Bowl Games? Bowl Games! Game thread 2016-17

Drocca

darrell foster wallace
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Jul 21, 2005
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The fact that they're allowed to play in the NCAA is totally disgusting. Football uber alles.
Agreed 100%. This was a fun thread to follow but I did not understand the USC hate/Penn State love. USC paid college players and gave them benefits. While that is outside the rules and gave them an unfair advantage, they paid the price for that and many of us on this board believe schools should be able to pay players and give them benefits. I'm not going to recount what Penn State did (and I'm talking about the institution, not one person), but it's obviously much, much worse.

I'm a Carolina fan, as most folks know. What we did was worse than what USC did. We created fake classes to keep star players eligible. But even that is just nothing compared to Penn State.
 

Marciano490

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Agreed 100%. This was a fun thread to follow but I did not understand the USC hate/Penn State love. USC paid college players and gave them benefits. While that is outside the rules and gave them an unfair advantage, they paid the price for that and many of us on this board believe schools should be able to pay players and give them benefits. I'm not going to recount what Penn State did (and I'm talking about the institution, not one person), but it's obviously much, much worse.

I'm a Carolina fan, as most folks know. What we did was worse than what USC did. We created fake classes to keep star players eligible. But even that is just nothing compared to Penn State.
You don't enjoy those over-produced Penn St. 'we overcame' videos? Those have to be the most uncomfortable things I've ever seen. I'm surprised they don't have Brent Musberger narrate them all.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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I understand why the media likes the narrative of the players overcoming the odds to restore the team to prominence, but I definitely blanched whenever last night's announcers nattered on about all the adversity Penn State had faced, as if they were talking about Boston recovering from the Patriots Day bombing or something. The school's situation was entirely self-inflicted in the most monstrous way imaginable.
 

dhappy42

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Oct 27, 2013
15,725
Michigan
I understand why the media likes the narrative of the players overcoming the odds to restore the team to prominence, but I definitely blanched whenever last night's announcers nattered on about all the adversity Penn State had faced, as if they were talking about Boston recovering from the Patriots Day bombing or something. The school's situation was entirely self-inflicted in the most monstrous way imaginable.
Yep. It was creepy. Even though I thought the NCAA penalties were over the top, punishing a lot of innocent people, mainly players and, I suppose fans, who had zero culpability, the "comeback narrative" is just another example of screwy priorities.

Don't see how one can curse the school and Paterno for ignoring the pedophile predator, but praise players for staying loyal to the school and, in many cases, the legacy of Paterno.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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Yep. It was creepy. Even though I thought the NCAA penalties were over the top, punishing a lot of innocent people, mainly players and, I suppose fans, who had zero culpability, the "comeback narrative" is just another example of screwy priorities.

Don't see how one can curse the school and Paterno for ignoring the pedophile predator, but praise players for staying loyal to the school and, in many cases, the legacy of Paterno.
The fans were no longer "not culpable" in my eyes when they gave a standing ovation to Paterno's picture on the scoreboard at homecoming. To me it was the ultimate microcosm of the entire event. Success on the field being lauded knowing that, in the background, horrible monsters were unleashed on innocents as part of the process.
 

Brand Name

make hers mark
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Wrote an ITP-like article earlier today about breaking down a few of Clemson's offensive plays, and what Alabama's personnel will need to do to stop them, based on starting position. Granted, it's on the SB Nation Alabama Crimson Tide page, so it's a touch more homer-centric than I'd write elsewhere, but hopefully the points still come across well.
 

twibnotes

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The fans were no longer "not culpable" in my eyes when they gave a standing ovation to Paterno's picture on the scoreboard at homecoming. To me it was the ultimate microcosm of the entire event. Success on the field being lauded knowing that, in the background, horrible monsters were unleashed on innocents as part of the process.
I married into a Penn State family, and I agree that it is sickening when PSU fans behave that way. But, it's ridiculous to lump all the fans together as one.

Many PSU fans do NOT applaud Paterno and very much want to move on without celebrating his legacy. My father in law who has been big a supporter of the school and its athletic department* was, no doubt, not alone when he reached out to the AD to express his displeasure about the homecoming nonsense. My in-laws were both from modest backgrounds and both were the first people in their family to attend college. That Penn St means a lot to them in spite of the horrible Sandusky incident is no surprise, and they're not alone in struggling with that conflict.

Bears mentioning that our Red Sox had their own scandal, and I think we'd all agree it never came to represent what the Red Sox are about (and nor should it).

