So? Love won't give you a great first step on dribble drives. He's a spot up shooter/high post player. I'd rather go after the next Kahwi in the draft and go from there.Replace "Celtics" with "No team"......then do something about the ain't.
The Spurs system is excellent.....so is playing off 4 excellent iso scorers in Duncan, Manu, Parker and Kawhi. Much of their ball movement begins with dribble drive penetration that creates angles.....those angles aren't there without a successful first step.
Can Love Be a Centerpiece of a Champion?
- Thread starter moly99
- Start date
Brickowski said:
No, but saying that the Spurs are an example of how you don't need a player who draws doubles is picking out a near impossible to replicate scenario. They don't draw doubles because they have three hall of famers on the court with one of the top young players in the league, there are at least 4 All-Star caliber players on the floor for them most of the time, surrounded by good shooters, or rebounders and passers.
If they didn't have one of those guys then Duncan would be doubled whenever he touched it in the post.
More importantly, where is there any evidence that Love can't play in that offensive system? If anything he would excel. He's a knockdown shooter, a good passer, and can play in the high post, and is very efficient right now as the only scorer in a terrible offense.
I'm not a huge fan of Love, but some of the criticisms of his game on the last few pages are ridiculous.
He's 6th in the league among PF in AST% the last three seasons. (I counted Gasol and Diaw as PF, but not Durant so could be as high as 4th or low as 7th depending how you define it). By just about any metric you pick he is one of the 5 or so best Offensive players in the league.
He's a good passer, anyone saying differently has never watched him play, the numbers back it up, putting up those kind of AST% on a team with abysmal scoring options at the other 4 positions is impressive.
Cellar-Door said:
This is actually pretty comparable to what the Celtics did in 2008 (with Rondo playing the Leonard "heist" role). Getting the supporting talent is a lot harder though when all three of your top guys are on max deals. Given that the current Celtics don't even have a Pierce caliber player to start with, I agree in entirety with your statement.
I think I've said on multiple occasions that Love is an excellent offensive player. It's a timing issue. Love will make them better, but not better enough, and he'll cost too many draft picks and too much cap space that could be used to acquire a supporting cast (or with luck, another young star). The opportunity cost is unacceptable IMHO, and so is the uncertainty as to whether or not he'll stay past his next ETO.
Why not, if he wants to win? LeBron already has more money than God. Plus there are rumors out there that the Clips are interested, although they would definitely have to dump some salary if LeBron demands more than the MLE.
With Wade on the decline it will be difficult (although by no means impossible) for LeBron to win another title in Miami, although Lowry could help (assuming he's willing to sign with the Heat for the MLE).
Love can absolutely be the focal point of a title team. He needs help. Well breaking freaking news so do durant lebron MJ russell wilt magic etc etc. Hes an elite player who rebounds and shoots 3s at an elite level. Can he win it on his own? Nope. If you surround him with another star and a good supporting cast you can absolutely come out of the east in the next couple years, no matter how many precious draft picks you have to surrender to acquire him.
Finding a super star is very difficult. Getting a supporting cast is like 20% of that effort. Marginal players are available in trade and in free agency all the time. True stars are not found often.Brickowski said:
He also saved 6% of his salary on over 50 of the 82 games......the 41 games in Cleveland he'd be taxed on plus the tax on road games in states with no state tax. Quick math is around $1.3m saved by going to Miami......I don't recall how much he left on table maybe $2-3m? When all is said and done LeBron sacrificed a mill or two a year in salary......not $18m per.Brickowski said:
a pt not being made is loves age. Its rare you can acquire a player of loves caliber at his age 25. Youll have him for 7 years of his prime.
No, you'll have Love until he exercises his ETO (which he will almost certainly exercise if Ainge can't put together a contending team around him).
Im still waiting for the first player to turn down bird right options w a team. Hell take his 5yr max deal after this season so my fault 6years. No chance hed walk for 4 yrs and 23mil less
Im annoyed with you Brick. What do you want to do? Keep drafting in the lottery like the bobcats and cross our fingers we hit? You have a legit chance to acquire a star you do it. Period. End of discussion.
