Byerie Irving? Do you want Kyrie back?

What are your thoughts on Kyrie?

  • I want him back on max deal no matter what

    Votes: 60 19.5%
  • I want him back on max deal ONLY if AD is also coming

    Votes: 85 27.6%
  • I’m done with him and don’t want him back under any circumstances

    Votes: 109 35.4%
  • Not sure - I want to see how the playoffs go first

    Votes: 54 17.5%

  • Total voters
    308
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Big John

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If Ainge wants to win another championship, he will let Kyrie go (if he can't engineer a sign and trade), find a decent veteran pg to pair with Smart, do his best to unload Hayward's salary, and in any event let Tatum, Brown, Horford and Smart play basketball instead of standing around watching Kyrie dribble. For the bench, Jared Dudley wouldn't be a bad addition. Neither would be George over-the-Hill, who is schooling Kyrie about how to play intelligent playoff basketball.

And he'll draft Sekou Doumbouya instead of some mediocre crap role player with no upside.

Please don't misconstrue my anger as pessimism.
 
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soxin6

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If Ainge wants to win another championship, he will let Kyrie go (if he can't engineer a sign and trade), find a decent veteran pg to pair with Smart, do his best to unload Hayward's salary, and in any event let Tatum, Brown, Horford and Smart play basketball instead of standing around watching Kyrie dribble. For the bench, Jared Dudley wouldn't be a bad addition. Neither would be George over-the-Hill, who is schooling Kyrie about how to play intelligent playoff basketball.

And he'll draft Sekou Doumbouya instead of some mediocre crap role player with no upside.

Please don't misconstrue my anger as pessimism.
You have been calling in the Celtics to dump Hayward most of the season and that isn’t likely to happen. Everyone can agree that he has struggled this season and that he has been bad in this series, but he has a lot of company on the list of Celtics players that have been horrible against the Bucks. No team is going to take on that contract unless Hayward shows progress and then the Celtics would likely want to keep him. It also sends a bad message to the rest of the league if the Celtics dump Hayward because he isn’t progressing after his injury after the way that everything happened with Thomas. Ainge might agree that your suggestion is best, but there has been zero indication that he does.
 

the moops

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If Ainge wants to win another championship, he will let Kyrie go (if he can't engineer a sign and trade), find a decent veteran pg to pair with Smart, do his best to unload Hayward's salary, and in any event let Tatum, Brown, Horford and Smart play basketball instead of standing around watching Kyrie dribble. For the bench, Jared Dudley wouldn't be a bad addition. Neither would be George over-the-Hill, who is schooling Kyrie about how to play intelligent playoff basketball.
This plan seems like a pretty good way to for sure not win a championship. I think you are confusing who you seem to like as players vs who actually is good enough to win
 

Big John

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Ainge isn't going to follow my advice. He's going to resign Kyrie for $200M, trade a bundle of assets for one year of AD, and then punt when it doesn't work out.

I can see it coming and that's why I'm angry.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Ainge isn't going to follow my advice. He's going to resign Kyrie for $200M, trade a bundle of assets for one year of AD, and then punt when it doesn't work out.

I can see it coming and that's why I'm angry.
Let me ask you a question: What, in Danny Ainge's body of work, leads you to believe he will make shortsighted moves that will ultimately cost the team? Because from where I sit, Ainge and his staff have done a pretty fantastic job rebuilding on the fly from the Pierce/Garnett/Allen edition of the Celtics.

Do you honestly think you have more insight on how to build a championship team than Danny Ainge?
 

Big John

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And that’s also why anyone with a level head right now disagrees.
If he resigns Kyrie, the Celtics are screwed, and the consensus here seems to be that Ainge will try to do that.

Hey, I'm not going to be paying the repeater tax for the Kyrie shitshow. Wyc Grousbeck is.
 

Eddie Jurak

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If Ainge wants to win another championship, he will let Kyrie go (if he can't engineer a sign and trade), find a decent veteran pg to pair with Smart, do his best to unload Hayward's salary, and in any event let Tatum, Brown, Horford and Smart play basketball instead of standing around watching Kyrie dribble. For the bench, Jared Dudley wouldn't be a bad addition. Neither would be George over-the-Hill, who is schooling Kyrie about how to play intelligent playoff basketball.

