Byerie Irving? Do you want Kyrie back?

[Auger34]

Thinking logically, I want the guy back. He's a top 20 player and if he leaves that's a big asset just walking out the door with nothing in return. Also, if he left the Celtics would be in limbo where they are good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to actually do anything...and there would be very little avenues for improvement.

However, just going by what we've watched this year and as a fan, the guy is absolutely miserable to root for. Since none of Brad Stevens previous teams were like this (and Hayward is a Stevens acolyte) you can't help but feel that he is the main reason for the team's front runner attitude and tendency to fold at the first sign of adversity. He also never seems to take responsibility for anything but loves to point the finger at his teammates and their "inexperience". It's truly exhausting.

Him walking up the tunnel alone with the game still going, and while he was still supposed to be on the floor according to Scott Souza on Twitter, is just completely par for the course for Kyrie. The game was over and in a vacuum by itself, it really doesn't matter but when you combine it with all of the other shit he has done this year...it really paints a picture of a guy who desperately wants to be a leader but doesn't want any of the responsibility or work that comes with being an actual leader.

All of that summed up, combined with his almost comical lack of self awareness, makes me think he's going to leave and go somewhere else. And it will be incredibly annoying for Celtics fans who followed him throughout this year because he won't own up to any of what happened and will spin it as a "new leadership opportunity"

 

[RedOctober3829]

From a cap standpoint, if Kyrie opts out and leaves where does that leave the Celtics?

 

[BaseballJones]

What's totally going to suck is when he leaves and then absolutely torches the Celtics, hitting huge shot after huge shot. Because we all know that's exactly what's going to happen.

 

[Devizier]

From a cap standpoint, if Kyrie opts out and leaves where does that leave the Celtics?

fucked

 

[Big John]

 

[amfox1]

From a cap standpoint, if Kyrie opts out and leaves where does that leave the Celtics?

BOS is currently at $123.2mm on the 2019-20 cap.

If (1) Kyrie leaves ($21.3mm hold), (2) Horford and Baynes opt-in ($30.1mm/$5.5mm) and (3) Ojeleye is guaranteed ($1.6mm), BOS will be at $101.9mm, or $7.1mm under the cap, excluding draft picks.

Roster: Horford, Baynes, Williams, Hayward, Tatum, Ojeleye, Guershon, Smart, Brown
+ 14, 20, 22, 52
+ various exceptions

 

[lovegtm]

From a cap standpoint, if Kyrie opts out and leaves where does that leave the Celtics?

From a cap standpoint it’s a decent situation (as outlined by amfox1). You have Tatum and Brown extens s coming up, and can now do them without going crazily into the tax.

From a team-building standpoint it sucks, because you blew one of the best assets in the league (the unprotected Brooklyn pick) with nothing to show for it. Ideally you want to use those assets to round out your solid core with a superstar, which is what Danny was trying to do with Kyrie.

Without Kyrie, you’re in a Utah/Indy/Denver type situation, where you need one more young guy to make the leap to alpha to have any shot.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

It's interesting to me that everyone bitching about Kyrie talked about last year's team - while they still had Kyrie - as one of their favorite teams ever to watch.

It's not like Kyrie's game has changed. And Kyrie isn't forcing JT to take long contested 2s or JB to turn the ball over or GH to be a replacement level player, not a max player.

And I also don't think it's Kyrie's fault that Brad was never able to establish this team's identity.

The only thing I'm grateful for is that the Cs are not like the Cavs and if Kyrie leaves, they are certainly still a playoff team next year whether or not they get AD (assuming Horford doesn't leave). And there's still a chance that JB and JT and GH can make leaps - or DA can get AD - and the Cs could contend for a title. Or, DA can get AD.

That's a pretty good fallback position.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Danny will double down on Kyrie and trade for Davis. I don’t think he’s interested in creating the Utah Jazz or Indiana Pacers, two good teams that will perennially get to the playoffs but have no chance at the title.

And I’m not sure he will see Kyrie as a lost cause in Boston. Tatum’s development and Hayward’s health struck me as much bigger problems on the court.

Definitely will be interesting to see what he does this summer.

 

[BaseballJones]

It's interesting to me that everyone bitching about Kyrie talked about last year's team - while they still had Kyrie - as one of their favorite teams ever to watch.

