Cashman's Cano Contract Conundrum

glennhoffmania

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jon abbey said:
You guys are (understandably) forgetting about Brendan Ryan, who will presumably get a lot of time at SS and 2B. 
If Jeter is healthy I don't see that happening.  Assuming that ARod is gone a lineup that includes Ryan at SS and Jeter at DH would be pretty bad.  If he plays 2B, you're sitting either Johnson or Soriano or someone who can hit.  Unless maybe they're planning to use Johnson as the regular 3B.  No matter what, I don't see Ryan getting a meaningful number of PAs. 
 

tims4wins

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When was the last time the Yankees let a superstar (in his prime years) walk as a free agent? Has it happened in the last 30 years?
 

Brickowski

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You don't need to spend $240M for a decent defensive second baseman.
 
Now the Yankees should go after Kuroda (reportedly done) and Tanaka.  Tanaka's Japanese team is making noise about not posting him, but in two years they will lose him for nothing if they hold out.
 

melonbag

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tims4wins said:
When was the last time the Yankees let a superstar (in his prime years) walk as a free agent? Has it happened in the last 30 years?
 
Does Pettite count?
 

YankeesIsrael

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tims4wins said:
When was the last time the Yankees let a superstar (in his prime years) walk as a free agent? Has it happened in the last 30 years?
 
"Superstar" may be a bit of a stretch, but they let John Wetteland go following a year in which he led the league in saves, and won World Series MVP. Too bad they never filled that void.
 

hbk72777

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YankeesIsrael said:
 
"Superstar" may be a bit of a stretch, but they let John Wetteland go following a year in which he led the league in saves, and won World Series MVP. Too bad they never filled that void.
 
 
Tino maybe? Though he was replaced by Giambi.
 

Sampo Gida

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Back to square 1.  Despite the Ellsbury and McCann signings that are costing them almost 40 AAV for about the same WAR Cano produces in a good year they are not much better than they were to start the offseason.  As currently constructed you are looking at a sub-500 team, even with Kuroda,  whose 2nd half collapse may not bode well for 2014.
 
Feel bad for Yankee fans who were suckered into sending out those checks in the aftermath of the Ellsbury signing.
 

rembrat

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Who the hell is going to a baseball game to see Jacoby Ellsbury? He steals bases. That's it. He doesn't throw at people, he doesn't hit bombs, he doesn't style, and he isn't a colorful personality. He's vanilla. He's the vanilla of vanilla. The last few days have been astounding to watch unfold.
 

jon abbey

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rembrat said:
Who the hell is going to a baseball game to see Jacoby Ellsbury? He steals bases. That's it. He doesn't throw at people, he doesn't hit bombs, he doesn't style, and he isn't a colorful personality. He's vanilla. He's the vanilla of vanilla. The last few days have been astounding to watch unfold.
 
Women? Honestly, that is my only guess. 
 

Brickowski

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jon abbey said:
 
Women? Honestly, that is my only guess. 
Depends on how he plays.  IMHO the Yankees overpaid for Ellsbury, but if you think about it, the Yankees got both Ellsbury and McCann for what Seattle is paying Cano.  My guess is that collectively they'll produce more runs than Cano, particularly since Cano will have little or no protection in Seattle's lineup (unless the Mariners make another big splash).
 

jon abbey

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Brickowski said:
My guess is that collectively they'll produce more runs than Cano, particularly since Cano will have little or no protection in Seattle's lineup (unless the Mariners make another big splash).
 
Maybe, maybe not, but it's a silly comparison because they take up two spots in the order to Cano's one. If you compare NY's 2013 catchers/Granderson (presumably healthy)/Cano to McCann/Ellsbury/whoever will play 2B for NY, that makes a lot more sense and that is unlikely to be an upgrade for NY. 
 

terrynever

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jon abbey said:
 
Maybe, maybe not, but it's a silly comparison because they take up two spots in the order to Cano's one. If you compare NY's 2013 catchers/Granderson (presumably healthy)/Cano to McCann/Ellsbury/whoever will play 2B for NY, that makes a lot more sense and that is unlikely to be an upgrade for NY. 
Just spitballing here. If McCann hits 20 homers in 110 games behind the plate, that's plus-15 over the 2013 catchers. He may hit a few more as DH. If Kelly Johnson plays second in 2014, he hits around 15 homers. So you lose 15 at second base. Granderson vs. Soriano might be a push in 2014, assuming both stay healthy. So maybe the power quotient is the same, even without Cano.
 