And he'll draft Sekou Doumbouya instead of some mediocre crap role player with no upside.

Please don't misconstrue my anger as pessimism.
Letting Kyrie go is acceptable, because Kyrie appears to want to be gone. Trying to unload Hayward would be a mistake loaded with unintended negative consequences, and it would also be premature.
 

Captaincoop

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If he resigns Kyrie, the Celtics are screwed, and the consensus here seems to be that Ainge will try to do that.

Hey, I'm not going to be paying the repeater tax for the Kyrie shitshow. Wyc Grousbeck is.
I completely understand where you're coming from, and like you, I've seen enough of Kyrie to want him gone just because I think he's pretty clearly not working with this roster and this coach (and going into the season I liked this roster and this coach a lot).

However...because the team loses a max salary slot and can't really replace his production if he walks, it's also understandable that Danny is going to do everything possible to patch the situation up before July 1 OR to reshuffle pieces around him to keep him around and have a championship contender.

If he walks, we are rebuilding. There are some nice pieces in place, but it's a rebuild, and one without an immediate Alpha or Beta star. So while we don't feel great about it either, if we want a championship in the next few years we've got to trust Danny to at least take a crack at keeping Irving.

I trust him. I'm fine moving on and retooling, but if he thinks he can fix it, I'll be back on board in October.
 

Toe Nash

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If he walks, we are rebuilding. There are some nice pieces in place, but it's a rebuild, and one without an immediate Alpha or Beta star. So while we don't feel great about it either, if we want a championship in the next few years we've got to trust Danny to at least take a crack at keeping Irving.

I trust him. I'm fine moving on and retooling, but if he thinks he can fix it, I'll be back on board in October.
Rebuilding seems like a strong word. They only have Horford for one and Hayward for two more seasons. A lot of course depends on who is available as a FA or in trade and whether they'd come here, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that 2019-20 is a rebuilding year but by 20-21 they could be out of Horford's deal, have one year left on Hayward's (who maybe is a better player at this point), and have a Smart / Brown / Tatum / Hayward core plus whatever they can add (minus Tatum if they trade him for a piece). That seems like a decent starting place and I don't think it would necessarily take a few years to get to championship caliber - it could be just one or two seasons (plus by the end of season two, Giannis is a FA...).

Again, all this depends on a star becoming available (or, admittedly less likely, Tatum taking a leap). But that seems to be happening with some frequency these days and I'd like to be ready to pounce rather than tied to Kyrie.

As for AD, and forgive me because I haven't been following this closely, but why are we assuming that he would only come here if Kyrie were here? Has he said anything to this effect? Is it because we're assuming he'd want to go to LA otherwise? Just because they have no way to add another max player this year?

I feel like if AD comes here without Kyrie, and they add some good role players (who would likely want to play with AD) that roster could give Milwaukee a run next year, and then they would have space to add a star next offseason. Is that crazy?
 

lexrageorge

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Rebuilding seems like a strong word. They only have Horford for one and Hayward for two more seasons. A lot of course depends on who is available as a FA or in trade and whether they'd come here, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that 2019-20 is a rebuilding year but by 20-21 they could be out of Horford's deal, have one year left on Hayward's (who maybe is a better player at this point), and have a Smart / Brown / Tatum / Hayward core plus whatever they can add (minus Tatum if they trade him for a piece). That seems like a decent starting place and I don't think it would necessarily take a few years to get to championship caliber - it could be just one or two seasons (plus by the end of season two, Giannis is a FA...).

Again, all this depends on a star becoming available (or, admittedly less likely, Tatum taking a leap). But that seems to be happening with some frequency these days and I'd like to be ready to pounce rather than tied to Kyrie.

As for AD, and forgive me because I haven't been following this closely, but why are we assuming that he would only come here if Kyrie were here? Has he said anything to this effect? Is it because we're assuming he'd want to go to LA otherwise? Just because they have no way to add another max player this year?

