Bruins Offseason

[MiracleOfO2704]

Well, this’ll be fun.

UFAs
F Patrice Bergeron
F David Krejci
F Tyler Bertuzzi
F Nick Foligno
F Tomas Nosek
F Garnet Hathaway
F Chris Wagner
D Dmitri Orlov
D Connor Clifton

RFAs
F Trent Frederic (Arbitration Eligible)
F Jakub Lauko
G Jeremy Swayman (Arbitration Eligible)

They have 7 forwards, 7 defencemen, and a goalie at nearly $73m. They also have to pay $4.5m in bonuses from this season.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Tear it down to the studs including Sweeney and Monty.

Lindholm would get a nice return, Ulmark as well. Any player that will not be a core piece in 4 years should be moved for picks/prospects.

 

[BaseballJones]

Tear it down to the studs including Sweeney and Monty.

Lindholm would get a nice return, Ulmark as well. Any player that will not be a core piece in 4 years should be moved for picks/prospects.

So say goodbye to Marchand as well? And why Sweeney? Seems like he's done a good job. This isn't on him.

But I'm on board with the concept here.

 

[Haunted]

I do not trust this management structure to do what needs to be done.

 

[OurF'ingCity]

I do not trust this management structure to do what needs to be done.

Begging the question - what needs to be done?

 

[j-man]

Tear it down to the studs including Sweeney and Monty.

Lindholm would get a nice return, Ulmark as well. Any player that will not be a core piece in 4 years should be moved for picks/prospects.

i can understand that feeling but hockey is all about mo and being in the right place time the bad thing about tanking in hockey is unless u get a top 3 pick in a cant miss year u can miss and turn in to a .500 team for 5 years

 

[Haunted]

Begging the question - what needs to be done?

Look at that UFA list and their existing budget. Their farm system is Red Sox 2020 level.

I don’t think my comment begs any question.

 

[Silverdude2167]

So say goodbye to Marchand as well? And why Sweeney? Seems like he's done a good job. This isn't on him.

But I'm on board with the concept here.

I'm torn on Marchand, for the right return I would move him even though I love him.

Sweeney has proven good at one thing, deadline deals. He is not the guy you want leading a rebuild.

 

[MiracleOfO2704]

Begging the question - what needs to be done?

First, money 100% has to go out. Frederic is getting a modest raise, and Swayman a significant one. That’s going to take up a big chunk of the $6 million they have left to the cap. Now, they can sign up to ~$90 million in the offseason, but would have to be cap compliant on day 1.
After that, it’s be nice to get one more top-6 centre to compliment Zacha/Coyle/Frederic. Defence may be okay, but it’s also where the money out is likely to come from. All three trade deadline guys are gone, barring bigger moves. The kids in Providence are 100% coming up en masse regardless of the gymnastics they do, so Lysell, Merkulov, and McLaughlin are going to be the reinforcements.
The literal $1 million question is Bergeron. He’s in his age 38 season, and while he looked good, the herniated disc was obviously a problem for him. He’s accomplished everything he needs to get his place in Toronto, so it’s down to whether he’s comfortable with that being his curtain call or not. It’d have to be another 1/$1m with easy-to-obtain bonuses (something that won’t hurt as bad as the cap is expected to jump from $83.5 million in 2023-24 to $87.5m-$88m in 2024-25), but he’s in the Chara post-2016 zone.

 

[wiffleballhero]

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BOS/2023_salary-cap.html

Might be worth having this link handy

 

[wiffleballhero]

Of the RFAs I'd like to also see Lauko back. It seems like he has a very nice game that got a little buried. And he's young, can play center and he's fast as hell.

 

[jbupstate]

Move Marchand? Lindholm?

Let’s not overreact. The team without Bergeron and Krejci need work but everyone already knew that.

The Bruins still have a few great player (Pasta, McAvoy) and a bunch of good players. Not much depth but the base of a playoff team. Hope Lysell and Lohrei develop and smartly add.

Sweeney did a great job this season. Monty did a great job during the regular season getting the most out of the team until the best players underperformed.

 

[wiffleballhero]

The idea of burning it all down is not a realistic read on what is already in place.

The literal $1 million question is Bergeron.

The Bruins will be better with him than without.

