Byerie Irving? Do you want Kyrie back?
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I’m not sure Rondo is the guy I want to help a team with major chemistry issues lol.
There is no secondary scorer. There just isn't. If he shared the floor with another guy who could reliably get buckets, I suspect it would be different.
I am not going to convince anyone otherwise and people are entirely justified in being unhappy with him. However I don't think he is the issue - its the roster. Tatum has been awful this series which I chalk up to youth but its clear he isn't ready yet to be the next guy. Jaylen is good but really is more of an opportunistic scorer than a guy who can consistently generate his own offense. |
If Irving walks and the C's go with Rozier, they are likely to be a lower seed with high variance - either they will be an early out or they scramble and surprise a few teams. But this team's ability to go further most likely depends on them retaining Irving and retooling the roster.
If Kyrie wants to leave, what are the options?
If he just walks they can’t just sign a new max guy. Sign and trade isn’t really a thing anymore so prob not an option there?
Is it just overpay Rozier and hope you get lucky on a draft pick or Brown/Tatum make a leap?
That’s depressing.
If he just walks they can’t just sign a new max guy. Sign and trade isn’t really a thing anymore so prob not an option there?
Is it just overpay Rozier and hope you get lucky on a draft pick or Brown/Tatum make a leap?
That’s depressing.
It’s why Ainge will be trying to mend the Kyrie relationship up until the very end. None of this matters if this is the Hayward we get. Tatum and Jaylen aren’t ready to be a #2 scorer for a contender. That ain’t Horford either. Ainge needs AD and Kyrie combo. That’s the only path to a near-term title.
Can’t embed the tweet on mobile but apparently Kyrie’s reaction to missing all those shots tonight was “who cares I should’ve shot 30”. That’s going to go over well.
Absolutely not. Better to look for a sign & trade and just move on. Or to just throw him in to a package for Bradley Beal.
Kyrie's ceiling is a 1A player, but he's a probably a better fit as a #2. Hayward's ceiling going forward is probably at best a #3. Probably true of Horford as well. And while Brown and Tatum could be starters on a championship team, their likely career ceilings are probably also a #3 (neither really took the leap forward this season to convince me otherwise).
If Ainge can get a true #1 (think Davis) to pair with Kyrie, then that would obviously be a huge help. Otherwise, it could be a long winter for Celtics fans.
Bottom line is that there is no path to be a true contender without Kyrie barring some unforeseen miracle trade.
If Ainge can get a true #1 (think Davis) to pair with Kyrie, then that would obviously be a huge help. Otherwise, it could be a long winter for Celtics fans.
Bottom line is that there is no path to be a true contender without Kyrie barring some unforeseen miracle trade.
If we're not getting AD then there's no path with him either. I'm about done with the Kyrie era, I just don't like his game and don't think he's a winner. Experience with Lebron doesn't count.
There’s a price at which Rozier is worth signing, and his play has gotten him closer to that price than to what he wanted.
I don't dislike Bradley Beal but he isn't really a true lead dog either. Furthermore, he is more of a midrange player than Irving (Beal's three point shooting percentage has fallen to ~ league average as he has attempted more deep shots) so if the C's were to acquire him, they will have to add some outside shooting too.
Irving can win if he has the right cast around him imho. This just isn't it but frankly, I am not sure that anyone short of Durant, LeBron, Giannis or maybe Harden could do much more with this squad.
We forget but this team is essentially half-baked - lexageorge is right. Flaws and all, Irving plus Davis is their best hope. Otherwise we are rooting for the little engine that could unless Tatum makes a huge leap during the offseason and even then, they are going to need more to compete in the playoffs.
You can't take away the 2016 finals just because it doesn't fit your narrative.
Kyrie needs a second all star like every other contender. Milwaukee has 2 all stars, Philly has 3 all stars, and Toronto has a top 5 player and 2 borderline all stars.
A second all star? Kyrie needed a top 3 all time player and a Draymond Green suspension.
I really wanted it to work out. The guy is a locker room problem and I’m not going to cry when he leaves.
Not to pile on, and this Celtics team has more issues than just Kyrie, but Kyrie's earlier comments about how nobody on the team understands what its like to win in the playoffs look even worse right now with this crappy postseason he has put together. I think tonight, especially in the first half, the ball movement was pretty good guys were missing open shots, which happens. Kyrie though, seemed intent on finding the worst shot on the floor he could take and taking it.
I’ve had my fill of Kyrie after the last three games, but Gordon Hayward is getting a pass and he was much much worse than Kyrie. It’s sad that Gordon expectations are so low now that he doesn’t get a second thought after playing the way he did this series.
