except that turned into unproductive years then Kemba, who turned into unproductive years then old Al. Al walked for nothing, Hayward got turned into Fournier (at a pick cost) then Richardson.

That was a big criticism of Danny and a reason he's gone, he had Brown/Tatum and a ton of high value assets. He left with Brown/Tatum and very few assets.
The above is a fair criticism of Danny's reign. However, the author loses a shit ton of credibility when he mentions Markus Morris, who was truly nothing more than a fungible talent here, and has been since he left, his defenders' bizarro claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

It's a big-time hit piece when you call out one of the NBA's young, ascending stars by saying "He doesn't want to score 15 and win. He wants to score 39 and win.", especially since Tatum's defense has been evolving this season. Not shocking that an opposing EC Asst Coach would plant that.
Tatum POINTZ hound/doesn't care about winning was a new, unwelcomed twist.

I'd like to see, after a Nets win tonight, for IME to aggressively go after ESPN/Bontemps/Asst Coach in the post-game presser. It's one thing to question a player's bad shooting, but this questions Tatum's character. IME has to protect Tatum from media hatchet jobs and post-game pressers is the forum for that crap
The good news is that nearly every young NBA star has heard the same when their team doesn't win out of the gate. The same criticism was directed at Paul Pierce time and time again by the national mediots until KG came along. In fact, all of the Big 3 of that era heard the same earlier in their careers.
 

slamminsammya

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Maybe it isn't great journalism but I do get the sense sometimes that Tatum cares a lot about his own numbers. Even more than the average NBA star.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Article was more than fair and everything in the article has been hashed out here.

We were in a far better position a couple years back.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Maybe it isn't great journalism but I do get the sense sometimes that Tatum cares a lot about his own numbers. Even more than the average NBA star.
All future stars care about numbers. That’s how they get their elite status. Once they are secure in their status is when the goal of championships begin to matter regardless of the words that come out of their mouth about “winning.”
 

benhogan

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Every NBA star cares about their own numbers.
Agreed and the stars should. Tatum efficiently scoring and the Celtics winning are not mutually exclusive

the quote IMPLIES that Tatum values POINTZ > WINNING or why else put it in there?

Do we have to state Tatum's accomplishments so far? I'm pretty sure he's secure with his NBA standing and has over a $150MM owed to him, All-Star games, Olympic Gold medal, National Ad campaigns, etc to reassure that status. He'd have to be a basket case to not recognize that.
 

RorschachsMask

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Agreed and the stars should. Tatum efficiently scoring and the Celtics winning are not mutually exclusive

the quote IMPLIES that Tatum values POINTZ > WINNING or why else put it in there?

Do we have to state Tatum's accomplishments so far? I'm pretty sure he's secure with his NBA standing and has over a $150MM owed to him, All-Star games, Olympic Gold medal, National Ad campaigns, etc to reassure that status. He'd have to be a basket case to not recognize that.
There’s also the fact of the matter, Tatum has to score a lot of points for us to win, and it’s been the case for three seasons. Whether due to injury, roster issues, etc.

Of course they can win some games with him not scoring much, but they have been pretty few and far between over the last few years. Obviously he cares about his own stats, but we’ve also seen he clearly cares about winning.
 

Cesar Crespo

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There’s also the fact of the matter, Tatum has to score a lot of points for us to win, and it’s been the case for three seasons. Whether due to injury, roster issues, etc.

Of course they can win some games with him not scoring much, but they have been pretty few and far between over the last few years. Obviously he cares about his own stats, but we’ve also seen he clearly cares about winning.
That's the point of 90% of the article. They failed to build around the Jays and have let too much talent walk. Now it all falls on Tatum to score 30+.

The article is worded a bit harsh but I think that's because a lot of people have been overstating the C's position for a few years. It's not 2018 anymore. The team burned through a lot of assets without much to show for it and the Jays are no longer the best duo under 25.

The C's have also won 3 in a row and are 8-3 in their last 11. The timing of the article is definitely odd. Personally, I think the C's are in the midst of a good stretch and are a 41-46 win team but we shall see.
 