I wish there was a way to move Forbort and Reilly.

 

[PedroSpecialK]

If they move Swayman, it's got to be for a cheap C, ideally with upside to take pressure of Zacha/Coyle as 1C/2C. That's not gonna be an easy needle to thread.

Lift the fucking puck Marchand

 

[gattman]

The idea of burning it all down is not a realistic read on what is already in place.



The Bruins will be better with him than without.

I wish there was a way to move Forbort and Reilly.

$7.5 mil in what should be their 7th & 8th d-men. Die was cast on this a while ago but it will likely hang over their heads next year. To me, the key is figuring out who is part of the next Bs core, And if someone is not, move on now. Get what you can. This should lead to some tough decisions (Ullmark, and a few others) but tonight felt like the end of an era. Fuck

 

[Salem's Lot]

Nobody is taking Forbort or Reilly without a 1st attached. Eat the money and try to develop a couple of kids next year.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Begging the question - what needs to be done?

New ownership.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

New ownership.

What's wrong with ownership? Literally have let the management team spend to the cap for almost two decades. They just gave Pasta all the money.

Misguided assessment.

 

[scottyno]

This whole thread seems premature until we know what's happening with Bergeron and Krejci. The direction of the 2023 24 bruins changes drastically depending on if they want to play another year. And I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has any clue if either of them is coming back or not.

 

[Salem's Lot]

What's wrong with ownership? Literally have let the management team spend to the cap for almost two decades. They just gave Pasta all the money.

Misguided assessment.

You know people just like to swoop in with the same old tripe. Ownership spends every year. No one on the planet wants the Bruins to win the cup more than Cam Neely. Do they make the right decisions all the time? No. But Sweeney pulled a regular season rabbit out of the hat this year that didn’t translate in the playoffs, so they lost in the first round, which was where most people thought that they would finish in September anyway. I think he’s earned the right to try and build. Just find a top 6 center.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

This whole thread seems premature until we know what's happening with Bergeron and Krejci. The direction of the 2023 24 bruins changes drastically depending on if they want to play another year. And I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has any clue if either of them is coming back or not.

This is ttue but at the same time, that means management are held hostage, not knowing what they are planning for.

 

[Dummy Hoy]

I predict this thread, started at this time, will be one of the dumbest threads this board has ever seen. It's off to a great start.

 

[IdiotKicker]

All of the below assumes that you don’t have Bergeron and Krejci back on really cheap deals again. Happy to be surprised the other way, but I think my working assumption is that they aren’t back.

What do the Bruins have going forward? If you’re looking at the core for the next team, it’s McAvoy, Lindholm, Pasternak, Zacha, DeBrusk, Swayman. Swayman needs to be re-signed this year, DeBrusk next. While it is lacking in top-end talent at C, that’s a great core to build around for the next 5-8 years. Two big, mobile D-men, an elite goal-scorer in Pasta, and Zacha and DeBrusk are established top-6 players. The long-term future here is fine. And the next couple years you still have Marchand, Coyle, Hall, Carlo as well, but I don’t think they make it to new contracts after that. Coyle you need right now at C, and Marchand I wouldn’t move unless bowled over, but I’d be taking calls on Hall even though he has a partial NMC, and Carlo, though he played well this year, could be a candidate to move for salary reasons, though his contract isn’t bad if he’s healthy.

Next year is the crunch before a bunch of cap space opens up. So you being up Lysell, Merkulov, McLoughlin, and Steen and basically have to ride with them in your bottom 6. You’ll still need two cheap Cs, so if you can make Frederic work at one of those spots on a new deal, then you grab a cheap veteran for the rest.

On D, you’ve gotta move out one of Forbort, Gryz, or Reilly to clear space. Other than that you’re cool, but obviously not as deep as this year.

So next year’s roster probably has all kinds of messy holes and rookies in the bottom 6, but it’s a one-year mess that resolves itself to a good deal of cap room in 2024-25, even if we assume that Swayman and DeBrusk end up getting $10-12M between them on the cap for new deals. They need a 1C, but those guys basically have to be found in the draft, as they don’t really move or come available very often. And the draft picture is barren the next couple years. I don’t think a tear-down is necessary, but if they want to be more aggressive and use guys like Marchand and Coyle to re-load draft picks, I get it, but that wouldn’t be my approach at this point. Patch your holes for next year, and then spend where you can for better long-term solutions after that, particularly if you can somehow weasel your way into a true 1C.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

What do the Bruins have going forward? If you’re looking at the core for the next team, it’s McAvoy, Lindholm, Pasternak, Zacha, DeBrusk, Swayman.

