Cavs Sign Tacko Fall

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
4,749
Tacko can set big picks. He can post up, which the Celtics don’t value much. He can rim run, but can’t really adjust if the pass isn’t good.

I like the idea of Tacko in a zone defense.
 

Niastri

Member
SoSH Member
As a Syracuse fan, I have seen perhaps too much 2-3 zone. It can be extremely effective when a competent shot blocker is in the middle. Falls 8.2 blocks per 100 possessions (SSS!) makes him much better than merely competent. Syracuse recruits long armed tall players mostly with their zone in mind. The Celtics personnel should work great for a 2-3 with Falls in the middle. If he gets into the rotation, playing 3-4 minutes of zone here and there can get opposing offenses totally out of whack.

Against college players, entire games can go by with opposing offenses stymied and confused, shooting bad threes from too far away and turning it over trying to force the ball into problem areas for the defense... Of course NBA players will figure it out a lot faster, but as a gimmick the 2-3 zone could cause a lot of disruption, both in going into and coming out of the zone. At the least, it would be fun to watch.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
12,228
Santa Monica
As a Syracuse fan, I have seen perhaps too much 2-3 zone. It can be extremely effective when a competent shot blocker is in the middle. Falls 8.2 blocks per 100 possessions (SSS!) makes him much better than merely competent. Syracuse recruits long armed tall players mostly with their zone in mind. The Celtics personnel should work great for a 2-3 with Falls in the middle. If he gets into the rotation, playing 3-4 minutes of zone here and there can get opposing offenses totally out of whack.

Against college players, entire games can go by with opposing offenses stymied and confused, shooting bad threes from too far away and turning it over trying to force the ball into problem areas for the defense... Of course NBA players will figure it out a lot faster, but as a gimmick the 2-3 zone could cause a lot of disruption, both in going into and coming out of the zone. At the least, it would be fun to watch.
Also a lifelong Cuse fan

Spo/Miami had a nice twist on the 2-3 last season. They went really long at the top with Derrick Jones Jr/Butler and hid their lesser defenders, Herro/Duncan on the wings with Bam in the middle. I recall it being very effective, creating plenty of steals at the top and easy transition layups for Butler/DJJ.
Spo's Theory is that you need your strongest defenders at the top since they cover the most ground, defend the top of the perimeter, & influence the point of attack. I think he's right.

If the Celtics did a 2-3 for short minutes I'd love to see Tatum and Brown up top (w/Tacko in the middle). Watch JayCrew wreck havoc on the perimeter with Tacko taking care of the rim.
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
7,179
If the Celtics did a 2-3 for short minutes I'd love to see Tatum and Brown up top (w/Tacko in the middle). Watch JayCrew wreck havoc on the perimeter with Tacko taking care of the rim.
Did this scenario play out in the January 8 game against the Wizards when Tacko had 19 minutes of playing time?

I don’t recall the specific line ups but I think Fall was on the floor with Tatum and Brown and they were playing zone. In that game Tacko was really effectively clogging the lane and had a very good DRtg of 95.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
16,442
The lede here is Tacko has a great real estate agent. Look at all that headroom above a 7'6" man!
That was my thought too. I remember once on a tour of the TD Garden being taken into the locker room and being amazed at how high the shower heads were.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
12,228
Santa Monica
Brad should experiment with Tacko in short minutes vs Embiid on Friday night. See if Fall can alter Joels shots without grabbing him because TT/DT defense was getting whistled every trip down the floor
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
24,002
Brad should experiment with Tacko in short minutes vs Embiid on Friday night. See if Fall can alter Joels shots without grabbing him because TT/DT defense was getting whistled every trip down the floor
I'm all for experimentation but its not like this is the first time TT has played against Embiid. According to this website - https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/joel_embiid_vs_tristan_thompson.htm - TT has faced Embiid 7 other times and the most number of FTs Embiid got was 8. So hopefully last night was an outlier of sorts.

DT in particular played with his hands way too much last night (as opposed to feet and body).

Though it would be fun to see Tacko in there. He's hopefully big enough that he wouldn't give ground every time Embiid uses his shoulder.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
25,897
I expect Tacko will just not be strong enough. That said, he sets up a defense where he stands with arms up still and then can flop (loudly) when Embiid drops the shoulder. And if Embiid just does a turnaround, Tacko can likely influence it.