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1095118

*30+ yr season ticket holder, sponsors an athletic scholarship, etc
 

dhappy42

Straw Man
Oct 27, 2013
15,725
Michigan
The fans were no longer "not culpable" in my eyes when they gave a standing ovation to Paterno's picture on the scoreboard at homecoming. To me it was the ultimate microcosm of the entire event. Success on the field being lauded knowing that, in the background, horrible monsters were unleashed on innocents as part of the process.
I agree.

I meant at the time the NCAA issued its penalties. Punishing the players and fans made no sense to me then. They didn't diddle boys or cover it up. But now, any fan cheering Paterno and any player who lauds the memory of JoPa deserves a kick in the nuts. Or twat if the fan is nutless.
 

Zososoxfan

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Borrowing this idea from other places, but prior to the NC, how would you re-rank the top 10 after the bowl games?

1. Bama - beat a very solid Washington team.
2. Clemson - dismantled a one-dimensional OSU.

3. Washington - Hung tough with Bama...for about 20 minutes. Still better than most.
4. FSU - Was much better than Michigan, score was deceptive

5. USC - Struggled with a PSU team that laid an egg against Michigan, but otherwise was very good.
6. Michigan - Hung tough without Peppers and Butt, but QB, OL, and RB play was very bad.
7. OSU - Whither offense? Or defense for that matter?

8. PSU - OSU should've beaten them and Michigan crushed them. Rest of resume is very good, still not sure how they hung so close to USC.
9. OU - Nice win to cap the season.

10. Wiscy - I don't care anymore.

The breaks indicate tiers. Bama and Clemson are in another class this year. Washington had a great year and FSU had a tough schedule and didn't pull out enough wins, but that team is talented. USC really came on late, but I thought they would do better against PSU. Michigan and OSU are very tight, but Michigan showed up for their bowl game, whereaas OSU didn't. I'm dinging PSU for getting smoked by Michigan and beating OSU on a fluke, but their game against USC showed them to be very good, last 2 minutes notwithstanding. OU had some bad losses this year and I'm not sure how good Auburn really is. If you wanted to put PSU and OU in the tier above or put them as high as 5, I wouldn't argue much. After #9, I think there's a drop in quality and included Wiscy, but I don't know how they would fare against teams like Oklahoma St. or Florida.
 

Rudy's Curve

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LOL at ranking Ohio State behind three three-loss teams (one of which they beat if you remember) and a two-loss team that doesn't have anywhere near the quality of wins they have. Of course, I wouldn't expect anything less. And considering you said OU had some bad losses, you probably actually believe Ohio State is a bad team.
 

Zososoxfan

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LOL at ranking Ohio State behind three three-loss teams (one of which they beat if you remember) and a two-loss team that doesn't have anywhere near the quality of wins they have. Of course, I wouldn't expect anything less. And considering you said OU had some bad losses, you probably actually believe Ohio State is a bad team.
You're right. OSU's record merits a better ranking, although I think the committee will weigh the bowl games heavily. An OSU matchup versus FSU or USC would be really interesting. I look at USC's win over Washington late in the season very favorably, and the bottom line is they beat a good PSU team. That's the same reason I give FSU a big bump for beating good competition late in the year. I think Michigan's beatdown of PSU should keep Michigan ahead of them. So, while I think it's justifiable to have OSU as high as 4, I could see them as low as 6.

1. Bama
2. Clemson
3. Washington
4. OSU
5. FSU
6. USC
7. Michigan
8. PSU
9. OU

Edit: OU's bad loss[] was to Houston, which is much worse than pretty much any other loss for a team in the top 10.
 
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Rudy's Curve

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You're right. OSU's record merits a better ranking, although I think the committee will weigh the bowl games heavily. An OSU matchup versus FSU or USC would be really interesting. I look at USC's win over Washington late in the season very favorably, and the bottom line is they beat a good PSU team. That's the same reason I give FSU a big bump for beating good competition late in the year. I think Michigan's beatdown of PSU should keep Michigan ahead of them. So, while I think it's justifiable to have OSU as high as 4, I could see them as low as 6.

1. Bama
2. Clemson
3. Washington
4. OSU
5. FSU
6. USC
7. Michigan
8. PSU
9. OU

Edit: OU's bad loss[] was to Houston, which is much worse than pretty much any other loss for a team in the top 10.
Why should OSU be behind Washington? Because Washington was slightly more competitive in their game even though it was over before halftime? They both have two losses to similar competition and the quality of wins isn't even close. And that Houston team beat Louisville by 26 who beat Florida State by 43.