Serious question: why should we rely on any of that core when they have shown they cannot win in the playoffs? I mean it.

McAvoy and Lindholm were deplorable in their defensive end in this series. Absolutely bottom 10% of the league performance. Zacha was invisible. Pasta took 5 games off. DeBrusk had long stretches of nothing. Swayman played alright in his cameo but not good enough and cracked first in OT, giving him two Game 7 losses already in his short career without a win.

I am extremely skeptical that this core has anthing near to what it takes to win a Cup. Hell, I'm doubtful they can win a playoff round or two. The talent is there in spades. The ability to avoid choking in the biggest games is not.

McAvoy in particular is a sobering disappointment. He was clearly in panic mode the whole series. I don't think it's wise to build a defensive core around a player like that.

I honestly think they need a full tear down and rebuild. You can't count on any of these guys to step it up in the postseason.

 

[lexrageorge]

Like every team, there is a core, and the B's still have a good core even assuming the anticipated retirements and free agent departures. Of the UFA's, it will suck to lose Orlov the most, but sometimes fans just need to accept the cap is not "crap".

I would move on from Montgomery. Management needs to send a message that more is expected than regular season success followed by early playoff exits, and Montgomery was badly outcoached this series. For whatever reason, the Bruins have not had a run of playoff success that the Tampa's and other past teams (Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh) had. There is plenty of talented and young coaches among the myriad of assistants and D1 college coaches with pro experience, and having someone that doesn't have to answer to "last year" will pay dividends during the upcoming season.

 

[IdiotKicker]

Serious question: why should we rely on any of that core when they have shown they cannot win in the playoffs? I mean it.

McAvoy and Lindholm were deplorable in their defensive end in this series. Absolutely bottom 10% of the league performance. Zacha was invisible. Pasta took 5 games off. DeBrusk had long stretches of nothing. Swayman played alright in his cameo but not good enough and cracked first in OT, giving him two Game 7 losses already in his short career without a win.

I am extremely skeptical that this core has anthing near to what it takes to win a Cup. Hell, I'm doubtful they can win a playoff round or two. The talent is there in spades. The ability to avoid choking in the biggest games is not.

I honestly think they need a full tear down and rebuild. You can't count on any of these guys to step it up in the postseason.

Because if you asked the same question about Bergeron or Chara after the 2010 meltdown vs Philly, you would have come to the same conclusion and then they won the cup the next year. Weird shit happens in playoff hockey. I don’t like how the last week went either, but this is kind of insane. If Orlov‘s shot goes in last night instead of hitting the post, we aren’t even having this conversation yet. If Swayman starts game 6 instead of game 7, we probably aren’t having this conversation either. Not every playoff series has to be a referendum on someone’s career.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Because if you asked the same question about Bergeron or Chara after the 2010 meltdown vs Philly, you would have come to the same conclusion and then they won the cup the next year. Weird shit happens in playoff hockey. I don’t like how the last week went either, but this is kind of insane. If Orlov‘s shot goes in last night instead of hitting the post, we aren’t even having this conversation yet. If Swayman starts game 6 instead of game 7, we probably aren’t having this conversation either. Not every playoff series has to be a referendum on someone’s career.

Every series is in fact a referendum on someone's career. Roberto Luongo can attest to that.

We talk about "ifs" every year and every year the "ifs" go against the Bruins. It's rather remarkable that they always come up short.

The Bruins have been choking away playoff series for the last 20 years save for 2011, and they've usually done so in absolutely epic fashion. This particlar core hasn't won a goddamn thing, and their epic collapse this season despite regular season success shows that they are fundamentally flawed. They lacked the ability to avoid panic in their own zone the entire series, and when faced with an inferior opponent that had the temerity to try hard, they completely turtled. The ability to overcome adversity is every bit as important as skating and shooting and passing and defensive zone coverage, and it's clear that this team lacks it completely. That's not something that can be overcome with time and space.