Worth a shot---Theis was completely hopeless last night defensively, and while some of that was awful officiating he also was bad.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
16,442
I'm not worried at all about Embiid in the playoffs. We have seen this story year after year; he simply doesn't have the conditioning to dominate for 35 minutes over the course of the series. Remember last season? He would start each game with like, a 14 point first quarter and then gas out. He was very good last night when he got the benefit of literally every whistle and was allowed copious amounts of rest while he waited to take his free throws, but that isn't something likely to be repeated, especially over the course of the series.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
39,499
I'm not worried at all about Embiid in the playoffs. We have seen this story year after year; he simply doesn't have the conditioning to dominate for 35 minutes over the course of the series. Remember last season? He would start each game with like, a 14 point first quarter and then gas out. He was very good last night when he got the benefit of literally every whistle and was allowed copious amounts of rest while he waited to take his free throws, but that isn't something likely to be repeated, especially over the course of the series.
Yup. Bottom line is that Tobias Harris is not a good enough sidekick now that Simmons is basically on the side of a milk carton offensively. Curry and Green will knock down open shots but they're not creators. Embiid basically has to be 1994-1995 Hakeem Olajuwon for this team to win a title. And I don't think he has it in him.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
4,713
Yup. Bottom line is that Tobias Harris is not a good enough sidekick now that Simmons is basically on the side of a milk carton offensively. Curry and Green will knock down open shots but they're not creators. Embiid basically has to be 1994-1995 Hakeem Olajuwon for this team to win a title. And I don't think he has it in him.
I've been critical of Tobias Harris and his periodic vanishing act, but he was damn good last nite, especially in the first quarter after the C's bolted to that quick lead. He was quieter later, but mainly because of Embiid's parade to the free-throw line.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
8,426
Kiev, Ukraine
I'm not worried at all about Embiid in the playoffs. We have seen this story year after year; he simply doesn't have the conditioning to dominate for 35 minutes over the course of the series. Remember last season? He would start each game with like, a 14 point first quarter and then gas out. He was very good last night when he got the benefit of literally every whistle and was allowed copious amounts of rest while he waited to take his free throws, but that isn't something likely to be repeated, especially over the course of the series.
Yeah, I've seen this movie too many times now to be concerned. Embiid is insanely elite, and maybe getting better, but the Celtics have too many guys who can bother Simmons, and too much offensive talent when Tatum, Walker, and Brown are together.

In a playoff situation I also expect both better scheming and execution.
 

djbayko

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
16,588
Los Angeles, CA
I expect Tacko will just not be strong enough. That said, he sets up a defense where he stands with arms up still and then can flop (loudly) when Embiid drops the shoulder. And if Embiid just does a turnaround, Tacko can likely influence it.

Worth a shot---Theis was completely hopeless last night defensively, and while some of that was awful officiating he also was bad.
Can you imagine Tacko taking a charge? How long would it take for him to Fall?
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
39,499
I've been critical of Tobias Harris and his periodic vanishing act, but he was damn good last nite, especially in the first quarter after the C's bolted to that quick lead. He was quieter later, but mainly because of Embiid's parade to the free-throw line.
He’s a solid player but I don’t think he’s good enough to be the Robin to Embiid’s Batman on a title team. Just my opinion.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
5,390
It seemed like Philly was often able to get Teague switched on to Embiid as well. It's almost like there should be a competitive balance rule against that or something :)

Defense was ineffective, but DT was great on the offensive end. On the flipside, I'm getting really tired of people passing the ball to TT so that it can bounce off his hands and go out of bounds.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
4,713
He’s a solid player but I don’t think he’s good enough to be the Robin to Embiid’s Batman on a title team. Just my opinion.
I think that would depend on how good the Nos. 3, 4 and 5 (and the bench) are. Harris is averaging 19.3 points. 6.8 rebounds and 3.1 assists this season, and he's shooting 50 percent from the line, 41 percent on 3-pointers and 50 percent overall. Those are excellent numbers for a Robin, assuming the team gets significant contributions for other players not named Batman.
 

TheRooster

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2001
2,363
It seemed like Philly was often able to get Teague switched on to Embiid as well. It's almost like there should be a competitive balance rule against that or something :)

Defense was ineffective, but DT was great on the offensive end. On the flipside, I'm getting really tired of people passing the ball to TT so that it can bounce off his hands and go out of bounds.
This X10. I'm amazed that a good rebounder has such bad hands. For the first few games I thought it must be an aberration. I no longer believe that.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
16,442
Yeah, I've seen this movie too many times now to be concerned. Embiid is insanely elite, and maybe getting better, but the Celtics have too many guys who can bother Simmons, and too much offensive talent when Tatum, Walker, and Brown are together.

