Celtic off-court discussion

DJnVa

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(Thinking *maybe* this should be separate from game analysis and the Udoka thread.)

This doesn't sound good.




Horford: "“(Effort is) something that we shouldn't even have to address,” he said, his voice barely creeping above the level where you have to tilt your head and lean forward to hear him. “The minutes that we get out there, guys need to make the most out of it. And that's something that we have to do. We should never question effort."

Schroeder: “Effort is one point we don’t have to teach somebody,” Dennis Schroder said. “We got that; we did that through preseason. We got that. We just got to focus and bring it 48 minutes and not just 36, not 30 minutes. We’ve just got to bring it.”

Udoka: "“For whatever reason, we were lacking in intensity and focus this morning,” he said. “I told them that you’re going to get your ass kicked tonight if you come with that focus in the game, and for three quarters we played the same way. Waited to get down 15 and started to play with the effort that we played in the other four games. It’s disappointing. ... You can’t just pick and choose and think you’re going to beat people.”

I don't subscribe to BSJ and article cuts off right when Karalis is about to make a statement about the team.
 

RedOctober3829

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I am getting a bad feeling from Tatum and Brown. They are vastly talented we all know that. But, are they "winning players"? Do they want to put the effort in every night and on both ends of the floor consistently? Judging by the commentary above, that has to be coming into question. Brad Stevens may not have held them accountable the way Udoka seemingly is trying to do. It sounds like the team were going through the motions at shootaround and Udoka/Horford/Schroder called the team out. Tatum and Brown should be the leaders on this team.

The comments from the home opener from Tatum about not matching Toronto's intensity and now this. I don't like it one bit. They better get their act together.
 

Gash Prex

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The Celtic's players allegedly wanted a new voice - and I don't think the plan was for sunshine and rainbows when things don't go well. Hearing it from Brad clearly wasn't working so now its time for Ime to let them know its not good enough.

If the current team can't handle some simple truths from a new voice they allegedly respect then I think the Celtics need to know that now and plan accordingly.
 

luckiestman

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I added another link with more details.

I was talking about the tweets not you posting them. I appreciate your post.

I thought this was new shoot around info but that tweet is from last night. We were discussing this stuff somewhere. Someone has a new column, Karalis? But he isn’t bringing info we haven’t seen (at least from the excerpt).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I am getting a bad feeling from Tatum and Brown. They are vastly talented we all know that. But, are they "winning players"? Do they want to put the effort in every night and on both ends of the floor consistently?
I find it hard to question whether they are "winning players" because they've won in the past but I wonder if they understand how to win consistently? Particularly now that the Eastern Conference is a lot better than it was when they went to the conference finals. The most disappointing part from my eyes is that the Jays don't seem to have consistent effort on the defensive end.

I posted this in the Ime thread but probably goes better here:

I keep coming back to something Hayward apparently told Stevens on his way out (from this Jared Weiss article): "This came in the wake of Gordon Hayward’s departure, after which sources said Hayward told Stevens he needed to establish a stronger voice with players if they were going to win." (Note that the article says that Stevens was tougher on Kemba after the article but I can't believe that Hayward was referring to Kemba).

Stevens described Ime as "warm but demanding." Already Ime has suspended Smart, benched JT for arguing at the refs, and now pointed out JB's inconsistency. I guess that's the demanding part. I'm sure the warm part is something we'll never know but hopefully Ime is able to push the correct buttons.
 

DJnVa

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I thought this was new shoot around info but that tweet is from last night. We were discussing this stuff somewhere. Someone has a new column, Karalis? But he isn’t bringing info we haven’t seen (at least from the excerpt).
I hadn't gone through all the threads, but it seems like this *might* be worth it's own thread. I wish it wasn't.
 

tbb345

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I am pro Ainge on the whole and thought he probably took too much shit on his way out from the media and fans…

However, putting Kyrie and Tristan Thompson in “leadership” roles seems like it’s having some pretty terrible long term effects. Hopefully the combo of Al and Ime can completely wash away the terrible habits of those two clowns
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Really, really don't love this smoke already after five games. I thought they'd come out gangbusters this year with a full offseason, more veterans, and a new coach but it didn't happen. It seem ridiculous to have to start this thread after five friggen games but unfortunately it's the reality of the situation.
 

