I’m just saying Danny would’ve considered a first for White an overpay, and not pulled the trigger. Nothing more than that. He’s 80% of the reason we are where we are.
Brad Stevens: President of Basketball Ops
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
To me, even more likely that he is OK with a first for White but not also the 2028 swap with only top-1 protection.
Danny Ainge made zero meaningful in-season trades since he acquired Isaiah Thomas in 2015 until the Fournier move in 2021. Obviously, we have no idea what was on the table, but the Celtics were never lacking for trade pieces in that time period as they went into each offseason with their own picks and the extra Memphis and Sacramento picks. That also resulted in a roaster crunch, having to stash players instead of bringing them to Boston, and not having the roster space for developmental projects like Max Strus. They also dropped in position to defer a pick so they could clear a cap hold for Walker.
Interestingly Stevens has taken almost the opposite approach, as Nesmith is the ninth man and roster spots 10-15 are essentially replacement level or worse.
I was watching highlights of the 2018 Cavs-Celtics game 7, and even though Rozier and Baynes were starters, for a long stretch in the 4th quarter the Celtics played Horford, Tatum, Brown, and Smart together (with Morris). It’s amazing that it took us four years to fully unleash that combination again. Ainge gets full credit for those four players (even if Stevens had to get Al back) but it’s amazing that the Celtics never were able to put them in a position to succeed at the highest level until now.
I have seen the assertion that other GMs didn’t like to deal with DA because he “always wanted to win the deal” many times. It is always on message boards and never from real sources. I did see an article that addressed the question where they asked anonymous front office personnel their opinion and the consensus was that dealing with DA and the Celtics front office was a pleasure because they were direct and did not attempt to trick people. They would tell you what they were interested in, listen to your side, say yes or no, and not dick around. DA did overvalue his own assets, undervalue others, and if he seemed too happy with the deal you should re-evaluate, but no one didn’t like dealing with him.
You know, I originally wrote “Not like Pritchard” as my last sentence and erased it. I suspect that the guy who always tries to “win” the deal is Kevin Pritchard.
Yup. And Pritchard is a good example of how that approach can really backfire.
I mean, clearly something was going on with Danny and other GMs those last 4 or 5 years, although I'm not sure whose side the problem was on. The lack of deadline activity was pretty noticeable, particularly for a team that was in contention the whole time.
This is as good a place as any to put it: win or lose, I feel way more connection to this Celtics team than to the KG teams. There really is something special about an entire rotation that's almost all homegrown, and even Horford joined the team before Tatum was drafted.
I guess this is how Warriors' fans feel, because they're the closest thing in the league to that in a lot of ways.
It's really special, I hope it goes on a lot of years, and it's extremely not normal as NBA roster construction goes.
I guess this is how Warriors' fans feel, because they're the closest thing in the league to that in a lot of ways.
It's really special, I hope it goes on a lot of years, and it's extremely not normal as NBA roster construction goes.
I know the feeling. There's no one on this current team quite like Pierce (a future HOF'er drafted by the team a decade earlier), but it's fun to note that Smart has been with the Celtics nearly as long (8 years) as Pierce had been when he won his first title (10 years). It seems much less time than that.
Those Pitino-O’Brien years were like dog years though, especially with Pierce getting stabbed and all that other shittiness.
Yea, there’s definitely more of an emotional connection and energy with this team for me. The ‘08 team was awesome for other reasons. It was more like a sigh of relief that we didn’t squander Pierce’s entire career. It looked for a while as if he would have the horrible distinction of being the only generational star in the org to never win a ring. That squad was the old vets getting together to sacrifice their individual achievements for team success. It was beautiful in its own way, but Ray and KG were hired guns.
This team - we got to sit back and watch them grow up together as a core. We saw them come in with the weight of how high they were each drafted, we heard a lot of “Celtics got the X best player in an X-1 draft.” We saw them enjoy immediate success, but ultimately fall short, whether to the Lebron buzz saw or to Giannis, or Pat fucking Reilly’s greasy hair. We saw them address the old, “Should they break up the team,” stuff, a coaching and front office change, Kyrie trying his best to destroy everything, and now they’re here.
