Celebrating What Is

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
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Sep 9, 2008
26,246
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Rewatching on NFLN the end of SB 39 PAts - Carolina.
1) I can't believe that Fox went for 2 down 5 with 12:48 left in the fourth quarter. I know everyone already knows this, but each team in that game scored 4 TDs and a FG and the Patriots were 3 points better just because Fox was a moron about chasing points.

2) I can't believe that Fox called a time out with the Panthers on the 14 yard line and 1:43 left to go in the game. It's almost like he wanted to leave plenty of time.

Also, watching the first half of that game, which I don't think I've done in a long time, it's crazy how different football was back then. The Patriots' gameplan seemed to include just hitting everyone all the time whatever the situation. There was one play where a Carolina receiver got tackled over the middle and when he stood up two of the Patriots just tackled him again and drove him in to the ground -- pretending they thought he was trying to run again.

Credit where it's due -- the Panthers were incredibly resilient that game. They easily played well enough to win. Except they didn't win.
 

Dollar

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May 5, 2006
7,498
Randomness while watching parts of the 2003 Colts-Patriots regular season classic:

- This is just a fun game to watch. Peyton, Wayne, Harrison were all great.
- A bunch of random Patriots factored into this game in a big way:
- Dedric Ward with a beautiful route for a 31-yard touchdown (his only as a Patriot)
- Mike Cloud running for two short touchdowns on four carries (it was crazy how much we needed Corey Dillon in that era)
- Bethel Johnson with his finest regular season game with two huge kick returns, one for a TD
- This Bud Light commercial, which is probably the only Bud Light commercial I've ever enjoyed
- The goal line stop on second down at the end of the game is arguably more impressive than Willie's fourth down stop. Ted Washington seals a huge hole in the gap, then Bruschi along with Eugene Wilson and Matt Chatham (on goal line defense on a legendary defensive team in the biggest moment of a crucial game???? wow) combine to push Edge James back.
- Most importantly to me, is watching HOW MUCH BETTER 41 YEAR OLD TOM BRADY IS compared to his 26 year old self. He showed a strong arm a few times in this one and played alright for the most part, but there are so many times that he threw an absolutely horrible pass right to the Colts defender, and a few other times when the Colts dropped an easy pick. There are so many dreadful throws that we haven't seen him make in the last five years, and allowed the Colts to come back from 31-10 to tie it up. They won this game despite Brady, not because of him. And it just makes it that much more amazing that Brady at 41 is SO MUCH BETTER than what he was back then.
 
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BigSoxFan

Member
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May 31, 2007
31,157
Randomness while watching parts of the 2003 Colts-Patriots regular season classic:

- This is just a fun game to watch. Peyton, Wayne, Harrison were all great.
- A bunch of random Patriots factored into this game in a big way:
- Dedric Ward with a beautiful route for a 31-yard touchdown (his only as a Patriot)
- Mike Cloud running for two short touchdowns on four carries (it was crazy how much we needed Corey Dillon in that era)
- Bethel Johnson with his finest regular season game with two huge kick returns, one for a TD
- This Bud Light commercial, which is probably the only Bud Light commercial I've ever enjoyed
- The goal line stop on second down at the end of the game is arguably more impressive than Willie's fourth down stop. Ted Washington seals a huge hole in the gap, then Bruschi along with Eugene Wilson and Matt Chatham (on goal line defense on a legendary defensive team in the biggest moment of a crucial game???? wow) combine to push Edge James back.
- Most importantly to me, is watching HOW MUCH BETTER 41 YEAR OLD TOM BRADY IS compared to his 26 year old self. He showed a strong arm a few times in this one and played alright for the most part, but there are so many times that he threw an absolutely horrible pass right to the Colts defender, and a few other times when the Colts dropped an easy pick. There are so many dreadful throws that we haven't seen him make in the last five years, and allowed the Colts to come back from 31-10 to tie it up. They won this game despite Brady, not because of him. And it just makes it that much more amazing that Brady at 41 is SO MUCH BETTER than what he was back then.
One thing I noticed about Brady after watching the 2006 SD game was how much he did that leg kick thing before hiking the ball in obvious passing situations. He doesn’t seem to do it much anymore.
 

