Carry on my Hayward Son: Gordon to Charlotte for 4 years, $120M

JakeRae

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Call me crazy (I’ve been called worse), but I have to believe that they look up in the rafters and see all the banners and that has to mean *something* to these guys. Maybe not enough to keep them here over a huge pile of money. But something.

The Celtics will be able to offer Tatum:

(1) Undisputed alpha role,
(2) A quality team around him,
(3) Championship history, and
(4) More money than anyone else.

I’m hoping that’s enough.
In 5 years, the only team that won’t be able to offer Tatum an undisputed alpha role is Dallas.
 

Average Game James

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We're a year away from Tatum being the type of guy players around the league want to team up with. He doesn't have the pull that the LeBrons and Durants of the world have yet, but he's well in his way.
My dream is in the next 12-18 months Beal demands out of Washington and wants to play with Tatum.
 

TripleOT

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Giving a guy with Hayward’s injury history 4/$120m is insane. The Celtics need to replace that salary slot with a MLE signing and move on.

Tatum and Brown should get you at least 50 wins a season. If Ainge can add a few pieces, they can get to 57-60 wins. The two Jays are playoff tested and should always be a tough out in any series.
 

tbb345

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My dream is in the next 12-18 months Beal demands out of Washington and wants to play with Tatum.
Which is another reason why getting someone like Turner or someone else in that salary range would have been incredibly helpful. A guy who is viewed as anything other than a massive negative who can help match Salaries for a player like Beal is very valuable. Especially when the only player we have in that range is a core member of the ream
 

JakeRae

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Which is another reason why getting someone like Turner or someone else in that salary range would have been incredibly helpful. A guy who is viewed as anything other than a massive negative who can help match Salaries for a player like Beal is very valuable. Especially when the only player we have in that range is a core member of the ream
People keep treating the fact that we don’t have bad contracts like it is a problem. I don’t get it. The Celtics have plenty of money committed now and in the future. The lack of bad contracts is a feature, not a bug.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Wait, now some people are worried that the Hornets effectively paying close to 40mm per for Gordon Hayward, who apparently wasn't happy being the fourth or worse option, means that the top option will leave in a few years?

I get that its a pandemic, we are all now even more online and this is the biggest sports thing going but we haven't even seen how the Celtics will round out the roster. Grading them now and worrying about the long term fallout seems way premature.

This is not ideal but the Cs losing Hayward is also not a disaster in any sense of the word.
 

Imbricus

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I don't get the doom mongering. I think the sportswriters will make a big deal out of this, yeah, but remember how they anointed Philly the team of destiny last year after it picked up Horford, and how that worked out? There are just too many unknowns about how teams will gel, and players will develop.

If Hayward really was unhappy with his role here, well, I kind of agree with the Boston Globe writer that recently said it wasn't the fault of the Celtics. He had a horrific injury. After recovering from it, for a while he played like crap. If anything, Brad was too generous giving him minutes. I remember the gamethreads, and people wondering why Brad kept throwing Hayward out there when couldn't elevate and looked like a ghost of his former self.

So now, if Danny did nothing further this off season, at the worst the kids will get a chance to develop. R. Williams, who is still learning the game, will hopefully take a big step forward. We'll see what we have in Nesmith. Romeo (fingers crossed) will pick up minutes and won't get hurt again. Hayward's departure might embolden Grant to take a bigger offensive role, and he may show us whether he can create shots near the basket. And the Celts will have some salary cap space, and thus flexibility, to add pieces later in the season when Ainge gets a better sense of what he's missing.

Hell, I'm jacked about the upcoming season. :)
 

tbb345

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People keep treating the fact that we don’t have bad contracts like it is a problem. I don’t get it. The Celtics have plenty of money committed now and in the future. The lack of bad contracts is a feature, not a bug.
I was responding to someone who said their dream is to trade for Beal.
Having someone like Myles Turner, who isn’t a core piece but has a decently high per year salary, is very valuable when trying to trade for stars with high salaries like Beal.
I don’t think that’s controversial or anything. That’s just the way it is with the way the NBA trade rules are set up
 

mauf

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Well, the C's were hoping to contend for a title. Realistically that is not happening this year or the next two years. And chances of Tatum leaving are higher if there is no path to a title. So...Charlotte and Indiana are screwed but they weren't positioned to be competitive anyways.