RorschachsMask

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That's the point of 90% of the article. They failed to build around the Jays and have let too much talent walk. Now it all falls on Tatum to score 30+.

The article is worded a bit harsh but I think that's because a lot of people have been overstating the C's position for a few years. It's not 2018 anymore. The team burned through a lot of assets without much to show for it and the Jays are no longer the best duo under 25.

The C's have also won 3 in a row and are 8-3 in their last 11. The timing of the article is definitely odd. Personally, I think the C's are in the midst of a good stretch and are a 41-46 win team but we shall see.
I’d lean closer to 48ish, but we really won’t know until this tough stretch of 18 games are done. A lot depends on health too, which is shaky.

I fully agree about the assets, Danny had a really tough time pivoting after AD made it clear he won’t come here.
 

mcpickl

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It's fair if anyone wants to kill the Celtics/Danny for not trading Kyrie Irving after seeing how they fared without Kyrie in the playoffs, and Ky's want to pair up with Durant (sounds like the entire NBA community knew, backed up by video evidence at the AS game). Then doubling down on Kemba. The criticism is deserved and the reason Danny needed to step aside.
I don't even think this is fair.

The Celtics were rolling going into the trade deadline that season. They had won 10 of 11, the only loss being to the Durant led Warriors by 4 points.

Trading Kyrie at that point would've been nuts in my opinion. I think that team Ainge built in the two Kyrie years were about as loaded a team can be without hitting on a top ten player. I would've rode that out myself for sure.

And even if Ainge wanted to trade Kyrie at that point, if the entire NBA community knew he was teaming up with Durant that offseason, who was going to give the Celtics anything significant to rent Kyrie?

I never understand the hand wringing over guys walking away in free agency. If your team has a fighting chance to compete with a guy in the last year of his deal, go compete rather than trying to recoup some late firsts and/or prospects from some other team that's trying to compete.

If your team stinks, absolutely try to get anything you can for your upcoming FA. If you're a playoff team that can at least dream on making a run, you hang on and c'est la vie if it doesn't work out and the guy walks.
 

snowmanny

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The Brown/Tatum criticism stuff is kind of annoying. They are great players who work hard. It all has a bit of a Paul Pierce vibe, where he was seen by some as somehow a problem. They aren’t the problems, they are important pieces to banner 18 and like Pierce will be gods in Boston when they win it all. It’s one thing to say they could be better; it’s another to act as if they are somehow in the way. What a joke.

But I’m sure the national media and every other team is hoping the C’s just blow it up. There are probably 8 or more teams that would be conference champion favorites if either of these guys fell in their laps.
 

Cesar Crespo

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There are probably 8 or more teams that would be conference champion favorites if either of these guys fell in their laps.
And? Take away the best player on any NBA and there are probably 8 or more teams that would be conference champion favorites if that player landed in their lap. Give the C's any of Jerami Grant, Brandon Ingram (Zion), Fox or Murray and the C's are conference champion favorites. Or at least a real l threat to win a title.

It's interesting because they aren't the problem just like PP wasn't the problem. But PP needed KG and Ray Allen to no longer be the problem.

I think it's a fair question to ask who the Jays need. Maybe Tatum does emerge as a top 5 type or Brown brings up the age old debate of who is better but barring those 2 things, this team looks like it needs another impact player.

The good thing is, luck plays a factor in the NBA. Maybe the C's get lucky with Juhann or a player who isn't even on the team yet. Or RL/AN/GW/PP evolve into more.

I was hoping on AN and RL, but I thought PP established himself last year. His early play is really disappointing. Hopefully it's just the mask and some noise and not the 86 or whatever point game and using him in roles he wasn't going to play in the regular season.
 

mcpickl

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And? Take away the best player on any NBA and there are probably 8 or more teams that would be conference champion favorites if that player landed in their lap. Give the C's any of Jerami Grant, Brandon Ingram (Zion), Fox or Murray and the C's are conference champion favorites. Or at least a real l threat to win a title.

