Bradley: Deal with It.

NoXInNixon

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 24, 2008
5,325
Checking out his lifetime numbers, I noticed that he has yet to be caught stealing in the majors. Makes sense since he has elite speed. Yet he has only 13 steals. He's been on first base a total of 138 times as a result of a single or walk. I don't know how many of those times someone was already on second, but I also don't know how many times he was on first as a result of a fielder's choice. Nevertheless, he's attempted a steal only about 10% of the time, which an unusually low number for someone with his speed. The stolen base leaders all seem to be attempting steals around 20-30% of the time they're on first.
 
Is it a result of Bradley hitting so low in the order?
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,665
Melrose, MA
NoXInNixon said:
Checking out his lifetime numbers, I noticed that he has yet to be caught stealing in the majors. Makes sense since he has elite speed. Yet he has only 13 steals. He's been on first base a total of 138 times as a result of a single or walk. I don't know how many of those times someone was already on second, but I also don't know how many times he was on first as a result of a fielder's choice. Nevertheless, he's attempted a steal only about 10% of the time, which an unusually low number for someone with his speed. The stolen base leaders all seem to be attempting steals around 20-30% of the time they're on first.
 
Is it a result of Bradley hitting so low in the order?
 
He doesn't have elite speed.  He's not by any means slow, but his range is the OF is mainly due to great jumps, anticipation, and efficiency.  
 
http://www.soxprospects.com/players/bradley-jackie.htm
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,304
Santa Monica
Maybe they should roll the dice and move JBJ up in the order, inch him up to #7 in the line-up and see how he responds.  
 
I know, i know - don't mess with success, but my guess is it won't bother him in the least.
 
Also want to see Betts play some games in LF.  I'd like to see if he can play a shallow/aggressive LF and see how is arm plays on hard hit balls off the Monster.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,665
Melrose, MA
shaggydog2000 said:
 
Yup, he's got 48 stolen bases in 5 seasons between majors and minors.  It's not a significant part of his game, and I wouldn't expect to be in the future.  
The surprising thing is that he had 35 steals vs 23 caught in the minors and is 13-0 in the majors.
 

Boggs26

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2005
1,152
Ashburnham, MA
Eddie Jurak said:
The surprising thing is that he had 35 steals vs 23 caught in the minors and is 13-0 in the majors.
Might some of that be due to better scouting and video study in the majors vs the minors?
 

Buzzkill Pauley

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 30, 2006
10,569
Boggs26 said:
Might some of that be due to better scouting and video study in the majors vs the minors?
Probably it's about being more selective in taking his attempts.

JBJ's Pawtucket line is 11 SB, 12 CS. That suggests to me he can succeed at aggressively taking what the pitcher gives to him, but that he can't get good enough jumps to swipe bags if he's actively being held on.
 

RG33

Certain Class of Poster
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2005
7,223
CA
It really is great to be having this conversation. Somewhere in the historical byline of Ben Cherington, one of his best moves may end up being not giving up on JBJ. It is a pretty good illustration of why you hang on to young guys that show even one elite skill. The potential to watch this OF for the next 5+ years is the most exciting aspect of being a Sox fan in what feels like a lot longer time than it should.
 

E5 Yaz

polka king
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,484
Oregon
Buzzkill Pauley said:
Probably it's about being more selective in taking his attempts.

JBJ's Pawtucket line is 11 SB, 12 CS. That suggests to me he can succeed at aggressively taking what the pitcher gives to him, but that he can't get good enough jumps to swipe bags if he's actively being held on.
 
Plus ... he's not hitting very many singles
 

leftfieldlegacy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2005
1,009
North Jersey
benhogan said:
Maybe they should roll the dice and move JBJ up in the order, inch him up to #7 in the line-up and see how he responds.  
 
I know, i know - don't mess with success, but my guess is it won't bother him in the least.
 
Also want to see Betts play some games in LF.  I'd like to see if he can play a shallow/aggressive LF and see how is arm plays on hard hit balls off the Monster.
 
I like having JBJ and Mookie back to back at 9-1 and have no problem keeping him where he is. 
 
Unless the RS want to move him to one of the top 3 spots to try and get an extra PA each game, then I would let him stay at 9. Moving him to 7 seems too cautious. 
 
I have no doubt he would be great in LF,  but I just think with his excellent breaks and routes to the ball and his arm strength he will be slotted in CF or RF. Having Rusney, JBJ and Betts rotate around each outfield position for the rest of this season to see how each handles the wall is not a bad idea. 
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
RGREELEY33 said:
It really is great to be having this conversation. Somewhere in the historical byline of Ben Cherington, one of his best moves may end up being not giving up on JBJ. It is a pretty good illustration of why you hang on to young guys that show even one elite skill. The potential to watch this OF for the next 5+ years is the most exciting aspect of being a Sox fan in what feels like a lot longer time than it should.
 