I feel like if AD comes here without Kyrie, and they add some good role players (who would likely want to play with AD) that roster could give Milwaukee a run next year, and then they would have space to add a star next offseason. Is that crazy?
Here's the thing with Davis: the Celtics could get him for one year no matter what Kyrie does. The conventional wisdom, however, is that AD + Kyrie plus Horford/Brown/Smart (assuming he sticks) and possibly an improved Hayward makes for a true contender. And shooting for true contention status is really the only reason for Ainge to cash his chips and gamble on Davis for a year.

Otherwise, the risk is very real that the Celtics with Davis (but minus Kyrie) win 50-55 games and lose in the conference semis. And Davis getting impatient with waiting out his prime seasons decides to bolt for greener pastures, at which point it really doesn't matter whether it's LA, NY, or Winnipeg. The other bit of info is that Davis hired Klutch Sports Agency, who's made it clear that they took him as a client in order to get him to team up with LeBron in LA.

Ainge's big decision is to determine whether Kyrie + Davis is the right fit. Kyrie is light years better than Monta Ellis, and is also a significant upgrade to Holiday. But there is definitely some dissension in the ranks of the Cellar as to whether those 2 players plus the remaining roster would be a true contender. If he does decide that they are, he then has to convince Kyrie to stay. Because if he's not confident that Kyrie stays, what he offers the Pelicans for Davis will drop dramatically (assuming any offer at all at that point).
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Rebuilding seems like a strong word. They only have Horford for one and Hayward for two more seasons. A lot of course depends on who is available as a FA or in trade and whether they'd come here, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that 2019-20 is a rebuilding year but by 20-21 they could be out of Horford's deal, have one year left on Hayward's (who maybe is a better player at this point), and have a Smart / Brown / Tatum / Hayward core plus whatever they can add (minus Tatum if they trade him for a piece). That seems like a decent starting place and I don't think it would necessarily take a few years to get to championship caliber - it could be just one or two seasons (plus by the end of season two, Giannis is a FA...).

Again, all this depends on a star becoming available (or, admittedly less likely, Tatum taking a leap). But that seems to be happening with some frequency these days and I'd like to be ready to pounce rather than tied to Kyrie.

As for AD, and forgive me because I haven't been following this closely, but why are we assuming that he would only come here if Kyrie were here? Has he said anything to this effect? Is it because we're assuming he'd want to go to LA otherwise? Just because they have no way to add another max player this year?

I feel like if AD comes here without Kyrie, and they add some good role players (who would likely want to play with AD) that roster could give Milwaukee a run next year, and then they would have space to add a star next offseason. Is that crazy?
The Cs really have no room to add an impact FA. Its Irving or bust for that slot.
 

Ed Hillel

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Bust.

Keep the future money free, at least. Kyrie is a pain in the ass and will probably be a significantly less effective player by 30.

If you can keep him and get Davis, I guess you gotta try, though...Ugh.
 

The Needler

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Here's the thing with Davis: the Celtics could get him for one year no matter what Kyrie does. The conventional wisdom, however, is that AD + Kyrie plus Horford/Brown/Smart (assuming he sticks) and possibly an improved Hayward makes for a true contender. And shooting for true contention status is really the only reason for Ainge to cash his chips and gamble on Davis for a year.

Otherwise, the risk is very real that the Celtics with Davis (but minus Kyrie) win 50-55 games and lose in the conference semis. And Davis getting impatient with waiting out his prime seasons decides to bolt for greener pastures, at which point it really doesn't matter whether it's LA, NY, or Winnipeg. The other bit of info is that Davis hired Klutch Sports Agency, who's made it clear that they took him as a client in order to get him to team up with LeBron in LA.

Ainge's big decision is to determine whether Kyrie + Davis is the right fit. Kyrie is light years better than Monta Ellis, and is also a significant upgrade to Holiday. But there is definitely some dissension in the ranks of the Cellar as to whether those 2 players plus the remaining roster would be a true contender. If he does decide that they are, he then has to convince Kyrie to stay. Because if he's not confident that Kyrie stays, what he offers the Pelicans for Davis will drop dramatically (assuming any offer at all at that point).
I’m pretty sure they took him as a client because he’s going to generate tens of millions of dollars of income for them. Are you suggesting that if he told them he only wanted to play for Boston, or New Orleans, or anyplace LeBron wasn’t, they’d have declined to represent him? Don’t be silly.
 