It's not like Kyrie's game has changed. And Kyrie isn't forcing JT to take long contested 2s or JB to turn the ball over or GH to be a replacement level player, not a max player.

And I also don't think it's Kyrie's fault that Brad was never able to establish this team's identity.

The only thing I'm grateful for is that the Cs are not like the Cavs and if Kyrie leaves, they are certainly still a playoff team next year whether or not they get AD (assuming Horford doesn't leave). And there's still a chance that JB and JT and GH can make leaps - or DA can get AD - and the Cs could contend for a title. Or, DA can get AD.

That's a pretty good fallback position.

Great post. The Celtics are so fun to watch when everyone is engaged and Kyrie is making huge, big-time shots. Then his dumb comments are washed over in the spectacle of his individual greatness. Plus, of course, he's winning games for us. When he's sucking and moping and playing disinterested basketball, those comments come off TERRIBLY, and not only is the team not fun to watch, the key figure becomes incredibly unlikable.

 

[NomarsFool]

This series has been a puzzle for me. Kyrie can have bad games, everyone does. It's been surprising how much of a struggle it has been for him. They are a great defensive team, but still surprising. The forcing shots stuff, unfortunately, that is something he doesn't seem to learn from.

 

[RedOctober3829]

It's interesting to me that everyone bitching about Kyrie talked about last year's team - while they still had Kyrie - as one of their favorite teams ever to watch.

It's not like Kyrie's game has changed. And Kyrie isn't forcing JT to take long contested 2s or JB to turn the ball over or GH to be a replacement level player, not a max player.

And I also don't think it's Kyrie's fault that Brad was never able to establish this team's identity.

The only thing I'm grateful for is that the Cs are not like the Cavs and if Kyrie leaves, they are certainly still a playoff team next year whether or not they get AD (assuming Horford doesn't leave). And there's still a chance that JB and JT and GH can make leaps - or DA can get AD - and the Cs could contend for a title. Or, DA can get AD.

That's a pretty good fallback position.

I think people's perceptions of last year's team color their opinion of this year. Last year everyone viewed Boston as a plucky underdog who overachieved because Kyrie and Hayward were out. Even though they were the #1 seed, they were not expected by many to get to Game 7 of the ECF. Horford was awesome, Rozier morphed into an All-Star at times, Tatum was doing things not many rookies had ever done, and Jaylen Brown stepped up his level of play. This year, the expectations were blown through the roof and nothing less than the NBA Finals would be accepted because they were adding 2 All-Star level player. When they struggled throughout the regular season, it all went haywire.

 

[nighthob]

From a cap standpoint, if Kyrie opts out and leaves where does that leave the Celtics?

Hoping that Kyrie and Durant decide to troll LeBron and join the Clippers.

 

[4 6 3 DP]

I am as reactionary as any on here. I usually delete posts before I send them. Occasionally I don't and they get called out. But I just don't see how anything other than a fullcourt press for Kyrie helps this team.

Their issue is the lack of a second star. Right now both Tatum and Brown are excellent #3 pieces who aren't alpha #2, I don't think Brown will get there, Tatum might and might not. You deal either to get Davis and do everything under the sun to keep Kyrie.

 

[Toe Nash]

It's interesting to me that everyone bitching about Kyrie talked about last year's team - while they still had Kyrie - as one of their favorite teams ever to watch.

It's not like Kyrie's game has changed. And Kyrie isn't forcing JT to take long contested 2s or JB to turn the ball over or GH to be a replacement level player, not a max player.

You mean last year's team which way outperformed expectations in the playoffs when...Kyrie was hurt?

I really think the health question is a legitimate, non-emotional reason to think maybe they could be a better team without Kyrie. Even if he's great then what do you do when he misses another playoff run? Is his knee going to get better as he gets near 30?

 

[FredCDobbs]

Kyrie's going to be the biggest Boston sports villain/traitor since who, Roger Clemens? It's going to be raw and nasty.

Danny is also obviously in a very tough spot. After this Kyrie experience, how can Danny not feel a bit burned and feel free to just roll the dice and trade the young core for Anthony Davis, who I do not think wants to come here at all, unless there was perhaps a happy Kyrie here, which there is not.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

You mean last year's team which way outperformed expectations in the playoffs when...Kyrie was hurt?

