Cade to Black: 2021 NBA Draft Thread

[nighthob]

Sure, but Charlotte's frontcourt is a touch crowded at the moment. And they have a better offensive QB already, meaning they'd already be getting less than optimal use out of Barnes anyway (because he's not very good off the ball right now, and the jumper's so bad he might never be). My suspicion is that they'd probably prefer a combo guard like Springer who can act as a secondary facilitator while still being able to provide them with offense off the ball. Which was my point, if Barnes slips to them there is, realistically, a deal to be made there if Stevens wanted Barnes.

 

[EL Jeffe]

Jalen Johnson would be a lot of fun, but it's hard to imagine him lasting to 16. A couple of guys I'm intrigued by:

James Bouknight: I'm sure most here are familiar with the UCONN star. He's got a smoothness to his game that reminds me of Jamal Murray (Murray was a much better playmaker, not really doing a 1:1 comp here). I think he shoots well enough to play off the ball, and has the shot creation and athleticism to be a secondary scorer. He'll probably end up at least passable of defense. I like him a lot better than Cam Thomas and some of the other 2Gs in the draft.

Ziaire Williams: Sort of fits the Ainge profile of elite HS player who was a bit underwhelming as a freshman. He's severely underdeveloped physically, which doesn't really fit their profile, though. That said, he's long, he can shoot, and has really nice passing vision. There's a lot of projection here, and who knows what his game will look like once he adds 20-30 pounds of good weight. Kind of reminds me of Tervor Ariza with better passing/playmaking ability. Maybe Otto Porter (before his career went milk carton)?

 

[benhogan]

Not necessarily. Charlotte desperately needs guards bigger than 6'1" and have a lot of Fs. So I think that there might be opportunities there for Boston. Especially given that the Hornets already have a better PG and with Barnes there's a real danger that he's just Aaron Gordon v1.1.

If they can finagle an upside guy like Barnes/JJ at 16 that would be great, but I suspect PBS won't be motivated on packing picks/players to trade up to 11-13 in the draft to snag some young talent.
Nesmith/Langford still need development minutes. Grant sticks around as the teams' Chipotle ambassador. The C's probably jettison several of Carsen/Tre/Tacko/Semi/Kornet and fills in with vets.

I wouldn't mind seeing the C's trade several 1sts to move their expensive vets while adding a young RFA (Ball or Collins wish list).
They still will have a 2nd rounder to dream on a Grimes/Livers/Garza/Bassey for G-league development

 

[pjheff]

I wouldn't mind seeing the C's trade several 1sts to move their expensive vets while adding a young RFA (Ball or Collins wish list).

Given that several 1sts are among the only assets that Stevens has at his disposal to make a significant acquisition, I would only say that a young RFA like Ball or Collins does not move the needle enough to fire that bullet.

 

[benhogan]

Given that several 1sts are among the only assets that Stevens has at his disposal to make a significant acquisition, I would only say that a young RFA like Ball or Collins does not move the needle enough to fire that bullet.

If they could lose Kemba with two 1sts and add Lonzo Ball or John Collins they do that every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

You don't look in the rearview mirror with 23yr olds (Ball/Collins), you look to what they will be the next 3-4 seasons with Tatum & Brown.

Paying big money/prospects for past performance/vets on decline leads to signing Kemba Walker to a max deal.

 

[pjheff]

If they could lose Kemba with two 1sts and add Lonzo Ball or John Collins they do that every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

You don't look in the rearview mirror with 23yr olds (Ball/Collins), you look to what they will be the next 3-4 seasons with Tatum & Brown.

Paying big money/prospects for past performance/vets on decline leads to signing Kemba Walker to a max deal.

Respectfully, I disagree. While the team would undoubtedly be better, it wouldn’t be good enough and have even fewer avenues for improving. In my opinion, Stevens needs to save his picks for a true whale.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Given that several 1sts are among the only assets that Stevens has at his disposal to make a significant acquisition, I would only say that a young RFA like Ball or Collins does not move the needle enough to fire that bullet.

Assuming we are a playoff team for years to come those late 1sts surely aren’t going to move to needle nor will they have much opportunity for playing time while being locked into a multi-year deal.

