Celebrating What Is

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
71,099
Oregon

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
SB 42 wasn't the greatest game ever. It was a really good game with a signature play, and obviously its significance was huge in keeping NE from 19-0. But in terms of the excitement level and quality of the game, it pales in comparison to SB 49 (which I think should have been #1 on the list).

SB 49 had a team at the peak of its power, a budding dynasty, the defending champion with an all-time great defense in Seattle, against Brady, Belichick, and the resurgent Patriots trying for their first SB title since the 2004 season (none since Spygate). There was a controversy brewing (Deflategate). It was back-and-forth, haymakers thrown by both teams. It featured great defense and also great offense. It also was, til that point in time, the biggest comeback ever in a SB. And it also featured the greatest single play of all time. Moreover, it denied Seattle dynasty status and gave Brady title #4, tying him with Montana and Bradshaw. And it launched the second Pats' dynasty.

It had everything - excitement, drama, amazing plays, superduperstars, elite coaches, the works. SB 49 was the greatest game ever.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
And that article...oof. (speaking of SB 42)

"But after Brady hit Randy Moss for a 6-yard score (giving the Patriots a 14-10 lead), Giants quarterback Eli Manning responded when he completed the most bazaar pass in Super Bowl history."

WTF? It's "bizarre" you dummies.

And

"In a game that was dominated by defense, it was fitting that the Giants defense put its stamp on the game by forcing a turnover on the Patriots' final possession."

Uh, no they didn't. Brady threw incomplete on 4th and 20 on the Pats' last possession after NEARLY completing a 70+ yard bomb to Randy Moss.

In other words, this article is crap. But your point, @johnmd20, is still a good one - the Pats have been involved in so many of the NFL' s greatest games.
 

Seels

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
3,834
NH
49 is the greatest game of all time

The 2018 AFCCG has aged real well. Gonna be hard for Chiefs/Mahomes fans if they struggle making it back (as Manning Rodgers and Brees did) and the two closest times he got Brady stood in his way.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
49 is the greatest game of all time

The 2018 AFCCG has aged real well. Gonna be hard for Chiefs/Mahomes fans if they struggle making it back (as Manning Rodgers and Brees did) and the two closest times he got Brady stood in his way.
I totally agree. Pats-Chiefs in Arrowhead...an absolute all-timer. In this case the dynasty held off a charging newcomer, in a game filled with incredible plays and a walk-off touchdown. There's no doubt in my mind that if KC won the coin toss, they were winning the game. Too bad for them. :)
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
4,257
Imaginationland
And that article...oof. (speaking of SB 42)

"But after Brady hit Randy Moss for a 6-yard score (giving the Patriots a 14-10 lead), Giants quarterback Eli Manning responded when he completed the most bazaar pass in Super Bowl history."

WTF? It's "bizarre" you dummies.

And

"In a game that was dominated by defense, it was fitting that the Giants defense put its stamp on the game by forcing a turnover on the Patriots' final possession."

Uh, no they didn't. Brady threw incomplete on 4th and 20 on the Pats' last possession after NEARLY completing a 70+ yard bomb to Randy Moss.


In other words, this article is crap. But your point, @johnmd20, is still a good one - the Pats have been involved in so many of the NFL' s greatest games.
A turnover on downs is a turnover forced by the defense, even if it's with 1 second left in the game. Spelling bizarre wrong is indeed an odd error to make.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
A turnover on downs is a turnover forced by the defense, even if it's with 1 second left in the game. Spelling bizarre wrong is indeed an odd error to make.
It's not at all what people mean when they say "they forced a turnover". In the stats, there's "turnovers" and "turnovers on downs". And they're different things. When you say that a defense is good at generating turnovers, you aren't talking about making fourth down stops. You're talking about interceptions and fumbles.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
4,257
Imaginationland
That's because it's relatively rare. A turnover is a change of possession without a kick or punt. When the offense turns the ball over, be it on downs or via fumble or interception, the defense forced it. No matter how it's tracked statistically there's no problem with saying they forced the turnover to end the game. It's a semantic point and really not one worth nitpicking in this article.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
That's because it's relatively rare. A turnover is a change of possession without a kick or punt. When the offense turns the ball over, be it on downs or via fumble or interception, the defense forced it. No matter how it's tracked statistically there's no problem with saying they forced the turnover to end the game. It's a semantic point and really not one worth nitpicking in this article.
I think it's worth nitpicking or I wouldn't have brought it up. Look here:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/stats/_/type/team/name/ne

New England's 2020 team stats.

NE had 14 interceptions and 5 lost fumbles. That's 19 total turnovers.
NE's opponents had 18 interceptions and 4 lost fumbles. That's 22 total turnovers.
On the team stats they have, at the bottom, NE with a +3 turnover margin.

They also had NE with 9 fourth down conversions in 17 tries, meaning they had 8 failed fourth down conversions. So 8 "turnovers on downs".
They had NE's opponents with 9 fourth down conversions in 16 tries, meaning they had 7 failed fourth down conversions. So 7 "turnovers on downs".