I really think the health question is a legitimate, non-emotional reason to think maybe they could be a better team without Kyrie. Even if he's great then what do you do when he misses another playoff run? Is his knee going to get better as he gets near 30?

No I mean last year's team that won 16 games in a row when Kyrie was healthy.

I agree with Red October that people had huge expectations after this team went to the EC Finals last year. BUT, remember they got a great draw as the three teams that were the worst matchup for them were in the other bracket - CLE, TOR, and IND - and the Eastern Conference is way better this year than last year.

Last year's team would have no shot against this year's MIL, TOR, or PHI; probably wouldn't have beaten this year's IND team with VO; and I think probably would have lost to this year's ORL.

All those teams got better.

And yes, the Cs got better compared to last year's playoff teams but if you think about it, this year's Cs team isn't better than the team that went on the 16 game winning streak because the only difference from that team is a hobbled GH.

All of the other teams upgraded and upgraded significantly.

The reality of the situation is that the Cs didn't really add two All-Stars. They didn't add any. They got one back and the other one, well, isn't that player right now.

 

[Rusty13]

Chug some salt before reading, given the source:

IB (@incarceratedbob)
5/7/19, 12:41 PM
**BREAKING NBA NEWS**
Source: Celtics players led by Horford and Smart had team meeting that led to some players making Kyrie Irving feel uncomfortable... things are getting spicy in Boston.

 

[JCizzle]

Chug some salt before reading, given the source:

IB (@incarceratedbob)
5/7/19, 12:41 PM
**BREAKING NBA NEWS**
Source: Celtics players led by Horford and Smart had team meeting that led to some players making Kyrie Irving feel uncomfortable... things are getting spicy in Boston.

This guy is still around??? I haven't seen his name in years hahaha.

 

[nighthob]

And yes, the Cs got better compared to last year's playoff teams but if you think about it, this year's Cs team isn't better than the team that went on the 16 game winning streak because the only difference from that team is a hobbled GH.

All year long we've made the observation that the Celtics' rotation looked better when it was down a man (except when that man was Smart, obviously). Largely that man too many was Gordon Hayward, and it sucks because it wasn't his fault that his ankle exploded. But Boston needed to get him as close back to 2017 form as they could this year, which meant, eventually, running the offense through him on the second unit. And this likely hindered development from Tatum and Brown.

Add in two guys in contract years, one of whom had an overinflated view of his own worth, which just kept snowballing as he saw his dreams of being a near max player slipping away, and you have a recipe for a toxic stew. In retrospect, as much as I love Irving, I wish they had sent him to the Clippers at the deadline so that they could enter the retooling phase.

Ultimately, though, the East is going to get Anted up for the foreseeable future. We've entered the "We're all playing to be the second best" phase until Antetokounmpo either gets injured or leaves Milwaukee in free agency.

 

[Nick Kaufman]

It's interesting to me that everyone bitching about Kyrie talked about last year's team - while they still had Kyrie - as one of their favorite teams ever to watch.

It's not like Kyrie's game has changed. And Kyrie isn't forcing JT to take long contested 2s or JB to turn the ball over or GH to be a replacement level player, not a max player.

I think Kyrie has something to do with it. Over the past 20 years, I ve watched many successful Boston teams. Two of their main features were the lack of personal drama - with the possible exception of the Manny Ramirez Sox- and a style of play that relied on solid team play.

This version of the Celtics is the exact opposite of that. Kyrie's endless soliloquies might not be the root of the problem, but it's an issue. When paired with a selfish attitude on the court and players insecure about their place in the team both in terms of contract status and the pecking order, you see what we see on the court: A team that takes many plays off, a team that looks disjointed and without a plan, a team in which in many players just forget about their teammates and go on suicide missions to hoist ill-advised shots. It's just bad basketball.

In my opinion, this is a team in which the dictum addition by subtraction will show its validity next year. I am pretty positive that Morris leaving will help immensely for example. Showing patience and allowing time to take its course will also help as Tatum and Brown will improve and Hayward will also heal more.

I am on the fence about Kyrie. Danny really needs to make sure that the chemistry between him and his teammates is restored and that also, Kyrie can be a good teammate to begin with, otherwise it's not worth it.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

All year long we've made the observation that the Celtics' rotation looked better when it was down a man (except when that man was Smart, obviously). Largely that man too many was Gordon Hayward, and it sucks because it wasn't his fault that his ankle exploded. But Boston needed to get him as close back to 2017 form as they could this year, which meant, eventually, running the offense through him on the second unit. And this likely hindered development from Tatum and Brown.