RedOctober3829

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Bust.

Keep the future money free, at least. Kyrie is a pain in the ass and will probably be a significantly less effective player by 30.

If you can keep him and get Davis, I guess you gotta try, though...Ugh.
It's funny how ecstatic everyone was to get Kyrie, was excited when he said he'd re-sign, and now want to ship him out of town. The way this season turned out was certainly not all on him. People need to suck it up and realize that players like him don't grow on trees and all of a sudden they'd replace Kyrie with a similar player. The Celtics need him in the fold in order to win their next championship because they won't be able to replace him for cap reasons that others have pointed out. It's apparent that the roster needs tweaking, but getting rid of Kyrie is not going to suddenly make them better.
 

lexrageorge

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I’m pretty sure they took him as a client because he’s going to generate tens of millions of dollars of income for them. Are you suggesting that if he told them he only wanted to play for Boston, or New Orleans, or anyplace LeBron wasn’t, they’d have declined to represent him? Don’t be silly.
No, I never suggested that. Go back and read what I wrote.
 

DJnVa

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It's apparent that the roster needs tweaking, but getting rid of Kyrie is not going to suddenly make them better.
Sure. But at the end of the day it's *HIS* choice, not the Celtics. And, for whatever reason, he *seems* not very happy right now.

Perhaps he and Ainge have talked and are in a good place going forward, but I would think that if that was the case he wouldn't look so miserable now.
 

The Needler

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No, I never suggested that. Go back and read what I wrote.
Don’t just say go back and read what I wrote. Explain yourself. I bolded your exact words. Unless “in order to” has some secret meaning I don’t know about, you suggested exactly that.
 

nighthob

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I’m pretty sure they took him as a client because he’s going to generate tens of millions of dollars of income for them. Are you suggesting that if he told them he only wanted to play for Boston, or New Orleans, or anyplace LeBron wasn’t, they’d have declined to represent him? Don’t be silly.
Davis hired LeBron to be his new agent. If all you're looking for is a max deal, you really don't need to hire LeBron's employees to negotiate that deal for you. So the hiring is pretty indicative of Davis' preferences.
 

RedOctober3829

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Sure. But at the end of the day it's *HIS* choice, not the Celtics. And, for whatever reason, he *seems* not very happy right now.

Perhaps he and Ainge have talked and are in a good place going forward, but I would think that if that was the case he wouldn't look so miserable now.
I know it's his choice to leave or not. I'm just surprised everybody wants to let him leave and thinks it's best for the franchise going forward. It's not.
 

The Needler

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Davis hired LeBron to be his new agent. If all you're looking for is a max deal, you really don't need to hire LeBron's employees to negotiate that deal for you. So the hiring is pretty indicative of Davis' preferences.
Putting aside the fact that you’re ignoring the other work agents do, specifically with off-court opportunities, Davis’s purported preferences aren’t at issue right now. The point I raised is that Klutch didn’t agree to represent Davis “in order to” or “for the purpose of” teaming him with LeBron. They did so because he’s a no-brainer cash cow, wherever he wants to go.
 

Big John

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However...because the team loses a max salary slot and can't really replace his production if he walks, it's also understandable that Danny is going to do everything possible to patch the situation up before July 1 OR to reshuffle pieces around him to keep him around and have a championship contender..
By "salary slot" I assume you mean the ability to ascend into luxury tax territory by exercising the team's Bird rights on Kyrie. There haven't been salary slots in the CBA since the days of the late Dave Gavitt.

They will never be a championship contender with Irving. As soon as he steps on the floor, the sum is less than the whole of its parts. He takes the air out his teammates.

They will have cap room when Hayward is off the books, not before. Why pay $150M for a team that wins 50 games and goes out in the second round, when you can pay $110M for a team that wins 50 games and goes out in the second round, but a team where the young players (e.g. Tatum and Brown) are developing instead of stagnating?
 

nighthob

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I know it's his choice to leave or not. I'm just surprised everybody wants to let him leave and thinks it's best for the franchise going forward. It's not.
I don't really want him to leave, I just think he and Durant made the decision to team up some time ago. And as matters stand I don't think it will be here.

