Carry on my Hayward Son: Gordon to Charlotte for 4 years, $120M

bosockboy

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I’ll state the go to sour grapes line, but true. We got to the ECF without Hayward.

This team will be built around a Jordan/Pippen dynamic with Tatum and Brown with veterans sprinkled around them.
 

bosockboy

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There always seems to be a clear, objective reason — not to mention the slew of hypothetical theories — why these individual major trade/signing pursuits since the Nets deal that we and the media spend so much time discussing keep failing to come to fruition.

But there's only one constant.
Well the Kyrie trade was a monster. But yes, the moniker Trader Danny is as dead as disco.
 

scottyno

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There always seems to be a clear, objective reason — not to mention the slew of hypothetical theories — why these individual major trade/signing pursuits since the Nets deal that we and the media spend so much time discussing keep failing to come to fruition.

But there's only one constant.
Is it the guy that's signed 3 max players and made 2 huge trades since the nets deal?
 

lexrageorge

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Why? Why wouldn’t Tatum love being the undisputed alpha with a very good team with a legendary franchise making absolute NBA max dollars?
The question is whether that very good team has a real shot of true title contention, as opposed to periodic appearances in the Conference Finals. The latter will not be good enough for Tatum, who will be able to pick his destination once his 2nd contract expires.
 

Mystic Merlin

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There always seems to be a clear, objective reason — not to mention the slew of hypothetical theories — why these individual major trade/signing pursuits since the Nets deal that we and the media spend so much time discussing keep failing to come to fruition.

But there's only one constant.
How many aborted trades/signings have there been?

If anything the trend has been the opposite. Horford would be an ironic choice since their initially signing him was itself a get, and the contract Philly gave him is a total albatross. Hayward? They signed Hayward, and he left for another huge contract after an aborted tenure with the C’s. Kyrie? He did trade for Kyrie and correctly moved on....then acquired Kemba.
 

Zincman

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My take is that Hayward wanted to and thought he was going to Indiana but as the week dragged on Danny and Pritchard couldn't come to an agreement probably because they couldn't agree on the value of the players being discussed. Danny was unwilling to hamstring the Celts with negative assets (Turner and Buckets) and Pritchard was a hard pass on Warren. When it became clear to GH that his dream deal wasn't going to happen, he jumped at the money in Charlotte. So who is the villain in this story. Not Danny who had very few options especially if he believed the Indy deal was a poison pill for the C's. Certainly not Hayward who was at the mercy of the negotiations between Danny and Pritchard. And maybe not even Pritchard who was unwilling to give away what he regarded as top assets in addition to worrying about public sentiment which in Indiana had cast the C's as ruthless predators out to fleece the Pacers. Lets hope Danny finds a silver lining to this saga and makes some moves that improve us.
 

benhogan

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Why? Why wouldn’t Tatum love being the undisputed alpha with a very good team with a legendary franchise making absolute NBA max dollars?
Tatum and Brown are fine...I could have sworn they made it to the EC Finals without GH this year (and 2 seasons ago)

Tatum and Brown aren't close to being finished players.
 

PedroKsBambino

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This does not rule out a sign and trade.

You only have to go way back to last year when the Celtics had cap space to sign Kemba, but still signed and traded Rozier for Kemba and a 2nd.
Agreed---saying they can do it without Celtics is absolutely the right strategy for Hornets regardless of whether that's actually their preference.

I think the question for Celtics is how much you value the TPE-----would you give a 2nd just to get the TPE (I think yes, personally)? Would you hold the line that they should give you an asset for doing the S&T and saving them Batum? In my mind he's a sunk cost but I guess if they will give yo usomething useful you try.
 

Marbleheader

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We're a year away from Tatum being the type of guy players around the league want to team up with. He doesn't have the pull that the LeBrons and Durants of the world have yet, but he's well in his way.
 

The Social Chair

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The question is whether that very good team has a real shot of true title contention, as opposed to periodic appearances in the Conference Finals. The latter will not be good enough for Tatum, who will be able to pick his destination once his 2nd contract expires.
+ entering free agency after your 2nd contract is turning into a rite of passage. Dame Lillard is the outlier.
 

mcpickl

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There always seems to be a clear, objective reason — not to mention the slew of hypothetical theories — why these individual major trade/signing pursuits since the Nets deal that we and the media spend so much time discussing keep failing to come to fruition.