In a playoff situation I also expect both better scheming and execution.
Put it this way, Philly got a massive night for Embiid and he shot a million free throws; Boston didn't have Tatum. Celtics still probably win the game if Kemba and Jaylen just hit a few shots they typically make. It's really hard for me to picture a scenario where Philly is able to beat a healthy Boston team four times in a series. Philly need a ton of good fortune to eek out one game last night.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
39,499
I think that would depend on how good the Nos. 3, 4 and 5 (and the bench) are. Harris is averaging 19.3 points. 6.8 rebounds and 3.1 assists this season, and he's shooting 50 percent from the line, 41 percent on 3-pointers and 50 percent overall. Those are excellent numbers for a Robin, assuming the team gets significant contributions for other players not named Batman.
Yup, that's fair. Trading Simmons+ for Harden would have made them deadly because Harris would be an elite 3rd option. As a 2nd option, he's solid but not spectacular.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
4,713
Yup, that's fair. Trading Simmons+ for Harden would have made them deadly because Harris would be an elite 3rd option. As a 2nd option, he's solid but not spectacular.
Agreed. Simmons, it's becoming apparent, is the bigger issue in Philly.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,760
Yup, that's fair. Trading Simmons+ for Harden would have made them deadly because Harris would be an elite 3rd option. As a 2nd option, he's solid but not spectacular.
That's a failed deal that Morey's going to rue.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
12,228
Santa Monica
I need to start adjusting my opinion on Ben Simmons when Grant and Semi can ably guard him :eek:

Brad got quite a bit of intel out of the game. Its better when they get wins, but Kemba's health/progress and trying different rotations take precedence. Hopefully, we'll get TL back Friday and see if he can slow Embiid down. AND still like the idea of a 3-4 minute spell of Tacko on Embiid, to see if he can mess with Joel's mojo.

Would like to see TT set more picks/screens up top. AND he really needs to stop posting up, clogging lanes & blundering bounce passes.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
5,390
Maybe he'll learn, but I'm getting really tired of seeing folks pass the ball to TT. It's like a guaranteed turnover.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
39,499
Maybe he'll learn, but I'm getting really tired of seeing folks pass the ball to TT. It's like a guaranteed turnover.
Think I mentioned it in a game thread but it’s basically Perk all over again. No reason to pass it to him unless he’s wide open under the hoop.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
4,305
Imaginationland
It's still an early sample, but he's shooting about 58% on shots 0-3 feet from the basket (we'll assume those are mostly putbacks and layup attempts) and just 38% on shots 3-10 feet out (the latter also happens to make up 38% of his shot attempts). Unless he's directly under the hoop, he should never be creating his own offense.
 

djbayko

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
16,588
Los Angeles, CA
It's still an early sample, but he's shooting about 58% on shots 0-3 feet from the basket (we'll assume those are mostly putbacks and layup attempts) and just 38% on shots 3-10 feet out (the latter also happens to make up 38% of his shot attempts). Unless he's directly under the hoop, he should never be creating his own offense.
Wrong...F

View: https://streamable.com/d80m3w
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
12,228
Santa Monica
It's still an early sample, but he's shooting about 58% on shots 0-3 feet from the basket (we'll assume those are mostly putbacks and layup attempts) and just 38% on shots 3-10 feet out (the latter also happens to make up 38% of his shot attempts). Unless he's directly under the hoop, he should never be creating his own offense.
.38% is above his career average (.346), he better pick it up defensively or we'll see him battling for minutes with Theis/TL
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
5,390
It's "unfortunate" that there seems to be so little BIG minutes to go around these days. That probably will be "solved" with an injury to someone before too long - as I think it'd be interesting to see Tacko come in the game for a 4 minute stretch in the 1st and 2nd halves just to screw with the other team. He really is an incredible shot blocker that alters players' approach.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
12,228
Santa Monica
It's "unfortunate" that there seems to be so little BIG minutes to go around these days. That probably will be "solved" with an injury to someone before too long - as I think it'd be interesting to see Tacko come in the game for a 4 minute stretch in the 1st and 2nd halves just to screw with the other team. He really is an incredible shot blocker that alters players' approach.
one of the BIGs will get injured, they always do

I'm not convinced Tacko is unplayable in small stretches against classic BIGs.
Tre/Carsen are trending more to the unplayable category then TF
 
Last edited:

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,906
one of the BIGs will get injured, they always do

I'm not convinced Tacko is unplayable in small stretches against classic BIGs.
Tre/Carsen are trending more to the unplayable category then TF
The problem isn’t Fall against bigs.....the problem is playing him against veteran guards/wings who understand how to exploit his inability to defend the perimeter by creating switches and/or open looks.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
5,390
They obviously aren't shooting over him, and his wingspan is like half the court. I'm not convinced yet he is any worse on the perimeter than Tristan Thompson (could be wrong on that).
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
12,228
Santa Monica
The problem isn’t Fall against bigs.....the problem is playing him against veteran guards/wings who understand how to exploit his inability to defend the perimeter by creating switches and/or open looks.
yea yea.