No, I want to take a chance with my two picks in this year's very deep draft and then go after a star in 2015 or 2016.
mcpickl said:
That's certainly true, and certainly true that the money hit in Miami wasn't that severe. I could see it happening if he has some meeting with a money guy and/or a PR guy, and/or a "branding" guy or whatever who lay out a strategy that being in L.A./winning more titles/getting the publicity coup for being "all about titles, not money" will lead to endorsement increases that would offset his salary decrease. I'm not saying that would happen, god knows James is making more endorsements now than one can imagine, but it's conceivable.
As for Love, I just have to shake my head and wonder if people have seen the guy play. He's not a good passer, he's a first rate passer, great scorer, and not nearly as bad on D as people say. And this draft ain't that great. Take the star....always take the star.
Yeah those guys are lining up to play in Boston. It's a miracle someone like Love is actually interested in coming here. That isn't happening very often.Brickowski said:
Here's a fun game.Brickowski said:
What was the last team to win the Championship without one of their 3 best players being drafted in the top 3?
What if we push it out to drafted in the top 5?
Kevin Love wasn't drafted in the top 3 either (he was no. 5) so I guess the Celtics won't win a championship with him, unless they can acquire a "top 3" player without having any lottery picks or cap space after what they gave up to acquire him. Maybe they can sign the corpse of Pau Gasol (a no. 3 pick) as a free agent to go along with Love, so that they can fit your model.
The correct answer is the 2008 Celtics.Brickowski said:
For top 5 the correct answer is the 1982 76ers (kind of cheating since Moses went to the ABA first).
The point was that most successful championship teams have players who are from the top of the draft and still in their prime.
What they don't necessarily have is guys like that they drafted.
We are unlikely to get a top 5 pick (only possibilities are our pick next year or maybe one of the Brooklyn picks, which I doubt since they'll spend their way out of the bottom 5.)
The problem with the "there is always someone available next year strategy, is that it often isn't really true. That person has to be either willing to sign here, or being traded with multiple years on their deal (pretty rare for a true star).
Additionally many of our pieces become less valuable as time goes on. Sully and Olynyk lose value with less time on their contracts (barring a big breakout), The 6 and 17 are probably worth more to a team when they can pick anyone they want then when it is a player with one year down on his contract unless it turns out to be a steal.
As I come around on the possibility of a Love trade, it is for this reason: Guys like Love even with his defensive deficiencies are one of the hardest commodities to find, it usually takes a top 5 draft pick to get them and even then the vast majority of those top 5 picks never end up at his level. With the possibility to get him at 25, and indications that he is willing to re-sign after his opt-out I think you have to take that.
I don't want to be an insulting jerk, so I'll restrict myself to asking what people are looking for in a Love trade.
If the Celtics trade for Love and end up as the 5th-8th seed every year for the next 4 years and then rebuild again is that an acceptable result for you?
If the Celtics trade for Love and end up as the 5th-8th seed every year for the next 4 years and then rebuild again is that an acceptable result for you?
That's a weird setup.moly99 said:
Why would they be in rebuild mode again in 4 years? What happened to Love who would only be 29, did they mortgage the future for present and have no other young players, if so why did they only get 5-8 for the next 4 years?
If they make a Love trade that is similar to the rumored offer, I would be looking for them to add other pieces, whether that includes Rondo or moving him. I also expect them to be smart with their assets. That could mean putting together a go for it now team that gets you 4-5 years, but if so I would expect to be a top 4 seed at least in the East. Or it could mean a more organic build around Love and younger talent in a mix of trades and drafting, in which case I would be fine with 5-8 but wouldn't expect another teardown to be necessary in 4 years.
Brickowski said:
All true superstars are men. All true superstars are right handed. This is such a pointless statement.
moly99 said:
You get your superstar and you go from there. Post-trade Danny still probably has a ton of draft assets to use and next offseason might have some cap space and Gerald Wallace's expiring... The team building process doesnt end, Love would just be the foundation of the house that the next championship roster would be built on. They could also trade Rondo for and make some changes that way. The Celts wouldnt be in your typical NBA purgatory situation because of all of the draft picks we have coming to us. Danny loves to wheel and deal and he is pretty good at it, and as a drafter he is excellent.