It's interesting because they aren't the problem just like PP wasn't the problem. But PP needed KG and Ray Allen to no longer be the problem.

I think it's a fair question to ask who the Jays need. Maybe Tatum does emerge as a top 5 type or Brown brings up the age old debate of who is better but barring those 2 things, this team looks like it needs another impact player.

The good thing is, luck plays a factor in the NBA. Maybe the C's get lucky with Juhann or a player who isn't even on the team yet. Or RL/AN/GW/PP evolve into more.

I was hoping on AN and RL, but I thought PP established himself last year. His early play is really disappointing. Hopefully it's just the mask and some noise and not the 86 or whatever point game and using him in roles he wasn't going to play in the regular season.
This is the correct answer. The Celtics can make changes on the fringes to move from longshot title contender, to slightly less of a longshot contender, but you need a top 10 player to have any decent chance of winning a title, and that guy is usually a lot closer to 1 than 10.

The last time a team won a title without a player that made first or second team all-NBA was the 95 Rockets, when Hakeems 27.8-10.8-3.5-3.4-1.8 was only good enough for third team.

If Tatum, or much less likely Brown, doesn't make a leap into a clear top ten player the odds of the Celtics winning a title is remote.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If Tatum and/or Brown don't continue to improve, the C's are very unlikely to win a title with this team.

That said, this is the first roster in recent memory that has human beings with actual on-the-job experience that is close to or exactly what their roles require. One of the biggest problems of the past few years was that even when the stars made the right play by finding an open player, the team struggled to dependably capitalize on it. To me, a natural response to coworkers not carrying the load is to try to do more yourself and while I have no proof of this, I suspect that some of the team's struggles can be chalked up to Tatum and Brown just saying "eff it" instead of watching another good possession get wasted.

Now, if we go through a full season after the coaching staff has changed, the personnel around them is upgraded and we are getting the same results it won't be a total shock if Stevens decides to try to do a more substantial reshaping of the roster.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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No, it's a valid concern... they lost value without replacing it... they turned assets/cap space into Horford/Irving/Hayward. There were a bunch of stops along the way, but the talent from those assets has been a steady decline.

They went from 3 All-Stars to a much older Al, Josh RIchardson and nothing. That's a very valid criticism. They traded for Kyrie... great. Except that turned into unproductive years then Kemba, who turned into unproductive years then old Al. Al walked for nothing, Hayward got turned into Fournier (at a pick cost) then Richardson.

That was a big criticism of Danny and a reason he's gone, he had Brown/Tatum and a ton of high value assets. He left with Brown/Tatum and very few assets.
You know better than this. They didn't lose value without replacing it. They had max contracts guys walk out the door and replaced with other max contract guys. They went from three-ish All-Stars to 2 All-Stars.

Haybird and Irving were replaced by All-Stars JT and JB. Rookie years JB and JT were replaced by GW, RL, and AN. Frankly, everything the Cs have done personnel-wise with the exception of having Kyrie fall into their laps was more or less pre-ordained by the salary cap once it became clear that JB was a max or near-max player and JT was a max player. Yeah there was some tinkering they could have done but at the end of the day, we all knew the Cs were going to go as far as JB/JT would lead them.

We'll all wonder what could have been in 2017-18. I remember the super excited posts about pre-season games where the Cs looked like they could win 70 games. It sucks that it didn't work out but if GH hadn't gone up for that alley-oop, I doubt anyone would have been complaining about picking up Kyrie.
 

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And even if Ainge wanted to trade Kyrie at that point, if the entire NBA community knew he was teaming up with Durant that offseason, who was going to give the Celtics anything significant to rent Kyrie?
Yeah, this feels like a narrative created with the benefit of hindsight. The Celtics luck was horrific with Hayward breaking his ankle and then spraining his ankle in the bubble playoffs. If those things don't happen, things look different. Results matter, of course, but the underlying logic and intentions of the moves the Celtics have to come into the conversation as well.