 

[benhogan]

Respectfully, I disagree. While the team would undoubtedly be better, it wouldn’t be good enough and have even fewer avenues for improving. In my opinion, Stevens needs to save his picks for a true whale.

yea, on paper right now it probably doesn't knock your socks off. BUT just look at Lonzo's improvement the last few seasons, his 3pt shooting is amazingly good. Collins is one of the most efficient shooters in the NBA. Both are getting better every year, I'd bet on them improving further.

I'm a bigger fan than most of wanting the roster built around the Jays timeline. Next season is a bridge to 2023 & beyond Championship runs IMO.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Nor are they much of a bullet to fire, unless you go 4 years out and they are unprotected or nearly so...

 

[HomeRunBaker]

yea, on paper right now it probably doesn't knock your socks off. BUT just look at Lonzo's improvement the last few seasons, his 3pt shooting is amazingly good. Collins is one of the most efficient shooters in the NBA. Both are getting better every year, I'd bet on them improving further.

I'm a bigger fan than most of wanting the roster built around the Jays timeline. Next season is a bridge to 2023 & beyond Championship runs IMO.

I agree on this. You need a 3rd heavy minute impact guy. The guy Danny thought Kemba was going to be. As I’ve been beating like a dead horse, the greatest value in Ainge not being the GM is that whoever comes in is going to be looking to make a splash and be more aggressive than simply waiting for “his picks” to turn into what he envisions them to be.

Collins or Ball would be a dream for this organization right now. Real good young players with contracts locked up into the next 3-4 years with the Jays. Once we add someone like this then we can begin rounding out the rotation with specific skill sets.

 

[benhogan]

I agree on this. You need a 3rd heavy minute impact guy. The guy Danny thought Kemba was going to be. As I’ve been beating like a dead horse, the greatest value in Ainge not being the GM is that whoever comes in is going to be looking to make a splash and be more aggressive than simply waiting for “his picks” to turn into what he envisions them to be.

Collins or Ball would be a dream for this organization right now. Real good young players with contracts locked up into the next 3-4 years with the Jays. Once we add someone like this then we can begin rounding out the rotation with specific skill sets.

You're correct, keep beating that horse

I like what I saw out of Nesmith/Langford and want to see them developed at the end of the rotation. I'm usually a prospect humper but the C's should cash in their 1sts now, I don't see the point of trying to develop #16 and a bunch of 20s over the next few seasons if they could add a young 3rd cusp All-Star

 

[chilidawg]

Collins or Ball would be a dream for this organization right now. Real good young players with contracts locked up into the next 3-4 years with the Jays. Once we add someone like this then we can begin rounding out the rotation with specific skill sets.

Agree on this.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

You're correct, keep beating that horse

I like what I saw out of Nesmith/Langford and want to see them developed at the end of the rotation. I'm usually a prospect humper but the C's should cash in their 1sts now, I don't see the point of trying to develop #16 and a bunch of 20s over the next few seasons if they could add a young 3rd cusp All-Star

The only thing I see different here is the new guy wants HIS guys so maybe using this years draft on that guy while moving one of Ainge’s picks that he doesn’t prefer. For me that would be Nesmith while retaining Romeo. After this summer, if not sooner, we should be looking at Brad filling out the rotation with older veterans opposed to younger ones as Tatum and Jaylen mature.

 

[djbayko]

The only thing I see different here is the new guy wants HIS guys so maybe using this years draft on that guy while moving one of Ainge’s picks that he doesn’t prefer. For me that would be Nesmith while retaining Romeo. After this summer, if not sooner, we should be looking at Brad filling out the rotation with older veterans opposed to younger ones as Tatum and Jaylen mature.

This is a slightly different situation though, given that Stevens was promoted rather than brought in new. It’s very possible that he sees someone like Langford or Nesmith as his guys, through building relationships while coaching and/or being involved in the draft selection process.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

This is a slightly different situation though, given that Stevens was promoted rather than brought in new. It’s very possible that he sees someone like Langford or Nesmith as his guys, through building relationships while coaching and/or being involved in the draft selection process.

I agree with this but he clearly was more comfortable with Romeo than Nesmith pretty much for most of the year......and I ageee with him.

