Can Love Be a Centerpiece of a Champion?
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the San Antonio spurs don't have a player as good as Love and they are up 1-0 in the finals. I think there is little doubt that love can be the best player on a contending team. but like every player not named LeBron he needs the right personel and coaching.
you obviously need 2+ very good/great players on a contender. just pointing out that I think it is foolish to think that someone as good as kevin love cannot be the best player on your team.
They aren't built in the model of a star driven team, though. They are a team designed around efficient use of players in controlled system that players are drafted and developed in.swingin val said:
A Rondo-Love-Anthony team would be constructed in the same model as the Heat, and with that kind of a team you need the stars to be able to carry the team.
If I were playing 1 series right now, I'd still take Tim Duncan over Kevin Love. He's probably a top 10-15 player all-time. Now he isn't as good as he was, and his age makes it tough for him to bring it every night, but 7 game series. No doubt.swingin val said:
LOL, really? You don't think Duncan, even at age 36, is better than Love? It's amazing how some folks, including a number of people in the Boston media, overrate Love. Maybe they think because Boston acquired another guy from MN named Kevin, that the two are somehow equivalent. They're not even close when it comes to the skills needed to win games against good opponents.
yes really. not sure why it is such a ridiculous notion that makes you want to LOL at my opinion.
you ever think that as much as people may be overating him you are doing the exact opposite?
you ever think that as much as people may be overating him you are doing the exact opposite?
Love is what he is. Excellent "stretch" 4, midrange post up game (not so good closer to the basket), excellent rebounder, very good outlet passer. IMHO the rest of his game is average or below, and that's why he doesn't win enough, even though his scoring and rebounding numbers are really good.
Brickowski said:
Would you say Love is comparable to Karl Malone? Malone was better defensively than Love is, but he wasnt a great defender. Offensively Love is better and Love is the vastly superior rebounder. I'd build a team around Malone, once the Jazz finally figured out how to help Stockton and Malone they made the finals
There is a pretty enormous difference between not being an elite defender and being a James Harden or Andrea Bargnani level defender like Love is. I would argue that the difference far exceeds the rebounding disparity between Love and Malone. Malone averaged 10.1 rebounds per game over his career while Love is averaging 12.5.wutang112878 said:
I normally don't like the eyeball test. But all you have to do is watch Love play and see that he gives free points to the other teams multiple times per game by not closing out lanes or bothering to even try and contest shots.Devizier said:
Defensive stats are still pretty unreliable in the NBA. Love's defensive stats are helped by the fact that Pekovic is also very poor at contesting shots and they have several good perimeter defenders. So from a team stat perspective the wings make Love look better, and from an individual perspective Pekovic -as the center- gets blamed for a lot of the uncontested layups.
There's a sick part of me that hopes the pro Love and Melo contingent get their wish so we can see exactly what a team that starts Rajon Rondo, <league minimum shooting guard>, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Love and <league minimum center> would look like on defense. I'm betting it would be the worst in the NBA.
Bargnani is better defensively in the paint, and protects the rim better. The almost 10% difference in opponent FG% at the rim bears this out. Andrea also blocks more shots, which can be useful. From the eyeball test I'd say Love is a bit better on the perimeter. Though it is hard to compare since MIN is otherwise an excellent defensive team, and the Knicks have only one good defender and are so poorly coached they never rotate correctly.Devizier said:
wutang112878 said:
Is there any truth in the argument that Love plays soft D to better position himself for boards? I heard that idea floated a while back, but I can't evaluate the veracity.
He rarely challenges shots which is where that argument comes from, so it could be that he does it for rebounding, or to avoid fouls. He could also just suck at help defense.luckiestman said:
The conventional wisdom that Love is a bad defender is outdated and seems to stem from him being shitty early on. He had 104 - 102 - 104 dRTG in the last three seasons; for comparison, Josh McRoberts, who is generally considered a little below average, had a 105 this year (on a team with arguably better individual defensive talent--the Wolves put Kevin Martin on the wing, c'mon). Love isn't a rim protector, sure, but that's not his job; it's like complaining that Paul Pierce doesn't protect the rim when he's playing the 4 for the Nets. In a league where just about every team plays four-out, he doesn't have to be that guy.
The comparisons with somebody like Andrea Bargnani are not just wrong but insane, verging on "do you watch basketball?". He is possibly the worst defensive big man in the league with regular minutes and the numbers bear it out--Bargnani had a 106 - 109 - 110 over the last three seasons. Love isn't good, but he's not bad.