But there's only one constant.
He...he signed Kemba to a max deal last offseason.
 

bankshot1

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Tatum and Brown are fine...I could have sworn they made it to the EC Finals without GH this year (and 2 seasons ago)

Tatum and Brown aren't close to being finished players.
Exactly. Gordo was more promise than delivery for the past 3 years. The cap stuff is what it is, I posted in the other thread this open PT for development to get young guys (Romeo, TL, GW, Nesmith) game ready for the post-season. We are reliant on Kemba being healthy. But this is not a disaster.
 

mcpickl

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Agreed---saying they can do it without Celtics is absolutely the right strategy for Hornets regardless of whether that's actually their preference.

I think the question for Celtics is how much you value the TPE-----would you give a 2nd just to get the TPE (I think yes, personally)? Would you hold the line that they should give you an asset for doing the S&T and saving them Batum? In my mind he's a sunk cost but I guess if they will give yo usomething useful you try.
100%

Say as a hypothetical, the Celtics convinced Bogdan Bogdanovic to sign here. He tells Sacramento, S&T me to Boston or I'm going to Atlanta. You trade one of the seconds you got in the 30th pick trade to Charlotte to S&T Hayward and get a TPE. Trade the other second from that deal to Sacramento for Bogdanovic, and he fits into the TPE so Kings don't have to take back any money.

You'd end up trading the 30th pick and Kanter for Bogdanovic, and still have a smaller TPE left over if needed.
 
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nighthob

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My take is that Hayward wanted to and thought he was going to Indiana but as the week dragged on Danny and Pritchard couldn't come to an agreement probably because they couldn't agree on the value of the players being discussed. Danny was unwilling to hamstring the Celts with negative assets (Turner and Buckets) and Pritchard was a hard pass on Warren. When it became clear to GH that his dream deal wasn't going to happen, he jumped at the money in Charlotte. So who is the villain in this story. Not Danny who had very few options especially if he believed the Indy deal was a poison pill for the C's. Certainly not Hayward who was at the mercy of the negotiations between Danny and Pritchard. And maybe not even Pritchard who was unwilling to give away what he regarded as top assets in addition to worrying about public sentiment which in Indiana had cast the C's as ruthless predators out to fleece the Pacers. Lets hope Danny finds a silver lining to this saga and makes some moves that improve us.
Pritchard wasn't willing to give up a backup PG to get Hayward. I imagine his PR flunky's out doing double duty today to blame this on others.
 

tbb345

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Exactly. Gordo was more promise than delivery for the past 3 years. The cap stuff is what it is, I posted in the other thread this open PT for development to get young guys (Romeo, TL, GW, Nesmith) game ready for the post-season. We are reliant on Kemba being healthy. But this is not a disaster.
But “the cap Stuff is what it is” is the main reason why this is such a negative. The Celtics lost this salary slot with (if what’s being reported right now is correct) getting nothing in return, not even a TPE.
This isn’t a sky is falling scenario but it’s also not nearly as rosy as this post suggests. This was a bad outcome and severely hurts our title chances for next year. Maybe I’m being too negative but this is a real bummer
 

nighthob

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The question is whether that very good team has a real shot of true title contention, as opposed to periodic appearances in the Conference Finals. The latter will not be good enough for Tatum, who will be able to pick his destination once his 2nd contract expires.
By periodic do you mean basically every year?
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Exactly. Gordo was more promise than delivery for the past 3 years. The cap stuff is what it is, I posted in the other thread this open PT for development to get young guys (Romeo, TL, GW, Nesmith) game ready for the post-season. We are reliant on Kemba being healthy. But this is not a disaster.
Seriously. Can we let them play the games? No one had Miami going to the finals at the beginning of last season, but Bam has a big growth year and a late lotto pick in Herro plays closer to his ceiling than his floor. What if Langford is healthy and begins hitting jump shots? Or Nesmith hits 40% from 3? Or the light bulb fully goes on for Time Lord? None of those is preposterous. And that’s without the Js taking another step forward.
 