 

[djbayko]

I agree with this but he clearly was more comfortable with Romeo than Nesmith pretty much for most of the year......and I ageee with him.

Yes, he definitely has unease with Nesmith for much of the season.

 

[Conigliaro's Potential]

Collins or Ball would be a dream for this organization right now. Real good young players with contracts locked up into the next 3-4 years with the Jays. Once we add someone like this then we can begin rounding out the rotation with specific skill sets.

I'll happily drive Collins to the airport for you myself - I'm increasingly convinced his game is much more suited for the regular season than the playoffs. (I'm not sure who the Hawks would want in a sign-and-trade among the Celtics players that would be available in a trade, though...and it would have to be a sign-and-trade, because the Hawks have to know from the Bogdanovic episode that you can't just let assets that valuable - and Collins does have plenty of value despite what I just said - walk without compensation.)

 

[nighthob]

Yeah, put me down for a no where Collins is concerned (the price is going to far outstrip any real value as he hunts for his numbers). Ball is OK, but the Knicks have him in their sights and no way do I want to be paying max money for Marcus production.

 

[EL Jeffe]

I thought Patrick Williams was way over-drafted last year, but the physical tools and flashes were certainly there at FSU. I'm curious what people think of Greg Brown this year vs. FSU Willams as a prospect the year before. Brown sounds like a mid-late first, and while I didn't watch a ton of Texas, he struck me as a reasonable facsimile of Williams. Size, physical skills, can make a 3 (not the cleanest release you'll ever see though), will put it on the floor and make a play every now and then, etc. I have no idea on his makeup/character, and he's obviously raw (as was Williams), but barring some sort of red flag, I don't see a big gulf between Brown and Williams as prospects.

 

[pjheff]

Assuming we are a playoff team for years to come those late 1sts surely aren’t going to move to needle nor will they have much opportunity for playing time while being locked into a multi-year deal.

Such picks were part of the acquisition cost for Anthony Davis and essentially all for Jrue Holiday.

yea, on paper right now it probably doesn't knock your socks off. BUT just look at Lonzo's improvement the last few seasons, his 3pt shooting is amazingly good. Collins is one of the most efficient shooters in the NBA. Both are getting better every year, I'd bet on them improving further.

I'm a bigger fan than most of wanting the roster built around the Jays timeline. Next season is a bridge to 2023 & beyond Championship runs IMO.

I understand that Ball and Collins are good players. I just don’t think that they’re good enough to put this team over the top and the team would have one fewer path to get there.

Nor are they much of a bullet to fire, unless you go 4 years out and they are unprotected or nearly so...

I would prefer to wait on a disgruntled superstar and that possibility.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Such picks were part of the acquisition cost for Anthony Davis and essentially all for Jrue Holiday.

Davis was traded for Ingram, Ball and the #4 overall pick. That deal wasn’t breaking down due to ancillary compensation and we don’t have any of those primary pieces to move.

I like Jrue. He’s a 30-year old starting guard who was swapped for another 30-year old starting guard and some low picks. Probably a good deal for the Bucks but not one that you sit on your hands and wait for years.

 

[benhogan]

I understand that Ball and Collins are good players. I just don’t think that they’re good enough to put this team over the top and the team would have one fewer path to get there.

If the Jays and Ball/Collins stay static, with no improvement, they'd probably be a top 4-5 EC team.
I'd place my bet on their talent improving, esp JT, with the present ~ top 15 players (ex Joker/Luka) declining over the next 2-4 seasons.

I'm sceptical on waiting for a disgruntled star/whale demand their way to Boston. Even with 3 EC Finals appearances, we've seen numerous FA force their way out, with Ky-hex continuously dropping stink bombs on Boston. This has led to Danny overpaying for secondary FA's the last few years (just a horrible game plan)

Development + continuity + time/patience is the formula for the Celtics IMO. Obviously getting superstars like AD/Bron forcing their way to your team is the easiest way to banners, that just isn't in the cards for Boston.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I would prefer to wait on a disgruntled superstar and that possibility.

Why would a disgruntled star be less disgruntled being the third banana to our two young All-Stars? It isn’t likely Boston would be on this fictitious stars destination list.