The core isn't capable of stepping it up in the postseason, and needs to be changed. You cannot have your top 2 defensemen puking on their skates every time they touch the puck in their own end.

The core isn't good enough.

 

[IdiotKicker]

Every series is in fact a referendum on someone's career. We talk about "ifs" every year and every year the "ifs" go against the Bruins. It's rather remarkable that they always come up short.

The Bruins have been choking away playoff series for the last 20 years save for 2011, and they've usually done so in absolutely epic fashion. This particlar core hasn't won a goddamn thing, and their epic collapse this season despite regular season success shows that they are fundamentally flawed. They lacked the ability to avoid panic in their own zone the entire series, and when faced with an inferior opponent that had the temerity to try hard, they completely turtled. That's not something that can be overcome with time and space. The core isn't capable of stepping it up in the postseason, and needs to be changed. You cannot have your top 2 defensemen puking on their skates every time they touch the puck in their own end.

No, most of the time for the last 20 years they simply haven’t been good enough. If you want to make the case that this year they were good enough, but they blew it, you’re completely right. When you have 3 different 1-goal leads in the third periods of game 6 and 7, you should win at least one of those games. That’s what fucking stings to me. They actually did the work to win these games despite not playing well, and then they couldn’t finish. It sucks. But sometimes you have to go through some failures before you finally win. And top teams not delivering in the playoffs is an NHL-wide thing. There’s a reason people are skeptical of Presidents winners. Playoff hockey has all kind of weird bounces that result in the favorites very rarely winning the cup compared to other sports. So please quit with the crap that this Bruins team is uniquely awful, because a) they’re not, b), this loss has literally nothing to do with the last 20 years given the age of players I’m talking about as the new core, and c) aside from Tom Brady, basically no one has the easy path to playoff victory without some crushing setbacks before breaking through.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Serious question: why should we rely on any of that core when they have shown they cannot win in the playoffs? I mean it.

McAvoy and Lindholm were deplorable in their defensive end in this series. Absolutely bottom 10% of the league performance. Zacha was invisible. Pasta took 5 games off. DeBrusk had long stretches of nothing. Swayman played alright in his cameo but not good enough and cracked first in OT, giving him two Game 7 losses already in his short career without a win.

I am extremely skeptical that this core has anthing near to what it takes to win a Cup. Hell, I'm doubtful they can win a playoff round or two. The talent is there in spades. The ability to avoid choking in the biggest games is not.

McAvoy in particular is a sobering disappointment. He was clearly in panic mode the whole series. I don't think it's wise to build a defensive core around a player like that.

I honestly think they need a full tear down and rebuild. You can't count on any of these guys to step it up in the postseason.

Swayman would have been the #1 star in this game if McAvoy had not deflected a shot he would have stopped. I don't think you can (rightly) criticize the play of the whole team in front of him and then not credit him for almost winning anyway.

I don't understand McAvoy. His series was that disappointing, although maybe not as disappointing as Lindholm's.

 

[Silverdude2167]

I am in camp blow it up, but not because of how people played in this series.

There were 3 coin-flip games and they lost all of them. That is playoff hockey and I don't really think that is on the players.
Looking at round 2 in the Atlantic, I think you can easily say that the better teams from round 1 are not there. The two teams that are there are 5-0 in OT, anyways...

Like I said above while groggy and depressed. Blow it up, keep the core that will be here in 3-4 years, and get some picks prospects.
Lindholm, Ulmark, and Brad (if it's a godfather offer) should fetch a nice return. Use what you can get to build around Charlie, Pasta, Zacha, and Swayman starting in 2026.
Personally, I would flip Ulmark back to the Sabers for their first this year if he doesn't have an NMC to them.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

So please quit with the crap that this Bruins team is uniquely awful, because a) they’re not, b), this loss has literally nothing to do with the last 20 years given the age of players I’m talking about as the new core, and c) aside from Tom Brady, basically no one has the easy path to playoff victory without some crushing setbacks before breaking through.

They set points and wins records in the regular season and promply collapsed in the playoffs. Respectfully: they are uniquely awful. There's no excuse for that whatsoever. Their best players played their worst hockey at the most important times. They had a 3-1 series lead against a team nowhere as talented as they are and they collapsed.