Add in two guys in contract years, one of whom had an overinflated view of his own worth, which just kept snowballing as he saw his dreams of being a near max player slipping away, and you have a recipe for a toxic stew. In retrospect, as much as I love Irving, I wish they had sent him to the Clippers at the deadline so that they could enter the retooling phase.

Ultimately, though, the East is going to get Anted up for the foreseeable future. We've entered the "We're all playing to be the second best" phase until Antetokounmpo either gets injured or leaves Milwaukee in free agency.

Or Ainge acquires Davis to go with Kyrie and they do battle with the beasts of the East the next few years.

We know where you shake out on this but unless Kyrie has told Ainge he is definitely gone, this is the path the Cs are likely to follow.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Chug some salt before reading, given the source ...

Here's a tip: When you have to start a post with this ... don't make the post

 

[RedOctober3829]

Here's a tip: When you have to start a post with this ... don't make the post

Incarcerated Bob being quoted here is just amazing.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Incarcerated Bob being quoted here is just amazing.

I mean, there enough legitimate talk out there (for example, the Jalen Rose comments) to not bother with the dregs

 

[BaseballJones]

Or Ainge acquires Davis to go with Kyrie and they do battle with the beasts of the East the next few years.

We know where you shake out on this but unless Kyrie has told Ainge he is definitely gone, this is the path the Cs are likely to follow.

Kyrie might like to stay a little more if he knew that AD was likely to come to Boston.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

All year long we've made the observation that the Celtics' rotation looked better when it was down a man (except when that man was Smart, obviously). Largely that man too many was Gordon Hayward, and it sucks because it wasn't his fault that his ankle exploded. But Boston needed to get him as close back to 2017 form as they could this year, which meant, eventually, running the offense through him on the second unit. And this likely hindered development from Tatum and Brown.

Add in two guys in contract years, one of whom had an overinflated view of his own worth, which just kept snowballing as he saw his dreams of being a near max player slipping away, and you have a recipe for a toxic stew. In retrospect, as much as I love Irving, I wish they had sent him to the Clippers at the deadline so that they could enter the retooling phase.

Ultimately, though, the East is going to get Anted up for the foreseeable future. We've entered the "We're all playing to be the second best" phase until Antetokounmpo either gets injured or leaves Milwaukee in free agency.

I'm arguing that quite possibly the entire team except Al Horford has an inflated view of themselves. It's not limited to Rozier. Smart and Morris (this year) certainly have inflated views of themselves; JT and JB certainly want expanded roles for which they may not be ready; Kyrie we've discussed; GH has been all year the primary ball handler on the second unit even though he's clearly not himself.

 

[nighthob]

I'm arguing that quite possibly the entire team except Al Horford has an inflated view of themselves. It's not limited to Rozier. Smart and Morris (this year) certainly have inflated views of themselves; JT and JB certainly want expanded roles for which they may not be ready; Kyrie we've discussed; GH has been all year the primary ball handler on the second unit even though he's clearly not himself.

I just don't care about any of that, performance-wise I think the biggest drag has been the necessity of force-feeding Hayward to help him get back to where he was. And that's not his fault (I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on this, I thought I was). Every time this season they had a game where Tatum, Rozier, Brown, or Morris were out, when everyone else's roles expanded, the offense seemed to run much more smoothly.

I think that Morris' and Rozier's playing for their next contract exacerbated matters, Boston's future would have been a lot brighter had Rozier signed that extension last fall, because he'd go a long way in trade this July. But his failure to sign it, and his growing desperation to prove that he was a near max guy, led to a lot of terrible play, especially given his limited role.

 

[RedOctober3829]

No I mean last year's team that won 16 games in a row when Kyrie was healthy.

I agree with Red October that people had huge expectations after this team went to the EC Finals last year. BUT, remember they got a great draw as the three teams that were the worst matchup for them were in the other bracket - CLE, TOR, and IND - and the Eastern Conference is way better this year than last year.

Last year's team would have no shot against this year's MIL, TOR, or PHI; probably wouldn't have beaten this year's IND team with VO; and I think probably would have lost to this year's ORL.