 

[the moops]

Why would a disgruntled star be less disgruntled being the third banana to our two young All-Stars? It isn’t likely Boston would be on this fictitious stars destination list.

I don't advocate waiting for this mythical disgruntled superstar, but at worst, this mythical beast would be a 2nd banana.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Why would a disgruntled star be less disgruntled being the third banana to our two young All-Stars? It isn’t likely Boston would be on this fictitious stars destination list.

Because he wants to win and teaming up with 2 young all stars is a good way to do that.

Not everyone is Gordon Hayward.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Because he wants to win and teaming up with 2 young all stars is a good way to do that.

Not everyone is Gordon Hayward.

Most stars, mythical or not, think that they're the first banana everywhere. I'm not sure that I even want a disgruntled max guy who's worried about losing touches to Tatum and Brown.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I'm with HRB---there's a lot of wishcasting here about people wanting to be in Boston. I think we need something more than "there's two good young players here"

Beal, at least, has the Tatum connection which helps Boston.

Guys like KAT might be persuaded by a chance to grow and win with peers---but he doesn't really control where he goes.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Because he wants to win and teaming up with 2 young all stars is a good way to do that.

Not everyone is Gordon Hayward.

Yeah it doesn’t work that way in real life though. Stars are stars for a reason......it is rare for one to fall back into a lesser role until they are into their 30’s. We aren’t acquiring any star for a couple picks in the 20’s and Aaron Nesmith.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I think a disgruntled star is unlikely, but I don't get the idea that he'd necessarily care about being the clear #1.
Stars want out for a variety of reasons, and often it's because they want a chance at a ring.
AD left NO to be 2nd to LeBron
PG13 left IND to be 2nd to Westbrook, then 2nd to Kawhi
Harden forced his way out of HOU to be Durant's #2

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I think a disgruntled star is unlikely, but I don't get the idea that he'd necessarily care about being the clear #1.
Stars want out for a variety of reasons, and often it's because they want a chance at a ring.
AD left NO to be 2nd to LeBron
PG13 left IND to be 2nd to Westbrook, then 2nd to Kawhi
Harden forced his way out of HOU to be Durant's #2

All of those players you mentioned were respected veterans much like Pierce was in 2007. Older players don’t always connect well with younger stars nor do they want to connect with them.

 

[pjheff]

Davis was traded for Ingram, Ball and the #4 overall pick. That deal wasn’t breaking down due to ancillary compensation and we don’t have any of those primary pieces to move.

As I said, such picks were “part” of the acquisition cost for Davis.

I like Jrue. He’s a 30-year old starting guard who was swapped for another 30-year old starting guard and some low picks. Probably a good deal for the Bucks but not one that you sit on your hands and wait for years.

Without focusing on the target, the type of trade was one of Milwaukee’s few paths to improvement given the team’s lack of cap space.

If the Jays and Ball/Collins stay static, with no improvement, they'd probably be a top 4-5 EC team.
I'd place my bet on their talent improving, esp JT, with the present ~ top 15 players (ex Joker/Luka) declining over the next 2-4 seasons.

I'm sceptical on waiting for a disgruntled star/whale demand their way to Boston. Even with 3 EC Finals appearances, we've seen numerous FA force their way out, with Ky-hex continuously dropping stink bombs on Boston. This has led to Danny overpaying for secondary FA's the last few years (just a horrible game plan)

Development + continuity + time/patience is the formula for the Celtics IMO. Obviously getting superstars like AD/Bron force their way to your team is the easiest way to banners, that just isn't in the cards for Boston.

I expect young players to improve, but I wouldn’t want to push all of my chips into the center of the table on that nucleus

Why would a disgruntled star be less disgruntled being the third banana to our two young All-Stars? It isn’t likely Boston would be on this fictitious stars destination list.

I don’t think that the C’s should be trying to acquire a third banana (especially one who might actually be a fourth).

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Yeah it doesn’t work that way in real life though. Stars are stars for a reason......it is rare for one to fall back into a lesser role until they are into their 30’s. We aren’t acquiring any star for a couple picks in the 20’s and Aaron Nesmith.

We aren't acquiring one because we don't have the pieces. I just don't buy that a disgruntled star who wants to win would pass up playing with Brown and Tatum.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

We aren't acquiring one because we don't have the pieces. I just don't buy that a disgruntled star who wants to win would pass up playing with Brown and Tatum.