True, but of course we have no idea what his market was. BC could very easily have been shopping him in the offseason and getting a bag of balls offer in return. 
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
Which is exactly my point. He tried to trade him for a reliever and got denied. And he got offered an unknown quantity from the worst farm system in baseball and declined himself. He obviously made the right move on the latter there, I'm just saying maybe he fell ass backwards into JBJ panning out. Quite simply, we don't know and I'm just not sure we should be patting him on the back for #staythecourse. Not trying to kick dirt on his grave, just also not dolling out huzzahs. He simply may not have had any decent options to move him.
 

Pumpsie

The Kilimanjaro of bullshit
SoSH Member
leftfieldlegacy said:
 
I like having JBJ and Mookie back to back at 9-1 and have no problem keeping him where he is. 
 
Unless the RS want to move him to one of the top 3 spots to try and get an extra PA each game, then I would let him stay at 9. Moving him to 7 seems too cautious. 
 
I have no doubt he would be great in LF,  but I just think with his excellent breaks and routes to the ball and his arm strength he will be slotted in CF or RF. Having Rusney, JBJ and Betts rotate around each outfield position for the rest of this season to see how each handles the wall is not a bad idea. 
I like having JBJ in right because of his arm.  Betts is best suited to center and Castillo has, so far, seemed fine playing the wall. That seems to be our best defensive alignment, especially at Fenway.

There may be parks on the road with bigger left fields (such as in Yankee Stadium) where I would flip JBJ and Castillo.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,494
Not here
Pumpsie said:
I like having JBJ in right because of his arm.  Betts is best suited to center and Castillo has, so far, seemed fine playing the wall. That seems to be our best defensive alignment, especially at Fenway.

There may be parks on the road with bigger left fields (such as in Yankee Stadium) where I would flip JBJ and Castillo.
I went the guy with the best range in the spot where more balls go.

JBJ may not get to a ton more balls than Betts or Castillo, but every single one of those bald is going for at least two bases, often three.

And it's not like Castillo has a bad arm. He's not going to be saving as many bases as JBJ would, but it's going to be fewer than the number of bases JBJ saves in CF.
 

Pumpsie

The Kilimanjaro of bullshit
SoSH Member
Rasputin said:
I went the guy with the best range in the spot where more balls go.

JBJ may not get to a ton more balls than Betts or Castillo, but every single one of those bald is going for at least two bases, often three.

And it's not like Castillo has a bad arm. He's not going to be saving as many bases as JBJ would, but it's going to be fewer than the number of bases JBJ saves in CF.
Don't agree.  An outfield of Betts in center and JBJ in right is better than the reverse when you factor arm strength into the picture.  JBJ can be another Dwight Evans and then some in right...a very important position at Fenway.  When you put Betts in right you lose more there than you gain with JBJ in center.  Neither Betts nor JBJ should play left at Fenway.  If Castillo can play the wall, and so far it looks like he has no problem with it, that's his spot.
 

pantsparty

Member
SoSH Member
May 2, 2011
563
I would put JBJ in center - he's the best OF. He doesn't have the speed of Castillo or Betts, but he ends up covering more ground because he reads balls better. I don't think it's a coincidence that on some difficult plays near walls JBJ has fielded balls cleanly and Mookie has nearly killed himself. JBJ gets earlier jumps and runs more efficient routes allowing him to not run head-first into things. He also has a great arm.

Castillo would go in RF. He has a significantly stronger arm than Mookie.

Mookie goes in LF. His speed is wasted when he plays in Fenway but is still useful on the road, and I think it's likely he hits enough to be useful as a corner OF.
 

rajendra82

elimination day disfunction
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
4,935
Atlanta, GA
In yesterday's game if JBJ was in center, Miley may have thrown a CG shutout.  One of those hits was a bloop that with a right read off the bat could have been caught, while the other was a gapper that Mookie almost got to but did not have a great control of his body when he was near the ball.  If we had a player that gets great reads off the bat and runs better routes, both of these hits could have been taken away.  We do have such a player, so let's put him in center field.
 

Pumpsie

The Kilimanjaro of bullshit
SoSH Member
If you're going to put Mookie in left, you lose all his defensive value, which is considerable and that's just not worth it. At that point, your best bet would be to trade him to someone else who could use him at second or center, and that would be a shame because he's going to be an All-Star for another team.  Or, you can trade Pedey for pitching and put Mookie at second.  But the last place he should be playing is left field at Fenway.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,494
Not here
Pumpsie said:
Don't agree.  An outfield of Betts in center and JBJ in right is better than the reverse when you factor arm strength into the picture.  JBJ can be another Dwight Evans and then some in right...a very important position at Fenway.  When you put Betts in right you lose more there than you gain with JBJ in center.  Neither Betts nor JBJ should play left at Fenway.  If Castillo can play the wall, and so far it looks like he has no problem with it, that's his spot.
That's inconsistent. If you think the arm matters so much, why do you want the weakest arm in center?

Bradley in center because he has the most range. Castillo in right because he has a better arm than Betts.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,494
Not here
Pumpsie said:
If you're going to put Mookie in left, you lose all his defensive value, which is considerable and that's just not worth it. At that point, your best bet would be to trade him to someone else who could use him at second or center, and that would be a shame because he's going to be an All-Star for another team.  Or, you can trade Pedey for pitching and put Mookie at second.  But the last place he should be playing is left field at Fenway.
Not this shit again.