The real key to 2014 for the Yankees is Teixeira. Just who is he, coming off wrist surgery? Nobody knows. Maybe he cuts down on his swing, hits for better average, with diminished power. He's definitely an OBP machine either way. I see him as Cano's replacement in the 3 slot. McCann is the current cleanup hitter. Soriano bats fifth. Jeter leads off. Jake hits second. Or vice versa. Gardner bats ninth. Cashman's going to find another power hitter to bat sixth. Who's the DH?
 
I'm good with Matt Garza. Ubaldo might explode his head in Manhattan one night.
 
Anyway, it's an interesting time now for the Yankees. Way too early to do what I just did and project lineups. But somehow, with Cano gone, it feels like the franchise is moving forward with many holes to fill. I still think they can contend in the East, especially if Tampa trades Price.
 

Brickowski

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Well Jon, I'm not nearly as high on Granderson as you are.  He should spell his first name with a K.
 
IMHO it's all about pitching (especially young pitching if you can find and/or develop it).  At minimum the Yankees need at least one more quality starter, a set up man and probably another lefty reliever.
 
If the Yankees had matched Seattle's offer for Cano, there would be a legion of Red Sox fans pointing out how NY has screwed itself long term, especially considering the luxury tax implications.  They would also be saying that even with Cano, the Yankees would be unlikely to contend without major improvement in their pitching staff. And they would be right on both points. 
 

jon abbey

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Brickowski said:
If the Yankees had matched Seattle's offer for Cano, there would be a legion of Red Sox fans pointing out how NY has screwed itself long term, especially considering the luxury tax implications.  They would also be saying that even with Cano, the Yankees would be unlikely to contend without major improvement in their pitching staff. And they would be right on both points. 
 
Yep, they were screwed all along either way, either short term or long term, hence the title of this thread. 
 

hbk72777

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terrynever said:
Just spitballing here. If McCann hits 20 homers in 110 games behind the plate, that's plus-15 over the 2013 catchers. He may hit a few more as DH. If Kelly Johnson plays second in 2014, he hits around 15 homers. So you lose 15 at second base. Granderson vs. Soriano might be a push in 2014, assuming both stay healthy. So maybe the power quotient is the same, even without Cano.
 
The real key to 2014 for the Yankees is Teixeira. Just who is he, coming off wrist surgery? Nobody knows. Maybe he cuts down on his swing, hits for better average, with diminished power. He's definitely an OBP machine either way. I see him as Cano's replacement in the 3 slot. McCann is the current cleanup hitter. Soriano bats fifth. Jeter leads off. Jake hits second. Or vice versa. Gardner bats ninth. Cashman's going to find another power hitter to bat sixth. Who's the DH?
 
I'm good with Matt Garza. Ubaldo might explode his head in Manhattan one night.
 
Anyway, it's an interesting time now for the Yankees. Way too early to do what I just did and project lineups. But somehow, with Cano gone, it feels like the franchise is moving forward with many holes to fill. I still think they can contend in the East, especially if Tampa trades Price.
 
Exactly, They got zero out of the catcher's position last year. So Cano and the 5 crappy catchers vs Ellsbury and McCann.
 
 
Depending on who they get at 2nd, it could be a plus over the total of three positions.
 
Or it might not be, we'll see.
 

bankshot1

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jon abbey said:
 
Yep, they were screwed all along either way, either short term or long term, hence the title of this thread. 
 
 
Helplessly hoping his homer hitters head home. 
 
Confusion (or clarity) has its cost. 
 
I thought the title captured Cashman's concerns
 

Bibsley

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it is interesting that it seems the Sox valued Ells at max 5/100, the market at 7/153+; the Yankees Cano at 7/175 max, the market 10/240. Both contracts already look likely substantial overpays in terms of true market value, but other than the fact that the Sox and Yanks valued their own assets significantly below actual market, the most noticeable thing is that the Yanks valued Cano so little over Ells. That they gave the latter an AAV of near $22m, with an options for an 8th year, but Cano offered barely more than that is surely pig stubborn. Even at the market values, I'd rather have Cano's contract on my books today at an AAV of Ells+$2m, not least because Cano will likely age better. And that's not even taking into account duplication of skills with Ells/Gardner. Yanks could afford the extra 2-3 years, maybe their perspective skewed by Slappy-hate?
 

jon abbey

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I don't think it's a fair comparison, one is a price they knew they could get Ellsbury at and the other was a bargaining position which was $75-$130M away from what Cano's agents were telling them they wanted. 
 

nvalvo

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jon abbey said:
I don't think it's a fair comparison, one is a price they knew they could get Ellsbury at and the other was a bargaining position which was $75-$130M away from what Cano's agents were telling them they wanted. 
 
Right — the offer seems to have just been ass covering with the fans. They'd have been delighted if he accepted it, but the ship was clearly sailing.
 