This is kinda what I’m saying. This isn’t 2007 when we have a high lottery pick that summer along with Al Jefferson to anchor a deal that could include those low draft picks to sweeten the pot. As a stand-alone piece.....picks in the 20’s don’t carry much value and require tying up tax space. If we had anchors to headline a deal my position would be much different.

 

[nighthob]

Davis was traded for Ingram, Ball and the #4 overall pick. That deal wasn’t breaking down due to ancillary compensation and we don’t have any of those primary pieces to move.

I like Jrue. He’s a 30-year old starting guard who was swapped for another 30-year old starting guard and some low picks. Probably a good deal for the Bucks but not one that you sit on your hands and wait for years.

Harden was dumped for the chance that some fist round picks 5-7 years out have value. And that deal was made with the chance that Houston isn't going to have their own first (which will, essentially, destroy the franchise for years). Bad GMing happens.

 

[benhogan]

I expect young players to improve, but I wouldn’t want to push all of my chips into the center of the table on that nucleus

I don't believe Kemba + two 1sts is pushing in all the Celtic chips.

Assets (besides the Jays):
1. Smart
2. Robert Williams
3. Nesmith
4. Langford
5. pick swaps
6. 1st Round picks down the road
7. EF sign & trade

Even 1yr of TT may have value to a team like Sacramento, they may be losing Holmes/Whiteside (I'm trying my damndest to svengali Delon Wright into the C's rotation)

In addition to that, unloading Kemba's salary for the next 2 seasons would be helpful (a lot of it replaced with RFA)

 

[pjheff]

I don't believe Kemba + two 1sts is pushing in all the Celtic chips.

I think that draft picks hold more currency to an acquiring team than the guaranteed contracts of the developmental young players currently on the roster, and trading two of them (say ‘22 and ‘24) to unload Kemba functionally takes four of them (’23 and ‘25) off the table due to the Stepien rule, closing the door on using the others to land a major acquisition.

 

[Auger34]

I'm with HRB---there's a lot of wishcasting here about people wanting to be in Boston. I think we need something more than "there's two good young players here"

Beal, at least, has the Tatum connection which helps Boston.

Guys like KAT might be persuaded by a chance to grow and win with peers---but he doesn't really control where he goes.

But wasn’t the discussion around Collins and Ball specifically?
I really want the C’s to cash in their chips for a star but....I don’t think Collins or Ball are that type of player and I wouldn’t cash in a lot of chips for either honestly. And I am a big Lonzo fan. (Not so much Collins. Think he’s overrated and not worth the contract he’s going to get)

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yeah, I don't get the appeal of Collins or Ball at top of the market prices. One or both are getting max deals, and I don't think either is now, or will be in the future max-deal worthy.

 

[RedOctober3829]

View: https://twitter.com/chrisgrenham/status/1405539267233730567

 

[HomeRunBaker]

View: https://twitter.com/chrisgrenham/status/1405539267233730567

Keep an eye on Bones Hyland. He’s a guy on the HRB Watch List. People are going to look at his shooting numbers and gasp while saying he “regressed” however he was VCU’s entire offense, often faced multiple defenders and was taken out of his comfort zone by game planning. This was a similar issue to Jaylen when at Cal so please don’t blindly quote raw numbers. He’s also a real good perimeter defender and as I preach.....his upside is in his physicals as his body in 3-4 years will be much stronger and ready for the NBA than it is today. He’s a 2 and could be Brad’s upside replacement to Nesmith is the latter wasn’t his guy (I truly don’t believe he was).......I see a Lou Will comp in him both in scoring ability at same stage and BBIQ.

 

[nighthob]

If he’s Brad’s upside pick to replace Nesmith his tenure at the top doesn’t seem destined to last very long. He’s also about as close to 6’3” as Cooper is to 6’1”. Not very. He’s more like a Carsten Edwards replacement. Hopefully as an undrafted free agent.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

If he’s Brad’s upside pick to replace Nesmith his tenure at the top doesn’t seem destined to last very long. He’s also about as close to 6’3” as Cooper is to 6’1”. Not very. He’s more like a Carsten Edwards replacement. Hopefully as an undrafted free agent.

