Byerie Irving? Do you want Kyrie back?

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

The vast majority of NBA star players are mercurial weird dudes. While Kyrie isn't in their class, LeBron and Durant are both surly, petty, difficult personalities who each have track record of being a poor teammate. However it doesn't stop there - what about Chris Paul or Kawhi Leonard? Jimmy Butler or Joel Emiid? And the list goes on.

Really good athletes tend to be quirky for a variety of reasons. And the most fierce competitors can sometimes come off as complete assholes.

 

[Nick Kaufman]

All of the people you mentioned have harmed their teams and to an extent themselves with their antics. Golden State had a happy go lucky culture when Durant came, but by year two, you them all having grumpy faces and they are underperforming.

There are also guys who for the most part come of as balanced: Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, James Harden, CJ McCollum (don't know enough about Lillard, maybe) Paul George, Giannis etc. Bradley Beal who's rumored as an alternative seems like an upright citizen albeit less talented than Kyrie. Maybe it's worth taking a shot at him.

 

[Bergs]

I am completely on team Byerie. He's a second tier talent with a fucking awful leadership skillset.

 

[E5 Yaz]

All of the people you mentioned have harmed their teams and to an extent themselves with their antics. Golden State had a happy go lucky culture when Durant came, but by year two, you them all having grumpy faces and they are underperforming.

This is year three; they won titles with him the first two years

 

[amarshal2]

If the Celtics sign him to a max deal, how long until they can trade him and his personality disorders to another team? He seems to have ruined the whole year. I want the value out of his talent and cap space but nothing else.

 

[mikeford]

I don’t think it is his decision. Feels like Kyrie checked out and doesn’t want to be here.

It's still his decision on what to do after that. Which is still a franchise altering decision if you continue to pursue AD and try to sign Kemba Walker or something.

 

[Toe Nash]

I'm not sure if it's "quitting" or just horrible decision-making but @BrianTRobb on twitter has been posting clips of Kyrie on D in games 4 and 5 and they're pretty awful:

You can read more if you subscribe to Boston Sports Journal but I'll post a couple tweets:



It seemed like they totally lacked communication and yes, effort on D when Kyrie was out there and last night it totally changed in my view when he was on the bench. The shots not falling is one thing and I don't expect Kyrie to be Gary Payton on the defensive end, but playing like that, especially in game 4 when the game and series was within reach, is unacceptable.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Figured this year would be better than it was.
Understandably, there were some challenges.
Celtics just never really meshed together.
Knowing this, tough to feel confident about 2020.
Kyrie may never fully buy in to Brad’s system.
Yes, this may be a bit of an overreaction.
Really disappointed in his lack of leadership.
I was so excited about the potential of this team.
Everyone needs to work their asses off now.

Dude, sonnets are 14 lines.

 

[DJnVa]

Maybe update the poll:

1--No Kyrie, no AD, young kids FTW
2--No Kyrie, AD on board for Tatum
3--No Kyrie, AD on board for Brown+
4--Kyrie and AD in town for whatever

 

[Soxfan in Fla]

I did not see the game last night. What was their shooting percentage on open shots. It was 24% in Game 4. For how well they played in Game 1 they completely fell apart after. In fact the whole turning point seems to be that 28-2 run in the 3rd and 4th quarters of game 2. They were down 4, had not played well but were in it, then the wheels fell off and pretty much stayed off the rest of the series.

 

[Bad Penny]

It looks like Kyrie is following in LeBron's footsteps. When the going gets tough, the weak go somewhere else. I know it is pure speculation, but he showed zero effort tonight.

Seriously? I saw plenty of effort, just zero execution.

We must have watched a different game. His defense was abysmal. I never complain about missed shots, sometimes the ball just will not go in the basket, but I always notice effort. Kyrie played like it was a January game against Orlando.

He took an impressive charge against Bledsoe - Smartesque
His D didn’t seem any worse than normal. D was just in a tough spot having to fly back into position after the brick fest on the other end. Just caught up to them.

Former multiple time MVP Steph Curry had a 3-14 shooting night against the Clippers in the first round. Finals MVP and a consensus top 10 player Kawhi Leonard had a game versus Orlando where he shot 5-19 from the field. Jimmy Butler, who is the 76ers alpha and considered one of the best two way players in the NBA had two playoff games this year where he scored less than 10 points on three for 10 and four for twelve shooting respectively.

Are these guys quitters too? I don't want to pick on a single poster because this petulant child emoting isn't unique to one guy - its the reason gamethreads suck.