In fairness to the people that don't want to re-sign him, though, there is a risk that if you max him out the deal could look pretty Wallian in the out years.

Now I've always expected that his next deal would be a three year one with an opt out after year two so that he moves on to the 35% max at the earliest possible time, but others have cited the injury history as a risk that might encourage him to sign on for the full five year max now.
 

nighthob

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Putting aside the fact that you’re ignoring the other work agents do, specifically with off-court opportunities, Davis’s purported preferences aren’t at issue right now. The point I raised is that Klutch didn’t agree to represent Davis “in order to” or “for the purpose of” teaming him with LeBron. They did so because he’s a no-brainer cash cow, wherever he wants to go.
You mean aside from their yeomanlike work to actually get him to the Lakers and actively damage his prospects of being traded to other teams?
 

Koufax

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It may mean nothing but for odd reasons I happen to know that Kyrie purchased a piece of artwork on line yesterday that was about LA.
 

lovegtm

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There are two separate questions being conflated here, and it seems like everyone is talking past each other. The two questions are:

1. Can you win a championship without multiple players of Kyrie Irving's caliber or better (mostly no).

2. Does Kyrie Irving, for whatever reason, simply not work in Boston? The answer to this is less clear. He definitely looked like he didn't want to be here anymore after Game 4.

As for the "everyone was happy when he wanted to re-sign in the fall"...things change. I'm a huge Kyrie fan, but the personality red flags have really piled up, and it's not worth pretending that those don't exist.
 

RedOctober3829

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There are two separate questions being conflated here, and it seems like everyone is talking past each other. The two questions are:

1. Can you win a championship without multiple players of Kyrie Irving's caliber or better (mostly no).

2. Does Kyrie Irving, for whatever reason, simply not work in Boston? The answer to this is less clear. He definitely looked like he didn't want to be here anymore after Game 4.

As for the "everyone was happy when he wanted to re-sign in the fall"...things change. I'm a huge Kyrie fan, but the personality red flags have really piled up, and it's not worth pretending that those don't exist.
Did his "personality red flags" not exist beforehand too? Everyone knew he was quirky and said weird things. Nobody is pretending they don't exist. The question that remains is this: did Kyrie cause all the in-fighting by himself or were there other factors at hand? It seems to me that players such as Tatum, Brown, and Rozier have their separate agendas as well and very well did contribute to the lack of chemistry. Everyone is quick to jump on Kyrie but not necessarily take the whole situation into it's proper context. My opinion is that the guys that starred in the playoff run last year were pissed that their roles changed and that was the biggest contributor to the lack of cohesion. They were constantly looking for their own offense and the frustration carried over to the defensive end which is why the team defense was so much worse. Kyrie has his issues and they shouldn't be discounted. However, it's very easy to just dump on one guy and not recognize the additional issues surrounding the team. What Danny needs to do is keep Kyrie if he wants to stay and make hard decisions on what young guys he wants here long-term and use the others in trades to improve the roster.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Did his "personality red flags" not exist beforehand too? Everyone knew he was quirky and said weird things. Nobody is pretending they don't exist. The question that remains is this: did Kyrie cause all the in-fighting by himself or were there other factors at hand? It seems to me that players such as Tatum, Brown, and Rozier have their separate agendas as well and very well did contribute to the lack of chemistry. Everyone is quick to jump on Kyrie but not necessarily take the whole situation into it's proper context. My opinion is that the guys that starred in the playoff run last year were pissed that their roles changed and that was the biggest contributor to the lack of cohesion. They were constantly looking for their own offense and the frustration carried over to the defensive end which is why the team defense was so much worse. Kyrie has his issues and they shouldn't be discounted. However, it's very easy to just dump on one guy and not recognize the additional issues surrounding the team. What Danny needs to do is keep Kyrie if he wants to stay and make hard decisions on what young guys he wants here long-term and use the others in trades to improve the roster.
HRB has been focused on this dynamic being a negative for the team all season and in retrospect his concerns appear to be justified. If there is friction, others beside Irving have a part in it too.