Milwaukee put Brook Lopez (an atrocious defensive player on the perimeter) on the cusp of All NBA defense by having him drop back. Wings/PGs can fight over screens, or trail and run guys off the 3 with Tacko retreating to the rim. You live with mid-range jumpers challenged from behind in the half court.

Not sure I'm all that excited to watch Tristan Thompson run out to the perimeter and get beaten once again for 25+mpg
 
Last edited:

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
8,106
They obviously aren't shooting over him, and his wingspan is like half the court. I'm not convinced yet he is any worse on the perimeter than Tristan Thompson (could be wrong on that).
Plus they should be playing a lot of zone when he’s in, which should limit his time spent on the perimeter.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,906
You could say that about half the bigs in the league though. Embiid sure as shit doesn't make an effort to defend the perimeter.
It’s about being agile and aware enough to be switchable and every good team can exploit Fall by creating mismatches. We are limited in that we are almost forced to play zone with Fall in the game which is why he’s unplayable against these type teams right now.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,906
He looked OK on this play against the Magic (starts at 0:22 in the video). Looks like his lateral quickness has improved quite a bit since last year. Just one play of course...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqQjPd87iD4
Oh there’s no doubt he’s improved his agility to be able to compete in some NBA games against certain competition. When I’m thinking good NBA teams with veteran guards/wings exploiting him in PNR I wasn’t exactly referring to the Orlando Magic with Jordan Bone and Khem Birch. ;)
 

bgo544

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 25, 2003
722
East Bay
Yeah, which is one reason his role will be limited. But at least he has advanced to the point of doing a creditable job against second units. I've just been impressed by the strides he has made in the past year - positioning, conditioning, agility - all look better. Still plenty to improve on.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
12,228
Santa Monica
Oh there’s no doubt he’s improved his agility to be able to compete in some NBA games against certain competition. When I’m thinking good NBA teams with veteran guards/wings exploiting him in PNR I wasn’t exactly referring to the Orlando Magic with Jordan Bone and Khem Birch. ;)
Yea Tacko in small stretches in certain matchups is what I'm thinking/saying.

Agreed.He's not ready for 25mpg against top-flight comp
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
4,749
The problem isn’t Fall against bigs.....the problem is playing him against veteran guards/wings who understand how to exploit his inability to defend the perimeter by creating switches and/or open looks.
Well he hasn’t played against a lot if veteran guards yet, but garbage time guards have had trouble scoring over him on switches.

If he keeps improving his ability to move, we might get a chance to see if Tacko is playable
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
12,228
Santa Monica
Well he hasn’t played against a lot if veteran guards yet, but garbage time guards have had trouble scoring over him on switches.

If he keeps improving his ability to move, we might get a chance to see if Tacko is playable
How did he do when RWB and Beal were on the floor, did the Wizards torch the Celtics/Fall?

because you know they are pretty good
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,906
Well he hasn’t played against a lot if veteran guards yet, but garbage time guards have had trouble scoring over him on switches.

If he keeps improving his ability to move, we might get a chance to see if Tacko is playable
That’s the ole rookie argument about playing time. There is a good reason why we haven’t seen it.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
4,749
That’s the ole rookie argument about playing time. There is a good reason why we haven’t seen it.
Tacko isn’t a typical player, obviously. There are some cases of very tall players, who never did much in college besides play near the hoop, taking time to develop into NBA players.

It is more difficult with todays style of play, and we might never see Tacko in an NBA rotation, but the Celtics see something in him. I’m not going to be surprised when he plays rotation minutes somewhere in the NBA in the next couple of years.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,906
Tacko isn’t a typical player, obviously. There are some cases of very tall players, who never did much in college besides play near the hoop, taking time to develop into NBA players.

It is more difficult with todays style of play, and we might never see Tacko in an NBA rotation, but the Celtics see something in him. I’m not going to be surprised when he plays rotation minutes somewhere in the NBA in the next couple of years.
100% agree about bigs being on a different timeline to success. I’m referring to Tacko right now as far as not playing against quality and veteran opposition.