Its understandable to be frustrated with performances but to draw conclusions from one game is silly. Its not analysis - its a hot take.

Kyrie Irving had a bad game, partially because the opposing team adjusted and effectively took him out of his rhythm and, as k-factory notes, the C's were chasing the Bucks all game and who were bombing away (42.6% from three is pretty damn tough to recover from when the team is throwing up ~ 50 deep shots). This happens in the NBA playoffs.

But calling Irving weak who goes somewhere else ignores the guys body of work - he hit the biggest shot in a deciding championship game where his team had to claw its way back from 3-1 deficit.

Also, it bears saying that LeBron James is neither weak nor a quitter. The guy may have his flaws but the guy has dragged rosters that would dwell in cellars were it not from him deep into the playoffs.

You should post better.

So was it "pure speculation" or not?

Not to pile on but LeBron carried teams with A.Jamison and Mo Williams as his 2/3 deep into the playoffs then left Miami to return home to a 33-win Cavs team prior to bringing a championship to Cleveland.

We’ve seen Kyrie pull out epic playoff performances both in Cleveland and here (G1). He’s like the last guy I’d call a quitter.

I may change my screen name to Nostradamus.

 

[Captaincoop]

It's still his decision on what to do after that. Which is still a franchise altering decision if you continue to pursue AD and try to sign Kemba Walker or something.

I don't think there's a scenario where the C's have cap room to sign Kemba or any other big free agent.

They're looking at adding a solid veteran or two if they let Kyrie walk, not a star.

 

[lexrageorge]

I don't think there's a scenario where the C's have cap room to sign Kemba or any other big free agent.

They're looking at adding a solid veteran or two if they let Kyrie walk, not a star.

I outlined in the 2019 offseason thread where the Celtics may be able to free up enough cap room for a max player. But the remaining roster is unlikely to be attractive enough for a max player looking to come to a contending team. In fact, it would probably be a roster that struggles to qualify for the playoffs, as they would be replacing Horford, Baynes, Morris, Rozier, etc. with minimum salary players and draft picks.

 

[JimD]

I don't want Kyrie back under any circumstance. The thought of rewarding his antics with a max contract is nauseating to consider, plus he has actively hurt the value of the younger guys who are potential trade assets. We've been fortunate to celebrate enough championships in this town that we do not need to sell our souls to root for a guy like him just because of the laundry. Let Ainge and Stevens go back to the drawing board. If it takes another decade-plus, so be it.

I realize how hot-takey I sound, but I don't care. Rooting for professional sports teams is supposed to be fun and this Celtics team was the least fun fan experience I've had in a long, long time.

 

[Captaincoop]

I agree completely with what you're saying. I understand how as the GM, Danny may have to try and patch it up - that's probably the most likely path to win a championship, and that's his job. But as a fan, I am 100% done with Irving and look forward to rooting against him.

The Kyrie Irving Celtics era worked out about as well as the Jack Parkman Indians era.

 

[TheoShmeo]

Kyrie is a great talent.

And I am not sure I would follow the Cs all that closely if he came back, which he certainly will not.

My guess is that he said he was returning excitedly and without having planned to say it, and never really was. Pending free agency isn’t always a problem; I think in this case it was.

And that Irving is just a horrible team leader.

On to the next.

 

[DJnVa]

I outlined in the 2019 offseason thread where the Celtics may be able to free up enough cap room for a max player.

You did, but everyone else says it is not possible, so I'm not sure where the disconnect is.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I agree completely with what you're saying. I understand how as the GM, Danny may have to try and patch it up - that's probably the most likely path to win a championship, and that's his job. But as a fan, I am 100% done with Irving and look forward to rooting against him.

The Kyrie Irving Celtics era worked out about as well as the Jack Parkman Indians era.

A question for the group: Is the behavior of Kyrie similar or different to what Paul Pierce did in 2005?

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

A question for the group: Is the behavior of Kyrie similar or different to what Paul Pierce did in 2005?

Paul Pierce at least played well in the series.

The comparison isn't totally unfair though, both are players who aren't enough on their own to lead an elite team so if you can't pull off a massive trade for a top 5 player to pair with him, then you should probably explore other options.

 

[Captaincoop]

A question for the group: Is the behavior of Kyrie similar or different to what Paul Pierce did in 2005?