Flip the question around, if we just go the draft route how many years do you think we have to 'build up' before we get to the exact point of being a 5-8 seed? Say its 3 years, in 3 years do you think we could flip Love for virtually the same draft assets that we would be losing if we go the Love route? I think so, thus there is really very little to lose.
Who knows? Only 4 players (Kobe, Duncan, KG and Dirk) have no trade clauses and they are all well past their primes. It depends what other teams are willing to do and what happens with Rondo, the 2014 trade exception and picks #6 and #17. As for free agents, here's a list: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9947573/nba-free-agents-2014-2015.
There is a much better than 50 percent chance that Love will be the best player available for acquisition for the Celtics over the next three years. Doesn't mean they have to trade for him, but don't kid yourself with this "oh we will just find someone else to acquire in '15 or '16" crap.
The Boston Globe article this AM makes it appear that this will all be moot (at least from the Celtics' standpoint). If Flip wants top caliber NBA talent now, the Celtics have nothing to offer.
Except Rondo, a player MN doesn't need. But if Ainge is hellbent on acquiring Love, he may be able to flip Rondo to a third team for a player that MN wants.
It's lying season. I don't believe the Globe or anyone else at this point, one way or the other.
I think MIN needs to go through another round of rebuilding. The Rubio/Love thing didn't work out, and the rest of their roster isn't attractive or good enough to just simply trade Love for "NBA talent".
MIN should get as many picks/assets as possible. Suck this year. Unload Rubio, and build from scratch again.
MIN should get as many picks/assets as possible. Suck this year. Unload Rubio, and build from scratch again.
Again, who knows? Maybe LaMarcus Aldridge tests free agency (jut as Rondo is likely to do). It's all speculative at this point. Besides, just because you have the biggest name with the biggest contract doesn't mean you have a winning team. The Celtics might be a better team by acquiring 2-3 lesser players using the money that they otherwise would have spent on Love. Certainly there's room for major improvement on defense-- especially in the middle-- and Love does nothing to address that.
If the Celtics do sign Love long term, he's going to have another ETO two or three years into the deal, and if the team is mediocre there is a much better than 50% chance that he will exercise it (or hold Ainge hostage by threatening to exercise it). How many players and first round picks are you willing to pay for two years of Love? For three years?
LaMarcus Aldridge testing free agency will have exactly zero relevance for the Celtics.Brickowski said:
How is Love going to be holding Ainge hostage again? Is he going to hold out for a super secret extra-max contract? Is he going to be suddenly untradeable at 28? But to answer the question, Id move probably Sullinger and 3-4 number 1s (depending on which number one they are).
There's for sure room to improve on the defense. You know what else there's room for? An efficient 25 point a game scorer who can rebound and pass. I think the latter is much, much harder to find, but YMMV.
Because Schwartz is an experienced agent. Wouldn't you demand one? It's not as if Love would be coming to a sure fire contender. He will give his client an exit strategy if things don't work out.
Brickowski said:
If you dont think Love is worth building around, you arent seriously suggesting that Aldridge is a better option are you? Even if you think they are equals as players, and I do not, Love is 3 years younger and has played nearly half as many minutes as Aldridge so he has much, much more in the tank.
Now you are suggesting that instead of giving Love ~$16M we go get 2 $8M players who will bring more collective value to the Celts. Go here for the players salaries and find me 2 players who are not on rookie deals who collectively make less than $16M who will bring more value than Love. There are some combinations like Jeff Green & Perk, or since the Pistons tried this once how about Charlie Villanueva and Stuckey and that worked out well. But there is zero chance you will do this because it involves doing some intelligent work rather than posting some foolishness as fast as you can.
my personal opinion which is maybe out of scope for this thread is that most stars are incredibly short-sighted to focus on the $ value of their NBA contract. Didn't Lillard sign a 9-digit endorsement contract? Won't Lebron have far more movie, TV & endorsement $ available to him in LA or NY than anywhere else? I haven't seen any detailed research but I suspect a lot of players could be making much more by taking less salary to play on a winner and/or in a big market and leverage that for more endorsement $.
ALiveH said:
He made $39M in non-salary money in 2013, so doubtful, unless there is a company or two that would specifically essentially pay him to come to their city (I'm stunned this kind of thing hasn't happened more, as it seems unpoliceable). I agree that $5M or $10M in salary is largely irrelevant for him and he should just pick the best basketball situation for himself, though.