I have no idea how they can overcome this going forward. That kind of collapse and public humiliation lingers for years. Look at Vancouver after 2011.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I don't understand McAvoy. His series was that disappointing, although maybe not as disappointing as Lindholm's.

It's pretty simple. He choked under the pressure.

 

[jbupstate]

Trading Lindholm talk is insane. He wasn’t great this series but way better than McAvoy. You do not trade top pair defensemen on good contracts. They are not easily replaceable.

 

[kenneycb]

They set points and wins records in the regular season and promply collapsed in the playoffs. Respectfully: they are uniquely awful. There's no excuse for that whatsoever. Their best players played their worst hockey at the most important times.

I have no idea how they can overcome this going forward. That kind of collapse and public humiliation lingers for years. Look at Vancouver after 2011.

Look at the Tampa Bay Lightning. Oh shit, that doesn't fit the "sky is falling" narrative!

Note they are not Tampa. But you're cherry picking.

 

[jezza1918]

They set points and wins records in the regular season and promply collapsed in the playoffs. Respectfully: they are uniquely awful. There's no excuse for that whatsoever. Their best players played their worst hockey at the most important times.

I have no idea how they can overcome this going forward. That kind of collapse and public humiliation lingers for years. Look at Vancouver after 2011.

The last team to do this got swept in the first round (and choking away a 3-0 lead in game 1 no less). I agree with most of this post...but not sure it makes them uniquely awful.

 

[lexrageorge]

Every series is in fact a referendum on someone's career. Roberto Luongo can attest to that.

We talk about "ifs" every year and every year the "ifs" go against the Bruins. It's rather remarkable that they always come up short.

The Bruins have been choking away playoff series for the last 20 years save for 2011, and they've usually done so in absolutely epic fashion. This particlar core hasn't won a goddamn thing, and their epic collapse this season despite regular season success shows that they are fundamentally flawed. They lacked the ability to avoid panic in their own zone the entire series, and when faced with an inferior opponent that had the temerity to try hard, they completely turtled. The ability to overcome adversity is every bit as important as skating and shooting and passing and defensive zone coverage, and it's clear that this team lacks it completely. That's not something that can be overcome with time and space.

The core isn't capable of stepping it up in the postseason, and needs to be changed. You cannot have your top 2 defensemen puking on their skates every time they touch the puck in their own end.

The core isn't good enough.

Blowing up the existing core would lead to a 10-15 year rebuild. Look at how many teams have been trying to "rebuild" for years: Red Wings haven't made the playoffs since 2016 and aren't close to returning. Sabres last time in the playoffs was the same year the Bruins won the Cup, and they were still on the outside looking in when the points settled this year. Edmonton took a 10 year hiatus in the playoffs, and made some brief returns to bubble status only after they lucked out in the draft and netted two generational talents, and they still have an uncertain path given their defensive deficiencies. BlackHawks are years away from returning to the playoffs; at least they won 3 Cups. Meanwhile, Tampa didn't throw out their core after losing in 2019.

Better coaching can fix the poor play from the blue line in the playoffs and the other deficiencies you noted, and there is a glut of coaching talent available.

 

[jbupstate]

Orlov hits the crossbar. McAvoy deflects a shot. Pasta hit the shaft of Bobs goalie stick.
The NHL payoffs do not go according to plan.
Colorado? The Panthers were top tier last year.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Blowing up the existing core would lead to a 10-15 year rebuild. Look at how many teams have been trying to "rebuild" for years: Red Wings haven't made the playoffs since 2016 and aren't close to returning. Sabres last time in the playoffs was the same year the Bruins won the Cup, and they were still on the outside looking in when the points settled this year. Edmonton took a 10 year hiatus in the playoffs, and made some brief returns to bubble status only after they lucked out in the draft and netted two generational talents, and they still have an uncertain path given their defensive deficiencies. BlackHawks are years away from returning to the playoffs; at least they won 3 Cups. Meanwhile, Tampa didn't throw out their core after losing in 2019.

Better coaching can fix the poor play from the blue line in the playoffs and the other deficiencies you noted, and there is a glut of coaching talent available.

The Tampa comparisons are not applicable, because they IIRC didn't face the same cap crunch this team is facing, and they had a MUCH better goalie who could steal them playoff games. The Bruins have neither of those things.