That was a long time ago, so maybe I'm forgetting some of the specifics. But Paul Pierce was a homegrown guy who was asked to carry a team with pretty much zero talent around him, never really had good mentorship in the game (his veteran teammates to that point were guys like Antoine Walker, Vin Baker, and Gary Payton) and who acted immature and cracked. I don't recall ever questioning whether Paul Pierce was intentionally losing a game.

Kyrie was brought here to lead a team loaded with talent, and instead burned the whole place down while hemming and hawing about free agency and taking every opportunity to tell us how amazing he is and how deficient his teammates are.

I don't see much in the way of similarity, other than they both acted like assholes after playoff games.

 

[lexrageorge]

You did, but everyone else says it is not possible, so I'm not sure where the disconnect is.

Not exactly sure who everyone else is, but I did admit I may be off by a couple of million, which may be enough to make them $1M or so shy of the max. And it is a theoretical calculation anyway; from a practical standpoint, it's truly not possible.

 

[Big John]

Kyrie is a great talent.

And I am not sure I would follow the Cs all that closely if he came back, which he certainly will not.

Are you sure about that? I don't claim to be Nostradamus, but I could easily see a scenario in which the free agent market for Kyrie is not quite as strong as he thought it would be following that abysmal performance against the Bucks.

So he calls Ainge and says, "Danny, it's your lucky day. I've decided to stay in Boston after all."

 

[lexrageorge]

Are you sure about that? I don't claim to be Nostradamus, but I could easily see a scenario in which the free agent market for Kyrie is not quite as strong as he thought it would be following that abysmal performance against the Bucks.

So he calls Ainge and says, "Danny, it's your lucky day. I've decided to stay in Boston after all."

His playoff performance will not affect his market. He is getting the max. That's just how the NBA works these days.

 

[Devizier]

Kyrie will get a max deal.

 

[Captaincoop]

I don't think there are a bunch of teams out there looking to add max Kyrie Irving, but he's going to come as a package deal with some of his pals and bring instant relevance to some crap franchise (cough KNICKS cough) and that will be appealing to those types of franchises.

 

[HowBoutDemSox]

Are you sure about that? I don't claim to be Nostradamus, but I could easily see a scenario in which the free agent market for Kyrie is not quite as strong as he thought it would be following that abysmal performance against the Bucks.

So he calls Ainge and says, "Danny, it's your lucky day. I've decided to stay in Boston after all."

If you don’t think the Lakers, Clippers, Knicks and Nets don’t fax his agent a max contract offer as soon as it’s legal to (and will have been making overtures before then), you’re off your rocker.

 

[RedOctober3829]

That was a long time ago, so maybe I'm forgetting some of the specifics. But Paul Pierce was a homegrown guy who was asked to carry a team with pretty much zero talent around him, never really had good mentorship in the game (his veteran teammates to that point were guys like Antoine Walker, Vin Baker, and Gary Payton) and who acted immature and cracked. I don't recall ever questioning whether Paul Pierce was intentionally losing a game.

Kyrie was brought here to lead a team loaded with talent, and instead burned the whole place down while hemming and hawing about free agency and taking every opportunity to tell us how amazing he is and how deficient his teammates are.

I don't see much in the way of similarity, other than they both acted like assholes after playoff games.

I'm not directing this at you, but in general for everybody who feels this way about Kyrie.

Why is Kyrie responsible for the shitty attitudes of other players? From the sounds of it the younger guys had issues with Irving and Hayward playing over them. They needed to get over themselves and really never did. If they didn't think their roles would have changed because of those two coming back, then they were delusional. I wonder if Kyrie and Stevens tried to make things work early on and were told to go F themselves so it just got progressively worse from there. For example, if Rozier thought he'd have the same role and get the same amount of shots as when Kyrie was hurt at the end of the year then he was delusional.

 

[Captaincoop]

I'm not directing this at you, but in general for everybody who feels this way about Kyrie.

Why is Kyrie responsible for the shitty attitudes of other players? From the sounds of it the younger guys had issues with Irving and Hayward playing over them. They needed to get over themselves and really never did. If they didn't think their roles would have changed because of those two coming back, then they were delusional. I wonder if Kyrie and Stevens tried to make things work early on and were told to go F themselves so it just got progressively worse from there. For example, if Rozier thought he'd have the same role and get the same amount of shots as when Kyrie was hurt at the end of the year then he was delusional.

Keeping it simple - last night the season was on the line. I saw Brown, Tatum, and Smart - and basically everyone on the floor except Kyrie - scrapping to pull off a win. It wasn't perfect, and the shooting was abominable, but there was legitimate, desperate effort on defense. Meanwhile Kyrie played like it was a pickup game at the Y.