As others have noted, some of the roster issues will be resolved just as a function of players like Morris and Rozier moving on (assuming Irving stays).

Looking at it from a different vantage point, how would people feel if Irving bolts and the Cs retain just about everyone else yet chemistry issues persist? Meanwhile, he is getting buckets elsewhere.
 

reggiecleveland

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Since there seems some emotion in this hthread.

My heart tells me I was feeling this way in October of 2004. I hope Kyrie is reading this and thinking "Don't let us win tonight."

Come on Kyrie I want to believe. The most valuable skill in hoops (still) is beating your man. You have been historically good at this. Get in the paint, make your crazy improvised shots, kick it out while screaming "You don't have to shoot it! You can make more than one pass! No I am the guy that dribbles! You are the guys that move the ball! No that doesn't mean you suck. I phrased that poorly earlier in the year! Just move the ball guys!"

Sorry that took a negative turn there.
 

Big John

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The issue is whether or not they can ever be a championship team playing the kind of basketball they play when Kyrie is on the floor. For me the answer is 100% no.

Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Keeping Kyrie and then trying to adjust the pieces around him is just more of the same.
 

Captaincoop

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By "salary slot" I assume you mean the ability to ascend into luxury tax territory by exercising the team's Bird rights on Kyrie. There haven't been salary slots in the CBA since the days of the late Dave Gavitt.

They will never be a championship contender with Irving. As soon as he steps on the floor, the sum is less than the whole of its parts. He takes the air out his teammates.

They will have cap room when Hayward is off the books, not before. Why pay $150M for a team that wins 50 games and goes out in the second round, when you can pay $110M for a team that wins 50 games and goes out in the second round, but a team where the young players (e.g. Tatum and Brown) are developing instead of stagnating?
You're creating a false choice. Obviously the point is that Danny would have to feel like he can put a championship-level group around Kyrie if he's going all out to keep him.

But that's if Kyrie even wants to return, which to be honest, I personally doubt he does.

Don't get me wrong. This year has completely soured me on Kyrie as a player and as a personality. But we've seen unlikely situations get salvaged before - there were times when I absolutely would have refused to believe that John Lackey and David Price could become World Series heroes in Boston.
 

Captaincoop

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Someday I'd love to get the actual scoop on what's going on in this locker room. There are so many possible red flags - are certain guys pissed at Brad for his loyalty to "his guy" Hayward? Are Brown and Tatum upset about being treated by Irving the way he was treated by Lebron? Do Morris and Rozier feel slighted in contract years? Is Kyrie just a shithead?

The answer could very possibly be yes across the board.
 

RedOctober3829

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The issue is whether or not they can ever be a championship team playing the kind of basketball they play when Kyrie is on the floor. For me the answer is 100% no.

Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Keeping Kyrie and then trying to adjust the pieces around him is just more of the same.
There are ball-dominant players that have won championships such as LeBron's Cavs team. LeBron is better than Kyrie of course but it can be done. Let Kyrie be Kyrie and surround him with another star such as Davis and shooters to spread the floor. The style of basketball they play doesn't tend to work because they don't have the amount of good 3-point shooters to make the open 3's.
 

soxin6

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Someday I'd love to get the actual scoop on what's going on in this locker room. There are so many possible red flags - are certain guys pissed at Brad for his loyalty to "his guy" Hayward? Are Brown and Tatum upset about being treated by Irving the way he was treated by Lebron? Do Morris and Rozier feel slighted in contract years? Is Kyrie just a shithead?

The answer could very possibly be yes across the board.
I don't know if we will ever know what the locker room issues were this season, but it seems clear that there were some and it is likely that Ainge is aware of all of them, but hoped that things would work themselves out in the playoffs. That clearly hasn't happened and I am guessing that Ainge realizes that the roster has to change. He doesn't get to control how all of those changes might happen, but it is a good bet that there will be a very different Celtics team on the court in October.
 

soxin6

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There are ball-dominant players that have won championships such as LeBron's Cavs team. LeBron is better than Kyrie of course but it can be done. Let Kyrie be Kyrie and surround him with another star such as Davis and shooters to spread the floor. The style of basketball they play doesn't tend to work because they don't have the amount of good 3-point shooters to make the open 3's.
i am not sure that it will work if the player dominating the ball isn't the best player on the team. AD is better than Kyrie, but will Kyrie be willing to defer? We saw how well things worked in OKC when their best player wasn't the one dominating the ball.
 