SumnerH

Malt Liquor Picker
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Jul 18, 2005
25,850
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This reinforces how terrible Ray Lewis is (no surprise to the families of Jacinth Baker and Richard Lollar). He went out of his way to take a moment to use Ed Reed's HOF induction—already itself off-topic—as a way to talk about how good Ray Lewis was.
 

Rook05

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Jul 18, 2005
2,514
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You know what? The worst part about this is that all the “5X championships” gear is now worthless. Thanks a lot, Patriots.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
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Jul 15, 2005
21,014
Hingham, MA
Here’s a good one: while the Pats have only played 8 road playoff games beginning in 2001, 6 of those 8 games came against the 1 seed. And the Pats are 4-2 in those 6 games. That is unreal. .667 on the road against the best team in the conference.

But they only win titles because of the tomato can AFC East.
 

Fisks Of Fury

Member
SoSH Member
You know what? The worst part about this is that all the “5X championships” gear is now worthless. Thanks a lot, Patriots.
The friend with whom I share my season tickets said that same thing throughout the season after the win over the Falcons. "Why would they limit themselves by printing up all this 5X stuff?" My response at the time was to say it was pretty ballsy to assume that we'd be talking about more than 5 so soon. 2 trips to the Superbowl later, my more realistic response is; "Of COURSE they sold all that stuuf, now they get to sell it all again!"
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
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Jul 15, 2005
21,014
Hingham, MA
Here's another fun stat: by my count, the Pats are 7-3 in the playoffs against #1 seeds. #tomatocans

Edit: none of which, by definition, were home games
 

loshjott

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Dec 30, 2004
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Here’s a good one: while the Pats have only played 8 road playoff games beginning in 2001, 6 of those 8 games came against the 1 seed. And the Pats are 4-2 in those 6 games. That is unreal. .667 on the road against the best team in the conference.

But they only win titles because of the tomato can AFC East.
Without looking it up, I can't remember the 4th #1 seed they've beaten on the road after Pitt twice and KC. Must be SD in 2006?
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
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Oct 1, 2015
5,485
That's an incredible fact, @tims4wins

2001 season. #2 seed, traveled to #1 Pittsburgh. Won 24-17.
2004 season. #2 seed, traveled to #1 Pittsburgh. Won 41-27.
2006 season. #4 seed, traveled to #1 San Diego. Won 24-21.
2013 season. #2 seed, traveled to #1 Denver. Lost 26-16.
2015 season. #2 seed, traveled to #1 Denver. Lost 20-18.
2018 season. #2 seed, traveled to #1 Kansas City. Won 37-31.

#tomatocansindeed
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
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Oct 1, 2015
5,485
To add to this, here are the #1 or #2 seeds the Patriots have played in the NFL playoffs since 2001 (the seasons listed are the NFL seasons, not the actual calendar years the games were played in; as the 2001 playoffs were actually played in 2002...just for clarification):

2001
- at #1 Pit - won 24-17
- vs #1 StL - won 20-17

2004
- at #1 Pit - won 41-27
- vs #1 Phi - won 24-21

2005
- at #2 Den - lost 27-13

2006
- at #1 SD - won 24-21

2011
- vs #2 Bal - won 23-20

2013
- at #1 Den - lost 26-16

2014
- vs #1 Sea - won 28-24

2015
- at #1 Den - lost 20-18

2016
- vs #2 Atl - won 34-28

2017
- vs #1 Phi - lost 41-33

2018
- at #1 KC - won 37-31
- vs #2 LAR - won 13-3

The Breakdown
Total vs. AFC #1: 4-2
Total vs. NFC #1: 3-1
Total vs. AFC #2: 1-1
Total vs. NFC #2: 2-0

Total vs. AFC #1 or #2: 5-3
Total vs. NFC #1 or #2: 5-1

Total vs. #1 seeds: 7-3
Total vs. #2 seeds: 3-1

TOTAL VS. #1 or #2 seeds: 10-4 (.714)
TOTAL HOME VS. #1 or #2 seeds: 1-0
TOTAL ROAD VS. #1 or #2 seeds: 4-3
TOTAL NEUTRAL VS. #1 or #2 seeds: 5-1


(It's interesting how few times the Patriots have played a home game against a #2 seed....)

*Thanks @tims4wins for correcting my math!
 
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BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
5,485
Oh my goodness this is too much to not keep going.