RedOctober3829

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I find it hard to question whether they are "winning players" because they've won in the past but I wonder if they understand how to win consistently? Particularly now that the Eastern Conference is a lot better than it was when they went to the conference finals. The most disappointing part from my eyes is that the Jays don't seem to have consistent effort on the defensive end.

I posted this in the Ime thread but probably goes better here:

I keep coming back to something Hayward apparently told Stevens on his way out (from this Jared Weiss article): "This came in the wake of Gordon Hayward’s departure, after which sources said Hayward told Stevens he needed to establish a stronger voice with players if they were going to win." (Note that the article says that Stevens was tougher on Kemba after the article but I can't believe that Hayward was referring to Kemba).

Stevens described Ime as "warm but demanding." Already Ime has suspended Smart, benched JT for arguing at the refs, and now pointed out JB's inconsistency. I guess that's the demanding part. I'm sure the warm part is something we'll never know but hopefully Ime is able to push the correct buttons.
When I say "winning players" is the consistency part. They are talented enough that this team should get 45-50 wins easily. But talent only takes you so far. If they are having issues with effort this early in the season, that's a big big problem. Hopefully Udoka can get through to these guys. Like how can you come out in the home opener, get blown out by 30 plus, then say "well we didn't match their effort"? What the hell is that? They haven't nearly earned the right to think they can just turn it on and turn it off like they're some kind of juggernaut team. To me, they are still a fringe playoff team that has to prove to the rest of the league that they are anything more than that. I'm really down on these guys from what I've seen so far. If they wanted someone that was going to coach them hard and make them accountable, start acting like they want it that way instead of the other way.
 

Strike4

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The Celtic's players allegedly wanted a new voice - and I don't think the plan was for sunshine and rainbows when things don't go well. Hearing it from Brad clearly wasn't working so now its time for Ime to let them know its not good enough.

If the current team can't handle some simple truths from a new voice they allegedly respect then I think the Celtics need to know that now and plan accordingly.
Better to get on the problem now rather than wait 50 games.
 

DJnVa

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Really, really don't love this smoke already after five games. I thought they'd come out gangbusters this year with a full offseason, more veterans, and a new coach but it didn't happen. It seem ridiculous to have to start this thread after five friggen games but unfortunately it's the reality of the situation.
I was hoping some of the results so far were the result of instituting new schemes, and maybe they are. But this isn't a fun hiccup 2 weeks into season.
 

NickEsasky

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When I say "winning players" is the consistency part. They are talented enough that this team should get 45-50 wins easily. But talent only takes you so far. If they are having issues with effort this early in the season, that's a big big problem. Hopefully Udoka can get through to these guys. Like how can you come out in the home opener, get blown out by 30 plus, then say "well we didn't match their effort"? What the hell is that? They haven't nearly earned the right to think they can just turn it on and turn it off like they're some kind of juggernaut team. To me, they are still a fringe playoff team that has to prove to the rest of the league that they are anything more than that. I'm really down on these guys from what I've seen so far. If they wanted someone that was going to coach them hard and make them accountable, start acting like they want it that way instead of the other way.
This is where I am at. I think the Jays are both incredibly hard workers but I wonder to what end. Is the goal for them to get All NBA votes, max deals, and build their brands only, or do they want to do the little things that help win games as well? My concern is it's the former and not the latter. I worry in today's NBA there is less urgency about winning as you can always join a super team later on to get your ring.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I was hoping some of the results so far were the result of instituting new schemes, and maybe they are. But this isn't a fun hiccup 2 weeks into season.
I have a lot more patience with the offense than the defense. There is no reason that the defense should be as atrocious as it has been with this roster. We can't expect for it to be perfect right out of the gate, but I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for more than "completely abysmal".
 