There's obviously a wide gap between the top two and everyone else. Ohio State is still #3.
 

gmogmo

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There's obviously a wide gap between the top two and everyone else. Ohio State is still #3.[/QUOTE]

I'll bet any amount of money that Ohio State isn't #3 in any of the year end polls.
 

Rudy's Curve

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I'll bet any amount of money that Ohio State isn't #3 in any of the year end polls.
I'm curious as to who you think is going to pass them. The two-loss team right behind them also lost convincingly. The two-loss team that won their game handily was smoked by Ohio State at home. You could call Wisconsin a two-loss team for the purposes of this discussion since their third loss was in a game Ohio State didn't qualify for, but they also lost to Ohio State at home. Penn State would have jumped them with a win, but they didn't. Michigan lost. Florida State has three losses including by 43 to a Louisville team that turned out to be unimpressive and at home to UNC. USC is a darkhorse since two of their three losses were without Darnold and one was to Alabama, but I don't think they won convincingly enough to gain six spots on Ohio State.
 

gmogmo

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I'd assume Washington does (maybe that changes if Clemson smokes Bama), USC does (9 game winning streak and your point about Darnold), and I think FSU (won 6 of 7, with only loss a last second one to Clemson), and even Oklahoma might, but the head to head there, especially with the Buckeyes win in Norman probably nixes that. I hope the voters don't just look at the # of losses when casting their ballots, OSU is clearly not one of the 3 best teams in college football this year, I'd be surprised if even their biggest fans thought that was true with the way they've played over the last month and a half. (losing to PSU, barely beating NW and MSU, generally being outplayed by Michigan despite getting the win, and getting humiliated by Clemson)
 

Rudy's Curve

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Number of losses is certainly flawed and Ohio State avoided a potential one by not qualifying for the conference championship game but they also have three top 10 wins, two of which were on the road including one in dominating fashion. And although they had some close calls, it's not like they limped to the finish line like Michigan - they still won five of their last six with the only loss (albeit in humiliating fashion) coming to a clear top-two team. I just don't see what anyone behind them did to jump them. Penn State certainly would have jumped them with a win and I could see USC/FSU making the leap with a convincing win but none of those happened. Washington lost handily at home to USC and their three best wins are Stanford, Colorado who got murdered in their bowl game and Utah who barely sneaked by the Big Ten's ninth-place team. Their next best win after that was Wazzu who lost to the Big Ten's T-7th place team.
 
Bama and Clemson are in another class this year.
There's obviously a wide gap between the top two and everyone else.
Do you guys really believe Clemson is on the same level as Alabama? From what I saw this season, the gap between Alabama and everyone - including Clemson - is at least as large as the gap between Clemson and the third-best team. I mean, Clemson lost to Pitt and was an easy field goal miss away from losing to NC State. Alabama is on a different planet to everyone else.
 

snowmanny

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Well they did beat Troy by three scores, if you count in safeties.

But seriously, Clemson has a pretty big advantage at QB, and, um.
 

gmogmo

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Number of losses is certainly flawed and Ohio State avoided a potential one by not qualifying for the conference championship game but they also have three top 10 wins, two of which were on the road including one in dominating fashion. And although they had some close calls, it's not like they limped to the finish line like Michigan - they still won five of their last six with the only loss (albeit in humiliating fashion) coming to a clear top-two team. I just don't see what anyone behind them did to jump them. Penn State certainly would have jumped them with a win and I could see USC/FSU making the leap with a convincing win but none of those happened. Washington lost handily at home to USC and their three best wins are Stanford, Colorado who got murdered in their bowl game and Utah who barely sneaked by the Big Ten's ninth-place team. Their next best win after that was Wazzu who lost to the Big Ten's T-7th place team.
SC 3rd, Washington 4th, Sooners 5th, Buckeyes drop to 6th....not a big surprise
 

Zososoxfan

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Do you guys really believe Clemson is on the same level as Alabama? From what I saw this season, the gap between Alabama and everyone - including Clemson - is at least as large as the gap between Clemson and the third-best team. I mean, Clemson lost to Pitt and was an easy field goal miss away from losing to NC State. Alabama is on a different planet to everyone else.
 