I actually have no idea how the last 3 games were close for 2.5-3 quarters each when Kyrie sucked, Hayward was worse, Smart was out and Tatum was bad.
I actually have no idea how the last 3 games were close for 2.5-3 quarters each when Kyrie sucked, Hayward was worse, Smart was out and Tatum was bad.
Sure I can. I just did.
If Kyrie would buy into being a team player I could see trying to build around him, but I think his ego is just too frail to handle that. He needs to be the uber dude, and he's not good enough to do that (few are).
KI's an almost hoops alpha but 1-off
I'm getting tired of the its all about Kyrie all the time bullshit.
I wonder how much he retards the growth of Tatum and Brown and sabotages Brad's authority.
and I wonder if a less ball-needy #1, who understands him taking 30 shots isn't the answer, who plays more consistent D is the answer going forward.
I'm getting tired of the its all about Kyrie all the time bullshit.
I wonder how much he retards the growth of Tatum and Brown and sabotages Brad's authority.
and I wonder if a less ball-needy #1, who understands him taking 30 shots isn't the answer, who plays more consistent D is the answer going forward.
His post-game quotes speak to someone who has given up on his teammates. He's hard to root for
I'm done making excuses for Kyrie too. He wanted to be the man and lead his own team, so he has to own it when his team underachieves in the regular season and totally falls on its face three straight games in the playoffs. Sure, Giannis has a first time all star with him in Middleton, but the rest of that squad isn't all that great.
Krrie is with a five time all star with 118 games of playoff experience, in AL, two top 3 picks with all kinds of talent, and the rest of the roster at least as good as the Bucks' 3rd-9th men on their roster, and he can't get it done.
Kyrie claimed that all would be right in the playoffs because the Celtics have Kyrie Irving. That certainly is not the case so far.
Krrie is with a five time all star with 118 games of playoff experience, in AL, two top 3 picks with all kinds of talent, and the rest of the roster at least as good as the Bucks' 3rd-9th men on their roster, and he can't get it done.
Kyrie claimed that all would be right in the playoffs because the Celtics have Kyrie Irving. That certainly is not the case so far.
And even worse, we have no way of getting out of his iron clad preseason commitment to re-sign with the team. We’re stuck!
I don’t think this is necessarily true. Beal’s 3FG% was fine in 2017 and 2018 when he was shooting them at similar volume. It did go down this year, but I suspect that was as much about the Wizards losing Wall and going into rebuild mode.
So I don’t see Beal as an endgame so much as a step to staying competitive in the East and accumulating assets for the next big trade.
I said a few months ago that I thought that Irving and Durant had decided to team up, and that I expected Irving to walk at year’s end. I still do. I’m just hoping that Boston doesn’t make the mistake (again) of trying to draft for another team in the expectation of making a big trade.
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That certainly hurts but Kyrie playing like normal Kyrie solves a lot of problems. He has simply come up incredibly small and all our other problems feed off of that.
Clearly, Hayward is still not all the way back physically, and maybe he never gets there, but so many of his issues seem to be mental. The self-doubt with him is almost palpable, especially if he misses his first couple of shots.
I mostly agree with the sentiment of the last page or so, but I'd like to remind everyone that Tatum just barely turned 21 and Brown is 22 and a half. I was hoping they would take another step or leap forward this year, but that doesn't mean it won't happen (and if there were locker room issues then maybe that's a reason). If either turns into an All-Star the team looks pretty different and I'm still bullish on Tatum at least doing so.
I think that Kyrie is gone and if that means the Celtics are still "building" for another couple years (until they're out of Hayward's contract) that's honestly fine with me. They will still be a playoff team and will be entertaining to follow, and you never know which player might become unhappy somewhere else.
Edit: One other thing to remind everyone of is that a knock on him when we acquired him was his health, and that's still an issue and he's only getting older.
I think that Kyrie is gone and if that means the Celtics are still "building" for another couple years (until they're out of Hayward's contract) that's honestly fine with me. They will still be a playoff team and will be entertaining to follow, and you never know which player might become unhappy somewhere else.
Edit: One other thing to remind everyone of is that a knock on him when we acquired him was his health, and that's still an issue and he's only getting older.
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One of the biggest issues with Kyrie is that he is either poor at drawing fouls or won't because of his body type. Every All-NBA player should be able to get to the line when their shot isn't falling.
Others have raised the point that maybe Kyrie is just an exceptional Robin and not an ideal Batman. If that's so, and if Tatum is having a harder time growing in an environment with Kyrie being Kyrie, then maybe the AD trade really is the cure-all. Tatum flourishes elsewhere (good for him), and the Celtics get AD to be Batman while Kyrie gets to go back to being all-world, elite-level Robin. Moreover, AD is probably the ideal defender on a guy like Giannis. AD is basically the same size as Giannis (AD: 6'10", 253, Giannis: 6'11", 242), and unlike most bigs, has terrific quickness himself. Plus he's an elite shot-blocker. Might be the perfect antidote for Giannis, who is obviously going to be a major problem for Boston for years to come.
I changed my vote to not wanting him back. He is either not good enough or not healthy enough to do what is expected of a super star. I expected he would score a lot and the cs would lose because: A. There "2nd" star is a shadow of himself B. they are too young. C. Kyrie is a scorer and not a playmaker.
Well we have seen he isn't even the guy that is a great scorer that doesn't involve his team mates.
Well we have seen he isn't even the guy that is a great scorer that doesn't involve his team mates.
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I absolutely want him back. We can not afford to let an asset like him leave for nothing. If He doesn’t fit right, in 19/20, then he will still be tradeable.
That said, I miss healthy IT. That kid had no problem playing within the offense and getting to the line. Just couldn’t withstand the beating he was taking night in and Night out.
That said, I miss healthy IT. That kid had no problem playing within the offense and getting to the line. Just couldn’t withstand the beating he was taking night in and Night out.
This. Plus AD would force Giannis to expend more energy on defense, and if teamed with Kyrie creates a number of matchup problems. The Bucks did beat the Pels twice this season, but Davis matched Giannis in the numbers battle both games.
I am one of those that put Kyrie in the 1A or 2 territory. He's not Steph, and I'm not at all convinced this year's Celtics team has anyone nearly as good as Klay Thompson.
The only problem is that I do think the Bucks exposed the rest of the Celtics roster a bit, and I'm not convinced that AD + Kyrie is enough unless there is some improvement elsewhere in the roster as well. Not sure where that improvement would come from in this hypothetical, but that's probably a separate thread.
AD + Kyrie + a hopefully improved Hayward (he can't really have just lost it completely, right?) + Brown is a very nice foundation. But yes, another thread. I do think that AD is exactly, precisely, and perfectly what the Celtics need. This series - and how good Giannis has become - just made this a glaring, obvious fact.
All I know is that I want zero to do with Rozier being anointed the PG next year if Kyrie walks. He might not have Kyrie's attitude issues, but he takes shots like he's as skilled as Kyrie (hint: he's nowhere close) and his defense has been on par with Kyrie's effort this year.
They likely aren't trading for Davis if Irving leaves. As others have noted upthread, the Irving trade was Ainge essentially locking himself into building around Kyrie.
If he leaves, they are probably going with the kids in which means the Celtics will be a lot like the Nets. They will make the playoffs but have little hope beyond that.
As for Ainge "locking himself in", it's probably best to recall that Ainge had an asset in the final Nets pick that was at the peak of its value, and there were no other suitable options at the time for that pick. The salary cap was already blown through with the Horford and Hayward signings, and so there was little opportunity cost to picking up Kyrie other than the cash in Wyc's pocket.
There was no way Ainge could predict at the time of the trade that Hayward would break his ankle, or that this season's team would have chemistry issues.
Kyrie looks like he's made the choice for us. From the 3rd quarter on, he basically packed it in. He looked completely checked out, and nothing postgame really changed that impression. What gives the Celtics the best chance to win a championship is immaterial at this point: it looks like he wants out.
I think you're right. And as frustrating as it is to see what looked like an awesome squad fall apart, we've had worse situations than building around Tatum, Brown, Smart, (hopefully) a recovering Hayward, and a lot of picks.
Yeah, there's no guarantee (at all!) that Tatum or Brown will make The Leap, but young players never look like they'll make The Leap until they do, and both of them are very young. This is a whole separate discussion, but I think that having Kyrie on the roster hurt both their developments significantly, and I'll be interested to see what they do next year. But again, to reiterate, not making the leap is more likely than making it.
Please forgive the Salary Cap 101 question... why is that if Kyrie were to leave the Celtics, they couldn't seek out a high-priced replacement? Is it because they're already over the cap and pretty much can only spend money to retain the players currently on the roster?
I had the same question, because if there were a way to replace Kyrie with Kemba without blowing up the roster, I'd be all for it.
Jaylen's last 6 playoff games this year:
31.9 min, 11.2 fga, 55.2% fg, 46.7% 3ptfg, 5.8 reb, 1.5 ast, 0.5 stl, 17.5 pts
The only negative has been getting into foul trouble. But he's probably been the best overall Celtic this series.
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