Sports are cruel, and don’t care about happy endings, but I just “feel” like there’s no way they lose this series. Thunder fans may have felt similar back when they broke through, but this is different because I said it is. This would be such a great “passing of the torch” from GS to Boston, and it’s going to be brutal, but we are winning this fucking series and making the Lakers stupid bubble trophy a comical asterisk in the competition for most titles.
This team - we got to sit back and watch them grow up together as a core. We saw them come in with the weight of how high they were each drafted, we heard a lot of “Celtics got the X best player in an X-1 draft.” We saw them enjoy immediate success, but ultimately fall short, whether to the Lebron buzz saw or to Giannis, or Pat fucking Reilly’s greasy hair. We saw them address the old, “Should they break up the team,” stuff, a coaching and front office change, Kyrie trying his best to destroy everything, and now they’re here.
Sports are cruel, and don’t care about happy endings, but I just “feel” like there’s no way they lose this series. Thunder fans may have felt similar back when they broke through, but this is different because I said it is. This would be such a great “passing of the torch” from GS to Boston, and it’s going to be brutal, but we are winning this fucking series and making the Lakers stupid bubble trophy a comical asterisk in the competition for most titles.
This is absolutely true. But I will see you this and raise.
For me the same thing could be said about this team vs the 1980s teams, for slightly different reasons.
I was 9 when the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics won their first title, 14 when they won their last. I wasn't;t really a basketball fan when I was younger - though my Dad did take me in to the old Garden to see Havlicek's final game. That was a generally homegrown team (not quite as much as our current Celtics), with Bird, McHale, Ainge, Maxwell, Henderson, though there were more key outside additions: Parish, DJ, Walton, but also guys like Wedman, Sichting.
But the big difference is that that team came together fast. Bird arrives in 1979-80, McHale and Parish the following year, and it was off to the races.
Whereas the assembly of this team began in 2013 with the Pierce/KG deal. But in terms of players it began in 2014 with the drafting of Marcus Smart, followed by a 5 year stretch of Brown (2016), Tatum (2017), Rob (2018), Grant (2019), Pritichard (2020). Six of our top 8 in these playoffs. Add in the Horford signing, departure, and reacquisition and the White deal and you have your playoff top 8. Add the Theis signing, departure, and reacquisition, and you have the top 9. Very homegrown, and built much more slowly than the 1980s version.
The other difference: as a kid in the 1980s, winning was just what the Celtics did. I saw three championships, but those were the last 3 from a 30 year period during which they won 16. I had no idea that the Celtics would lose in the finals the next year and then not come close again for the next 21 years after that - the closest approach being the 2002 Walker/Pierce Celtics losing to the Nets in the conference finals.
Then, Ainge put the Piece/Garnett/Allen Celtics together in an offseason. That team was partly homegrown (3 starters, but only one star) and was assebled lightning fast.
But anyway, winning is really hard. Instead of 16 titles in 30 years we have just 1 in the past 36. It could have been 2 or 3 with better luck, but that is not how the NBA works.
But here we are with a legitimately homegrown team with a chance at another one. This one, if we get it, will be more special than the others I've seen for me.
You're probably thinking of this article by Keith Smith
What is it really like to talk trade with Boston Celtics GM Danny Ainge? - CelticsBlog
Probably similar to what you'd get about most GMs, except for the guy that was afraid to deal with him because he was worried Ainge knew more than him.
Certainly doesn't lead one to believe the league as a whole didn't want to deal with him.
Ok that article was awesome. I loved the bit at the end about how the Hayward S&T only happened with Charlotte because Danny did them a solid sending Rozier there the year before.
Thanks for sharing that, fantastic article that I had not seen before.
As much as I took away that League Execs like and highly respect Ainge, I honestly think my biggest takeaway is that they all think Zarren is a genius. I’m glad we still have that guy!
I didn't enjoy one exec's characterization of the Celtics as the "Buffalo Bills of getting close, but not getting there". Ouch.
But, yes, a fun read otherwise. Thanks for posting.
The Ringer has a piece making this very point, about how homegrown these two teams are: https://www.theringer.com/2022/6/2/23150552/the-2022-nba-finals-is-homegrown
The Celtics and Warriors were #2 and #3, respectively, among playoff teams based on the percent of minutes that were played by homegrown players (only the Grizzlies were higher). Unsurprisingly, the Nets were last.