The season was rough, and there was blame to go around for why they won 49 instead of 59 games...but last night's performance by Kyrie, and really his performance over the last four games - were unforgivable.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

This season went off the rails when Kyrie made those comments in New York about possibly not returning, and followed them up with the ridiculous apology to LeBron which was really a call out of his young teammates who were trying to establish themselves as stars in the league.

The fact is that Kyrie couldn't back up all his talk about being so great on the court in the playoffs. The guy who said a team he is on will be difficult to beat four games out of seven lost four in a row, by an average of 18+ points. In the four games, he shot 25-83, 30%, 5-27 from three, 18.5%/ He took 21 shots in a close out game and put up only 15 points, and manages only one assist. Minus 25 in a close out game, with a minus 7, minus 6 and a minus 21 in the four losses. That's an average of minus 14.5 when Kyrie was on the court, and minus 4 when he was off.

So you're saying that the 10-10 start was okay?

I'm not sure that this season was ever on the rails, well other than the first game.

 

[Big John]

His playoff performance will not affect his market. He is getting the max. That's just how the NBA works these days.

But from whom? Maybe Durant decides he does not want to play in NY. Or maybe Kyrie doesn't want to play in LA. He's only getting a max deal from Boston or one of the teams with enough cap space. It's a constrained market, especially now that there is no financial incentive in a sign-and-trade.

 

[DJnVa]

Not exactly sure who everyone else is, but I did admit I may be off by a couple of million, which may be enough to make them $1M or so shy of the max. And it is a theoretical calculation anyway; from a practical standpoint, it's truly not possible.

Every article I've seen during the season has said the Celtics cannot sign a max player.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Every article I've seen during the season has said the Celtics cannot sign a max player.

They won't be able to acquire a max guy with cap space this offseason. They can re-sign Kyrie using Bird rights and trade for one.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

I'm not sure if it's "quitting" or just horrible decision-making but @BrianTRobb on twitter has been posting clips of Kyrie on D in games 4 and 5 and they're pretty awful:

You can read more if you subscribe to Boston Sports Journal but I'll post a couple tweets:



It seemed like they totally lacked communication and yes, effort on D when Kyrie was out there and last night it totally changed in my view when he was on the bench. The shots not falling is one thing and I don't expect Kyrie to be Gary Payton on the defensive end, but playing like that, especially in game 4 when the game and series was within reach, is unacceptable.

In the previous game he picked up Giannis in the half court at least 2-3 times(not off switches). It was bizarre. It's almost like he thinks leadership is him taking on the other team's best player in a David vs. Goliath mismatch; showing everyone he's got heart and that he's stepping up for the team.

Dude needs a lifecoach or some shit. Someone that can look him in the eye (Collinsworth?) and say "You're good, but you kinda suck. Wake the fuck up before your career goes down the tubes." Perhaps there's a David Price-ian redemption arc somewhere in there. This whole situation sucks.

 

[lexrageorge]

But from whom? Maybe Durant decides he does not want to play in NY. Or maybe Kyrie doesn't want to play in LA. He's only getting a max deal from Boston or one of the teams with enough cap space. It's a constrained market, especially now that there is no financial incentive in a sign-and-trade.

Kyrie is still considered a Top 25 player in the league, and there will be enough teams that can sign him outright. And if he really doesn't want to go to NY or LA (which would be really surprising), then another team would be in position to do a sign-and-trade. His agent is good enough to ensure he'll get a max wherever he goes.

The conventional wisdom among GM's will be that Kyrie did not have a great supporting cast, and what he did have was exposed by a horrible matchup against a 60-win team that has a reasonable chance of winning it all right now.

 

[DJnVa]

Kyrie is still considered a Top 25 player in the league, and there will be enough teams that can sign him outright. And if he really doesn't want to go to NY or LA (which would be really surprising), then another team would be in position to do a sign-and-trade. His agent is good enough to ensure he'll get a max wherever he goes.

The conventional wisdom among GM's will be that Kyrie did not have a great supporting cast, and what he did have was exposed by a horrible matchup against a 60-win team that has a reasonable chance of winning it all right now.

Nets are betting favorites (+250), then Knicks (+300), then Celtics (+350).

 

[Big John]

I'm sure Deangelo Russell and Spencer Dinwiddie will be delighted to welcome Kyrie into the fold.