At this point, best case is that Kemba can play 30-40 games and playoffs well
Tatum will still sign his max extension in the next couple weeks. By the time he is up for his next contract, it will be a different team, and a different league. Next season’s team would be better with Myles Turner, but unless you think he was the piece that would vault the C’s into true title contention, I don’t think the events of the last 48 hours will loom large years from now.
 

lexrageorge

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Call me crazy (I’ve been called worse), but I have to believe that they look up in the rafters and see all the banners and that has to mean *something* to these guys. Maybe not enough to keep them here over a huge pile of money. But something.

The Celtics will be able to offer Tatum:

(1) Undisputed alpha role,
(2) A quality team around him,
(3) Championship history, and
(4) More money than anyone else.

I’m hoping that’s enough.
#1 is not in doubt, and neither is #4.

The problem is that they really need to be sure they can hit on #2. Giannis is likely to leave the Bucks for this very reason, despite the fact that they can offer more money than any other team, and despite being on a team that was on pace for 63 wins. Unfortunately, #3 is meaningless in today's NBA. As for the money, endorsement money matters as well, and that is where LA, NY, or Miami can beat Boston hands down.

Is it hopeless? Certainly not. I just don't understand why Ainge would not be able to make it a sign-and-trade and at least get a salary slot in return, as there is no downside to the Hornets.
 

DJnVa

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Someday some player will get an offer like that and turn it down, saying “The fact you’re tying up $39M in cap space shows me you have no idea how to run a franchise.”
 

scottyno

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With FVV and Hayward now officially off the board I believe this completes another year of the annual Knicks strike out on every major free agent they tried to sign, so the Hornets can take pride in the fact that they aren't the single worst run franchise in the league.
 

Jimbodandy

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With FVV and Hayward now officially off the board I believe this completes another year of the annual Knicks strike out on every major free agent they tried to sign, so the Hornets can take pride in the fact that they aren't the single worst run franchise in the league.
Knicks schadenfreude aside, there's something to be said for the fact that even they wouldn't go 4x30 for Hayward, nevermind tie up another 9 stretching someone to make it happen. I think that they deserve some credit for striking out here.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I don't get the doom mongering. I think the sportswriters will make a big deal out of this, yeah, but remember how they anointed Philly the team of destiny last year after it picked up Horford, and how that worked out? There are just too many unknowns about how teams will gel, and players will develop.

If Hayward really was unhappy with his role here, well, I kind of agree with the Boston Globe writer that recently said it wasn't the fault of the Celtics. He had a horrific injury. After recovering from it, for a while he played like crap. If anything, Brad was too generous giving him minutes. I remember the gamethreads, and people wondering why Brad kept throwing Hayward out there when couldn't elevate and looked like a ghost of his former self.

So now, if Danny did nothing further this off season, at the worst the kids will get a chance to develop. R. Williams, who is still learning the game, will hopefully take a big step forward. We'll see what we have in Nesmith. Romeo (fingers crossed) will pick up minutes and won't get hurt again. Hayward's departure might embolden Grant to take a bigger offensive role, and he may show us whether he can create shots near the basket. And the Celts will have some salary cap space, and thus flexibility, to add pieces later in the season when Ainge gets a better sense of what he's missing.

Hell, I'm jacked about the upcoming season. :)
Was going to post basically this. There was a lot of sturm-und-drang here last off-season when Al basically did the exact same thing (took a ridiculous contract to go somewhere else) and then by like 2 months into the season everyone was saying “thank god we didn’t re-sign Al.”

Of course it would have been better to get something back for Hayward but sign and trades continue to be the exception, not the rule. Reading the tea leaves I’d guess that the Indy talks weren't nearly as close as they were reported to be (it’s absolutely in Indy’s interest to tell reporters they made a great offer for Gordon but Danny was unreasonable/Hayward wanted more money).

Finally, for those saying the Celtics have taken a step back talent-wise, I’m just not sure that’s true. As of now, Philly is worse or the same as they were last year. Toronto has basically stood pat. Same with the Heat. The Bucks are maybe slightly better, but they were already really good and that team rides and falls with Giannis regardless. The Nets are an open question this year but that was always going to be the case. At the end of the day, and not through any fault of his own, Hayward just didn’t provide the Celtics much value so it’s a little odd to me for people to be arguing that his departure somehow makes the Celtics significantly worse.
 

luckiestman

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Guys, what if Romeo is good? Relax...

Also, I’m retrospectively lol @ the 4/80, 4/100 discussion.

We are so bad at this.
 

TripleOT

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The Celtics future the next few seasons is based on how much better Tatum and Brown get. Two great young wings, with tons of deep playoff experience and ridiculous work ethics.