No matter which one you put in left, you lose some defensive value.

The point is not to maximize value, the point is to win the World Series as many times as you can before you die.

They're not trading Dustin Pedroia for anything.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
Pumpsie said:
Don't agree.  An outfield of Betts in center and JBJ in right is better than the reverse when you factor arm strength into the picture.  JBJ can be another Dwight Evans and then some in right...a very important position at Fenway.  When you put Betts in right you lose more there than you gain with JBJ in center.  Neither Betts nor JBJ should play left at Fenway.  If Castillo can play the wall, and so far it looks like he has no problem with it, that's his spot.
Do you have room on your bandwagon? Because this is my stance as well.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,494
Not here
Papelbon's Poutine said:
Do you have room on your bandwagon? Because this is my stance as well.
Someone should explain why it would be a terrible thing for Betts or Bradley to play left, but it's totally cool for Castillo.

No matter which of them it is, putting one in left is going to waste some of their range.

If the arm is so important you'd want Betts to get a lot more chances in center, why isn't it important enough to put Castillo in center?

This position is inconsistent. It's like y'all just decided that Castillo is the worst of them and put him in left just because.

More balls go to center and if they're not caught, they're doubles and triples.

The difference between Bradley's arm and Castillo's in right is mostly coming from extra bases between second and third. There's some outs to be had there, but not as many as Bradley's extra range in center.
 

Idabomb333

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 5, 2007
202
Pumpsie said:
Don't agree.  An outfield of Betts in center and JBJ in right is better than the reverse when you factor arm strength into the picture.  JBJ can be another Dwight Evans and then some in right...a very important position at Fenway.  When you put Betts in right you lose more there than you gain with JBJ in center.  Neither Betts nor JBJ should play left at Fenway.  If Castillo can play the wall, and so far it looks like he has no problem with it, that's his spot.
Please elaborate on this because it doesn't seem to me that a reasonable person can believe this, based on the evidence others have presented in this thread and elsewhere. Yet several people seem to believe it here, and I want to believe you're being reasonable.

It seems to me that in order for JBJ's defensive advantage in center to be less than his advantage in right, either you have to believe that he will get more net defensive chances in right, or that a defensive chance in right is more valuable than a defensive chance in center (because of adding in increased importance of throws from right?). Possibly a combination could work. Neither of those explanations sounds remotely reasonable to me.

We can all agree that there are more chances in center by a fairly wide margin, right? The margin may be reduced in Fenway, but it's still there, and half the games aren't in Fenway. I suppose you could argue that something about their defense means that JBJ would have more net defensive chances over Mookie in right than one would expect given the difference in center, but even then, a JBJ in right whose quality is amplified by Fenway sees fewer net chances than he would in center.

Does anyone have numbers on how often a ball hit to CF vs. RF would require a strong throw to stop a runner? Or just what percentage of the RF's plays would include a benefit from a strong arm? Stopping a runner on 3rd from scoring has to come up more in CF than RF. Advancing to 3rd might happen a higher percentage of the time on the RF vs. the CF, but I bet it's a comparable # of times if not a greater # for the CF.

I get that JBJ's arm is awesome and that that is useful in right field, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone outside of SoSH argue that it's more important for the RF to have a good arm than for the CF to have one. The point is usually just that in center, there are so many more chances that range's importance dwarfs the arm's importance. A guy with great range should play CF, despite a weak arm, because the range is what matters most. A guy without the range for CF (or with 2nd best range on a team) gets picked for right vs. left based on his arm because those positions (in most parks) get around the same number of chances, and the arm comes into play more in RF.

Having seen JBJ's throws from center, I can't fathom an argument that his arm is underutilized there. His greater range and the extra chances in center should in fact magnify the importance of his arm.

Similarly, for Fenway's right fielder, I would again think that having more chances and more ground to cover in RF should mean that once you've picked your CF, you pick the hypothetical guy with the noticeably better range instead of the hypothetical guy with the noticeably better arm. In that case I think it's open for discussion, because even Fenway might not have a huge difference in the number of chances and you have to factor in the idea that guys will probably stick with their positions in other parks too.

We can all agree that it's great to have a Sox RF who can both range and throw. I just don't see where the idea could come from that that is better than having a CF who can both range and throw.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
Well, I don't think I've seen anyone say it would be a terrible thing for any configuration. We basically have three CFs. So it's all good no matter what at the end of the day. Yes, someone will waste some range and arm in LF at home, but it's not an equal amount for all. From the sample size we have, it seems JBJ has the most, Betts has the second most and Castillo is in the rear. Arm strength seems to go JBJ, Castillo then Betts. Given the size of RF in Fenway and the overall desire to have a strong arm in RF anywhere, I'd like to see JBJ there. It's obviously stupid to out JBJ in left, so let's not even talk about that.

Yes, CF in Fenway is tough too, but Betts has shown to be an above average CFer already and while his arm isn't super strong it's also not a Damon/Ellsbury noodle. Castillo I haven't seen enough of to make a call on for CF compared to JBJ or Betts - we just don't have the same sample size.