 

[TripleOT]

Not only was Kyrie horrible in game 5, but he helped ignite the blowout in the third quarter. He starts out by bricking two threes where he just dribbles down the court and fires. Was the plan coming out of halftime for Kyrie to just fire away, or was it to move the ball and attack the rim? It looked to me like everyone else on the court was moving the ball and attacking, while Kyrie was gunning all by himself. Then, after a flurry of Celtics grittiness gets them into the bonus and cuts the lead to 9, he lets Bledsoe have an easy 16 footer, and follows it up with a horrible turnover that leads to a Giannis runout dunk. The other Celtics battled for a few more minutes, but the moment to get back into that game had passed, and Kyrie was the reason why.

If you were trying to sabotage a game, or if you were trying to be a hero, you play like Kyrie did in that third quarter. When his team needed him the most this season, he screwed them.

 

[Big John]

If you were trying to sabotage a game, or if you were trying to be a hero, you play like Kyrie did in that third quarter. When his team needed him the most this season, he screwed them.

Yes, and if memory serves, Tatum had taken exactly three shots (yes, missed them all) at that point and Kyrie was something like 5-19.

The person who is going to be sending faxes to Ainge is Tatum's agent, asking for a trade. Tatum, whose frustration was obvious throughout the Bucks series, wants absolutely no part of playing with Kyrie. Nothing could be more obvious.

 

[ehaz]

If Kyrie wants the Nets, wouldn’t a sign and trade actually make sense for all parties?

Kyrie gets the extra ~$50M or so that the Celtics can offer and other teams can’t.

Brooklyn is then able to pay Kyrie more than any other team he wants to go to and can clear out cap by sign and trading RFA D’Angelo Russell.

Celtics don’t completely lose out on talent and can either run out a fun and interesting DLo/Tatum/Brown/Hayward/Horford lineup or make a move for AD.

If the Nets rumors are true, the expectation isn’t that DLo and Kyrie would play together, right?

 

[Big John]

The sign and trade rules don't work that way any more. Kyrie can't get a penny more in a sign and trade than he could as a free agent. They are limited to the same 4 year deal, the same starting money and the same raises.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

So you're saying that the 10-10 start was okay?

I'm not sure that this season was ever on the rails, well other than the first game.

If ever they looked good for long stretches this year it was 100% schedule-related. After the 10-10 start they rolled off 8 straight against lotto teams. They only won 5 games against +.500 teams between Thanksgiving and March. Suddenly people started pointing out their top 10 offensive and defensive metrics like it meant something.

 

[DJnVa]

I'm sure Deangelo Russell and Spencer Dinwiddie will be delighted to welcome Kyrie into the fold.

They get Kyrie they’re not keeping Russell.

 

[DJnVa]

He’s gone. The whispers have started.


And Shams saying the Kyrie/CBS relationship has frayed.

 

[DJnVa]

 

[luckiestman]

Starting to feel like we are going to get a good old fashion Boston media massacre of a guy leaving town. This time I can’t say I’m against it.

 

[JCizzle]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26702069/kyrie-irving-failed-leadership-tells-story-celtics-failed-season

Details the blow up after the Orlando game in more detail than I've seen before. The knives are indeed out.

 

[Big John]

They get Kyrie they’re not keeping Russell.

Russell is better than Kyrie, and cheaper, too. For starters, Russell is an excellent and willing passer, not a selfish pig like Kyrie. Sean Marks is nobody's fool. If they part with Russell, it has to be for the frontcourt help the Nets sorely need.

The Knicks have room to pay both Kyrie and Durant the Max. It's more problematic for the Nets if the cap stays at $109M.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Russell is better thank Kyrie, and cheaper, too. For starters, Russell is an excellent and willing passer, not a selfish pig like Kyrie. Sean Marks is nobody's fool. If they part with Russell, it has to be for the frontcourt help the Nets sorely need.

The Knicks have room to pay both Kyrie and Durant the Max. It's more problematic for the Nets if the cap stays at $109M.

Kyrie had a career high in assists this year.

 

[Light-Tower-Power]

His first game in Boston is going to be the hottest ticket of the year. The hatchet jobs are coming.

 

[lexrageorge]

Starting to feel like we are going to get a good old fashion Boston media massacre of a guy leaving town. This time I can’t say I’m against it.

This story is way too juicy and has enough national attention that it will go well beyond a "Boston media" massacre. There will be plenty of folks willing to speak on and off the record. I'll actually enjoy the popcorn show this time around, and I say that was one of those that was an ardent supporter of Team Kyrie over Team Byrie.