I think Ainge was a far better GM than folks are giving him credit for, even toward the end, and it just feels like people want someone to blame for things going wrong in ways that were often beyond his control. The Kyrie/Hayward/Horford team failed, due to injury and mental illness. The Celtics then pivoted to building around Brown and Tatum, and there have been growing pains along the way. Ainge's major mistake since they pivoted was signing Kemba.

The Celtics clearest pathway to contention is Tatum emerging as a clear top 5 player, which is not impossible given how talented he is. The moves they've made seem to indicate to me that they believe this is a nontrivial possibility. They need things to go right for them in order to truly contend, this is true for the majority of teams in the NBA, even the contenders that are a tier above them. I don't really believe they're significantly worse off than they were several years ago, but we'll see.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
5,976
The fact that they used to have Kyrie and Heyward and Kemba is irrelevant. They have one star that is 6 years younger than Paul George and another that is 7 years younger than Kawhi Leonard. The real window isn't now.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
17,823
The fact that they used to have Kyrie and Heyward and Kemba is irrelevant. They have one star that is 6 years younger than Paul George and another that is 7 years younger than Kawhi Leonard. The real window isn't now.
Then when?
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
17,823
In 4 years when both are reaching their peak? I'm not saying they should punt until then. But Jordan and Isiah were both 27 when they won their first title. Tatum is 23. Patience.
Yeah, but JT and JB aren't Jordan or Isiah. If you believe they'll get there, that's fine. I think they'll have to add a 3rd star.

Plus, I don't think their window is closing any time soon. Just that it's open.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
12,853
Santa Monica
Yeah, this feels like a narrative created with the benefit of hindsight. The Celtics luck was horrific with Hayward breaking his ankle and then spraining his ankle in the bubble playoffs. If those things don't happen, things look different. Results matter, of course, but the underlying logic and intentions of the moves the Celtics have to come into the conversation as well.

I think Ainge was a far better GM than folks are giving him credit for, even toward the end, and it just feels like people want someone to blame for things going wrong in ways that were often beyond his control. The Kyrie/Hayward/Horford team failed, due to injury and mental illness. The Celtics then pivoted to building around Brown and Tatum, and there have been growing pains along the way. Ainge's major mistake since they pivoted was signing Kemba.

The Celtics clearest pathway to contention is Tatum emerging as a clear top 5 player, which is not impossible given how talented he is. The moves they've made seem to indicate to me that they believe this is a nontrivial possibility. They need things to go right for them in order to truly contend, this is true for the majority of teams in the NBA, even the contenders that are a tier above them. I don't really believe they're significantly worse off than they were several years ago, but we'll see.
This is fair.

Failing to move Kyrie might be 20/20 hindsight-ish

Maybe Danny's plan was win big that season and Kyrie sticks
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
5,976
Yeah, but JT and JB aren't Jordan or Isiah. If you believe they'll get there, that's fine. I think they'll have to add a 3rd star.

Plus, I don't think their window is closing any time soon. Just that it's open.
I agree. But there's plenty of time. I feel like some people (not you) will be ready to say "blow it up" if they next two years result in 1st or 2nd round exits. But they will still be young at that point. Absolutely, add a 3rd piece if the right deal is there. But this isn't the Lakers where you have to go all in this year and trade for Russell Westbrook.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
17,823
I agree. But there's plenty of time. I feel like some people (not you) will be ready to say "blow it up" if they next two years result in 1st or 2nd round exits. But they will still be young at that point. Absolutely, add a 3rd piece if the right deal is there. But this isn't the Lakers where you have to go all in this year and trade for Russell Westbrook.
Heh, I'd at least listen to offers on Jaylen Brown. I doubt there are many deals I'd pull the trigger on though. It's also probably something that would happen in the offseason.

A much better plan is adding a 3rd Musketeer to the Jays at pretty much any cost.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
2,303
I don’t think they will keep Tatum and Brown together for four more years, though, if they aren’t seriously contending. How often do teams in the salary cap era keep duos together for 7-8 years without significant winning, and how often does it pay off in year 7-8? And I am pretty sure that one or the other would want out in the interim. It’s a nice idea but doesn’t seem realistic.