So Tom Brady has a .714 winning percentage against #1 or #2 seeds in the playoffs in his career. In other words, forget the "AFC least" or whatever other "tomato cans" we want to discuss. Let's just talk about the elite of each conference. Brady is .714 against the elite teams in the conference in the playoffs.

Here are the career regular season winning percentages of the other top QBs in NFL history (by winning %):

Brady vs. #1 or #2 seeds in the playoffs: .714
Montana regular season: .713
P. Manning regular season: .702
Bradshaw regular season: .677
Roethlisberger regular season: .676
Young regular season: .657

*Otto Graham, by the way, had a 57-13-1 career regular season record (.814).

So other than Graham, Brady has a better POSTSEASON (i.e., when things get harder) winning percentage against the #1 or #2 seeds than Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, Terry Bradshaw, John Elway, etc., had in their entire careers, regardless of opponent.

As far as postseason goes, Montana at 16-7 has the second best postseason record. Here's how Montana did against #1 or #2 seeds:

1981 - Beat #2 Dal, beat #1 Cin
1983 - Lost to #1 Was
1984 - Beat #1 Mia
1986 - Lost to #1 NYG
1988 - Beat #1 Chi, beat #1 Cin
1989 - Beat #1 Den
1990 - Lost to #2 NYG
1993 - Lost to #1 Buf

So against #1 or #2 seeds, Montana went 6-4 (.600), which is pretty damned good. But it's not 10-4 like Brady.
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
5,485
The average NFL career is about three and a half years. So let's round up to 4 to make this exercise a little easier. Now let's divide up the Patriots during Tom Brady's career into four-year chunks and see how they've done....

2000-2003 (39-25, .609, two division titles, two AFC titles, two SB titles)
- 2000: First year under BB. Went 5-11.
- 2001: Brady in for an injured Bledsoe, went 11-3 as a starter. Went 11-5 overall and won the Super Bowl.
- 2002: Went 9-7 and missed the playoffs.
- 2003: Went 14-2 and won the Super Bowl.

2004-2007 (52-12, .813, four division titles, two AFC titles, one SB title)
- 2004: Went 14-2 and won the Super Bowl.
- 2005: Went 10-6 and lost in the divisional round.
- 2006: Went 12-4 and lost in the AFCCG.
- 2007: Went 16-0 and lost in the Super Bowl.

2008-2011 (48-16, .750, three division titles, one AFC title, zero SB titles)
- 2008: Brady injured in the first quarter of the first game. Went 11-5 under Cassel and missed the playoffs.
- 2009: Went 10-6 and lost in the Wild Card round.
- 2010: Went 14-2 and lost in the divisional round.
- 2011: Went 13-3 and lost in the Super Bowl.

2012-2015 (48-16, .750, four division titles, one AFC title, one SB title)
- 2012: Went 12-4 and lost in the AFCCG.
- 2013: Went 12-4 and lost in the AFCCG.
- 2014: Went 12-4 and won the Super Bowl.
- 2015: Went 12-4 and lost in the AFCCG.

2016-2018 (38-10, .792, three division titles, three AFC titles, two SB titles)
- 2016: Went 14-2 and won the Super Bowl.
- 2017: Went 13-3 and lost in the Super Bowl.
- 2018: Went 11-5 and won the Super Bowl.

Any one of these "careers" would have been unbelievably successful. The Patriots (well, Tom Brady), have really had 5 separate average-length careers, and the WORST segment of these was the 2008-2011 period, when he lost a year due to injury, and where they "only" went to one Super Bowl, and lost it. Amazingly, we are currently in the best period, with one year to go (one year left in the four-year period).
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
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Jul 15, 2005
21,014
Hingham, MA
The Breakdown
Total vs. AFC #1: 4-2
Total vs. NFC #1: 3-1
Total vs. AFC #2: 1-1
Total vs. NFC #2: 2-0

Total vs. AFC #1 or #2: 6-2
Total vs. NFC #1 or #2: 5-1

Total vs. #1 seeds: 5-3
Total vs. #2 seeds: 5-1
Believe you have a couple errors here. vs AFC 1/2 should be 5-3. Total vs #1 should be 7-3. Total vs. #2 should be 3-1.
 

bakahump

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Someone mentioned BB and the Mic'd up comment about not being able to find McVay.