I also was on the team that effing around with X last year was actually an issue, so I'm hesitant to keep moving Betts around. Not because I don't think he could handle it, but more that I think why bother?

End of the day, I think any of them can play all three. I just want to let Betts settle in, watch JBJ unleash his howitzer from deep in the RF corner and all and all watch fly balls get sucked up at crazy rates. It's just a personal preference and il not going to lose any sleep if it doesn't shake out my way. I don't think anyone else will either.
 

Drek717

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
2,542
Pumpsie said:
If you're going to put Mookie in left, you lose all his defensive value, which is considerable and that's just not worth it. At that point, your best bet would be to trade him to someone else who could use him at second or center, and that would be a shame because he's going to be an All-Star for another team.  Or, you can trade Pedey for pitching and put Mookie at second.  But the last place he should be playing is left field at Fenway.
What about the wasted value of Castillo playing LF?  Right now it's too early to use rate stats like UZR but Castillo has made 43 "out of zone" plays (per fangraphs) in 348 RF innings with 5 "in zone" plays not made.  So 348 innings, +38 plays, an average of .109 positive plays per inning, basically one a game.
 
Jackie Bradley meanwhile has 159 innings in RF, has missed 2 in zone plays and made 13 out of zone, so +11, or .0691 per inning.  Betts is at 77 innings in RF, missed one in-zone and made 5 out of zone, +6, .077 positive plays per inning.
 
Extending that to CF, Castillo has 10 OOZ, missed 3 in zone, and has played 130 total innings for a .0538 rate.  Bradley is 103/23 out/in over 1213 innings, a .0659 rate, while Betts is 107/18 over 1266 innings, a 0.0703 rate.
 
Obviously this isn't a hard and fast analysis of who is the best defender, but there is one clear outlier in the early zone scoring sample and that is Castillo in RF.  He's made a few bonehead plays to be sure but he's got a strong arm of his own and has CF range himself.  We're discounting how good he is defensively because both Betts and Bradley cover (slightly) more ground and Bradley has a slightly stronger, definitively more accurate arm.
 
As for the concept of "lost value" in having Mookie play LF, Alex Gordon has consistently achieved dWAR values of 1.9, 1.3, and 2.6 from LF (on pace for another good one this year) while Lorenzo Cain has been putting up mid-2's dWAR alongside him.  Bradley in 2014 had a dWAR of 2.0.  Cain's UZR numbers parallel Bradley's quite well with similar >20 UZR/150 highs in partial seasons from 2012 and 2013 but with over 3200 innings played (a sample where UZR/150 gets to be more worthwhile) he's averaged out to a 15.3 UZR/150.  Bradley's current average over his 1213 innings in center is 13.5 (drug down by two very small samples in 2013 and 2015).
 
So Gordon and Cain prove that two elite defenders in left and right can each still put up very large fielding values, even within the same year, without cannibalizing the other.  There would be some missed opportunity on Betts' part because of Fenway's dimensions in particular, but he's the most naturally athletic and instinctive fielder in the bunch and a damn bright kid.  He could develop an entirely unique style to playing the close confines of Fenway's LF that changes our perception on the position far into the future.  For example, if the front office commits to that alignment and modifies the scoreboard with some padding Betts could play very shallow and rely on his speed going back to track down balls that land in the warning track, while stealing a ton of shallow hits that just make it over the infield.  The only gap that would really open would be in deep left center where Bradley and Betts would likely see defensive overlap anyhow.
 
There's more than one way to assemble this OF, but I'd argue the last two things we should do when discussing it is: 1. discount Castillo's own defensive value and 2. let the reduced value of Fenway's LF weigh so heavily that it dictates a trade to resolve a non-problem in having three young, talented athletes with center fielder range.  The Red Sox haven't had good production from all three OF positions since the end of 2013 and that required a five man assembly with three of the five rotating in LF and two of those having massive outlier seasons.
 

Idabomb333

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 5, 2007
202
Papelbon's Poutine said:
End of the day, I think any of them can play all three. I just want to let Betts settle in, watch JBJ unleash his howitzer from deep in the RF corner and all and all watch fly balls get sucked up at crazy rates. It's just a personal preference and il not going to lose any sleep if it doesn't shake out my way. I don't think anyone else will either.
I don't have any real problem with anything in this post, but that wasn't the part of the idea of Betts in center to which I objected. I can see a reasonable argument that moving Betts around might be more harmful (psychologically or something) than moving JBJ around. I don't agree with that, but it's a position I can understand. I cannot understand the belief I bolded in my last post, arguing that the defensive downgrade from Bradley to Betts is bigger in RF than in CF. You seemed to agree with that part. Can you explain why? Or am I wrong that you agree with that part of Pumpsie's post?
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
Idabomb333 said:
I don't have any real problem with anything in this post, but that wasn't the part of the idea of Betts in center to which I objected. I can see a reasonable argument that moving Betts around might be more harmful (psychologically or something) than moving JBJ around. I don't agree with that, but it's a position I can understand. I cannot understand the belief I bolded in my last post, arguing that the defensive downgrade from Bradley to Betts is bigger in RF than in CF. You seemed to agree with that part. Can you explain why? Or am I wrong that you agree with that part of Pumpsie's post?
 