The comparisons with somebody like Andrea Bargnani are not just wrong but insane, verging on "do you watch basketball?". He is possibly the worst defensive big man in the league with regular minutes and the numbers bear it out--Bargnani had a 106 - 109 - 110 over the last three seasons. Love isn't good, but he's not bad.
dRTG has been discussed before in many threads and is not a particularly good indicator of whether someone is a good defender, particularly for big men. In Love's case it really means that he plays on a team with several very good defenders (Rubio and Brewer particularly) and that he gets a lot of defensive rebounds. (Rebounds are good, but including them as a major component in determining how good a defender someone is doesn't really measure defending).Blacken said:
No player in the entire league gives up more points at the rim than Kevin Love. His opponents take the 10th most FGA at the rim and by far they score at the best rate of players in that range. He essentially averages more than 5 layups or dunks allowed per game. He's an excellent player, a great scorer, and a very good rebounder, that can make up for his being a poor defender, but he isn't a guy who does much to stop his man from scoring,
luckiestman said:
I really havent watched enough of him to tell, and its really only something you can evaluate with your eyes because stats help in no way. That said, I have to believe this is part of the problem. His rebounding numbers are just so ridiculous that there is absolutely no way he plays rim protection focused D 100% and then still close to 1 of every 3 defensive boards available. Its just doesnt seem possible. I mean KG had defensive rebounding numbers like this at the end of his Minny career but I just dont think Love has the height/length that KG has to facilitate that
Love's deficiencies come down to effort. The question is, can he be motivated to get back in transition, make timely rotations, not fuck around too much? Absolutely. Look at someone like Zach Randolph. Lazy as fuck with the Jailblazers and now a credible defensive force. Love lacks Randolph's physical presence, but it's not like athleticism is what's holding him back. The dude is plenty strong and plenty athletic. For a Celtics example, you have Paul Pierce, who went from being an elite defender to a poor defender to a very good (but older, not quite as elite) defender. On the other hand, you have Rondo, who is trending in the opposite direction. I don't think its an accident that a lot of players put out superior defensive effort when their team starts winning. Motivation matters. Obviously you have freaks like Kevin Garnett, who has only one speed, but how many of those guys are there in the league?
Couldnt agree more. If Love was traded to the Bulls, I have every confidence in the world that Tibs would be able to turn him into a good defender in no time.
good is probably his ceiling, he has some physical limitations. His wingspan is pretty small and his vertical is only acceptable. I agree though he could be ok with more effort, he's always going to struggle with contesting in the lane, but he could be better with positioning, driving lanes, helping etc.wutang112878 said:
His wingspan is probably a little less than Boozers, but Tibs has had Boozer looking the part of rim protector
about 3.25 inches different actually.wutang112878 said:
I definitely wouldn't call Boozer a rim protector, Noah is the guy on that team, actually Boozer has been very poor at the rim again this year, HOWEVER, the big improvement has been that he doesn't let opponents get to the rim very often. As a comparison, Love gives up an insane 57.4% at the rim, Boozer is also very poor at 55.3%. However Boozer's opponents only get 4 FGA per game to Love's 9.1 FGA. Now a part of that is Noah's presence behind him, but watching Bulls games, Boozer uses a combination of strength, positioning and filling lanes with his wingspan to achieve this. Love will have difficulty with the 3rd, but the first two are something he should be able to do.
League average shooting in the restricted area is 56.47%. So Love's percentage against is hardly insane, and Boozer's is very slightly better than average.Cellar-Door said:
As some of you have already pointed out, it seems kind of impossible to flat out declare if a player is good enough to be the best player on a championship team. Right now on Minnesota, Love can't even get his team into the playoffs, so just going by history, you would think that Love isn't good enough. However, if you swapped him with David West, and he became the best player on Indy, I totally think they could win the title. It completely depends on circumstance.
That includes non-defended dunks put backs, shots against PGs etc. Go to player tracking and sort by fg% against. Once you limit it to players who face a statistically significant number of shots per game it becomes clear that Love is one of the worst in the league.Grin&MartyBarret said:
If you swapped him with David West he would be the second best player on Indy.
I can say one thing: Love could definitely be the centerpiece of a championship fantasy basketball team.
The more I think about it the more I think Love could be the centerpiece of a championship team.
He isn't a Lebron type where it is super easy to build around him, you have to build a particular way with Love which makes it harder.
The easiest way is to get a very good rim protecting center next to him. Tough as it is one of the rarest player types.
The other is to get a good defender at C, and an elite 3/4 defender (Young Artest, Leonard, Aaron Gordon, Josh Smith).
He isn't a Lebron type where it is super easy to build around him, you have to build a particular way with Love which makes it harder.
The easiest way is to get a very good rim protecting center next to him. Tough as it is one of the rarest player types.
The other is to get a good defender at C, and an elite 3/4 defender (Young Artest, Leonard, Aaron Gordon, Josh Smith).