The comment was "Were is he..<someone tells him> oh yea Plus 40"

+40 is he Defenses side of the 50, at the 40. -40 would be the Offenses side of the 50.

I cant really tell you "he is at the 35." "Which 35....ours or theirs."

Obviously the closer to mid field you are the more this would apply. You wouldnt expect a HC to be at the opposite end of the field when his team is at the opponents 30. But at mid field with the confusion and jostling on the sidelines it wouldnt be weird to be at either his team or his opponents 40. Plus or Minus is shorthand for "His or our"
 

Gator4MVP88

lurker
Jun 27, 2006
72
FL
To add to this, here are the #1 or #2 seeds the Patriots have played in the NFL playoffs since 2001 (the seasons listed are the NFL seasons, not the actual calendar years the games were played in; as the 2001 playoffs were actually played in 2002...just for clarification):

2001
- at #1 Pit - won 24-17
- vs #1 StL - won 20-17

2004
- at #1 Pit - won 41-27
- vs #1 Phi - won 24-21

2005
- at #2 Den - lost 27-13

2006
- at #1 SD - won 24-21

2011
- vs #2 Bal - won 23-20

2013
- at #1 Den - lost 26-16

2014
- vs #1 Sea - won 28-24

2015
- at #1 Den - lost 20-18

2016
- vs #2 Atl - won 34-28

2017
- vs #1 Phi - lost 41-33

2018
- at #1 KC - won 37-31
- vs #2 LAR - won 13-3

The Breakdown
Total vs. AFC #1: 4-2
Total vs. NFC #1: 3-1
Total vs. AFC #2: 1-1
Total vs. NFC #2: 2-0

Total vs. AFC #1 or #2: 5-3
Total vs. NFC #1 or #2: 5-1

Total vs. #1 seeds: 7-3
Total vs. #2 seeds: 3-1

TOTAL VS. #1 or #2 seeds: 10-4 (.714)
TOTAL HOME VS. #1 or #2 seeds: 1-0
TOTAL ROAD VS. #1 or #2 seeds: 4-3
TOTAL NEUTRAL VS. #1 or #2 seeds: 5-1


(It's interesting how few times the Patriots have played a home game against a #2 seed....)

*Thanks @tims4wins for correcting my math!
I've always thought Brady's playoff record is all the more impressive because so few of those wins came against 5 or 6 seeds The counter argument to the above is that by playing in the AFC east, the schedule puts them in a great position to get a bye every year and that equals rest. That coupled with an 'easier' regular season allows them to be considerably more fresh and gives them an advantage that is borne out of schedule imbalance.

My counter counter is less objective and deals with the Pats success making the division worse and worse over time because the other teams have so much turnover in coaching, front office and personnel. I could say the same thing about Nick Saban's impact on the SEC West. Alabama has really separated themselves from the rest of the pack over there.
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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I've always thought Brady's playoff record is all the more impressive because so few of those wins came against 5 or 6 seeds The counter argument to the above is that by playing in the AFC east, the schedule puts them in a great position to get a bye every year and that equals rest. That coupled with an 'easier' regular season allows them to be considerably more fresh and gives them an advantage that is borne out of schedule imbalance.

My counter counter is less objective and deals with the Pats success making the division worse and worse over time because the other teams have so much turnover in coaching, front office and personnel. I could say the same thing about Nick Saban's impact on the SEC West. Alabama has really separated themselves from the rest of the pack over there.
Of course, the "AFC least" myth has been shattered numerous times, by numerous people. It's certainly not been the *best* division in football during this time, but it's been far from the worst. It's basically been...a league-average division (minus NE).
 

wiffleballhero

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Mar 28, 2009
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In the simulacrum
Just wanted to say they named this place Blinded By the Lombardi's 3 Super Bowls ago.
I've wondered about this. I've been reading SoSH since, I think, 2002. But for the life of me I have no recall of looking at anything related to football until apparently sometime in 2005.

What was it called beforehand?
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
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I've wondered about this. I've been reading SoSH since, I think, 2002. But for the life of me I have no recall of looking at anything related to football until apparently sometime in 2005.

What was it called beforehand?
TOM FLICK"S FLOCK
 

Van Everyman

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Apr 30, 2009
17,308
Newton
Curran, on how Belichick got them past Malcolm Butler's benching is a glorious read. I loved this in particular:

It’s ironic that the man who preceded Belichick, Pete Carroll, went about things very differently in Seattle after SB49. Everybody got to add their two cents on what the decision to throw instead of run cost them personally. Everybody got to hear explanation after explanation for why it happened.