Not to speak for Pumpsie, but the basic argument goes like this: Bradley is more better than Betts at throwing than he is better than Betts at chasing balls down, and that difference matters more in RF than in CF--especially in Fenway, where a RF has to chase balls down over a wider range than normal. It's a reasonable argument, though I'm still not sure I buy it. For one thing, it ignores Rusney, who has so far shown what appears to be a perfectly adequate arm for RF, suggesting that the best deployment may be Betts/JBJ/Rusney from left to right. People will cry that this wastes Mookie's range, to which the obvious answer is that with these three guys in the OF, somebody's range is going to be wasted in LF for 81 games a year; that's a given, and shouldn't determine the decision.
 
I think we can assume the following:
 
1) The CF is not Rusney, because he seems like the weakest defender of the three, by a small but perhaps decisive margin, and we've already seen that the other two guys are fine-to-fabulous in CF;
2) The LF is not JBJ, because it makes no sense to put the best arm where it's least needed.
 
There are three configurations that follow those rules:
 
Betts/JBJ/Rusney
Rusney/JBJ/Betts
Rusney/Betts/JBJ
 
Honestly, I'm not sure there's the proverbial dime's worth of difference between them.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 30, 2006
10,569
Savin Hillbilly said:
Betts/JBJ/Rusney
Rusney/JBJ/Betts
Rusney/Betts/JBJ
 
Honestly, I'm not sure there's the proverbial dime's worth of difference between them.
Betts arm is most suited for LF, but IMO there's two other significant factors.

First, Betts is the best baserunner of the three, and the best base stealer. I want him to save his legs for the basepaths, in the same way that Tampa Crawford played left so he could swipe 40 bags.

Second, I worry about Betts and repeat concussions. In Fenway at least, playing LF means he won't be pulling any more Torii Hunters into the bullpen or box seats. And it's not like he has to worry about Beltre or another linebacker playing third.
 

Pumpsie

The Kilimanjaro of bullshit
SoSH Member
Savin Hillbilly said:
 
Not to speak for Pumpsie, but the basic argument goes like this: Bradley is more better than Betts at throwing than he is better than Betts at chasing balls down, and that difference matters more in RF than in CF--especially in Fenway, where a RF has to chase balls down over a wider range than normal. It's a reasonable argument, though I'm still not sure I buy it. For one thing, it ignores Rusney, who has so far shown what appears to be a perfectly adequate arm for RF, suggesting that the best deployment may be Betts/JBJ/Rusney from left to right. People will cry that this wastes Mookie's range, to which the obvious answer is that with these three guys in the OF, somebody's range is going to be wasted in LF for 81 games a year; that's a given, and shouldn't determine the decision.
 
I think we can assume the following:
 
1) The CF is not Rusney, because he seems like the weakest defender of the three, by a small but perhaps decisive margin, and we've already seen that the other two guys are fine-to-fabulous in CF;
2) The LF is not JBJ, because it makes no sense to put the best arm where it's least needed.
 
There are three configurations that follow those rules:
 
Betts/JBJ/Rusney
Rusney/JBJ/Betts
Rusney/Betts/JBJ
 
Honestly, I'm not sure there's the proverbial dime's worth of difference between them.
This has generated some interesting discussion and SH may well be right in that it may not make much of a difference at all regarding the three scenarios he mentions.  Another factor is that Betts is 22 and has just started to play center.  He WILL improve over the coming years, especially getting that first step better. In a year or two, he may be tracking and getting to everything JBJ does.  The only thing he'll never be as good as JBJ defensively is his arm strength. 
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
59,268
San Andreas Fault
I'd like to talk hitting for a change. Bradley is the best #9 hitter in the league. The bestest. He must have finished runnerup for August AL offensive player of the month to Encarcion, and here he is today batting last with Rutledge and Hanigan in front of him. I understand that some of his hitting problems in the bigs may have been mental, and they're reluctant to move him in the order, but it's getting more and more obvious that the toe tap/curl giving way to the leg lift and plant was really the vast majority of the reason for his turnaround. Now, here's the thing: it could get "reverse mental" with him, i.e., he could feel enough is enough with the batting ninth even though he's the hottest hitter on a hot hitting team. I hope they're at least talking to him. If JBJ had had none of his hitting malaise with the big team vs. in the minors, at this point, I'd be thinking
 
Betts
Bogaerts
Bradley
Ortiz
and so on.
 
Another team with a hot hitting rookie, the Giants, put Matt Duffy into the 3 hole very soon after he looked like his early good hitting wasn't a fluke. He continued to hit well there. Injuries to Pence, et al, also influenced that move, but the Sox have had the two guys who were supposed to be middle order hitters, Hanley and Panda, either hurt or sucking bad, creating an opening for a different top - middle of the order hitter. Well, i wouldn't move Mookie. Bradley second, Bogaerts hitting third would also be fine.
 
Or, maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. 
 