One of the few things that regularly frustrated me, particularly through the latter half of Ainge's reign, was seeming to hold too tightly to 1st round picks. I can see how leading a process that turned those 1sts into JT, JB, Smart, Rob, Grant and PP (6 out of the 8 man rotation on a Finals team) might cause someone to value a pick more than most.
Back to BS, I'm pleased the current regime spent its two first rounders(+) in acquiring Al and White to form the balance of the rotation.
Imagine if, at the 2020 deadline, Ainge had been willing to give up the late pick he simply gave away in the 2020 draft to get big or wing help. Finals appearance at the least, and that team matched up well against LA.
The really brilliant thing about acquiring Derrick White was that it had a cascading effect on the roster and slotted everyone into the almost perfect roles we are seeing today. It's been discussed already, but White's skill set and demeanor fit perfectly with this team. His blend of size, quickness on defense, ability to back-up Marcus legitimately, his ballhandling and now his offense rounding into form, all while knowing that it's the Jays that run this team has been fantastic. In addition, both Schroeder and Richardson considered themselves, at least at times, first options on offense, which in my view had this team out of sorts. I don't blame either of Schroeder or Richardson for this per se, but I think it really f*cked with the Celtics chemistry and ability for everyone to settle into their best roles. Once the trade was made, White slotted in as Marcus 2.0, PP starts to get regular run in the 15-20 minute range as an off the bench scorer and ball mover, Grant got more opportunity to stay on the floor without looking over his shoulder and round out his role, and even Theis picks up the minutes that were there when Al needed a rest or Rob was hurt. That one trade had a positive effect on like 6 guys (JT, JB, Derrick, PP, Grant, Theis), and 8, if you count the removal of Schroeder and Richardson as net positives.
What a great deal.
What a great deal.
He seems like the perfect fit from a chemistry standpoint as well. Quiet and unassuming and just does his job. His shooting was the only thing holding him back and he’s now been solid there. Just a really valuable piece to the puzzle.
Yeah, but will any of us be saying that when we collapse in 6 years and have to give away the second pick in the draft? I THINK NOT.
Completely agree about the rotations. Pritchard in particular seems to benefit the most from this as he gets to be a shooting guard (and rebounder LOL) instead of the primary ballhandler.
Completely agree about the rotations. Pritchard in particular seems to benefit the most from this as he gets to be a shooting guard (and rebounder LOL) instead of the primary ballhandler.
Joke all you want but I can’t watch 8th grade hoops right now without getting completely triggered.
Agree completely, and last night he kept a W within range with timely hot shooting and great defense. If he went 1-7 instead of 4-7 I saw a chance the game gets wayyy out of hand.
That said, it’s worth noting the Cs had won 7 straight going into deadline: Imes message had sunk and a switch had already flipped.
D White really was a perfect fit for the roster and that trade is looking more and more like a steal….
However, I do think Josh Richardson catches a lot of unfair strays when discussing this trade and the improvement after it. He wasn’t a quick decision maker for sure but I think he still would have been a fit for this roster. The guy that clearly needed to go (addition by subtraction) was Schroeder. He’s the one that dominated the ball and pounded the air out of it incessantly. He also legitimately seemed to think he was Option 1C and not option 3 or 4 like he was
However, I do think Josh Richardson catches a lot of unfair strays when discussing this trade and the improvement after it. He wasn’t a quick decision maker for sure but I think he still would have been a fit for this roster. The guy that clearly needed to go (addition by subtraction) was Schroeder. He’s the one that dominated the ball and pounded the air out of it incessantly. He also legitimately seemed to think he was Option 1C and not option 3 or 4 like he was
I would love if Brad could get JRich back for next year as a deeper bench piece but the problem with JRich - and I was surprised about this given his reputation - was that by my eyes, he wasn't that effective in defense. He did give effort and did get a few steals but seemed like he was either being blown by guys who were quicker than him or overpowered by guys who were bigger than him.
White's ability to chase smaller guys across the court is really huge for the Cs as they didn't really have anyone like that except perhaps Romeo, and he was not available a lot.