All those teams got better.

And yes, the Cs got better compared to last year's playoff teams but if you think about it, this year's Cs team isn't better than the team that went on the 16 game winning streak because the only difference from that team is a hobbled GH.

All of the other teams upgraded and upgraded significantly.

The reality of the situation is that the Cs didn't really add two All-Stars. They didn't add any. They got one back and the other one, well, isn't that player right now.

Totally agree that last year's team took advantage of a weaker East. Going into this year, everyone was hyping the Celtics as this 60 win machine where nobody was taking into account the improvements that Toronto/Philly/Milwaukee/Indiana made. Also turns out that the bottom of the East improved too with the strides made by Brooklyn and Orlando.

 

[tbrown_01923]

2020: Patrick Beverly / Marcus Smart backcourt?

 

[mikeford]

Player A over 6 seasons: 21/5/4 on 47% shooting as the 1st or 2nd option of the team

Player B over 6 seasons: 21/5/3 on 45% shooting as the 1st or 2nd option of the team.

Player B is Kyrie Irving.




Player A is Monta Ellis in his final 6 seasons in Golden State (he didn't start in his rookie year but if you factor that in he's 20/4/4)


Kyrie Irving is Monta Ellis with a ring LeBron mostly gave him and the fawning over him as a transformative player is pure wishcasting. He's not as good as people think he is and he's not good enough to be #1 on a title team.

 

[lexrageorge]

Player A over 6 seasons: 21/5/4 on 47% shooting as the 1st or 2nd option of the team

Player B over 6 seasons: 21/5/3 on 45% shooting as the 1st or 2nd option of the team.

Player B is Kyrie Irving.




Player A is Monta Ellis in his final 6 seasons in Golden State (he didn't start in his rookie year but if you factor that in he's 20/4/4)


Kyrie Irving is Monta Ellis with a ring LeBron mostly gave him and the fawning over him as a transformative player is pure wishcasting. He's not as good as people think he is and he's not good enough to be #1 on a title team.

Kyrie has 58.4 win shares over 508 career games; Ellis has 41.9 over 833 games.

Kyrie has a career effective FG% of 52.5% over his career; Ellis has one season where he broke 50%.

While I agree that Kyrie is not, and is unlikely to ever become, a generational player in the same category as Curry, Giannis, et al, he is still way better than Monta Ellis. And he still represents the most likely path for Ainge to acquire a star like Larry Davis or Anthony Fitzgerald.

 

[jmm57]

Player A over 6 seasons: 21/5/4 on 47% shooting as the 1st or 2nd option of the team

Player B over 6 seasons: 21/5/3 on 45% shooting as the 1st or 2nd option of the team.

Player B is Kyrie Irving.




Player A is Monta Ellis in his final 6 seasons in Golden State (he didn't start in his rookie year but if you factor that in he's 20/4/4)


Kyrie Irving is Monta Ellis with a ring LeBron mostly gave him and the fawning over him as a transformative player is pure wishcasting. He's not as good as people think he is and he's not good enough to be #1 on a title team.

That’s great, but Kyrie leads in TS% (.574 to .537), ast% (29.7% to 19.4%) while taking better care of the ball (11.2% turnover to 13.0%).
Kyrie more than doubles Montas WS/48 (.173 to .075) and Kyrie is a +3.9 BPM to Montas -0.5.

I agree with the point that Kyrie is overrated, especially by more casual fans, but he’s also not Monta Ellis.

Edit-beaten to the punch

 

[teddykgb]

AD is a tremendous player but is Kyrie going to let the offense flow through him? Pass and make the cuts and trust that the ball will eventually find him? If all that happens, who will be able to be the third scorer who can have a fairly low usage but reliably make shots? Exchanging the al/Kyrie pick and pop for a Davis Kyrie pick and pop may not even actually make them all that better.