reggiecleveland

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I am pro Ainge on the whole and thought he probably took too much shit on his way out from the media and fans…

However, putting Kyrie and Tristan Thompson in “leadership” roles seems like it’s having some pretty terrible long term effects. Hopefully the combo of Al and Ime can completely wash away the terrible habits of those two clowns
I really want to know what Thompson did that was such a formative negative change on Tatum, Brown. TT did his job and played hard. I know he was the whipping boy here. But how is he in any way like Kyrie?
 

joe dokes

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I was hoping some of the results so far were the result of instituting new schemes, and maybe they are. But this isn't a fun hiccup 2 weeks into season.
Maybe "calling players out" or "holding them accountable" or whatever you want to call Udoka's approach *is* a hiccup related to a new approach that just goes beyond schemes. IOW...if they were throwing passes into the stands while still adjusting to a new offense, we'd essentially just shrug. Maybe theyre still adjusting (or re-adjusting) on the attitudinal side.
 

nighthob

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I just hate the fact that I need to start the '22 Draft thread this early in the fucking season.
 

reggiecleveland

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This is where I am at. I think the Jays are both incredibly hard workers but I wonder to what end. Is the goal for them to get All NBA votes, max deals, and build their brands only, or do they want to do the little things that help win games as well? My concern is it's the former and not the latter. I worry in today's NBA there is less urgency about winning as you can always join a super team later on to get your ring.
It is not a today thing. I am an old guy, but the NBA has seen far worse eras for stats first guys. Before analytics guys on bad teams just jacked it up, even worse.

I said this elsewhere, but the bolded has two sides. Training hard and working hard in games. They are not incredibly hard workers in games.
 

shoelace

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I really want to know what Thompson did that was such a formative negative change on Tatum, Brown. TT did his job and played hard. I know he was the whipping boy here. But how is he in any way like Kyrie?
I believe there was some reporting last year that Thompson was basically promoting a "flip the switch" mentality in the locker room. I don't know if it's true, I remember Jaylen and Kemba pushing back on some reporting that Thompson was not well-liked in the locker room. He was a weirdly controversial figure, so I have no idea what was true and what was just blog boy speculation. I think some posters are just taking it as a fact that Thompson was a problem and that the young stars inherited the "Regular season doesn't matter" mentality from him. Which, I don't know, maybe it is true. But, I would hope that Tristan Thompson, and by extension Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum, understands that "flip the switch" plan works better when LeBron is on your team. Not when you're a couple of young dudes who have never won anything.

I have no idea, I'm willing to reserve judgment for a while longer, and give Ime the benefit of the doubt. But if we get to the end of next month and they're still playing like this, and there are stories about low effort and bad practices, I'll be concerned.
 

Red Averages

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Really, really don't love this smoke already after five games. I thought they'd come out gangbusters this year with a full offseason, more veterans, and a new coach but it didn't happen. It seem ridiculous to have to start this thread after five friggen games but unfortunately it's the reality of the situation.
Counterpoint: This is exactly what should be happening early in the year with a veteran team. Addressing it quickly.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I believe there was some reporting last year that Thompson was basically promoting a "flip the switch" mentality in the locker room. I don't know if it's true, I remember Jaylen and Kemba pushing back on some reporting that Thompson was not well-liked in the locker room. He was a weirdly controversial figure, so I have no idea what was true and what was just blog boy speculation. I think some posters are just taking it as a fact that Thompson was a problem and that the young stars inherited the "Regular season doesn't matter" mentality from him. Which, I don't know, maybe it is true. But, I would hope that Tristan Thompson, and by extension Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum, understands that "flip the switch" plan works better when LeBron is on your team. Not when you're a couple of young dudes who have never won anything.

I have no idea, I'm willing to reserve judgment for a while longer, and give Ime the benefit of the doubt. But if we get to the end of next month and they're still playing like this, and there are stories about low effort and bad practices, I'll be concerned.
This is the problem. The Jays have no accountability. If there is a problem with the Jays, it's somehow TT or Kyrie's fault and not the Jays. The Jays are young but they are not kids. They are adult men who should be accountable for their own actions. Maybe they just let the early success go to their heads and now they are entitled. Ultimately it falls on the Jays, not Kyrie, not TT, not BS, not Ime.
 