Everybody got to pull out any other grudge they’d been holding prior to (again, ironically) Malcolm Butler’s interception and slap that on the table, too.

The sniping and bitterness never went away because it was allowed to get traction.

With the Patriots, it was Belichick the father taking the question, “Why?” from the family and saying, “Because I said so.”

And that was that.

This highlights again a unique aspect of the Patriots dynasty that will be hard for another team to replicate. The ability to get buy-in from a team even when there is unresolved bitterness.

The ability to not just take a loss but take a preventable loss in the biggest game when players and coaches had the opportunity to reach the goal they’d worked for all season or their entire football loves.

Take it. Process it. Pocket it. Then start again.
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/bill-belichicks-masterstoke-patriots-getting-them-move-past-anger-malcolm-butler-situation
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

All Hail King Boron
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Deep inside Muppet Labs

Marbleheader

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I've wondered about this. I've been reading SoSH since, I think, 2002. But for the life of me I have no recall of looking at anything related to football until apparently sometime in 2005.

What was it called beforehand?
Non-baseball sports were all combined and the forum has been BBTL since they were given their own forums.
 

simplyeric

aggressively nonsensical
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Feb 14, 2006
12,147
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And the BBtL name is from a Ron Borges quote from around 2004 saying that fans were too blinded by the Lombardis to see everything Belichick was doing wrong with the team.
This made me laugh so hard I shit a little.
(Although it should be noted that I was already sitting on the toilet).
 

CantKeepmedown

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Jul 15, 2005
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Man, the Butler stuff. Feels like forever ago. So happy to just be able to pour over highlights instead of listening to mediots talk about a coaching decision. It actually lead to me walking away from most talk radio. So at least there was some positive to come out of it.
 

Beale13

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Feb 2, 2006
48
I just love that the 100 years of the NFL commercial had fun with the fact that Brady's won so many rings and debuted at the literal moment he was in the process of adding another one.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
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Sep 9, 2008
26,246
AZ
2018 Coin Flip Data. (Why? Because I'm having some trouble letting go of the season but also running out of stuff to look at.)

Total coin flips: 20 (19 game and 1 OT)

Results all games: Patriots won 7 pregame flips and their opponents won 12 pregame flips. Patriots won 1 OT flip.

Results regular season: Patriots 6, Opponents 10

Results playoffs: Patriots 1, Opponents 2. Patriots 1 OT, Opponents 0 OT.

Opponents' Choice When Winning Pregame Flip: Opponents chose to defer in 11 of 12 games where they won the pregame flip. Patriots took the ball in all 11. Steelers elected not to defer and took the ball. Opponents chose to receive in the second half in every case where they deferred and the Patriots took the ball in the second half when the Steelers did not defer.

Patriots' Choice When Winning Pregame Flip: Patriots chose to defer in 5 of 7 games where they won the flip. Opponents took the ball in all 5. Patriots chose not to defer and took the ball against Jacksonville and against the Chargers in the playoffs. Patriots chose to receive in the second half in every case in which they deferred and the Opponent chose to receive in the second half in the two cases where the Patriots did not defer.

Patriots took the ball in the 1 OT game. (Duh.)

Patriots' Record When Winning Pregame Flip: 4-2 Regular Season; 1-0 Playoffs.

Patriots' Record When Losing Pregame Flip: 7-3 Regular Season; 2-0 Playoffs.
 

McBride11

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Jul 15, 2005
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Rewatching Pats - Sea, because why not I gotta work tomorrow. I forgot how classy Sea was after the first kneel down. Irving ejected, hahah
 

Dollar

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May 5, 2006
7,498
NFLN showed SB39 and then SB49 back to back, and it was shocking how much better Cris Collinsworth was in 2005 compared to ten years later. Maybe it was the fact that he shared color duties with Troy Aikman, so he didn't have to fill up dead air talking about stuff outside the game (like looking deep into Tom Brady's eyes).

I'm sure I felt differently at the time, but the Buck/Aikman/Collinsworth booth in 2005 was fantastic. I think Aikman has gotten better since then, but Cris has gotten much, much worse.