To me this season has clearly highlighted that a player’s ppg and other stats, even what passes for advanced stats in the NBA, can’t just be plugged in to a group. Which we know, of course, but we have just had a pretty dramatic demonstration of some sort of butterfly effect of adding in two really accomplished scorers to a group who maximized its talents. Any plan that says we keep Kyrie and add Davis imo needs to have a real plan for how those pieces are going to fit together to form a coherent basketball team. Kyrie is small and quick but not overly explosive. He needs his big men standing at the perimeter because he can’t have more men in the paint altering shots. He’s one of the best I’ve seen at it but we wouldn’t want Savis bringing his man deep in the paint. It almost feels like Kyrie needs more deadeye 3 point shooters to maximize his dribbling abilities. We have a strange roster in that we have a lot of guys who are decent 3 point shooters but I would say we lack any (and may need up to two) who are just deadeye shooters especially when open. If Kyrie is going to pound it and guys are going to be parked at the three point line then we need more guys who relentlessly drain the kick and stop teams from collapsing so much. Tatum, Brown, Hayward are all natural slasher types of various effectiveness who take that pass and have the instinct to pump fake and drive right back into the defense. One of the reasons why I think Tatum has ended up in so many long 2s is is the open shot if you aren’t standing there expecting to pull that 3 on the catch. Same with Hayward who evolved into curling into runners and ft jumpers because that was the space where he could get a clean shot.

 

[jmm57]

Incarcerated Bob being quoted here is just amazing.

People still use CNN, I think Bob may have been lead on their marathon bombing coverage.

 

[Big John]

Some folks list all of the reasons why he should leave yet conclude that you want to keep him. If he leaves, it's addition by subtraction. The young players don't want to play with him, and Tatum looks like he can't wait until he's traded to NO to get out of this shitshow.

Stevens can't coach him, that's for sure. Kyrie does his own thing, regardless of what the coaching staff drew up. The perfect place for Kyrie is in Los Angeles, reunited with LeBron, so that he can be Robin to the aging batman.

Kyrie and AD won't win a championship any more than Jrue Holiday and AD could win a championship, and in fact when you look at both ends of the floor, Jrue Holiday is a better player.

 

[nighthob]

Player A over 6 seasons: 21/5/4 on 47% shooting as the 1st or 2nd option of the team

Player B over 6 seasons: 21/5/3 on 45% shooting as the 1st or 2nd option of the team.

Is there any reason in particular that you used the most useless shooting number in basketball, rounded it up for Ellis and down for Irving? In terms of eFG% Irving is at .512 for his first six years and Ellis at .494. In terms of scoring efficiency over the same period Irving is at 1.13 pts/poss and Ellis at 1.075.

He was also better by every black box number over that same time frame. Ellis was, arguably, marginally less terrible defensively, but given Irving's superior offensive efficiency there's not much of a comparison.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

All the bitching about Kyrie overlooks the fact that the Celtics are just boned with Gordon Hayward's leg injury rendering him at best a plus rotational player. I don't think another year will help that much, either.

I think it's still too early to judge. His path has been erratic this year, with steps forward and then backward. He hasn't had a healthy offseason since before he broke the ankle. I think next fall is put up or shut up time for him.

 

[chilidawg]

2020: Patrick Beverly / Marcus Smart backcourt?

I'd like someone who can shoot in there somewhere.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Some folks list all of the reasons why he should leave yet conclude that you want to keep him. If he leaves, it's addition by subtraction. The young players don't want to play with him, and Tatum looks like he can't wait until he's traded to NO to get out of this shitshow.

Stevens can't coach him, that's for sure. Kyrie does his own thing, regardless of what the coaching staff drew up. The perfect place for Kyrie is in Los Angeles, reunited with LeBron, so that he can be Robin to the aging batman.

Kyrie and AD won't win a championship any more than Jrue Holiday and AD could win a championship, and in fact when you look at both ends of the floor, Jrue Holiday is a better player.

I want to be clear here - I think you are a valuable poster in this forum and I think when you get into Xs and Os you make some very insightful posts. But this one is pure radio caller drivel imho.

I am assuming you don't know Jayson Tatum personally so the bolded regarding him is just your conjecture based on what you see on your television screen. He absolutely may want to leave Boston or maybe his partner is giving him a hard time or maybe Baynes clogged the toilet before he got in the stall. Or maybe he just looks a certain way. Neither you nor I have any real way of knowing.

The next bolded part is conjecture as well. While I wouldn't be surprised if there was friction between Stevens and Irving (and other players) during various parts of the season, I am guessing that you don't really know at all whether "Stevens can't coach him" or "Kyrie does his own thing". If you do, your source would be welcome.