RedOctober3829

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This is the problem. The Jays have no accountability. If there is a problem with the Jays, it's somehow TT or Kyrie's fault and not the Jays. The Jays are young but they are not kids. They are adult men who should be accountable for their own actions. Maybe they just let the early success go to their heads and now they are entitled. Ultimately it falls on the Jays, not Kyrie, not TT, not BS, not Ime.
Their paychecks indicate that they are the first two guys that should be accountable for what happens with this team both good and bad. I agree 100% that it all falls on them whether they like it or not. They want the max deals and the hype? Then it comes with responsibilities.
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Leaving in a bit to the studio :)
Not for nothing, but Arnold always said that you're likely to have a horrendous practice every now and then, and his solution was to send everyone home early for the day with the caveat that they're all coming back tomorrow totally focused and ready to practice their collective asses off.
 

Van Everyman

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The Jays have no accountability. If there is a problem with the Jays, it's somehow TT or Kyrie's fault and not the Jays. The Jays are young but they are not kids. They are adult men who should be accountable for their own actions. Maybe they just let the early success go to their heads and now they are entitled.
All due respect, what is the evidence of any of this?
 

Cesar Crespo

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All due respect, what is the evidence of any of this?
What are you asking evidence for? That they have no accountability?

I'm just going by what the media says and what the fans say. You have a ton of posters on SoSH trying to blame BS, Kyrie, TT for the Jays behavior. People want to blame whatever shortcomings the Jays have on someone else and not them. The only person responsible for your behavior is you. They've also been around for awhile now. Brown is in his 6th year, Tatum his 5th. They may be young but they are also veterans. They should be setting an example, not needing an example set for them.
 

NickEsasky

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It is not a today thing. I am an old guy, but the NBA has seen far worse eras for stats first guys. Before analytics guys on bad teams just jacked it up, even worse.

I said this elsewhere, but the bolded has two sides. Training hard and working hard in games. They are not incredibly hard workers in games.
Yeah I probably wasn't clear. I agree with you. I think they are both very hard workers in training but in-game effort is inconsistent at best.
 

joe dokes

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Yeah I probably wasn't clear. I agree with you. I think they are both very hard workers in training but in-game effort is inconsistent at best.
Not just the Celtics' stars, but among the national games I occasionally watch, it seems that all-stars occasionally play regular games like they're all-star games.
 

Van Everyman

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What are you asking evidence for? That they have no accountability?

I'm just going by what the media says and what the fans say. You have a ton of posters on SoSH trying to blame BS, Kyrie, TT for the Jays behavior. People want to blame whatever shortcomings the Jays have on someone else and not them. The only person responsible for your behavior is you. They've also been around for awhile now. Brown is in his 6th year, Tatum his 5th. They may be young but they are also veterans. They should be setting an example, not needing an example set for them.
Sure ... but that assumes they need an example set for them. I'm just saying, it's not at all clear to me that they are the problem -- or who is the problem. Or that there *is* a problem.

Last year sucked, we can all agree on that. But we're five games in this year -- I'm inclined to let things play out a bit before getting really upset and pointing fingers.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Sure ... but that assumes they need an example set for them. I'm just saying, it's not at all clear to me that they are the problem -- or who is the problem. Or that there *is* a problem.

Last year sucked, we can all agree on that. But we're five games in this year -- I'm inclined to let things play out a bit before getting really upset and pointing fingers.
Someone said Kyrie and TT were bad influences on the Jays. I was responding to that. If there's a problem with the Jays, it's not because of Kyrie and TT. It's because of the Jays.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Counterpoint: This is exactly what should be happening early in the year with a veteran team. Addressing it quickly.
Yeah, I actually feel a little better now than I did earlier today in that at least now we know they are talking about it, there's visibility internally, and they are trying to change. I imagine Ime and Stevens knew this was going to happen at some point this year.