But those aren't counted in the team "turnovers". Because they're not really what anyone means by "turnovers".

So NE had 19 total turnovers and 8 turnovers on downs. One every two games. Their opponents had 22 total turnovers and 7 turnovers on downs. Just under one every two games. Dallas had 14 turnovers on downs, or nearly one every game.

That's not "relatively rare". For NE, they had twice as many turnovers on downs as fumbles lost.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
4,257
Imaginationland
If the article had said they ended the game by "forcing a turnover on downs" would that be an ok? A turnover on downs is still a turnover, it's just not statistically tracked in the same way fumbles and interceptions are.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
If the article had said they ended the game by "forcing a turnover on downs" would that be an ok? A turnover on downs is still a turnover, it's just not statistically tracked in the same way fumbles and interceptions are.
Yes, if they said they stopped them on fourth down, sure that's fine. But virtually nobody thinks of a failed fourth down attempt as a "turnover", not the least of which is the NFL which totals fumbles lost and interceptions as turnovers, and not failed fourth down attempts.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
4,257
Imaginationland

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
13,010
Yes, if they said they stopped them on fourth down, sure that's fine. But virtually nobody thinks of a failed fourth down attempt as a "turnover", not the least of which is the NFL which totals fumbles lost and interceptions as turnovers, and not failed fourth down attempts.
It is called "turnover on downs". Just not tracked as a "turnover". What I'm not sure about is what happens if a player eats an apple turnover on the field, but if there is a rule about it, I'm sure Belichick knows about it.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,890
Hingham, MA
Been watching random old games recently.

Week 1, 2002. 3rd quarter, Pats up 17-7 and driving. John Madden: “I probably shouldn’t say this, but the way Tom Brady is so cool in the pocket reminds me of Joe Montana.”

Well then.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
Been watching random old games recently.

Week 1, 2002. 3rd quarter, Pats up 17-7 and driving. John Madden: “I probably shouldn’t say this, but the way Tom Brady is so cool in the pocket reminds me of Joe Montana.”

Well then.
It's too bad he doesn't run like Russell Wilson or Lamar Jackson - too bad he isn't a "mobile quarterback". Because otherwise he could be pretty good.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,738
Richmond, VA
Been watching random old games recently.

Week 1, 2002. 3rd quarter, Pats up 17-7 and driving. John Madden: “I probably shouldn’t say this, but the way Tom Brady is so cool in the pocket reminds me of Joe Montana.”

Well then.
Same loser who said they should just play for overtime in the Super Bowl just 7 months prior.
that Madden guy will go down in history as a totally uninformed hack.

(I’m kidding)
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,890
Hingham, MA
Same loser who said they should just play for overtime in the Super Bowl just 7 months prior.
that Madden guy will go down in history as a totally uninformed hack.

(I’m kidding)
I know we've been over this, but it is kind of impressive how quickly Madden pivoted during the drive. Most announcers would have dug in their heels.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,738
Richmond, VA
I know we've been over this, but it is kind of impressive how quickly Madden pivoted during the drive. Most announcers would have dug in their heels.
Oh sure. I’m not really criticizing Madden. New(ish) QB, biggest stage high pressure everything on the line...most teams would have played it safe. His pivot is evidence of how much he loved the game.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
Oh sure. I’m not really criticizing Madden. New(ish) QB, biggest stage high pressure everything on the line...most teams would have played it safe. His pivot is evidence of how much he loved the game.
He pivoted because it worked. If Brady had gotten strip sacked he wouldn't have pivoted. I love Madden but it's easy to say "Now I kind of like what he's doing" when he's marching the team downfield.
 

bakahump

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2001
6,862
Maine
his "approachability" (which I contend it part and parcel with his pivot during the drive) is part of what made him so great. Millions learned football from his "Boom"s. He made football fun and he knew that Drive was making that game fun.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
16,294
The Troy Brown catch-and-run out of bounds on that drive is the most underrated play in Patriot history. Completely changed the game and set up a dynasty.
 

jmcc5400

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2000
3,212
Which wouldn't have happened without the J.R. Redmond catch and dive out of bounds (did he really get out?).
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,890
Hingham, MA
JR got out, but did the ball get through the uprights before 0:00?
Why does it matter? Actually, the Rams probably should have gotten a chance at a KR.

Edit: also, it was really borderline whether JR actually got out. Like really, really borderline.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
7,319
Needham, MA
Totally agreed on both points. JR could easily have been called down in bounds, looked like his knees were down before he extended and slammed the ball on the sideline. And there was definitely 1 maybe 2 seconds left after the FG went through. Likely doesn't matter but then again we saw what happened against the Dolphins in 2018.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
Totally agreed on both points. JR could easily have been called down in bounds, looked like his knees were down before he extended and slammed the ball on the sideline. And there was definitely 1 maybe 2 seconds left after the FG went through. Likely doesn't matter but then again we saw what happened against the Dolphins in 2018.
I thought at first that JR was down, but on replay, maybe he fumbled the ball out of bounds before his knee hit. Tough to tell from the one camera angle they had.