Filling up the roster with complementary vet pieces, while draftees grow into their roles, with Tatum and Brown driving it, is the future of this team.
 

TripleOT

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Guys, what if Romeo is good? Relax...

Also, I’m retrospectively lol @ the 4/80, 4/100 discussion.

We are so bad at this.
The ink on that Charlotte contract won’t have time to dry before it’s considered a cap killer.

My guess was 4/$100 would have been the top range for GH. The extra $5m a year is an incentive to waste the rest of his career struggling to play .500 ball in Charlotte
 

BaseballJones

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In the 2022-23 season...

Tatum will be an perennial MVP candidate.
Brown will be a perennial all-star.
Nesmith will be an instant offense 15 ppg sniper off the bench.
Pritchard will be a solid starting point guard able to give you 25 on a given night, but will average more like 13 points and 8 assists.
Langford will be a lockdown defensive wing able to slash for double-digit points.

And they'll have solid vets in key roles like center and off the bench.

That team, if it breaks like that (and it's not crazy), would be a very very very very tough team for anyone else in the league to handle.
 

slamminsammya

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Well, the C's were hoping to contend for a title. Realistically that is not happening this year or the next two years. And chances of Tatum leaving are higher if there is no path to a title. So...Charlotte and Indiana are screwed but they weren't positioned to be competitive anyways.

At this point, best case is that Kemba can play 30-40 games and playoffs well
This is the same team that made game 6 of the eastern conference finals that they could have won and you are saying they won't contend for a title for two years? Care to explain yourself?
 

Jimbodandy

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Fwiw, Pacers Digest forum is pretty stoked that the Celtics ended up with nothing in this deal (at least for now). They really seem to dislike Danny.
 

nighthob

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I misunderstood who you were referring to and of course you are correct that letting Holiday kill this deal was malfeasance on Pritchard's part. But he's not as free as Danny to make a mistake, and given public sentiment in Indiana, he felt he needed what they saw as a clear win in this trade.
They were getting a clear win, the local hero. At the cost of shitty contracts and a backup PG. But that wasn't enough for Pritchard, who has done this at every stop. This isn't He's not allowed to make mistakes in Indiana!!! thing. Because he just made a made a huge mistake. This is Pritchard's pathological need to be seen as fleecing everyone in every trade.
 

The Gray Eagle

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The worst case scenario for the Celtics is not Hayward leaving for nothing, it was the Celtics signing him for 4 more years.

I like him and he'll probably be good for maybe 2 of those 4 years. But he also might never be consistently good again. Buying his age 31-34 seasons at over $20 million per would have been the worst case for Boston.
 

PedroKsBambino

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They were getting a clear win, the local hero. At the cost of shitty contracts and a backup PG. But that wasn't enough for Pritchard, who has done this at every stop. This isn't He's not allowed to make mistakes in Indiana!!! thing. Because he just made a made a huge mistake. This is Pritchard's pathological need to be seen as fleecing everyone in every trade.
To be clear, we're just guessing at who was asking for what. But my guess would also be that Pritchard made the bigger mistake, as it's a very rare opportunity for IND to add a guy like Hayward in FA whereas Danny still had the chance of re-signing him or pulling of a S&T. Not great job by either of them, but pretty tough to defend Pritchard here.
 

scottyno

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Fwiw, Pacers Digest forum is pretty stoked that the Celtics ended up with nothing in this deal (at least for now). They really seem to dislike Danny.
Someone should tell them that they ended up with nothing too and that the celtics are way closer to actually winning anything than they are.
 

BaseballJones

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Prefer a decent rim protector that's still young? Go with Noel (1.5 blocks in just 18 minutes a game).
Prefer a bigger guy with a decent shot that has history with Boston? Go with Baynes (11.5 points a game).
Prefer a bit of a do-it-all center? Go with Ibaka (38.5% from three, 15.4 points, 8.2 rebounds).
Prefer a really good rebounder who can't do much else? Go with T Thompson (10.1 rebounds a game).

I think Ibaka would be a great get actually. Seven-footer who can shoot pretty well and rebound pretty well and isn't an abject disaster on defense. Though...really...he isn't very good on that end. But he's big enough to bang with some of the bigger guys in the league. I dunno, we aren't talking about adding an all-star player at this point.
 

nighthob

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In the 2022-23 season...