I think their respective skill at defense -- in the abstract -- was only part of it. White already knew how to play defense they way Ime wanted him to. Even if Richardson was physically capable of it, I suspect that he wasn't getting that aspect of it, and that, along with the chance to get a youngish and contract-locked White was too good to pass up. Especially if they thought White would fit as he has. (At the time they said "checked all the boxes." Seems accurate.).
I'm sure there are equivalents in other moving-defense sports where otherwise good players just dont quite fit a particular scheme.
Am I right that PBS finished 6th - 6th! Behind Pat F’n Riley? - for Exec of the Year? Um, Average Al, D.White, and Coach Udoka would like a word…
he'll have to cry himself to sleep with only his O'Brien Trophy as comfort.
Much like Belichick only winning coach of the year 3 times, despite the fact that when he retires they're probably naming the award after him.
Much like Belichick only winning coach of the year 3 times, despite the fact that when he retires they're probably naming the award after him.
I mean, Riley figured out a way to get Kyle Lowry to Miami without the use of a C130 plane so he does deserve some credit here.
I posted the following pre-season about the make-up/construction of the current Celts.
Replying to all of these to note that fat shaming is a serious societal problem that both is a significant causal factor in obesity, a major source of depression, and a contributor to suicide risk. It’s not something that should be the source of jokes.haha, holy shit
Note: I am not a mod, but I sincerely hope the powers that be on SoSH support this because we, as a community, have made significant strides over the years to address a lot of toxic cultural elements that we had previously embraced and/or perpetuated. I’d like to think that is largely a result of many/most of us needing to first learn to be better before we could become better. We should do that on this issue too.
I think it's a bit different when someone is paid millions of dollars to stay in top physical condition.
People have been on Smart and Grant for years. There is a weight clause in Smart's contract.
I’m deliberately not posting this in response to discussions of weight clauses in contracts or whether a particular player is sufficiently dedicated to conditioning. There are legitimate topics of conversation about player weight and conditioning, I don’t deny that. This is not that.
Jokes premised on laughing at someone for being fat aren’t legitimate discussion and should be unacceptable in this community, because they are objectively harmful to many many people. We need to wake up to that fact.
“Jokes premised on laughing at someone for being fat” when they’re supposed to be high performance athletes. You’re assuming people are just making fun of him just because he’s fat, but that isn’t the case.
It’s telling that no one here makes such jokes in any other context. I don’t care what we decide as a community on this. If it is going to hurt people to see jokes like this about athletes; then we can learn from it and move on. I just think it’s only fair to clarify the intention of those authors - and everyone who read the posts and didn’t say anything.
Operation Dumbo Drop. And its Kyle Lowry!haha, holy shit
The Donald Trump jokes (also deserved IMHO) and denigration are not being commented on is a Double standard no?
Absolutely convinced that he has mental issues. (end of tiptoeing V+Ns lines)
As a Fat guy myself i totally get crapping on lowry. BECAUSE he is a Millionaire athlete paid to be in shape. (actually insulting to the miami fans he isnt) and because he is kinda an Asshole.
Last edited:
Sorry, but you aren’t the arbiter here. If a mod feels differently, they have that power. Sorry to have grossly offended you.
I mean, the Heat finished in first place in the east. They turned Strus and Vincent into legit NBA players. Signed PJ Tucker away from their biggest rival and got Oladipo and Dedmon to sign for minimums. Yes, Lowry was an overpay, but while healthy he was a huge addition to their team and a much better player than Dragic.
I’m not offended. I do think we can and need to be better as a community and that doesn’t happen unless attention is called to conduct we have historically treated as acceptable and shouldn’t. I’m also not blaming you or calling out individuals (although this response indicates maybe I should have). I get it. I’ve told or laughed at plenty of jokes in my life that I shouldn’t have considered funny and have since learned should never have been something I perceived to be an acceptable source of humor, this topic included.
SoSH has dealt with similar issues in other contexts, generally successfully, after a prolonged stretch of backlash by people who refuse to accept that things they’ve always done are things they never should have done and that doesn’t make them a bad person—although a refusal to engage in appropriate retrospection once the issue is brought to your attention is more troubling.
It literally shouldn’t matter if people think this is funny either. Because there’s a ton of evidence that body image shaming and body image focused humor does tremendous harm to many many people. That doesn’t get better unless we work to be better and to stop doing the thing that is harmful. We need to do that.