From my very uninformed understanding, while this is true at the high end, it applies to like six or seven players. After that, you're talking much smaller sums of money.ALiveH said:
If Love goes to the Lakers for $10M, and leads them to a series of titles, sure, maybe he could land that deal. But he could just as easily go to the Lakers for $10M, have them build a decent, but not great team around him, and then just be forgoing $6-10M/year for the length of the contract, plus costing him money on the next deal too.
Better defense. And if you sign Aldridge (or someone else) as a free agent, you don't have to give a boatload of young players and picks. Maybe Love himself becomes a FA in 2015 if he's not traded.
There will be more free agents under the new CBA for two reasons: contracts are shorter and there is no longer any salary advantage to sign-and-trades; the player can get just as much in free agency. We saw that happen with Dwight Howard, and there will be others. The Celtics can easily sign a max free agent when Bass comes off the books by using the stretch provision on Green and Wallace. And Boston becomes a more attractive destination if Ainge manages to keep and develop the likes of Sullinger, Olynyck and the players he selects with #6 and #17.
Brickowski said:
Brick, come on now. You were asked to make a case for a better player than Love that would be available and all you do is link to a list of free agents? Or suggest another all offense PF in Aldridge?
Aldridge averaged 23 pts, 11 boards, 2.6 assists and 1 block per game last year. Love? 26 pts, 12.5 boards, 4.4 assists and .5 blocks per game. I'm not a huge fan of PER, but Aldridge came in at 21.84 last year compared to Love's 26.97. You'd really rather have Aldridge, who's also 3 years older and will be a free agent after next year like Love? And one other problem with getting LA, will he ever be available and want to come to Boston?
Right now, you've got a guy who's better, younger, and wants to come here. But you want to hold out hope for someone like LaMarcus Aldridge? I just don't get you sometimes, Brick.
The problem w brick and other people who just want to hoard picks and keep an eye on the future is that you have to play games now too. Everyone loves draft picks rookies and prospects because you dont ser thier warts. So sure brick lets just draft 9 first rounders in the next 5 yrs unless Lebron is available, but who knows ud probably try to tell me his defense isnt up to snuff or since he cant shoot 3s that well that his decline is inevitable and we should just wait til next yesr.
Consistently posting in a hoops forum doesnt mean you have a clue.
Consistently posting in a hoops forum doesnt mean you have a clue.
PER doesn't measure defense. Love is a great offensive player. Defensively he's a putz. Aldridge led his team to 54 wins and the second round of the playoffs. Love led his team to the lottery. BTW Aldridge is just an example of one free agent. I could have picked Marc Gasol or others.
As for winning games next year-- no. I want to be in the lottery one more year while I develop my young guys. In 2015-16 they can start winning.
Brick. Just stop. Please. U want to compare rosters quick w minnesota and portland?? So if aldridge is on minny they win 54?
ElcaballitoMVP said:
That's not all he said, though. It's not just a matter of Love vs. Aldridge, it's a matter of Love vs. Aldridge/this year's 6th/17th/Sullinger/whatever else is traded/less money. There's also a real risk that Love forces a sign and trade or forces his way into Ainge's office holding him hostage to overpay for someone like Rondo to keep him on board. People here are acting like this is a slam dunk, but there is a realistic chance of huge, huge disaster, as well. If the team decided to go ahead and build with the picks and wait for a safer alternative, I wouldn't be upset at all. I also don't think someone with Love's defensive deficiencies is a guy you want to blow all your resources on, so I'd want to see exactly what they're giving up. If it's much more than the two picks this year plus Olynyk, I'm not getting overly excited. I'd personally rather wait 10 years for the opportunity to put together a championship team than lose in the second round every year for half a decade and then have to rebuild again. If you could convince me that Love would stick around the next 7 years, you could probably change my mind. I'm just not confident enough in that happening.
Of course, I also recognize the likelihood that Aldridge doesn't sign here as well. My big concern is more with the situation surrounding Love, and his poor defense. You can't win championships in this league without some strong defense, and we're really going to need Stevens to coach up Love/others and get some substantial defensive talent around Love to get that to happen. If they do make the trade, I would strongly prefer Sullinger stay over Olynyk.