Tatum will be an perennial MVP candidate.
Brown will be a perennial all-star.
Nesmith will be an instant offense 15 ppg sniper off the bench.
Pritchard will be a solid starting point guard able to give you 25 on a given night, but will average more like 13 points and 8 assists.
Langford will be a lockdown defensive wing able to slash for double-digit points.

And they'll have solid vets in key roles like center and off the bench.

That team, if it breaks like that (and it's not crazy), would be a very very very very tough team for anyone else in the league to handle.
If Pritchard is ever Boston's starting PG it's because Tatum has taken a leap into top 10 all time performance and Brown is a top 15 player. Otherwise he's a perfectly good backup PG candidate that you don't want starting games unless the guy in front of him is injured.
 

Salem's Lot

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In the 2022-23 season...

Tatum will be an perennial MVP candidate.
Brown will be a perennial all-star.
Nesmith will be an instant offense 15 ppg sniper off the bench.
Pritchard will be a solid starting point guard able to give you 25 on a given night, but will average more like 13 points and 8 assists.
Langford will be a lockdown defensive wing able to slash for double-digit points.

And they'll have solid vets in key roles like center and off the bench.

That team, if it breaks like that (and it's not crazy), would be a very very very very tough team for anyone else in the league to handle.
And Tatum and Brown will want to leave because the weather sucks, or the media sucks, or for some other reason. Which is why it’s so tough to win in this league unless you’re in LA or Miami.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Someone should tell them that they ended up with nothing too and that the celtics are way closer to actually winning anything than they are.
No kidding. How many banners are the freakin’ Pacers hanging from the rafters these days?? Talk about your Losers’ Lament. You just failed to bring a local hero home. GJGE.
 

Jimbodandy

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Someone should tell them that they ended up with nothing too and that the celtics are way closer to actually winning anything than they are.
I think that they know that, but they're still glad that someone else might be unhappy. It reminds me of the time that a 7 series BMW blew by me on the pike and fishtailed and clipped the guardrail. I was driving a Tercel with 120K miles and a hole in the muffler, but I was still glad at the moment not to be that fucking guy.
 
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For the record, the title of this thread is fantastic! Hot take alert: I think Hayward will have a similar post-Celtics level of success as Horford is having.
 

tbb345

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They were getting a clear win, the local hero. At the cost of shitty contracts and a backup PG. But that wasn't enough for Pritchard, who has done this at every stop. This isn't He's not allowed to make mistakes in Indiana!!! thing. Because he just made a made a huge mistake. This is Pritchard's pathological need to be seen as fleecing everyone in every trade.
Youve mentioned this more than a few times, when did this start? I ask because that Paul George trade was universally seen as an awful trade for Pritchard and he was widely ridiculed. Did this pathological need, as you describe it, arise because of that PG trade?
 

nighthob

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He was this way in Portland too, or have you forgotten his execrable You got Pritchslapped thing? He had zero choices where Paul George was concerned, George demanded out. It's hard to fleece other GMs when the player in question has stated that he's leaving.
 

EvilEmpire

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They were getting a clear win, the local hero. At the cost of shitty contracts and a backup PG. But that wasn't enough for Pritchard, who has done this at every stop. This isn't He's not allowed to make mistakes in Indiana!!! thing. Because he just made a made a huge mistake. This is Pritchard's pathological need to be seen as fleecing everyone in every trade.
Eh. Is giving up assets to sign oft-injured Heyward to a big contract really a huge mistake? Seems like Pritchard may have dodged a bullet. That Charlotte deal doesn't look good.

I think the value of a local boy coming home is overrated. Especially if there is a decent chance of age/injury related decline and he can't ball out the way he used to.
 

nighthob

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I mean they did agree on the deal some time ago given the Hayward's decision to move home during the hiatus. So at the very least Mark Bartelstein is going to be really pissed at Pritchard for essentially reneging.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Decent article on how signing GH probably puts CHA back on the .500 cycle - which, ironically, was the reason the said they couldn't re-sign Kemba here: https://tv5.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/30359889/nba-free-agency-gordon-hayward-big-move-means-boston-celtics-charlotte-hornets

I don't think losing the salary slot is to big of a deal, assuming the $ Wyc saved now can be used over the next few years. I don't think DA is losing any sleep over it. And yes GH got an insane K, but he'll have plenty of time to play video games in his lengthy off-seasons.6
 

nighthob

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I can think of 120 million reasons he won't be too upset.
I can think of a couple reasons that Hayward's going to be unhappy, he clearly wanted to play for his home team, almost certainly reached a wink wink agreement with them during the hiatus given that he and his family moved back home. And now rather than getting to play in front of the home team and go home to his family every night, he's living in an apartment in Charlotte.