Buzzkill Pauley

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 30, 2006
10,569
Al Zarilla said:
I'd like to talk hitting for a change. Bradley is the best #9 hitter in the league. The bestest. He must have finished runnerup for August AL offensive player of the month to Encarcion, and here he is today batting last with Rutledge and Hanigan in front of him. I understand that some of his hitting problems in the bigs may have been mental, and they're reluctant to move him in the order, but it's getting more and more obvious that the toe tap/curl giving way to the leg lift and plant was really the vast majority of the reason for his turnaround. Now, here's the thing: it could get "reverse mental" with him, i.e., he could feel enough is enough with the batting ninth even though he's the hottest hitter on a hot hitting team. I hope they're at least talking to him. If JBJ had had none of his hitting malaise with the big team vs. in the minors, at this point, I'd be thinking
 
Betts
Bogaerts
Bradley
Ortiz
and so on.
 
Another team with a hot hitting rookie, the Giants, put Matt Duffy into the 3 hole very soon after he looked like his early good hitting wasn't a fluke. He continued to hit well there. Injuries to Pence, et al, also influenced that move, but the Sox have had the two guys who were supposed to be middle order hitters, Hanley and Panda, either hurt or sucking bad, creating an opening for a different top - middle of the order hitter. Well, i wouldn't move Mookie. Bradley second, Bogaerts hitting third would also be fine.
 
Or, maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.
I think a big tactical consideration for leaving Bradley batting down the order is Pedroia's imminent return, when they'll need to slot him into the top of the order.

Clumping together Swihart-Bradley-Betts-Bogaerts has helped the Sox score lots runs in bunches over the last five weeks, so I'm okay with JBJ continuing as the "second leadoff" hitter so that clump can stay together. And I suspect that JBJ's still got enough going on with proving wrong Farrell and Cherington and everyone else who thought he couldn't hit MLB pitching, that he's not worried where in the lineup he's written in.

I'm sure lineup construction and balance will demand some attention in the offseason between the new baseball ops staff and the new manager. But since we don't know what's going to happen in the offseason for personnel changes, I think it's two months too soon to worry about it.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,665
Melrose, MA
Pumpsie said:
This has generated some interesting discussion and SH may well be right in that it may not make much of a difference at all regarding the three scenarios he mentions.  Another factor is that Betts is 22 and has just started to play center.  He WILL improve over the coming years, especially getting that first step better. In a year or two, he may be tracking and getting to everything JBJ does.  The only thing he'll never be as good as JBJ defensively is his arm strength. 
This is a ridiculous assertion - there is quite simply no reason whatsoever to think that he will ever have the rage of JBJ.  None.  Sure, Mookie will get better with more experience (assuming he never shifts back to 2B).  But Bradley is a generational talent in CF.  Given that, and that he will have more opportunities to bring his arm into play from CF than RF (fielding more balls = more opportunities to throw), it would be ludicrous to put JBJ in RF because his arm is better.
 
JBJ isn't just Mookie Betts with a better arm.  Even if that's all he was, I'm not convinced that RF would be the best place for him although there would be a stronger case for it.  
 

Drek717

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
2,542
Buzzkill Pauley said:
Clumping together Swihart-Bradley-Betts-Bogaerts has helped the Sox score lots runs in bunches over the last five weeks, so I'm okay with JBJ continuing as the "second leadoff" hitter so that clump can stay together. 
This cluster is, to me, something they absolutely need to preserve through the rest of the season.  As we saw with Bogaerts' double yesterday these guys are building great camaraderie batting like this and that chemistry is more likely to carry over into 2016 than any batting order realignment.
 
As for 2016, going with the speculation that no starter is really changing other than Hanley at 1B I'd like to see the following lineup:
 
Betts
Pedroia
Ortiz
Hanley
Bradley
Bogaerts
Sandoval
Castillo
Swihart
 
That only has back to back same side hitters at the top with Betts and Pedroia, after that L-R-L-R-L-R-S.  It puts Castillo and Swihart as the wrap around guys in front of Betts and if Vazuquez is playing catcher he and Castillo swap spots in the lineup.  Hanley is at #4 because assuming he's healthy I see no reason why he doesn't return to a >.800 OPS RH bat.  Bradley/Bogaerts at 5/6 is a real nice middle of the order tandem and if Sandoval gets his shit together he'll likely see many opportunities to have wall ball doubles turn into RBIs.
 

Idabomb333

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 5, 2007
202
Savin Hillbilly said:
 
Not to speak for Pumpsie, but the basic argument goes like this: Bradley is more better than Betts at throwing than he is better than Betts at chasing balls down, and that difference matters more in RF than in CF--especially in Fenway, where a RF has to chase balls down over a wider range than normal. It's a reasonable argument, though I'm still not sure I buy it. For one thing, it ignores Rusney, who has so far shown what appears to be a perfectly adequate arm for RF, suggesting that the best deployment may be Betts/JBJ/Rusney from left to right. People will cry that this wastes Mookie's range, to which the obvious answer is that with these three guys in the OF, somebody's range is going to be wasted in LF for 81 games a year; that's a given, and shouldn't determine the decision.
 
I think we can assume the following:
 
1) The CF is not Rusney, because he seems like the weakest defender of the three, by a small but perhaps decisive margin, and we've already seen that the other two guys are fine-to-fabulous in CF;
2) The LF is not JBJ, because it makes no sense to put the best arm where it's least needed.
 