RedOctober3829

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i am not sure that it will work if the player dominating the ball isn't the best player on the team. AD is better than Kyrie, but will Kyrie be willing to defer? We saw how well things worked in OKC when their best player wasn't the one dominating the ball.
You've seen how well the Kyrie pick and pop has worked with Horford. Imagine if that was Davis instead of Horford.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
You've seen how well the Kyrie pick and pop has worked with Horford. Imagine if that was Davis instead of Horford.
Obviously AD is a much better player than Horford. But on the pick & pop?

Three point shooting:
Davis:
- 2018-19: 33.1%
- career: 31.4%

Horford:
- 2018-19: 36.0%
- career: 36.8%

Horford is better at the P&P than Davis is - especially because that play is designed to get a clean look at a three pointer.
 

Red Averages

owes you $50
SoSH Member
Apr 20, 2003
9,054
Everytime I think about this issue with emotion I want Kyrie gone and to go back to being able to root for the kids, with great defense and court spacing that was so enjoyable to watch. Then I try to take a step back and think about it. Why was the chemistry for last year, with Kyrie, seemingly so strong? That team was awesome to root for. Frequently they came back from large deficits and won. Even towards the end of this year (and up until game 2 of this series) it seemed like the chemistry was back to clicking and the team was performing well. That leads me to thinking the big difference is just winning vs. losing. I don't think Kyrie reacts well to adversity, that seems pretty clear. However, when there is winning, and he is a large part of that winning, he seems to be fine - at least from the access that we are given. Therefore, the key is to create a winning team and the best way to do that would be for Kyrie to return, trade for AD, and start next year with a top 3 team, and likely favorite in the East.

Having clarity about the future direction of the franchise will also go a long way towards resolving chemistry issues.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
55,298
deep inside Guido territory
Obviously AD is a much better player than Horford. But on the pick & pop?

Three point shooting:
Davis:
- 2018-19: 33.1%
- career: 31.4%

Horford:
- 2018-19: 36.0%
- career: 36.8%

Horford is better at the P&P than Davis is - especially because that play is designed to get a clean look at a three pointer.
Davis is also a bigger threat to go for the lob at the basket off a screen than Horford is. Horford's 3-pt percentage also drastically dropped this year from .429 to .360 which is more in line with his 2015-16 and 2016-17 numbers when he started to shoot 3's more. Is this a one-year thing or is his shooting going to get worse the older he gets? If Davis and Horford are within a few percentage points of each other from 3(and I think AD can get better) and Davis is the superior player everywhere else then that works for me.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
Davis is also a bigger threat to go for the lob at the basket off a screen than Horford is. Horford's 3-pt percentage also drastically dropped this year from .429 to .360 which is more in line with his 2015-16 and 2016-17 numbers when he started to shoot 3's more. Is this a one-year thing or is his shooting going to get worse the older he gets? If Davis and Horford are within a few percentage points of each other from 3(and I think AD can get better) and Davis is the superior player everywhere else then that works for me.
Yeah I’m not arguing which guy is a better player - it’s Davis hands down. But he’s not a better outside shooter than Al is.
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
1,951
Isle of Plum
The issue is whether or not they can ever be a championship team playing the kind of basketball they play when Kyrie is on the floor. For me the answer is 100% no.
I think there are real chemistry issues too but this seems a bit much.

Is that true for all teams in the nba or is his kryptonite only for the Celtics?

He does have a ring and was nails during a championship clinching game...
 

Big John

New Member
Dec 9, 2016
2,086
Sure, if Ainge can find the next prime LeBron, the Celtics could win with Irving. But it would have to be a guy who takes the ball out of Kyrie's hands (like LeBron). Of course, if Ainge finds the next prime LeBron, the Celtics wouldn't need Kyrie to win a championship.
 
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