bankshot1

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But “the cap Stuff is what it is” is the main reason why this is such a negative. The Celtics lost this salary slot with (if what’s being reported right now is correct) getting nothing in return, not even a TPE.
This isn’t a sky is falling scenario but it’s also not nearly as rosy as this post suggests. This was a bad outcome and severely hurts our title chances for next year. Maybe I’m being too negative but this is a real bummer
Spilled milk or spoiled milk. I figure Ainge knew the risk of getting stiffed on GH walking versus taking assets he didn't want. Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing the young guys get minutes in the regular season and develop. The risk on this team seems mostly Kemba's knees and or having a PG back-up good enough to make the offense work. I'm going keg's half-full and they're going to be a fun team to watch except when they wear those new unis.
 

PedroKsBambino

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They'll add a vet or two for sure.

In terms of uspside for them, e.g. title contention, I think there's two paths. One is that Tatum and/or Brown steps up another level...quite possible in each case. The other, not inconsistent with the first occuring, is that one or more of Romeo, TL, Grant, Nesmith becomes a 25-30 minute a game good rotiation player next year. And arguably a third is that healthy Kemba shows up for hte playoffs. May well be none of those happen, but they have a lot of pieces with potential.
 

BaseballJones

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The question is whether that very good team has a real shot of true title contention, as opposed to periodic appearances in the Conference Finals. The latter will not be good enough for Tatum, who will be able to pick his destination once his 2nd contract expires.
Maybe Tatum should get better then. If JB is an all star, and Tatum becomes a top 5 player, they can have a handful of quality players around that and that should be enough to be a regular finals/title contender. If Tatum doesn’t grow into mega stardom though, and chooses to leave... well... in part that’s on him. Because he absolutely has the tools to be a top five megastar capable of leading a team to a title.
 

Zincman

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Pritchard wasn't willing to give up a backup PG to get Hayward. I imagine his PR flunky's out doing double duty today to blame this on others.
That's an easy take from our POV but it is reasonable to think that this was merely a disagreement over the value of the players discussed. You can call Warren a backup PG but that's not clearly how Indy sees him. They likely value Turner more than we do because he fits with them much better than he does with us. What this deal really needed was an impartial mediator who could see both POVs and get a deal done. Its clear Danny and Pritchard weren't going to be able to do it.
 

RedOctober3829

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They'll add a vet or two for sure.

In terms of uspside for them, e.g. title contention, I think there's two paths. One is that Tatum and/or Brown steps up another level...quite possible in each case. The other, not inconsistent with the first occuring, is that one or more of Romeo, TL, Grant, Nesmith becomes a 25-30 minute a game good rotiation player next year. And arguably a third is that healthy Kemba shows up for hte playoffs. May well be none of those happen, but they have a lot of pieces with potential.
Yeah there is definitely paths to getting out of the East. Tatum/Brown will give us more that is for sure. Sign a couple of vet role guys and hope the young bench guys develop. It’s harder now, but can be done.
 

Cesar Crespo

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They'll add a vet or two for sure.

In terms of uspside for them, e.g. title contention, I think there's two paths. One is that Tatum and/or Brown steps up another level...quite possible in each case. The other, not inconsistent with the first occuring, is that one or more of Romeo, TL, Grant, Nesmith becomes a 25-30 minute a game good rotiation player next year. And arguably a third is that healthy Kemba shows up for hte playoffs. May well be none of those happen, but they have a lot of pieces with potential.
I think the most likely path is the 2nd, even if Tatum and Brown do elevate their game. They need one of their young players to emerge into a decent player, one worthy of re-signing.
 

nighthob

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That's an easy take from our POV but it is reasonable to think that this was merely a disagreement over the value of the players discussed. You can call Warren a backup PG but that's not clearly how Indy sees him. They likely value Turner more than we do because he fits with them much better than he does with us. What this deal really needed was an impartial mediator who could see both POVs and get a deal done. Its clear Danny and Pritchard weren't going to be able to do it.
I'm not talking about TJ Warren, he's a F. I was discussing Aaron Holiday, who was also considered off limits in trade discussions per the article posted in the other thread. The Haywards were clearly anticipating Gordo's signing there months ago, hence their move. But at the end of the day Pritchard held firm to Boston fixing his payroll problems and giving them Hayward. Now they're free to trade that awesome asset for the king's ransom he's undoubtedly worth. (Which dollars to doughnuts ends up being the Knicks for a future #2.)
 

nighthob

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That Irving trade is where everything went wrong, and things have kept going wrong since. Danny might want to consider calling in an exorcist to spiritually cleanse the franchise. ;)
 

lovegtm

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The salary slot isn’t as big a deal as it initially appears. They can use the MLE and also take someone into Kanter’s trade exception at some point, which is about $14M worth of contracts.
 