Rudy's Curve

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Corrected
What did Washington do to stay at #4? Keep the score closer when their game was also over by halftime? Have Stanford be their signature win? And speaking of curb stomped, that's what OSU did to OU in Norman.
 

Zososoxfan

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SC 3rd, Washington 4th, Sooners 5th, Buckeyes drop to 6th....not a big surprise
What did Washington do to stay at #4? Keep the score closer when their game was also over by halftime? Have Stanford be their signature win? And speaking of curb stomped, that's what OSU did to OU in Norman.
I think gmogmo was just posting the AP rankings. Top 10 below:

1. Clemson
2. Bama
3. USC
4. Washington
5. OU
6. OSU
7. PSU
8. FSU
9. Wisco
10. Michigan

My final rankings would go:

1. Clemson - Yay.
2. Bama - Still a goddamn juggernaut.
3. OSU - Beat 3 of top 10 and PSU was flukey.
4. Washington - above FSU and USC for consistency. Nice wins vs. Stanford, Colorado, and Utah.
5. USC - Won last 9 in a row, lucky to beat PSU though. Losses to Stanford and Utah not terrible.
6. FSU - Losses to UNC and Louisville don't look good. If Michigan wins the Orange Bowl, their season would look pretty different IMO.
7. Michigan - Didn't get it done in the end, but beat PSU and Wiscy handily and lost all 3 games by small margins.
8. OU - Substantially worse performance than Michigan against OSU. Loss vs. Houston bad.
9. PSU - Other than flukey win over OSU, what's their best result? Big win over Iowa at home? 7 point win in conference championship game over Wiscy? Flukey Rose Bowl loss to USC?
10. Wisco - Nice lil 11-3 season from the Badgers.
 

SoxJox

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Most seem to suffer from over-generalization when comparing one team vs common opponents and other similar one-offs during these types of debates. The problem is that teams change dynamically over the course of a season - some for the better through experience and confidence gained, and some for the worse from injuries. Plus, they are dynamic, interactive, living, breathing organizations - not automatons that perform at the same collective level from week to week.

An example is Penn State. Sure, Zosoxfan and others may consider the tOSU game a flukey win, and maybe it was by some measures, but the team fielded by Penn State for that game was just in the beginning stages of recovering from a string of devastating injuries. As I pointed out elsewhere, against UM Penn State's defense was starting several freshmen who otherwise would have redshirted, and many at the 4th level on the depth chart. They were a much different team when they returned to full health as the season progressed. Some could just as easily have argued that had UM and Penn State played at the end of the season, the game might have looked very different - maybe not a reversal of outcome, but highly unlikely the blowout it actually was. The other difference for Penn State as the season progressed was OC Moorhead's use of QB McSorley after the Minnesota game. As it became clear teams were going to put 8 in the box to stop Barkley, McSorley became much more of a complete dual-threat, increasing his run attempts to great effect.

So to me these arguments really aren't that simple.
 

Zososoxfan

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Most seem to suffer from over-generalization when comparing one team vs common opponents and other similar one-offs during these types of debates. The problem is that teams change dynamically over the course of a season - some for the better through experience and confidence gained, and some for the worse from injuries. Plus, they are dynamic, interactive, living, breathing organizations - not automatons that perform at the same collective level from week to week.

An example is Penn State. Sure, Zosoxfan and others may consider the tOSU game a flukey win, and maybe it was by some measures, but the team fielded by Penn State for that game was just in the beginning stages of recovering from a string of devastating injuries. As I pointed out elsewhere, against UM Penn State's defense was starting several freshmen who otherwise would have redshirted, and many at the 4th level on the depth chart. They were a much different team when they returned to full health as the season progressed. Some could just as easily have argued that had UM and Penn State played at the end of the season, the game might have looked very different - maybe not a reversal of outcome, but highly unlikely the blowout it actually was. The other difference for Penn State as the season progressed was OC Moorhead's use of QB McSorley after the Minnesota game. As it became clear teams were going to put 8 in the box to stop Barkley, McSorley became much more of a complete dual-threat, increasing his run attempts to great effect.

So to me these arguments really aren't that simple.
That's all well and good for rankings before the games end, but after the season is over, I feel like the rankings should basically be a final report card. A comparison of resumes if you will. That's why Washington is ahead of USC for my rankings. I thought it would be interesting to perhaps have the rankings reflect how I think each team would do in 9 hypothetical games against the rest of the top 10, but then the analysis runs into the problems you identify - i.e. which snapshot of the teams do you use?