Finally, the Pelicans have been dysfunctional for a long time now and even two good players aren't enough to go deep in the playoffs - you need a strong supporting cast as well. If your logic held true, guys like Kevin Garnett and even LeBron James shouldn't have been acquired by their new teams because they both fell short with their original squads.

I get that you dislike Irving and that you feel Boston would be better off without him. That is entirely fair. However you then make your case with what is essentially a bunch of conjecture. We should be better than that here imho.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Yes, I still want a top 20 player back.

Yes, I still expect him back.

Yes, I expect AD and Tatum to change teams.

This season was supposed to be better than last, but the goal for this squad was always AD and Kyrie. While the key players are frustrated, I firmly expect that to still happen.

 

[pjheff]

From a team-building standpoint it sucks, because you blew one of the best assets in the league (the unprotected Brooklyn pick) with nothing to show for it.

From a talent on paper standpoint, and an asset management standpoint, Kyrie leaving would undoubtedly be a loss. But if the Celtics were to roll this team back next year without him — overpay if necessary so as to keep Rozier and Morris — do you see the team as worse than 49 wins, a #4 seed, and/or a 2nd round exit?

 

[lovegtm]

From a talent on paper standpoint, and an asset management standpoint, Kyrie leaving would undoubtedly be a loss. But if the Celtics were to roll this team back next year without him — overpay if necessary so as to keep Rozier and Morris — do you see the team as worse than 49 wins, a #4 seed, and/or a 2nd round exit?

They probably do better, just because I’d expect the defense to be a ton more consistent, and I’d expect Hayward to be much better. But they’d still be stuck behind Philly and Milwaukee, competing with Indy to be the top of the 2nd tier (assuming Kawhi leaves).

 

[Big John]

I get that you dislike Irving and that you feel Boston would be better off without him. That is entirely fair. However you then make your case with what is essentially a bunch of conjecture. We should be better than that here imho.

Well, it's partly conjecture. I don't know Tatum personally. Just drawing inferences from the body language. I'm also basing it on the one statistic that matters: wins and losses. They have played bad basketball all year, and their record reflects that.

So bring in AD for a year and see what happens. If it costs you Tatum and draft picks, at least the Celtics might sell some jerseys. But a championship? Don't make me laugh. When AD leaves for the left coast, it will be another rebuild. Some of you youngsters may see another championship, but I probably won't.

If Irving stays, that's five more years of this crap: the losing, the drama, the trade rumors and all of it. I don't have the stomach for it.

 

[pjheff]

They probably do better, just because I’d expect the defense to be a ton more consistent, and I’d expect Hayward to be much better. But they’d still be stuck behind Philly and Milwaukee, competing with Indy to be the top of the 2nd tier (assuming Kawhi leaves).

Are you sure about Philly? What if they lose Butler? Harris?

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Which we know, of course, but we have just had a pretty dramatic demonstration of some sort of butterfly effect of adding in two really accomplished scorers to a group who maximized its talents.

I really wish people would stop with the mantra of "they added two All-Stars" or "two accomplished scorers."

GH this year was not an accomplished scorer and was definitely not an All-Star. I'm a fan of his and I hope he gets back to where he was - so I'm not trying to knock him, just trying to be realistic.

How different would the conversation to begin this season have been if we said, "Well yes we're getting Kyrie back but we're going to have to give 20+ minutes to a guy who's basically going to play at replacement level for 3/4+ of the season plus TOR is getting a top 5 player plus MIL is going to give those minutes that John Henson and Jabari Parker and Thon Maker played to guys who can actually shoot and defend the paint. Oh and Philly to going to add another potential All-Star."

 

[lovegtm]

Are you sure about Philly? What if they lose Butler? Harris?

Sure, I’m assuming they keep them. If not, they slide back to the Boston/Indy tier, and maybe lower if they can’t add depth.

 

[mcpickl]

Does Danny even offer Kyrie the contract after this disaster?

Yes. Yes, he does.

 

[the moops]

So bring in AD for a year and see what happens. If it costs you Tatum and draft picks, at least the Celtics might sell some jerseys. But a championship? Don't make me laugh.

The Celtics would likely be at worst the third best odds to win a championship next year if their team is Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Horford, AD as their starting 5

 

[Big John]

Yes. Yes, he does.

Yes, which is why Ainge will never win another championship, even if his heart holds out for decades. He's still trying to relive 2008 while reality is forcing him to relive 2013.