There are three configurations that follow those rules:
 
Betts/JBJ/Rusney
Rusney/JBJ/Betts
Rusney/Betts/JBJ
 
Honestly, I'm not sure there's the proverbial dime's worth of difference between them.
I'm a little bit sorry to belabor the point, but here comes the belaboring. Pumpsie, did Savin get your point right? Do you believe that throws by RFs are more common and/or more important than throws by CFs? If so, what would lead to that conclusion? Is there evidence of that, or is it just that we know throws from the RF are important?

Again, I know it is common for CFs to have worse arms than RFs. I just don't think the arm's importance in right has ever been the reason for that. I also totally understand the argument that Fenway's RF is particularly big and difficult to play. I just don't buy that it could ever be more important than CF. I think the reason a CF has a weaker arm than the RF is always that teams know the range of the CF makes up for a weaker arm, and then the RF has a good arm because that is important in RF too relative to LF. In other words, I think (without ever having discussed this with a baseball manager or other expert) that if you had 2 guys with equal range and one had a better arm, every good manager would put the better arm in center. Having a good arm in center is important very often because the CF fields more balls and thus has more chances to make important throws.

Am I way off? Can anyone prove me wrong? This seems clear and intuitive to me, and the argument for the CF having the better arm, all else being equal, would only be magnified if the guy with the better arm also has better range. Does anyone know of a case in history or current play where the main difference between two OFs was the arm, and the better arm played RF? I would be very surprised by that. I would be even more surprised to hear of a case of a guy who was better in range and arm being placed in RF.

All that said, I agree with everyone saying it isn't worth losing any sleep because any config will be good. I'm mostly arguing the principle for the sake of debate. Betts is fun to watch in CF too. I just think JBJ is much more so. I want him to get every defensive chance he can get. I want him to set all kinds of OF assist and DP records.
 

Quintanariffic

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2002
5,141
The City of Studios
Sort of interesting that JBJ's run has coincided with Farrell's absence. It's pretty clear that Farrell wasn't a fan, based on some hints of aka an not taking coaching last year and the complete lack of usage of JBJ this year, even when it was obvious the Sox were out of contention. Now I think the chances of Farrell being back are <5% but I wonder how much JBJ's comfort at the plate is attributable to the guy in the dugout.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
Al Zarilla said:
 He must have finished runnerup for August AL offensive player of the month to Encarcion, 
I think there's a big difference between what Encarnacion is doing in the thick of a pennant race and what Bradley is doing hitting 9th for a sad-sack two year loser. To me this is the big asterisk that colors how we should view everything good happening right now. I look forward to removing the asterisk, but for now it's there. Anyway, no Bostonian will win anything-of-the-month in September either.
 

Idabomb333

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 5, 2007
202
Did a bit of digging on bbref. The top few career leaders in DPs as an OF and in assists as an OF are CFs. Tris speaker appears often in career and single season numbers for OF throws. Can any history buffs relate whether Speaker had a strong arm? I think I've heard of him more for speed and steals.

The top few single season assist records were RFs, but the single season DP leaders were CFs.

Maybe that doesn't mean anything, but it could mean there's no reason to worry about wasting JBJ'S arm in center.
 

StupendousMan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
1,925
It's hard to say how strong Speaker's arm was, but one of the reasons he had so many outfield assists was that he played shallow.  REALLY shallow.  From Don Jenson's article about Tris Speaker at http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/6d9f34bd
 
 
In the outfield Speaker played so shallow that he was almost a fifth infielder. “At the crack of the bat he'd be off with his back to the infield,” said teammate Joe Wood, “and then he'd turn and glance over his shoulder at the last minute and catch the ball so easy it looked like there was nothing to it, nothing at all.” Twice in one month, April 1918, Speaker executed unassisted double plays at second base, catching low line drives on the run and then beating the baserunner to the bag. At least once in his career Speaker was the pivot man in a routine double play. As late as 1923, after the advent of the lively ball forced Speaker to play deeper, he still had 26 assists.
 
Playing much of his career in the dead-ball era helped, of course.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
Idabomb333 said:
I'm a little bit sorry to belabor the point, but here comes the belaboring. Pumpsie, did Savin get your point right? Do you believe that throws by RFs are more common and/or more important than throws by CFs? If so, what would lead to that conclusion? Is there evidence of that, or is it just that we know throws from the RF are important?
 
I don't know that we need "evidence" for it; it's simple geometry. Take a look at a baseball diamond; think about where the bases are. Note that the least important base is the closest to RF and the most important (other than home) is the furthest. Ergo, a strong arm is most useful for a RF. It's not rocket science.
 
 
Idabomb333 said:
Did a bit of digging on bbref. The top few career leaders in DPs as an OF and in assists as an OF are CFs. Tris speaker appears often in career and single season numbers for OF throws. Can any history buffs relate whether Speaker had a strong arm? I think I've heard of him more for speed and steals.

The top few single season assist records were RFs, but the single season DP leaders were CFs.

Maybe that doesn't mean anything, but it could mean there's no reason to worry about wasting JBJ'S arm in center.
 