And, yes, Bartelstein's going to be pissed that a GM backed out of a deal on him after he went through all this. Because if he hadn't already had an offer in hand from the Pacers then he likely has Hayward pick up the option on and works out a trade to a desired location.
 

Caspir

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Unless they ever looked up at the ceiling or asked Danny, or Heinsohn, or Cousy, or Pierce or any of the other Celtics legends I'm sure they've had in to talk to the team about what it means to be a Celtic.
Unfortunately Tommy is gone. Paul Pierce (one of my three favorite players of all time) is not viewed as a legend by this generation of players, and nobody cares what an old white guy who played a bunch of other white guys in the 50’s thinks about hoops. Danny isn’t a legend, he’s management. Looking in the rafters and seeing banners older than your parents is not enticing, I’m sorry. There is no mystique and aura, and that’s alright. If Tatum is who we think he is, he can attract others, but that requires banners that aren’t old enough to be the grandparents of the players on the court. I don’t think it’s a point of contention to acknowledge that.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I can think of a couple reasons that Hayward's going to be unhappy, he clearly wanted to play for his home team, almost certainly reached a wink wink agreement with them during the hiatus given that he and his family moved back home. And now rather than getting to play in front of the home team and go home to his family every night, he's living in an apartment in Charlotte.

And, yes, Bartelstein's going to be pissed that a GM backed out of a deal on him after he went through all this. Because if he hadn't already had an offer in hand from the Pacers then he likely has Hayward pick up the option on and works out a trade to a desired location.
Hayward picked Charlotte. No one forced him to sign there. He could have waited a few days to see if Boston and Indiana worked things out. He took the money. This was his choice.

Hayward is not a victim.
 

nighthob

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Hayward picked Charlotte. No one forced him to sign there. He could have waited a few days to see if Boston and Indiana worked things out. He took the money. This was his choice.

Hayward is not a victim.
What in the name of tarnation are you babbling about? No one's saying that anyone's a fucking victim. But Hayward ain't going to be overjoyed about the Pacers backing out of their deal with him. If he'd known that the Pacers were going to welch I'm pretty certain that the family would have held off moving until they knew his next destination.

And, yeah, I don't think that Mark Bartelstein will be returning phone calls to Pritchard anytime soon, because no matter what the financial results he now knows absolutely that Pritchard can't be trusted to keep his word.
 

Cesar Crespo

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What in the name of tarnation are you babbling about? No one's saying that anyone's a fucking victim. But Hayward ain't going to be overjoyed about the Pacers backing out of their deal with him. If he'd known that the Pacers were going to welch I'm pretty certain that the family would have held off moving until they knew his next destination.

And, yeah, I don't think that Mark Bartelstein will be returning phone calls to Pritchard anytime soon, because no matter what the financial results he now knows absolutely that Pritchard can't be trusted to keep his word.
The Pacers didn't back out. You can make the argument Hayward backed out. You just have this raging hatred for Pritchard and it's obvious.
 

nighthob

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Clearly the Haywards decided that they wanted to pack up stakes and move everything to Indianapolis for a few months before going house hunting in a new market. Clearly there never was a handshake deal between the parties and when Kyrie texted people in December of 2018 that he and Brooklyn had reached an agreement he was lying to people. Clearly you're the only rational person in existence. :eyeroll:
 

reggiecleveland

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The ink on that Charlotte contract won’t have time to dry before it’s considered a cap killer.

My guess was 4/$100 would have been the top range for GH. The extra $5m a year is an incentive to waste the rest of his career struggling to play .500 ball in Charlotte
That's why "The Last Dance" annoyed the shit out of me. MJ (and lesser extent Phil) just trashing Krause when MJ has been a disaster, and Phil with the Knicks was almost as bad.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Clearly the Haywards decided that they wanted to pack up stakes and move everything to Indianapolis for a few months before going house hunting in a new market. Clearly there never was a handshake deal between the parties and when Kyrie texted people in December of 2018 that he and Brooklyn had reached an agreement he was lying to people. Clearly you're the only rational person in existence. :eyeroll:
Indiana has no cap space. If he and his agent thought it was a done deal, they are stupid. There was nothing to agree to. It was not in Pritchard's hands. He could only attempt to make a deal.

Maybe they are blaming Danny Ainge for being unreasonable in his trade demands. :eyeroll: