Building the next winning team/We can't stay on topic thread

TomRicardo

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Morning Woodhead said:
This is where I am.  If it HAS to happen, pull the band aid off, and get it done now.  Especially with the talent in the 2014 draft class. 
 
Yes, and we can play this game until 2020 when finally we stop playing the draft pick game and trade for some veterans.
 
No one drafts builds and wins in the NBA.  The closest team to win with draft rebuilt team in the last 20 years were the Thunder.  Of course they did it with 4 top five picks in three years.  Unless you see the Celtics walking away somehow with 4 top five draft picks in three years plus a great grab later in one of those drafts, they aren't building a winner. 
 
You need to build through trades and luring a top free agent.
 

TomRicardo

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BigSoxFan said:
The San Antonio Spurs would disagree. They obviously hit the jackpot with Duncan but they also found gems in the draft in Manu and Parker.
 
Yet they already had Robinson to bridge them over.
 
The Spurs didn't build a team by tanking.  They developed players on a team with existing talent.  This is what the Pistons did as well.
 
Edit - Ginobili may not have came over if they sucked.  Parker may not have come over either.
 

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If Bledsoe isn't in, I hate this.  Butler, Jordan and a 1 in the 20s is basically worthless, and does borderline nothing to rebuild.  I'd rather be a 7 seed for the next two years with what we have.
 
Seriously, we're going to give them KG and Doc and enable them to get Pierce and resign Paul and in return we get cap relief a project and their fifth best player.  What they couldn't through in Raef LaFrentz?
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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TomRicardo said:
Yes, and we can play this game until 2020 when finally we stop playing the draft pick game and trade for some veterans.
 
No one drafts builds and wins in the NBA.  The closest team to win with draft rebuilt team in the last 20 years were the Thunder.  Of course they did it with 4 top five picks in three years.  Unless you see the Celtics walking away somehow with 4 top five draft picks in three years plus a great grab later in one of those drafts, they aren't building a winner. 
 
You need to build through trades and luring a top free agent.
 
Totally wrong.  First of all, this isn't a binary question, most teams are built through a combination of different player acquisition strategies.  Second of all, almost all elite NBA teams (just looking at NBA champions is stupid for all sorts of reasons) since 2000 have had at least one cornerstone player acquired through drafting in the Top 10. Examples:
 
OK City (Durant, Westbrook, Harden)
Miami (Wade)
Boston (Pierce)
Spurs (Duncan)
Cleveland (Lebron)
Chicago (Rose)
Orlando (Howard)
Dalls (Dirk)
 
 
If anything, the lesson of recent NBA history is that if you aren't a marquee free agent destination like LA, then you need to draft in the Top 10 for a couple years to have any shot of becoming an elite team.  The only non-LA elite team that I can think of that hasn't taken this route is the early-to-mid 2000s Pistons.
 

TomRicardo

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BigSoxFan said:
Yes, but he retired in 2003. Manu and Parker, two guys they drafted way outside of the lottery, were directly related to them winning 2 titles in 2005, 2007, and potentially in 2013. I guess my point is that all it takes is one foundational guy (Duncan, Rose, etc.) to change the fortunes of a franchise. Indiana looks like a promising franchise and they basically built through the draft as well.
 
That requires a lot of luck so the stockpiling assets for trade strategy is certainly the best way to go about it. Of course, you have to be lucky there too in that there needs to be a readily-available star to acquire to make it work.
 
Yes and Parker and Ginobili never had to come over and choose to come over to play for a great team. 
 
When they won the first championship they had Elliot, Robinson, and Avery Johnson along with generation talent Tim Duncan.  They picked up Bruce Bowen after the first championship.  He was incredible.  He allowed Parker and Ginobili to develop.
 

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Totally wrong.  First of all, this isn't a binary question, most teams are built through a combination of different player acquisition strategies.  Second of all, almost all elite NBA teams (just looking at NBA champions is stupid for all sorts of reasons) since 2000 have had at least one cornerstone player acquired through drafting in the Top 10. Examples:
 
OK City (Durant, Westbrook, Harden)
Miami (Wade)
Boston (Pierce)
Spurs (Duncan)
Cleveland (Lebron)
Chicago (Rose)
Orlando (Howard)
Dalls (Dirk)
 
 
If anything, the lesson of recent NBA history is that if you aren't a marquee free agent destination like LA, then you need to draft in the Top 10 for a couple years to have any shot of becoming an elite team.  The only non-LA elite team that I can think of that hasn't taken this route is the early-to-mid 2000s Pistons.
 
 
DIscount every single one of the number one picks-- in the lottery system, it's 100% blind luck to a) get #1 and b) have it in a year when there happens to be a super elite talent, so LeBron, Rose, Howard, Duncan and Durant are out.
 
They key, to my mind is picking well with mediocre picks--getting a Pierce or a Dirk or a Westbrook.  Banking on getting the one is a lottery ticket at best.  Ask the Wizards.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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jose melendez said:
The Spurs tanked exactly one year--The Duncan year.
 
Yeah, they got lucky.  So what?
 
If you want to have an elite team and you're not based in Los Angeles then you need to spend some time in the lower reaches of the lottery.  Hopefully you get lucky and you don't stay there long.  But thinking that you're going to build an elite team while staying out of the deep lottery is just foolishness. 
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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jose melendez said:
DIscount every single one of the number one picks-- in the lottery system, it's 100% blind luck to a) get #1 and b) have it in a year when there happens to be a super elite talent, so LeBron, Rose, Howard, Duncan and Durant are out.
 
They key, to my mind is picking well with mediocre picks--getting a Pierce or a Dirk or a Westbrook.  Banking on getting the one is a lottery ticket at best.  Ask the Wizards.
 
I don't disagree with what you're saying.  But what I'm saying is that there is no other realistic path except taking a tour through the deep lottery.
 
And I'd add that if you want to minimize the time you spend as an awful team, there's no better time to jump into the deep lottery than when the upcoming draft class profiles as having more elite talent at the top than any draft since 2003.
 

jose melendez

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Yeah, they got lucky.  So what?
 
If you want to have an elite team and you're not based in Los Angeles then you need to spend some time in the lower reaches of the lottery.  Hopefully you get lucky and you don't stay there long.  But thinking that you're going to build an elite team while staying out of the deep lottery is just foolishness. 
How did it contribute to the Cs last ring?  They had a five pick to deal one year and Pierce was a 10.
 

TomRicardo

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Totally wrong.  First of all, this isn't a binary question, most teams are built through a combination of different player acquisition strategies.  Second of all, almost all elite NBA teams (just looking at NBA champions is stupid for all sorts of reasons) since 2000 have had at least one cornerstone player acquired through drafting in the Top 10. Examples:
 
OK City (Durant, Westbrook, Harden)
Miami (Wade)
Boston (Pierce)
Spurs (Duncan)
Cleveland (Lebron)
Chicago (Rose)
Orlando (Howard)
Dalls (Dirk)
 
 
If anything, the lesson of recent NBA history is that if you aren't a marquee free agent destination like LA, then you need to draft in the Top 10 for a couple years to have any shot of becoming an elite team.  The only non-LA elite team that I can think of that hasn't taken this route is the early-to-mid 2000s Pistons.
 
 
Awesome list
 
1) OKC - Never won a championship despite being tankopalooza's best case
2) Miami - Got Shaq won the championship, then was futile, convinced LeBron to come to Miami, won championship.  Wade plays with the best talents of his generation.  Still no Scottie Pippin.
3) Boston - stopped playing the draft game, traded away picks and talent for proven all stars.  Won Championship
4) Spurs - never tanked.  HoF center got injured won lottery and got Generational Talent.  Collected talent while collecting wins creating an atmosphere of winning.  See Patriots.
5) Cleveland - Never won despite being second best case for tankopalozza.  There won't be another LeBron for ten years.
6) Chicago - has a free agent all star playing for them and still hasn't even made the Finals. 
7) Orlando - Signed Rashard Lewis and traded for Turkoglu (while he didn't suck) and surrounded Dwight Howard with talent.
8) Dallas - When has Mark Cuban not spent? 
 
You need to be lucky.  A lot of teams suck for a while.  Look at the Knicks.  Until this year THEY SUCKED. 
 
Point is tanking one year is not going to fix a problem.  You need to tank three to five years then be lucky.  After that it will take you two to three to collect talent around the core and see if you made it.  So you are are saying the tanking method takes to 5 to 8 years to work. 
 
At least the Bruins are good.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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TomRicardo said:
Awesome list
 
1) OKC - Never won a championship despite being tankopalooza's best case
2) Miami - Got Shaq won the championship, then was futile, convinced LeBron to come to Miami, won championship.  Wade plays with the best talents of his generation.  Still no Scottie Pippin.
3) Boston - stopped playing the draft game, traded away picks and talent for proven all stars.  Won Championship
4) Spurs - never tanked.  HoF center got injured won lottery and got Generational Talent.  Collected talent while collecting wins creating an atmosphere of winning.  See Patriots.
5) Cleveland - Never won despite being second best case for tankopalozza.  There won't be another LeBron for ten years.
6) Chicago - has a free agent all star playing for them and still hasn't even made the Finals. 
7) Orlando - Signed Rashard Lewis and traded for Turkoglu (while he didn't suck) and surrounded Dwight Howard with talent.
8) Dallas - When has Mark Cuban not spent? 
 
You need to be lucky.  A lot of teams suck for a while.  Look at the Knicks.  Until this year THEY SUCKED. 
 
Point is tanking one year is not going to fix a problem.  You need to tank three to five years then be lucky.  After that it will take you two to three to collect talent around the core and see if you made it.  So you are are saying the tanking method takes to 5 to 8 years to work. 
 
At least the Bruins are good.
 
It is an awesome list, in that its a lot longer than the list of elite teams outside the marquee FA destinations that have gotten there without drafting in the Top 10.
 
Having a bad team sucks and you hope that the process doesn't take too long but there are no viable alternative paths to having an elite team in today's NBA if you're not a marquee FA destination so its really just about accepting reality.
 

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jose melendez said:
The Spurs tanked exactly one year--The Duncan year.
 
And Robinson was hurt that year, making it a somewhat understandable and excusable "tank". 
 

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TomRicardo said:
Awesome list
 
1) OKC - Never won a championship despite being tankopalooza's best case
2) Miami - Got Shaq won the championship, then was futile, convinced LeBron to come to Miami, won championship.  Wade plays with the best talents of his generation.  Still no Scottie Pippin.
3) Boston - stopped playing the draft game, traded away picks and talent for proven all stars.  Won Championship
4) Spurs - never tanked.  HoF center got injured won lottery and got Generational Talent.  Collected talent while collecting wins creating an atmosphere of winning.  See Patriots.
5) Cleveland - Never won despite being second best case for tankopalozza.  There won't be another LeBron for ten years.
6) Chicago - has a free agent all star playing for them and still hasn't even made the Finals. 
7) Orlando - Signed Rashard Lewis and traded for Turkoglu (while he didn't suck) and surrounded Dwight Howard with talent.
8) Dallas - When has Mark Cuban not spent? 
 
You need to be lucky.  A lot of teams suck for a while.  Look at the Knicks.  Until this year THEY SUCKED. 
 
Point is tanking one year is not going to fix a problem.  You need to tank three to five years then be lucky.  After that it will take you two to three to collect talent around the core and see if you made it.  So you are are saying the tanking method takes to 5 to 8 years to work. 
 
At least the Bruins are good.
 
Meh.  Memphis, Denver, and Indiana are all on the doorstep of being a championship contender, none of them got any big time free agents, and the biggest lottery score between the three of them is Mike Conley.
 

Nick Kaufman

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Can we stop with the idea that a top free agent will never sign in Boston and will always prefer LA? I mean you can make a valid argument that other cities have a leg up because they offer more endorsement opportunities and better weather. However, last time I checked Boston was a top 5 market and what free agents also value is being with a competent organization. I bet LAL will become a far less attractive destination if the current owner keeps screwing things up.
 
So that leaves the weather. So essentially the argument is that Boston has marginally less dollars in endorsement deals, far worse weather, things like front office competency or money offered don't matter and EVERY SINGLE free agent thinks the same way.

Plus, you know, this whole conversation drawing conclusions based on skewed takes of what happened in the past 20-30 years ignores the fact we re dealing with Small Sample Size.
 

ALiveH

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Two questions
 
Who are the best Celtics free agent signings of all-time?
 
Is 30 years of history a statistically SSS?
 
Nick Kaufman said:
Can we stop with the idea that a top free agent will never sign in Boston and will always prefer LA? I mean you can make a valid argument that other cities have a leg up because they offer more endorsement opportunities and better weather. However, last time I checked Boston was a top 5 market and what free agents also value is being with a competent organization. I bet LAL will become a far less attractive destination if the current owner keeps screwing things up.
 
So that leaves the weather. So essentially the argument is that Boston has marginally less dollars in endorsement deals, far worse weather, things like front office competency or money offered don't matter and EVERY SINGLE free agent thinks the same way.

Plus, you know, this whole conversation drawing conclusions based on skewed takes of what happened in the past 20-30 years ignores the fact we re dealing with Small Sample Size.
 

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soxfan121 said:
And Robinson was hurt that year, making it a somewhat understandable and excusable "tank". 
 
Robinson originally was supposed to be out 6 weeks in December of that year.  Yes, he was hurt but was also held out for the remainder of the season once it was apparent that all the Spurs injuries that year was going to put them in the lottery with or without Robinson. 
 

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AimingForYoko said:
I wouldn't find it fun because I want this thing blown up. Year after year of the 7th or 8th seed is exactly the opposite of what I want.

Basically, I want a team full of Jordan Crawfords. A Crawford at every position, if you will. If Jordan Crawford could coach I would make that happen too.
 
Way back this forum was all about this question for Celts:  in the O'Brien era, should they blow it up or try to build on what was in place?  Funny to see it come full circle!
 
I am of the view they should sell off everything they can and get really bad to try and get a lot better.  It's by no means a sure-thing play, but for me the death zone in the NBA is being a team in the 'teens' overall and if you are there, you better be there because you are young and have assets to deal, not because you're throughorly medicore
 
I'd be quite happy for Celts to get to a place where they could take the "Thomas Robinson for cap space" deal Houston is supposedly shipping around---young and has potential is what they should be accumulating, even if it may not come to be.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
When has Boston ever been a Top-5 market for NBA players?  For years the city was avoided due to fears/rumors of racial profiling (the Dee Brown arrest didn't help ease this problem) and most recently we have had to overpay for MLE free agents.  When we could offer full MLE's to guys like Terry and Lee they were more than happy to sign and get paid but when other teams offered similar deals guys like Antonio McDyess choose to sign elsewhere....in the case of McDyess to be a backup in Detroit. I mean shit, we had to outbid two other teams for Mark Frickin Blount by giving him the extra year plus a trade kicker that he gladly cashed in.
 
You can deny it all you want but that doesn't change the facts that FA don't look to sign with Boston......they sign with Boston when all else fails and they want to get paid. (see: Wilkins, Dominique)
 
 
Top five media market. Ergo, there should be good endorsement opportunities in Boston too. Other than that, I don't see a particular argument other than the fact that players avoided it at some point in the past because of race issues. Is it still true in 2013?
 
As for the question about 30 years being small sample size. Yes, the relevant sample is how many times Boston had the cap space and wanted a top free agent. That's significantly less times than 30. And even 30 is sss.
 

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
NBA players will go to whoever has the cap space to pay them. All things being equal, sure a lot of guys would choose LA over Boston, but in the NBA all things are not always equal, and not all teams are players in free agency each summer. So while it's somewhat instructive to look at a list of free agents that the Celtics have signed, I think it's more instructive to look at a list of free agents that the Celtics offered contracts to who chose to go elsewhere.
 
Or this.
 

chrisfont9

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Nick Kaufman said:
Top five media market. Ergo, there should be good endorsement opportunities in Boston too. Other than that, I don't see a particular argument other than the fact that players avoided it at some point in the past because of race issues. Is it still true in 2013?
 
As for the question about 30 years being small sample size. Yes, the relevant sample is how many times Boston had the cap space and wanted a top free agent. That's significantly less times than 30. And even 30 is sss.
Doesn't KG kind of answer the question about Boston's ability to attract a top guy? Yes, it had to be done via trade, but he had every ability to say no and some ability to dictate a landing place. He said yes the same way Lebron did, after being wooed by the organization and the stars he'd be teaming up with. And then he re-signed with the team.
 

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chrisfont9 said:
Doesn't KG kind of answer the question about Boston's ability to attract a top guy? Yes, it had to be done via trade, but he had every ability to say no and some ability to dictate a landing place. He said yes the same way Lebron did, after being wooed by the organization and the stars he'd be teaming up with. And then he re-signed with the team.
 
KG is a hermit during the season. When he was hesitant about Boston a friend told him it didn't matter where he played because he never goes out.
 

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The Social Chair said:
KG is a hermit during the season. When he was hesitant about Boston a friend told him it didn't matter where he played because he never goes out.
 
But that's the point. You can't say NO free agent is going to come to Boston. Perhaps you can say many, or most. But some will, because each person is different in a different situation with a different set of alternatives and so on.
 

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Brickowski said:
David West went to Indianapolis because he thought he had a better chance to win there.  And he was right.  Do you think the great nightlife and weather in central Indiana was a factor in his decision?  LOL.  And if you want to talk about "racial history" have you ever been to southern Indiana?
 
Martinsville, IN - roughly 30 minutes outside of Indy - prides itself on being the home of the KKK.  And while the warm months are much nicer than Boston, the cold months are equally as shitty.
 
David West's decision doesn't "prove" anything about Boston in my opinion.
 

HomeRunBaker

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chrisfont9 said:
Doesn't KG kind of answer the question about Boston's ability to attract a top guy? Yes, it had to be done via trade, but he had every ability to say no and some ability to dictate a landing place. He said yes the same way Lebron did, after being wooed by the organization and the stars he'd be teaming up with. And then he re-signed with the team.
 
KG did initially say no. It wasn't until Ainge made the trade for Allen that he agreed to come to Boston to play for a championship with Pierce and Ray.  KG's a weird dude, he spent years playing the 4 next to Olowakandi or Blount next to frozen lakes in the winter yet never complained until his feud with Glenn Taylor erupted.  He's certainly the exception that every rule has.
 

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TomRicardo said:
Yet they already had Robinson to bridge them over.
 
The Spurs didn't build a team by tanking.  They developed players on a team with existing talent.  This is what the Pistons did as well.
 
Edit - Ginobili may not have came over if they sucked.  Parker may not have come over either.
 

Huh?  They drafted both of them.  They weren't international free agents after the draft or anything.
 

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Huh?  They drafted both of them.  They weren't international free agents after the draft or anything.
That you're drafted doesn't mean much if you're already being paid to play professionally in another league. Until the draftee signs a contract, it means nothing, other than no other team in that league can negotiate with said player.
 

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quint said:
That you're drafted doesn't mean much if you're already being paid to play professionally in another league. Until the draftee signs a contract, it means nothing, other than no other team in that league can negotiate with said player.
 
It was very well known that Parker was coming over immediately as playing in the NBA was always his and his fathers dream from when he played in the NBA.  Ginobali didn't come over right away having waited 3 years but he didn't arrive to be a starter so i'd assume he was going to come to the NBA when he felt he was ready. 
 

ALiveH

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Umm, how did the Spurs get David Robinson with the #1 overall pick?
 
TomRicardo said:
Yet they already had Robinson to bridge them over.
 
The Spurs didn't build a team by tanking. 
 
jose melendez said:
The Spurs tanked exactly one year--The Duncan year.
 

HomeRunBaker

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ALiveH said:
Umm, how did the Spurs get David Robinson with the #1 overall pick?
There is a difference between tanking on purpose and having a terrible team.  The Spurs had 28, 31, and 21-win seasons in the years leading up to Robinson and Elliott being drafted coupled with trades for Terry Cummings and Rod Strickland.  They reloaded the entire team in a matter of months.
 

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TomRicardo said:
Yes, and we can play this game until 2020 when finally we stop playing the draft pick game and trade for some veterans.
 
No one drafts builds and wins in the NBA.  The closest team to win with draft rebuilt team in the last 20 years were the Thunder.  Of course they did it with 4 top five picks in three years.  Unless you see the Celtics walking away somehow with 4 top five draft picks in three years plus a great grab later in one of those drafts, they aren't building a winner. 
 
You need to build through trades and luring a top free agent.
 
The Celts have not lured a top FA, a true franchise difference maker, in years.  I dont think we can rely on that.  I remember early on when Danny took over he said something to the effect of him talking to agents and them basically telling him their clients didnt want to sign here, it seems as though he factored that into his strategy.
 
I think we have to build through the 3 D's which is what Danny said Red taught him.  Draft, development and deals.  To make trades you need assets, to get assets you need to draft and develop guys.  Its pretty rare that a non-elite FA, that we could actually attract, suddenly becomes a valuable trade asset.  You have to build with realistic expectations of what your franchise can do. 
 
Beyond the Heat last year, and 08 Celts, most of the teams that won titles really did get significant pieces through the draft.  Dallas got Dirk, Lakers got Kobe, Spurs got Duncan and pieces, Wade/Shaq Heat got Wade in the draft, thats 6 of the last 8 title teams.  Now maybe you dont build your entire team through the draft, but generally a significant piece or two is going to have to come from the draft.  Even the 08 Celts got Perk and Rondo in the draft, yes they were later picks but it highlights the need to have multiple draft chances to get your piece(s).
 
 
I dont understand your strategy though.  If we arent getting significant pieces through the draft, what assets are we trading?  Putting KG and PP aside, the only genuine asset we have is Rondo, we need many more assets than that.  And if you think your odds are bad in the draft, they are really freaking bad in terms of success with signing other teams free agents.  Just give me a vague outline of how you take this team with your strategy to build the next title team.  I just cant see avoiding at least a 2-3 year stay in the lottery.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
There is a difference between tanking on purpose and having a terrible team. 
 
different how?  Just in intent or does that somehow influence the outcome? 
 
If we wait a couple years for KG & PP to retire without getting anything back we might truly be terrible and not on purpose.  Is that somehow a better way to build a champion?
 
It seems like some people are saying "you can't win by tanking", then when some empirical example are provided, the counter-argument is that those examples don't count for XYZ reason.  Also, if we're going to parse all the different types of tanking then we'll really have a SSS problem!
 

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ALiveH said:
different how?  Just in intent or does that somehow influence the outcome? 
 
If we wait a couple years for KG & PP to retire without getting anything back we might truly be terrible and not on purpose.  Is that somehow a better way to build a champion?
 
It seems like some people are saying "you can't win by tanking", then when some empirical example are provided, the counter-argument is that those examples don't count for XYZ reason.  Also, if we're going to parse all the different types of tanking then we'll really have a SSS problem!
 
I interpret tanking with not attempting to win basketball games by sitting out stars who otherwise could probably play in the game.  Using this definition the Spurs tanked the year Duncan came out by not bringing back Robinson to play in the second half of the season when he should have been cleared no later than Feb 1st......however they didn't tank the year of Robinson by sitting stars they simply stunk during those years.
 

ALiveH

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So, just thinking it through logically, tanking is a better way to build a champion than being truly terrible.  If a team is truly terrible then getting one elite player (David Robinson) won't be enough to put a team over the top (but it will at least make them somewhat relevant).  But, if a team tanks (i.e., intentionally underperforms their talent), then they can get an elite player (Duncan) to make them a championship contender once they start trying hard again.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
Robinson originally was supposed to be out 6 weeks in December of that year.  Yes, he was hurt but was also held out for the remainder of the season once it was apparent that all the Spurs injuries that year was going to put them in the lottery with or without Robinson. 
Remember the Spurs tanked twice: once to get Robinson, and again to get Duncan. Also during the year they were 20-62 they fired Bob Hill and replaced him with Popovich.
They won a title in 1998-99, but they was a strike-shortened year.  Except for that title, they were a bridesmaid until they got lucky for a third time when 28 other teams passed on Tony Parker.  With Parker they won three more titles, and maybe another one this year.
 

TroyOLeary

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Jul 22, 2005
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The Spurs were 80-166 in the three years before drafting Robinson.  They were .500 or below for six straight years before he got there.  Saying they tanked for Robinson would be like saying the Bobcats tanked for Wiggins should they win the lottery next year.
 

jose melendez

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Robinson was drafted in 1987--everything about how the league functioned was different then.  It's not a terribly useful data point.
 
Edit: By the way... great draft in 1987, Robinson, Pippen, Reggie Miller, Reggie Lewis, Kevin Johnson, Mark Jackson and Horace Grant.
 
Armon Gilliam, Kenny Smith and Olden Polynice all has respectable careers too.
 

HomeRunBaker

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TroyOLeary said:
The Spurs were 80-166 in the three years before drafting Robinson.  They were .500 or below for six straight years before he got there.  Saying they tanked for Robinson would be like saying the Bobcats tanked for Wiggins should they win the lottery next year.
 
Correct. Under my interpretation of "tanking" the Spurs were simply a group of individuals who collectively formed a terrible basketball team. As i mentioned in another post......the turnaround was Robinson coming on board the same year Elliott was drafted and the trades for Cummings and Strickland were made. 
 

dhellers

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TomRicardo said:
Awesome list ...
 
.
You need to be lucky.  A lot of teams suck for a while.  Look at the Knicks.  Until this year THEY SUCKED. 
 
Point is tanking one year is not going to fix a problem.  You need to tank three to five years then be lucky.  After that it will take you two to three to collect talent around the core and see if you made it.  So you are are saying the tanking method takes to 5 to 8 years to work. 
 
At least the Bruins are good.
The problem I always have with the "we need to  start afresh now" viewpoint is the tight focus on how a rebuild can work, with short shrift to the chance that a 5-8 year process delivers nothing memorable.
 
It seems that Ainge is not willing to keep the band together for one more try  -- I interpret Doc's wandering eye as evidence that PP won't have his option picked up. Still, it ain't happened yet so let me state a rationale for keeping the current core together: that the odds of such a team being truely interesting are in the same ballpark as the best year in a 5-8 year rebuild.
 
Right now the current core is NOT  bound to  be a mediocre team -- there are several pieces that could be better. A healthy Rondo could start to make the Tony Parker evolution (developing a competent jump shot).  A fully recovered Green, with starter responsibiltiy, becomes more consistent. A fully recovered Bradley plays like spring 2012. A repaired Sullinger plays like a top 5 pick. Judicioius use of PP and KG mean they play as well (per minute) AND are in good shape in the playoffs. Lee/Bass/Terry play at their average.
 
If much of this happens, that's an interesting team. 
 
Of course, each one is a gamble (not all with the same odds), so the odds of all of them happening are small. But is this set of gambles worse than the set of gambles associated with a full blown rebuild? Gambles on either tanking well (not so easy, with the Phoenix/Charlotte/etc teams in  the way), and/or getting the lottery balls to bounce your way, and/or choosing well in the draft.  And doing this several times.  Or doing a mediocre job of this, and getting lucky and being the team that gets to trade pieces for an impact player.
 
There may be a slew of ways of structruing a rebuild, each with its own set of risks. But even with a competent Ainge (and he isn't  Auerbach in a league of checker players), what are the odds that the best team (after 5 - 8 years of this) is better than a 2014 team built from the current core? My gut feeling is probably less (I will aggree that the upside may be higher, but not by much)
 
So WTF is the rush? About the only rationale for rushing forward is that even a slight improvement in CHAMPIONSHIP is worth embracing.  And although I am sure to hear aphorisms about the need to take risks to achieve greatness, to me it isn't an all or nothing world -- a good team with players I know (that has some hope of winning it all) is more fun to watch than a lousy one with a slightly greater hope several years down the line.
 
IOW:  Why not entertain old fashioned (i.e.; reputed to be obsolete) loyalty and err on the side of keeping it together?
 

wutang112878

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dhellers said:
Right now the current core is NOT  bound to  be a mediocre team -- there are several pieces that could be better. A healthy Rondo could start to make the Tony Parker evolution (developing a competent jump shot).  A fully recovered Green, with starter responsibiltiy, becomes more consistent. A fully recovered Bradley plays like spring 2012. A repaired Sullinger plays like a top 5 pick. Judicioius use of PP and KG mean they play as well (per minute) AND are in good shape in the playoffs. Lee/Bass/Terry play at their average.
 
If much of this happens, that's an interesting team. 
 
Of course, each one is a gamble (not all with the same odds), so the odds of all of them happening are small. But is this set of gambles worse than the set of gambles associated with a full blown rebuild?
 
 
The bolded is the problem.  To be better than mediocre there are a lot of ifs:  If Rondo is healthy, if Green continues to improve, if KG doesnt drop off rapidly, if PP doesnt drop off rapidly, if Sully comes back healthy from pretty major surgery.  Thats a lot of ifs for a team that was basically 500 with a healthy Rondo, those games happened and we cant just ignore them. 
 
 
So when we judge keeping it together vs move onto to the next team, we need to remember the chances against this team are huge.
 
 
dhellers said:
what are the odds that the best team (after 5 - 8 years of this) is better than a 2014 team built from the current core? My gut feeling is probably less (I will aggree that the upside may be higher, but not by much)
 
You really cant be serious with this.  The 2014 team with all the IFs going well, look like a team that might be capable of a run, might.  In 5 years we are probably more likely to have a team that can make 3 serious runs because Danny isnt perfect, but he is in the top 10 of GMs in terms of constructing a new championship caliber roster.  Why are you so scared of a rebuild?  Everytime it comes up you just look at the downside risk from every angle but your plan is really just delaying that process.  I just dont get it.
 
 
dhellers said:
 a good team with players I know (that has some hope of winning it all) is more fun to watch than a lousy one with a slightly greater hope several years down the line.
 
The issue is that watching that lousy team is inevitable.  We can do that next year, or we can do that 2 years from now, its happening.  Lets flip the question, why shouldnt we rush to rebuild?  Is the upside of possibly having one more remote shot really worth it?
 

wutang112878

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dhellers said:
There may be a slew of ways of structruing a rebuild, each with its own set of risks. But even with a competent Ainge (and he isn't  Auerbach in a league of checker players), what are the odds that the best team (after 5 - 8 years of this) is better than a 2014 team built from the current core? My gut feeling is probably less (I will aggree that the upside may be higher, but not by much)
 
So WTF is the rush? About the only rationale for rushing forward is that even a slight improvement in CHAMPIONSHIP is worth embracing. 
 
I am not asking this to be snarly, this is a serious question.  Even if this team was mediocre and you truly thought they were going to continue to decline, do you honestly think even then you would be willing to throw in the towel and move onto the next team?  Just based on how you look at this with risk reward [which is a judgement thing, because we dont have concrete numbers], I really think you would prefer to allow this team to deteriorate to a 30 win team and accept we were in rebuilding mode instead of forcefully moving into a rebuilding mode.  And that might be why we have some serious philosophical differences. 
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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wutang112878 said:
The bolded is the problem.  To be better than mediocre there are a lot of ifs:  If Rondo is healthy, if Green continues to improve, if KG doesnt drop off rapidly, if PP doesnt drop off rapidly, if Sully comes back healthy from pretty major surgery.  Thats a lot of ifs for a team that was basically 500 with a healthy Rondo, those games happened and we cant just ignore them. 
 
 
So when we judge keeping it together vs move onto to the next team, we need to remember the chances against this team are huge.
 
Not to mention that its pretty clear Doc doesn't want to come back, which may lead KG to retire.  So at a minimum you want all these things to go right with a new coach and a new system and there's also some chance that you're talking about everything going right without KG, which doesn't lead anywhere good anyway.
 
Its over and its time to turn the page.  Ainge held on to the bitter end and now we're there.
 

ALiveH

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dhellers said:
The problem I always have with the "we need to  start afresh now" viewpoint is the tight focus on how a rebuild can work, with short shrift to the chance that a 5-8 year process delivers nothing memorable.
 
It seems that Ainge is not willing to keep the band together for one more try  -- I interpret Doc's wandering eye as evidence that PP won't have his option picked up. Still, it ain't happened yet so let me state a rationale for keeping the current core together: that the odds of such a team being truely interesting are in the same ballpark as the best year in a 5-8 year rebuild.
What about the 5 years it took Ainge to build a championship when he was starting with a much worse roster than he would have in a rebuild now?
 
 
dhellers said:
TRight now the current core is NOT  bound to  be a mediocre team -- there are several pieces that could be better. A healthy Rondo could start to make the Tony Parker evolution (developing a competent jump shot).  A fully recovered Green, with starter responsibiltiy, becomes more consistent. A fully recovered Bradley plays like spring 2012. A repaired Sullinger plays like a top 5 pick. Judicioius use of PP and KG mean they play as well (per minute) AND are in good shape in the playoffs. Lee/Bass/Terry play at their average.
The compounded odds of all those things happening is in the ballpark of 1-3%.  Do you honestly believe that the odds of rebuilding a champion inside 8 years is lower than that after Ainge already did it in 5 with a worse starting point?
 
 
dhellers said:
T  a good team with players I know (that has some hope of winning it all) is more fun to watch than a lousy one with a slightly greater hope several years down the line.
At some point you have to accept that the record says you are what you are.  This year we were in NBA purgatory (.500 team, 1st round exit).  And we heavily relied on two players near retirement not suffering major injuries & playing at elite levels in limited minutes.  I am not confident we'll be any better next year.  I wonder how many years of NBA purgatory you'd like to watch because with a average team every year you have hope of winning a championship if everybody plays to their full potential and completely avoids injury.
 
dhellers said:
IOW:  Why not entertain old fashioned (i.e.; reputed to be obsolete) loyalty and err on the side of keeping it together?
Do you mean before free agency existed and there was an exploitative relationship whereby Red (and other owners) could pay the best players peanuts because it was take-it-or-leave-it?  That kind of "old-fashioned loyalty"?  Or do you mean the kind of loyalty we had to the '80s Big 3 where we watched them all broken-down playing their hearts out in early playoff losses and didn't get any value back from them?
 

wutang112878

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Rudy Pemberton said:
Every team that rebuilds think this, and very few succeed. What are the odds that Ainge is even here in 5 years?
 
Developing a championship caliber roster from scratch, well..it's going to take longer than 5 years.
 
Thats kind of a scared losers mentality though.  Just focusing on the odds against success, doesnt mean you shouldnt try to be successful.  I truly think Ainge is better than most GMs, and last I checked the Celts dont hang conference championship banners, so even with the odds against us I say we go for a title.  Because ultimately we are going to regress to the mean and wont have the most titles, so should we not try until the odds are in our favor of winning again?
 

zenter

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Oct 11, 2005
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wutang112878 said:
Thats kind of a scared losers mentality though.  Just focusing on the odds against success, doesnt mean you shouldnt try to be successful.  I truly think Ainge is better than most GMs, and last I checked the Celts dont hang conference championship banners, so even with the odds against us I say we go for a title.  Because ultimately we are going to regress to the mean and wont have the most titles, so should we not try until the odds are in our favor of winning again?
 
Oh my. This is a classic bureaucracy trap you're falling into. "We must do something - anything - to prove that we're acting (ie, not scared losers), rather than simply taking the most efficient/effective actions possible. Especially if the alternative is not doing." It's a make-work mentality and, honestly, it's bad for business in nearly every situation.... Including this one.
 
Competing in the NBA isn't a game of chicken (scared losers vs. confident winners). You want to maximize positive outcomes and make deals that ultimately improve the team. Making deals for the sake of making deals never works. So, even if a team commits to rebuild, it's not committing to being stupid. So, if there's a reasonable (ie, balanced) offer that serves the team's makeup in the long run, sure, the team should do it. So far, what has there been?
 
If you're arguing that the entire team should be given away for a draft-based rebuild, then you absolutely MUST play the numbers and see how successful it has been. I see no argument that being thoughtful and rational about strategic decisions is ever worse than being reactive and emotional. Being thoughtful, rational, and careful (though not risk-averse) is what I expect of my CEO, my boss and myself. Why shouldn't I expect it of my basketball team?
 

wutang112878

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Rudy Pemberton said:
A rebuild is nice, but I'd feel better if the C's were actually rebuilding around something. As of now, they'd be rebuidling around a coaching staff and roster that is completely theoretical. It's not as if there are a few core players people want to rebuild around, it's completely starting over.
 
If there were a few core pieces, we would revamp not rebuild.  Very few teams look at one title team, and find the path to the next title team is to keep player A, B, C and go from there.  Beyond the Spurs with Duncan, and Lakers with Kobe there really isnt another example of this.  So unless you one of these true franchise players, who can be a franchise player for another 5 years, you basically have to go find a new one.
 
Go back to the original team that Danny took over.  The only player on that team that was on the 08 team was Pierce.  Maybe that could be Rondo, but most maybe 1 or 2 players on this current roster will be on the next title winning team.  I bet that 1-2 players thing is also true of the Shaq Lakers to Gasol Lakers titles, and Robinson/Spurs title to the last Spurs title.  It sucks, I hear you, its just an unavoidable crappy process.
 

TroyOLeary

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Jul 22, 2005
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wutang112878 said:
If there were a few core pieces, we would revamp not rebuild.  Very few teams look at one title team, and find the path to the next title team is to keep player A, B, C and go from there.  Beyond the Spurs with Duncan, and Lakers with Kobe there really isnt another example of this.  So unless you one of these true franchise players, who can be a franchise player for another 5 years, you basically have to go find a new one.
 
Go back to the original team that Danny took over.  The only player on that team that was on the 08 team was Pierce.  Maybe that could be Rondo, but most maybe 1 or 2 players on this current roster will be on the next title winning team.  I bet that 1-2 players thing is also true of the Shaq Lakers to Gasol Lakers titles, and Robinson/Spurs title to the last Spurs title.  It sucks, I hear you, its just an unavoidable crappy process.
 
Here's my problems with arguments like this - there have been very few title teams period.
 
Let's assume, as we're talking about tanking and bottoming out and the plusses and minuses, that we just look at the lottery era.
 
Well, then, for all intents and purposes, there have been only 11 "teams" that have won the championship:
 
1) The Heat with Wade
2) 10-11 Mavs
3) The Lakers with Kobe
4) 07-08 Celtics
5) The Spurs with Duncan
6) 03-04 Pistons
7) The Bulls with Jordan
8) The Rockets back-to-back
9) The Pistons back-to-back
10) 80s Lakers
11) 80s Celtics
 
And that's being generous, as it's a bit of a stretch to even include those 80s teams, as the game and player movement has drastically changed since then.
 
I count three of those teams that fit your criteria - the two you listed, and the Heat with Wade; they were only bad one year between those championships and all it got them was Michael Beasley.
 
Now, I'm not sure I necessarily disagree with blowing it up in some fashion (I dislike the Clippers trade in particular), but I don't agree with the premise that blowing it up is a better tactic in general, especially using evidence from an extremely limited sample size.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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zenter said:
Oh my. This is a classic bureaucracy trap you're falling into. "We must do something - anything - to prove that we're acting (ie, not scared losers), rather than simply taking the most efficient/effective actions possible. Especially if the alternative is not doing." It's a make-work mentality and, honestly, it's bad for business in nearly every situation.... Including this one.
 
Competing in the NBA isn't a game of chicken (scared losers vs. confident winners). You want to maximize positive outcomes and make deals that ultimately improve the team. Making deals for the sake of making deals never works. So, even if a team commits to rebuild, it's not committing to being stupid. So, if there's a reasonable (ie, balanced) offer that serves the team's makeup in the long run, sure, the team should do it. So far, what has there been?
 
If you're arguing that the entire team should be given away for a draft-based rebuild, then you absolutely MUST play the numbers and see how successful it has been. I see no argument that being thoughtful and rational about strategic decisions is ever worse than being reactive and emotional. Being thoughtful, rational, and careful (though not risk-averse) is what I expect of my CEO, my boss and myself. Why shouldn't I expect it of my basketball team?
 
But a "thoughtful, rational, and careful" look at the contemporary NBA reveals two basic truths.  First, the most viable path (maybe still a long-shot, but much better odds relatively speaking than the alternative) to rebuilding into an elite team involves drafting in the Top 10 for several years.  Second, if you're going to draft in the Top 10, you want to do it when the draft pool contains unusually high levels of elite talent, like the 2014 draft.
 
The single best most valuable asset that we could obtain in the upcoming rebuild is a high pick in the 2014 draft.  No other asset, either currently on the team or available in trade, comes close in value.  So the worst thing that Ainge could do is some variant of little-to-nothing that leaves us unable to secure that asset.
 

Stitch01

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Then they should use a Brewsters Millions strategy and give away assets as fast as they can right now. Do the Clippers trade, take the best offer for Green, sell Rondo for 30 cents on the dollar or whatever you can get post-ACL, and suck out loud trying to win 15 games and get a high '14 draft pick.   Doing the Clippers trade in isolation leaves them a 35 win team and without a high pick in that '14 draft.