Maybe we ought to see how Aaron Gordon does in Summer league before we annoint him as an "elite 3/4 defender" in the NBA. And since when does Josh Smith make that list? Jeff Green is a better defender than Josh Smith. And why isn't LeBron on it?
Lebron is Lebron, any team with him he's the centerpiece.Brickowski said:
Josh Smith is a better interior defender than Green by a significant margin, he is a rim protector from the 3.
Aaron Gordon is beyond your criticisms.
But with all due respect, you aren't. How can you call a 19 year-old who has never played a minute in the NBA an elite NBA wing defender?
Because he will be.Brickowski said:
Honestly I mostly threw it in as a joke.
However he is most likely going to be, considering he was a remarkable 3/4 defender in college, he was exceptional at limiting good looks, he played great when matched up with top talents, he rarely fouled. Then when put in a totally different system with the U19 team, also dominated, but with more latitude to gamble also had a very high steal rate. He can play any system, has great physical tools, and is advanced beyond his years in terms of system play.
Edit- Also he's 18.
Ok, it was a joke. Now let's talk about the vaunted Josh Smith. If he's so good on defense, and they had all that rim protection with Josh Smith, Drummond, et. al, why did Detroit allow an average of 104.7 ppg (27th in the league) and permiot their opponents to shoot an efg of 52%, 29th in the league? The Pistons completely sucked defensively, and Josh Smith deserves his share of the blame.
Monroe is a terrible rim protector, Andre Drummond and rookie SG Kentavious Caldwell-Pope were young players learning to play defense on the job, Brandon Jennings is an awful defender and Chauncey Billups is a million years old. I don't think it's fair to blame Josh Smith for all their defensive problems.Brickowski said:
In my mind that team has the worst constructed roster in the league and it isn't even close. I have no idea how the same GM could build a championships team without a top 15 player and sign Josh Smith to a team with Monroe and Drummond. It's incomprehensible.
Well their 8 man rotation included: Jennings, Singler, Caldwell-Pope, Bynum (Will) , and Stuckey all terrible defenders. Monroe is also a mediocre defender, though not terrible in the lane, but he has no lateral quickness more than 4 feet from the basket, Drummond is a shot blocker, and eventually should be a defensive anchor, but right now he is only mediocre at stopping scorers at the rim (52%) and the rest of the bench is all made up of terrible defenders. They gave up a ton of fastbreak points (7th most in the league), and had a very high percentage of points against from 3pt, all of which indicates they had really terrible guards. Also Smith was playing too many small 3s because that team is built in a stupid manner.Brickowski said:
Smith still had an excellent ratio of steals and blocks to PF, and opponents shot only 47% against him inside, which is excellent (better than Duncan, Howard, Asik, Davis etc.).
You're right. The prospect of the Celtics overpaying for Love and spending the next few years in 35-40 win NBA limbo while Love rakes in the big bucks and puts up spectacular individual numbers is no laughing matter.
I sort of think the whole premise of this thread is silly.
As an example, if you stick Love on the 2004 Pistons and he's their best offensive player and puts up the biggest #s then he'd technically be the centerpiece. And, that team is definitely good enough to win a championship.
So, yes Love can be a centerpiece of a champion.
Also, the question says "a centerpiece" not "the centerpiece". The second or 3rd best player of a championship team is "a centerpiece", so yes Love could definitely be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a championship team.
As an example, if you stick Love on the 2004 Pistons and he's their best offensive player and puts up the biggest #s then he'd technically be the centerpiece. And, that team is definitely good enough to win a championship.
So, yes Love can be a centerpiece of a champion.
Also, the question says "a centerpiece" not "the centerpiece". The second or 3rd best player of a championship team is "a centerpiece", so yes Love could definitely be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a championship team.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
Who knows? Love has been in the league 6 years and all he has done is put up great numbers on bad teams. I haven't seen a scintilla of hard evidence that things would be different in Boston (or anywhere else) than they have been in Minnesota-- just a bunch of hopeful opinions.
It seems to me that if Love in fact will be the third best player on a championship team, then Ainge ought to use the assets he has to acquire the first and second best players rather than squandering resources (i.e. Sullinger and a boatload of picks) to pay max dollars to a guy who might be the third best player. Hell, Sullinger could be the third best player on a championship team too.
Kevin Love is an elite NBA player. Talking about putting up empty numbers is asinine. The question is whether he provides enough value on a max contract to be worth the assets required to acquire him. I will bet an exile from the board that the Celtics win more than 40 games a year for the next three years if they acquire Love.
Stitch01 said:
Not saying I disagree with this, but to be fair it is easier for a baseball GM to find ways to work around a given player's deficiencies.