And agree on the FG. They let the clock run those last couple of seconds when they shouldn't have.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
4,257
Imaginationland
He pivoted because it worked. If Brady had gotten strip sacked he wouldn't have pivoted. I love Madden but it's easy to say "Now I kind of like what he's doing" when he's marching the team downfield.
It's pretty much all forgiven considering his line when Brady was jogging off having gotten Vinatieri in range ("What Tom Brady just did gives me goosebumps."). Just excellent.
 

Cotillion

lurker
Jun 11, 2019
1,329
Totally agreed on both points. JR could easily have been called down in bounds, looked like his knees were down before he extended and slammed the ball on the sideline. And there was definitely 1 maybe 2 seconds left after the FG went through. Likely doesn't matter but then again we saw what happened against the Dolphins in 2018.
They eventually made it an official rule that only 6 seconds (or some number I don't know off the top of my head anymore) could elapse on any field goal attempt...
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,890
Hingham, MA
I thought at first that JR was down, but on replay, maybe he fumbled the ball out of bounds before his knee hit. Tough to tell from the one camera angle they had.

And agree on the FG. They let the clock run those last couple of seconds when they shouldn't have.
Yeah I just watched it again a couple times - they never showed a replay so it's really tough to tell when / where he was down, and if he was down prior to fumbling, etc. Of the roughly 1000 things that went miraculously right for the Pats during the 2001 season, this one doesn't get talked about, like, at all. But it was so incredibly crucial.
 

amRadio

lurker
Feb 7, 2019
625
Oakland and St. Louis fans sure talk about it. I brought it up purely tongue-in-cheek ftr. That kick is my first indelible NFL memory.

Edit: also, it was really borderline whether JR actually got out. Like really, really borderline.
This sent me to youtube. Holy crap, that whole drive was walking on egg shells.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
Yeah I just watched it again a couple times - they never showed a replay so it's really tough to tell when / where he was down, and if he was down prior to fumbling, etc. Of the roughly 1000 things that went miraculously right for the Pats during the 2001 season, this one doesn't get talked about, like, at all. But it was so incredibly crucial.
Definitely. A lot of clock runs off if they rule him in bounds.

Also, I'm not 100% convinced Brady didn't get away with an intentional grounding when he was rushed out of the pocket. I'm not sure he made it outside the tackle box when he threw it away on that drive.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,890
Hingham, MA
Here's another fun one from a game I recently watched.

Week 5, 2001. The Pats were 1-3, having beaten Indy in Brady's first start but having gotten clobbered down in Miami. Facing the Flutie-led Chargers. 4th quarter, 6 minutes to play, down 26-16. 4th and 2 from their own 48 yard line. Pats go for it, convert, eventually kick a FG on that drive, tie it on the next drive, win it in OT. If they hadn't picked up that first down, they probably fall to 1-4 and who the hell knows what happens.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,890
Hingham, MA
Definitely. A lot of clock runs off if they rule him in bounds.

Also, I'm not 100% convinced Brady didn't get away with an intentional grounding when he was rushed out of the pocket. I'm not sure he made it outside the tackle box when he threw it away on that drive.
Agreed on the grounding, great point. Another huge break on the tiniest of margins.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
45,280
He pivoted because it worked. If Brady had gotten strip sacked he wouldn't have pivoted. I love Madden but it's easy to say "Now I kind of like what he's doing" when he's marching the team downfield.
Well, yes. Exactly. His job is to give opinions---he gave one. When it looked like he was wrong, he said as much. If Brady had fumbled of course he wouldn't have pivoted.

To give him grief for that means, once a guy gives an initial opinion, he can do one of 2 things:

1--say he's still right despite evidence to the contrary
2--change his mind when given new info

I'd prefer #2.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
Well, yes. Exactly. His job is to give opinions---he gave one. When it looked like he was wrong, he said as much. If Brady had fumbled of course he wouldn't have pivoted.

To give him grief for that means, once a guy gives an initial opinion, he can do one of 2 things:

1--say he's still right despite evidence to the contrary
2--change his mind when given new info

I'd prefer #2.
Agreed. I thought he did just fine on the call.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
50,153
New York City
I was at the game, sitting in the end zone where Vinitari's kick went through. I never had the chance to hear what Madden was saying.

</brag>
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,738
Richmond, VA
Well, yes. Exactly. His job is to give opinions---he gave one. When it looked like he was wrong, he said as much. If Brady had fumbled of course he wouldn't have pivoted.

To give him grief for that means, once a guy gives an initial opinion, he can do one of 2 things:

1--say he's still right despite evidence to the contrary
2--change his mind when given new info

I'd prefer #2.
Just for argument’s sake, there is the possibility of someone making a bad decision, having them get lucky and winning, and it still being a bad decision
I definitely don’t think this game is an example of that, but there are such.