Cesar Crespo

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The salary slot isn’t as big a deal as it initially appears. They can use the MLE and also take someone into Kanter’s trade exception at some point, which is about $14M worth of contracts.
If they got a TPE in a S&T, couldn't they be in the running for Bogdan? That's what bugs me the most.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think it's more the salary slot going forward than anything else. But as was discussed a bunch here, the real question going forward is NBA economics/tax level and what the owners are willing to pay anyway
 

Caspir

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Why? Why wouldn’t Tatum love being the undisputed alpha with a very good team with a legendary franchise making absolute NBA max dollars?
I think Tatum will be here long term because I think (hope?) they’ll eventually figure it out and get a title with him, but I do not believe the Celtics are a “legendary” franchise to anyone under 30. They’re a team that’s won one title in most of these guy’s lifetimes and then got knocked out by Lebron a bunch of times. Tatum isn’t staying here because they’re some gold standard franchise.
 

Arroyo Con Frijoles

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This obviously isn't a disaster in any absolute sense since JT JB and Smart is still a good core, but relative to all the ways this could go, this is definitely the worst. I also think the rush to get to "yeah, well we don't need him anyway!" is a little childish. Boston is a worse team today than they were yesterday. Not the end of the world, hopefully Danny can find something interesting.

In a bigger picture it's really too bad it went this way with Gordo. I think it's easy to forget how good he was when he signed.
 

BaseballJones

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I think Tatum will be here long term because I think (hope?) they’ll eventually figure it out and get a title with him, but I do not believe the Celtics are a “legendary” franchise to anyone under 30. They’re a team that’s won one title in most of these guy’s lifetimes and then got knocked out by Lebron a bunch of times. Tatum isn’t staying here because they’re some gold standard franchise.
Call me crazy (I’ve been called worse), but I have to believe that they look up in the rafters and see all the banners and that has to mean *something* to these guys. Maybe not enough to keep them here over a huge pile of money. But something.

The Celtics will be able to offer Tatum:

(1) Undisputed alpha role,
(2) A quality team around him,
(3) Championship history, and
(4) More money than anyone else.

I’m hoping that’s enough.
 

scottyno

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I think Tatum will be here long term because I think (hope?) they’ll eventually figure it out and get a title with him, but I do not believe the Celtics are a “legendary” franchise to anyone under 30. They’re a team that’s won one title in most of these guy’s lifetimes and then got knocked out by Lebron a bunch of times. Tatum isn’t staying here because they’re some gold standard franchise.
Unless they ever looked up at the ceiling or asked Danny, or Heinsohn, or Cousy, or Pierce or any of the other Celtics legends I'm sure they've had in to talk to the team about what it means to be a Celtic.
 

Jimbodandy

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True, one year of the last four they failed to reach the conference finals. And the odds are that they get there again this year.
Also the three out of four years that they went to the conference finals included the developmental years of their best players. These guys are coming off a 75% conference finals rate when they weren't old enough to rent a car. They're waltzing into their primes now.
 

Zincman

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I'm not talking about TJ Warren, he's a F. I was discussing Aaron Holiday, who was also considered off limits in trade discussions per the article posted in the other thread. The Haywards were clearly anticipating Gordo's signing there months ago, hence their move. But at the end of the day Pritchard held firm to Boston fixing his payroll problems and giving them Hayward. Now they're free to trade that awesome asset for the king's ransom he's undoubtedly worth. (Which dollars to doughnuts ends up being the Knicks for a future #2.)
I misunderstood who you were referring to and of course you are correct that letting Holiday kill this deal was malfeasance on Pritchard's part. But he's not as free as Danny to make a mistake, and given public sentiment in Indiana, he felt he needed what they saw as a clear win in this trade.