What we don't know is how the younger players will respond.
 

NickEsasky

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Not just the Celtics' stars, but among the national games I occasionally watch, it seems that all-stars occasionally play regular games like they're all-star games.
And that's fine if you're locked in on a top seed not fighting for your playoff life trying to avoid a play-in game. We heard all last year about a switch. Maybe super teams can have a switch but the Celtics aren't a super team, they need to earn everything they get.
 

shoelace

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This is the problem. The Jays have no accountability. If there is a problem with the Jays, it's somehow TT or Kyrie's fault and not the Jays. The Jays are young but they are not kids. They are adult men who should be accountable for their own actions. Maybe they just let the early success go to their heads and now they are entitled. Ultimately it falls on the Jays, not Kyrie, not TT, not BS, not Ime.
I'm just speculating about where that narrative originated from. I don't ever really buy into chemistry, officiating, or coaching explanations for losses (though sometimes those things do play a role), the vast majority of it comes down to talent and execution. I'm not really willing to panic after 5 games. Tatum is shooting like 15% from 3 in the games they've lost, Smart just cannot score on offense, I don't expect those things to continue. If they do, then this season is not going to go well, but that seems extremely unlikely to me.
 

Kliq

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I was hoping some of the results so far were the result of instituting new schemes, and maybe they are. But this isn't a fun hiccup 2 weeks into season.
The Celtics continuing to mirror Tottenham is a very unwelcome trend.
 

Gash Prex

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All due respect, what is the evidence of any of this?
I agree there is no hard "evidence" on this to date - but at some point when the same issues continue with the team and the only players still around are Tatum, Brown and Marcus - connecting the dots becomes obvious.

I'm not ready to take that position on Tatum, Brown and Marcus until we get through this season Ime - but we've gone through many other players/coaches (Kyrie, Walker, Hayward, BS etc...) and at some point the only people left to point a finger at will be Tatum, Brown and Marcus.
 

tbb345

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I really want to know what Thompson did that was such a formative negative change on Tatum, Brown. TT did his job and played hard. I know he was the whipping boy here. But how is he in any way like Kyrie?
In the article, Karalis mentioned that both Kyrie and TT were guys who preached that the regular season didn’t matter and that you could basically turn it on when the games mattered

I didn’t really care that much about TT either way but when you have multiple media members (Karalis And KOC aren’t professional shit stirrers like CHB and Felger) talking about how he was a bad locker room guy I tend to think there’s some fire there
 

radsoxfan

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In the article, Karalis mentioned that both Kyrie and TT were guys who preached that the regular season didn’t matter and that you could basically turn it on when the games mattered
This might be somewhat true when you have prime Lebron James on your team.

Otherwise, not trying in the regular season just means you stink and miss the playoffs.

Kyrie and TT might have forgotten who they were playing with.
 

Granite Sox

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In an article from the pre-season, Brown was quoted as saying he was happy the Celtics hired a POC as the new head coach and that he (Brown) felt a responsibility “not to let him fail”.

I think Brown can handle the criticism from Udoka, but needs to learn or be taught what good leadership and consistent effort looks like.

I don’t think Tatum can handle tough love; I don’t think he’s an alpha and never will be. He may be a top 10 talent, but he’s demonstrated repeatedly that he’s a whiny baby who thinks he’s arrived because everyone is blowing sunshine up his ass. It’s going to be a much more difficult challenge (imho) to improve his demeanor and earn the right to declare himself the leader of the team. I also hope I’m wrong.

Marcus is a classic wild card… I think he wants to do the right thing, but struggles emotionally and with his in-game decision-making too much.

I’m thrilled that Al is back; he sets a good example.

Schroeder has a reputation for being a bit of a flake, so if he’s questioning effort as well, it’s a problem (I’m sure he looks at it as taking contract $$ away from him at the end of the year, but if that motivates him to play better, so be it).
 