There needs to be a very hard look in the mirror for this team. Bottle jobs like this are a real test of their strength as an organization. I hope they understand they were not good enough in nearly every key area. Going with band aid fixes won't be nearly enough.

I don't believe the team has the fortitude to replace Monty, although they should. He's clearly not up for the task of postseason hockey.

 

[kenneycb]

The Tampa comparisons are not applicable, because they IIRC didn't face the same cap crunch this team is facing, and they had a MUCH better goalie who could steal them playoff games. The Bruins have neither of those things.

So public humiliation and embarrassment from these types of losses lasts for years unless it doesn't.

 

[lexrageorge]

The Tampa comparisons are not applicable, because they IIRC didn't face the same cap crunch this team is facing, and they had a MUCH better goalie who could steal them playoff games. The Bruins have neither of those things.

The other teams I noted are directly applicable if we are going down the "blow it up" path, but you chose to ignore that point. Tampa's goalie was considered a choke artist until he actually did steal some playoff games the following season, the 2nd point you chose to ignore.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I woke up this morning with the horrible thought that Torts of all people would have been a better coach for this series than Monty. And I fucking despise Torts.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Trading Lindholm talk is insane. He wasn’t great this series but way better than McAvoy. You do not trade top pair defensemen on good contracts. They are not easily replaceable.

You do if he is going to be 35 before you are contending again. What good does he do on a team that is going to hope to make the wildcard spot.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

So public humiliation and embarrassment from these types of losses lasts for years unless it doesn't.

Character matters too and this team clearly lacks it.

That Tampa team that lost to Columbus had at least made the conference finals the year before. This team has lost two consecutive Game 7s in the first round. It's not the same thing.

 

[Salem's Lot]

McAvoy and Lindholm are both at the beginning of 8 year deals. They are going to be here for a long time. Get them a number 1 Center, a couple of bottom pairing guys that can actually keep opposing forwards off the goalies, and a decent playoff coach, and they can win.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Trade one of the goalies. Otherwise, retool and try again. Don’t overreact to one series. The “this core is over and the future is bleak” posts have been written at the end of at least the last five seasons. Eventually, they will be right.

 

[jezza1918]

Character matters too and this team clearly lacks it.

That Tampa team that lost to Columbus had at least made the conference finals the year before. This team has lost two consecutive Game 7s in the first round. It's not the same thing.

And in that conference finals had a 3-2 lead and lost the next two games a combined 7-0 in disgusting fashion that I'm sure most Lightning fans called a choke job. Game 7 was at home. The next year, after a record tying regular season, they didn't make it to game 7 because they got swept. Maybe the Bruins last 2 years in the playoffs is worse, but if so it's by a hair. I'm not trying to excuse this collapse, or make the argument the Bruins will be in the same shape going forward as Tampa was the next few years...but it just wasn't uniquely terrible IMO.

 

[kenneycb]

Character matters too and this team clearly lacks it.

That Tampa team that lost to Columbus had at least made the conference finals the year before. This team has lost two consecutive Game 7s in the first round. It's not the same thing.

What about the players that made it to the Finals against the Blues? Or do they not have character according to your arbitrary and made up scale because they lost in Game 7? You made a stupid point. Stop digging.

 

[lexrageorge]

You do if he is going to be 35 before you are contending again. What good does he do on a team that is going to hope to make the wildcard spot.

The wild card team is now advancing to the 2nd round. BlackHawks won the Cup as a wild card team. And the Bruins core w/ Lindholm may be better than that of a wild card team.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

What about the players that made it to the Finals against the Blues? Or do they not have character according to your arbitrary and made up scale because they lost in Game 7? You made a stupid point. Stop digging.

You're really going to use the BLUES series as some sort of evidence of mental fortitude? The team that didn't show up for Game 7 at home? Seriously?

Christ man. I don't know what to say. It's ok to note that this team choked badly against a vastly inferior opponent. And yes, that's a major character issue. They played scared out of their goddamn minds. They need to address that flaw this summer.

 

[Dummy Hoy]

The vast majority of the posts are reactionary and frankly ridiculous. I made a game thread for this kind of shit that frankly devalues the kind of generally high level discourse that occurs around here.