I agree that there's no reason to worry about "wasting" JBJ's arm in center--there's plenty of value in a strong arm there--but using assists to make your point is a problem, because that's a deceiving stat: as an outfielder develops a reputation for a good arm, people run on him less often, reducing assist opportunities. There's a slippery-denominator issue there.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,665
Melrose, MA
Savin Hillbilly said:
 
I don't know that we need "evidence" for it; it's simple geometry. Take a look at a baseball diamond; think about where the bases are. Note that the least important base is the closest to RF and the most important (other than home) is the furthest. Ergo, a strong arm is most useful for a RF. It's not rocket science.
It may not be rocket science, but you are still oversimplifying.  
 

kieckeredinthehead

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2006
8,635
This outfield presents the first opportunity to deploy a true outfield shift. Say you have a runner on first with one out and a batter with Bogaert's profile is at bat. You shift JBJ to right so that if/when Xander shoots one the other way, you take advantage of Bradley's arm to either hold the runner at second with less than two outs or throw him out at third. Now say there's a man on third with less than two outs and a dead pull righty hitter at bat. You shift Mookie to right to hide his arm. There's a ton of situational shifts that could highlight the strengths of the BBC. It would be great to have a front office and manager forward thinking enough to try it.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
Pumpsie said:
Don't agree.  An outfield of Betts in center and JBJ in right is better than the reverse when you factor arm strength into the picture.  JBJ can be another Dwight Evans and then some in right...a very important position at Fenway.  When you put Betts in right you lose more there than you gain with , bJBJ in center.  Neither Betts nor JBJ should play left at Fenway.  If Castillo can play the wall, and so far it looks like he has no problem with it, that's his spot.
 
I think you're underestimating Castillo's defense.  Castillo has more range and a stronger, more accurate arm than Betts.  If the outfield is Betts, Bradley, and Castillo, Betts is the worst of the 3 and it really isn't even close.   Of course, this is also equivalent to ranking three Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue cover models on their looks, but hey, someone is the least good looking.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 30, 2006
10,569
Savin Hillbilly said:
I agree that there's no reason to worry about "wasting" JBJ's arm in center--there's plenty of value in a strong arm there--but using assists to make your point is a problem, because that's a deceiving stat: as an outfielder develops a reputation for a good arm, people run on him less often, reducing assist opportunities. There's a slippery-denominator issue there.
One of my favorite all-time great throw memories was last season when Bradley gunned down Ellsbury tagging for third to end the inning, before Beltran had reached home plate.

I could live with more of those. And with more players cut down trying to score from second on a single up the middle.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
21,671
Rogers Park
Savin Hillbilly said:
 
I don't know that we need "evidence" for it; it's simple geometry. Take a look at a baseball diamond; think about where the bases are. Note that the least important base is the closest to RF and the most important (other than home) is the furthest. Ergo, a strong arm is most useful for a RF. It's not rocket science.
 
...now multiply that putative value by the fact that the right fielder gets 73% as many chances, on average, as the center fielder. 
 
...and that the value of a throwing arm is often measured not in assists, but in extra bases not attempted. Rewatch the ninth inning of last night's game. Hernandez stayed at first on a ball on which he could've had second standing, after the ball took an unexpected bounce, basically because Bradley's arm terrified him. 
 
If you can get that effect on more plays, you should take it. 
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I think Savin's point about RF being farthest form 3B is the major reason why the conventional wisdom is to put your strongest arm in RF, but I think this overlooks the fact that CF has farther throws to home than RF.  Straightaway CF is almost always the longest distance to home and can end up being the longest distance to any base.  JBJ's other-worldly arm means that he greatly expands the range from which he can make assists -- I think it is a large measure of why he gets so many is that runners and #B coaches just assume that he is out of range to make a play on a throw.
 
A couple people have noted the fact that JBJ's batting improvement has coincided (probably correlation not causation) with Farrell's leave of absence.  But I wonder what people think of the likelihood that Farrell is manager next year?
 

geoduck no quahog

not particularly consistent
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 8, 2002
13,024
Seattle, WA
Also need to assess positioning of a left fielder in Fenway (half the games). When was the last time the Red Sox had a speed demon in LF? What other teams have LF speedsters who have played in Fenway? Seems to me a guy with good speed in Boston's LF can position himself to great advantage depending on the hitter and pitcher and count. It just hasn't been don e much...Manny played incredibly shallow, but wasn't 1/4 of the fielder that Betts is.
 
The only argument against speed in Fenway's LF is that balls off the wall defeat it. Is that countered by a fast fielder being able to seal the gap between the infield and the outfield? Plus, a combination of Betts-Bradley L-C creates a lot of redundant coverage for balls hit off the wall (right side) - meaning some hits can be played with more risk - knowing there's going to be substantial backup.
 
And of course 81 games are played in other ball yards. 
 
We absolutely (unfortunately) know what a shitty arm does for you in CF. I don't understand the logic that says a weaker arm is better than a stronger one (all else being equal).
 
I'd like to see how, with modern positioning, a ++LF could take extreme advantage of the quirks in Fenway. I can't recall ever having one there.