The Sox' situation with Ellsbury was the same way: 5/$100 or 6/$110 were never going to get it done, and we all knew that. 
 
The apt comparisons are 7/175 to 5/100 (the "good faith" offers) or else 7/153 to 10/240 (the market price). 
 

FanSinceBoggs

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Does this make more sense for the Yankees?
 
(1) don't sign Ellsbury; instead, resign Granderson for 4/60 million and save approximately 100 million.
(2) the saved 100 million would go toward the Cano contract. 
 
I can't help but think that the Yankees screwed this up somehow.  Then again, maybe I'm biased.....
 
A better plan: The Yankees should have resigned Granderson for 4/60, kept away from Ellsbury, and increased their offer to Cano from 175 to the 200+ million mark.
 
Did the Yankees make a strategic error in thinking that 175 million for Cano would get it done, not anticipating that a team like the Mariners would come along and blow that offer out of the water?  The Yankees gambled that they could sign McCann, Ellsbury, and Cano.  Instead, they should have aimed for McCann, Granderson, and Cano.  
 
Did the Yankees get greedy in signing Ellsbury over Granderson?  That greed may have led to Cano's departure.
 

Sampo Gida

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In the short term, 2014 specifically, they lost a 6-8 WAR player who would have cost 3-4 million per WAR, about 1/2 the FA market value.  Their fears of what might be in 8-10 years blinded them to the benefits they would receive in the short term (paying 24 million for a player who produces 35-40 million).  While the goal of 189 is more achievable, the mandate of 189 and being a competitive team, or just a competitive team just became harder (especially when they spent an extra 18 million WAR by going after the most expensive options at C and CF and giving Jeter a raise)
 
Sure, the contract would not have been very productive at the end, but what would 24 million AAV be worth in 8 years, and would it be that painful if you had some cost controlled talent to subsidize it (and were under the LT threshold and collecting RS rebates)?  Isn't that the problem with Arods contract?  If they had several good cost controlled players providing another 15 WAR for well below market value (say 10 million in total salary for that 15 WAR)  they would have no problem.  But they have to go out and spend 75 -100 million for that 15 WAR now.
 
Not the end of the world if they recover the lost WAR with other free agents and then tackle the pitching, but as it stands now they look like a 500 team unless they get huge bounce back seasons from aging and declining players like Jeter, Teixeira, Ichiro, CC, Kuroda and add another starter and pieces for the pen. I would not bet on most of those players having big seasons.
 

Rough Carrigan

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As a Sox fan I love that he's not on the yankees any more.  I remember when he was this hot shot prospect talked about on line and then I finally got to see him swing the bat.  My heart sank.  He has a beautiful swing.  Absolutely beautiful.  And in the field, there are some plays that he makes in unorthodox ways, clearly different from how Pedroia goes after the same groundball.  But he makes the plays.  And I kind of liked that he upset some people by not doing many slide and plant then throw plays but still got the job done.
 
Almost as much as liking that a good player is off the Sox's biggest rival I like that I can now root for him without feeling ambivalent about it.
 

NYCSox

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Cano and Granderson wore out the Sox pitchers so I'm thrilled to see them leave. Now if they can unload Gardner and his 40 foul balls per AB that would make for a nice trifecta.
 

terrynever

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Interesting tidbit in Daily News today. A "published report" hinted Cano did not like playing for Girardi.
Cashman, when asked about it, said he never heard that before. Right. The guy knows everything that is going on with his team. So maybe it's possible that Girardi and Cashman decided after the season ended the team would be better off filling other holes in the lineup and not overpaying Cano.
The organization has already noted how Cano didn't stop TV ratings or ticket sales from falling off. It's easy to believe Girardi didn't like Cano's jogging tendencies on the bases. You could suggest that Girardi didn't want Cano serving as an example to the few younger players on the roster. Nunez is the only guy who might have picked up Cano's bad habits.
The Yankees will never diminish Cano's achievements on the field but they will suggest that he was A-Rod's disciple, hard-working and more interested in money and acceptance than winning.
Daily News baseball writer Bill Madden drew the parallel today between A-Rod signing with a last-place Texas team and wanting  traded two years later with Cano's money-first signing with Seattle.
This is how we run players out of town in New York.
 

Brickowski

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What I read is that Cano didn't like batting second. He wanted to bat 3rd or 4th to increase his value. That fact that Cano had a significantly higher OPS when batting second seems to have been lost on him.
 

rembrat

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I saw a preview of an interview Cano did in Spanish and the talk show host asked him if he felt disrespected by the Yankees offer and he very candidly said Yes and went on to say they (the Yankees) didn't have money. The clip ended there. I'm sure the English media will pick it up soon.