RorschachsMask

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In an article from the pre-season, Brown was quoted as saying he was happy the Celtics hired a POC as the new head coach and that he (Brown) felt a responsibility “not to let him fail”.

I think Brown can handle the criticism from Udoka, but needs to learn or be taught what good leadership and consistent effort looks like.

I don’t think Tatum can handle tough love; I don’t think he’s an alpha and never will be. He may be a top 10 talent, but he’s demonstrated repeatedly that he’s a whiny baby who thinks he’s arrived because everyone is blowing sunshine up his ass. It’s going to be a much more difficult challenge (imho) to improve his demeanor and earn the right to declare himself the leader of the team. I also hope I’m wrong.

Marcus is a classic wild card… I think he wants to do the right thing, but struggles emotionally and with his in-game decision-making too much.

I’m thrilled that Al is back; he sets a good example.

Schroeder has a reputation for being a bit of a flake, so if he’s questioning effort as well, it’s a problem (I’m sure he looks at it as taking contract $$ away from him at the end of the year, but if that motivates him to play better, so be it).
Tatum is well known to be able to handle tough love, and has a track record of doing so. The stories about his dad being so hard on him are crazy, Coach K called him out early on and Tatum took his game to another level. And then the well known story of Pop calling out his defense during a team usa video session a few years back, that’s what kicked off Tatum taking his game up multiple notches in the nba. He was also on the record as wanting a tough coach who would demand more out of him.

Just seems more like you have a set opinion about him.
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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In an article from the pre-season, Brown was quoted as saying he was happy the Celtics hired a POC as the new head coach and that he (Brown) felt a responsibility “not to let him fail”.

I think Brown can handle the criticism from Udoka, but needs to learn or be taught what good leadership and consistent effort looks like.

I don’t think Tatum can handle tough love; I don’t think he’s an alpha and never will be. He may be a top 10 talent, but he’s demonstrated repeatedly that he’s a whiny baby who thinks he’s arrived because everyone is blowing sunshine up his ass. It’s going to be a much more difficult challenge (imho) to improve his demeanor and earn the right to declare himself the leader of the team. I also hope I’m wrong.

Marcus is a classic wild card… I think he wants to do the right thing, but struggles emotionally and with his in-game decision-making too much.

I’m thrilled that Al is back; he sets a good example.

Schroeder has a reputation for being a bit of a flake, so if he’s questioning effort as well, it’s a problem (I’m sure he looks at it as taking contract $$ away from him at the end of the year, but if that motivates him to play better, so be it).
Where did you come across all this detailed color on these players personality types? Its fascinating, especially that characterization of Tatum. They should trade him tomorrow given that information.
 

CreightonGubanich

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I don't know whether Jayson Tatum is an "alpha", whatever that means, and I don't know how he responds to coaching. I don't know whether Tatum and Brown are "accountable", other than what I hear in brief press conference snippets that are basically worthless. I know the team has looked disorganized and sloppy over five games as they try to integrate new players, a new coach, and a new defensive scheme. I also know that Brown and Tatum are 25 and 23, respectively, are signed long term, have said they want to be here and play together, and that they have each improved dramatically every single year. I know it took Paul Pierce a long time to figure out how to be a leader, how to balance scoring, defense and playmaking, and what it took to win a championship. I know that when you have players with the potential that Brown and Tatum have, even when they're flawed and mercurial at times, you do everything you can to build around them and help them figure it out.

I mean, Jayson Tatum is 23 years old. Can we give him some time and space to figure it out? Doesn't mean we can't discuss where he needs to improve, but drawing conclusions about his motivations and character isn't good discussion; stating definitively what he will or won't be at this point in his career is silly.
 

lexrageorge

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Karalis/Keith Smart conversation getting into it. Karalis has felt (and said) from Day 1 of the pre-season that Marcus has been OFF attitude-wise.

Karalis speculates that Marcus feels slighted that they brought Schroder in
Given that the Celtics just signed Smart to a lucrative extension, and Schroder is here on a 1-and-done deal, I'm highly skeptical of Karalis' speculation.