Yes, hence my Lou Will upside. He’s a 2nd rounder def not a 1st

 

[nighthob]

I mean if they still had Hayward I guess you could get away with Hyland at the 1. Or if they lucked into Barnes or Jalen Johnson this year. I’d still a thousand percent prefer Springer in round 1 as the long term answer at the 1g spot.

 

[EL Jeffe]

Keep an eye on Bones Hyland. He’s a guy on the HRB Watch List. People are going to look at his shooting numbers and gasp while saying he “regressed” however he was VCU’s entire offense, often faced multiple defenders and was taken out of his comfort zone by game planning. This was a similar issue to Jaylen when at Cal so please don’t blindly quote raw numbers. He’s also a real good perimeter defender and as I preach.....his upside is in his physicals as his body in 3-4 years will be much stronger and ready for the NBA than it is today. He’s a 2 and could be Brad’s upside replacement to Nesmith is the latter wasn’t his guy (I truly don’t believe he was).......I see a Lou Will comp in him both in scoring ability at same stage and BBIQ.

As a PC guy, what do you make of David Duke? As I see it, what they need out of the PG is really some defensive versatility/switchability, able knock down an open 3, and enough playmaking ability to be a secondary initiator. I think Duke checks some of those boxes for a 2nd round type.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I mean if they still had Hayward I guess you could get away with Hyland at the 1. Or if they lucked into Barnes or Jalen Johnson this year. I’d still a thousand percent prefer Springer in round 1 as the long term answer at the 1g spot.

Oh no doubt. Springer is my guy with our 1st rounder. I like Hyland as a flier who can be a rotation guy down the road and possibly an impact one in 5-6 years.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

As a PC guy, what do you make of David Duke? As I see it, what they need out of the PG is really some defensive versatility/switchability, able knock down an open 3, and enough playmaking ability to be a secondary initiator. I think Duke checks some of those boxes for a 2nd round type.

I’ve posted about him before and feel that he’s going to be one of the most impressive workout guys and can be a 1st rounder. His value was skyrocketing early in the year when he was playing the 2 then when our PG went down all of the ball handling and playmaking responsibilities fell back on Duke which is not his game so his “stock” dropped. He was thought to be a pure 1 coming out of HS but once he developed into a knock down 3-point shooter coupled with his loose handle it was apparent he’s going to be a wing at the next level. He’s so switchable defensively which I think will stand out at the combine too.

 

[nighthob]

Oh no doubt. Springer is my guy with our 1st rounder. I like Hyland as a flier who can be a rotation guy down the road and possibly an impact one in 5-6 years.

Some sights have both Johnson and Springer floating to Boston's range. I would sacrifice puppies to Satan to see those guys there. If they could add both they'd really be the JCrew. Of course I'd lobby Springer to change his name from Jaden to Jalen so that they could be Jayson & the Ja(y)lenauts.

 

[nighthob]

As a PC guy, what do you make of David Duke? As I see it, what they need out of the PG is really some defensive versatility/switchability, able knock down an open 3, and enough playmaking ability to be a secondary initiator. I think Duke checks some of those boxes for a 2nd round type.

Let me echo HRB here, he's near the top of my Future Elite 3&D board. He's switchable 1-3 and is strong enough to hold his own against larger guys. He could even play the 1 alongside someone like LeBron, Luka, or Cade.

 

[TripleOT]

As a PC guy, what do you make of David Duke? As I see it, what they need out of the PG is really some defensive versatility/switchability, able knock down an open 3, and enough playmaking ability to be a secondary initiator. I think Duke checks some of those boxes for a 2nd round type.

Duke is my choice for the Celtics at 45. He’s an older prospect, 22 when the season starts, and strangely struggled from inside the arc (41.5 from three his soph and junior years, 39% from two), but that partly might be a function of offensive scheme as he was transitioned from wing to PG.

I think he has the size and work ethic to be an NBA player, but when I watched him in person, I expected a lot more. Maybe the more free flowing NBA game will suit him better than those college rock fights

 

[TripleOT]

G League Elite camp in Chicago stream on twitch

View: https://www.twitch.tv/nbagleague