Boston’s taxing pursuit of Juan Soto is over. (Mets)

Timduhda

New Member
Feb 14, 2015
50
Not sure if this fake news or who this guy is but here is what he posted. Sorry if someone beat me to this.

https://x.com/theskippersview/status/1857471426279661676?s=61

Developing:

We are hearing, per @skippsviewdean, that Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was discussed in the three-hour meeting between Juan Soto and the Boston Red Sox last night.

Boston seems poised to be the next super team with their finances, farm system, and Rafael Devers.

Here is their current A plan.

-Sign Juan Soto
-Trade for Vladimir Guerrero Jr
-Trade for Garret Crochet
-Go after Snell or Fried
-Meet with Roki Sasaki

This might sound redundant as it is every team's A plan.

However, with six prospects in the Top 100, they feel like they have the flexibility to go for it and not sacrifice their future. Currently, they are 14th in payroll after spending most of the 2000s in the Top 5, and it has been widely reported that they want this to change.

Triston Casa and Wilyer Abreu are also the two most likely MLB candidates to get moved this offseason.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,855
Is that true? I do know he is a big Celtics fan, particularly Jayson, Tatum, and Al Horford.

Either way, having Pedro Martinez and David Ortiz pitch you about the benefits of playing in Boston and letting Soto know how much the Dominican superstars were loved can’t hurt.
Yes, it is. There was a also a quote posted in one of the threads about him growing up a Red Sox fan. "In a post by Tyler Milliken on X, Soto’s narrative from a 2021 exchange was revealed where he was spotted saying, “Since I was a child, my favorite MLB team was always Boston because of the Dominicans who played with them: Manny Ramírez, David Ortiz, and Pedro Martínez.” https://www.essentiallysports.com/mlb-baseball-news-red-sox-links-deepen-after-juan-sotos-old-video-of-him-revealing-his-childhood-boston-fandom-resurfaces/

Do I think it will matter if the Red Sox offer 15/$500 and the Mets offer 15/$700 - not one bit. MIGHT it get them the chance to match Cohen's best offer if they want to - possibly. But that's really the best one can hope for from it.

What do I think the chances are of Soto ending up in Boston? Personally I'm still putting it at like 1/3 of a percent (as in 49.5% chance it's NYY, 49.5% chance it's NYM, 1% chance split among Boston, Toronto and whomever else), but this idea of him growing up a Red Sox fan is true, at least assuming one believes Soto's own words about it.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
9,006
Boston, MA
Not sure if this fake news or who this guy is but here is what he posted. Sorry if someone beat me to this.

https://x.com/theskippersview/status/1857471426279661676?s=61

Developing:

We are hearing, per @skippsviewdean, that Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was discussed in the three-hour meeting between Juan Soto and the Boston Red Sox last night.
There's no way that's real. You don't talk about tampering with other teams' players in a meeting with an agent.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
22,968
Maine
Not sure if this fake news or who this guy is but here is what he posted. Sorry if someone beat me to this.

https://x.com/theskippersview/status/1857471426279661676?s=61

Developing:

We are hearing, per @skippsviewdean, that Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was discussed in the three-hour meeting between Juan Soto and the Boston Red Sox last night.

Boston seems poised to be the next super team with their finances, farm system, and Rafael Devers.

Here is their current A plan.

-Sign Juan Soto
-Trade for Vladimir Guerrero Jr
-Trade for Garret Crochet
-Go after Snell or Fried
-Meet with Roki Sasaki

This might sound redundant as it is every team's A plan.

However, with six prospects in the Top 100, they feel like they have the flexibility to go for it and not sacrifice their future. Currently, they are 14th in payroll after spending most of the 2000s in the Top 5, and it has been widely reported that they want this to change.

Triston Casa and Wilyer Abreu are also the two most likely MLB candidates to get moved this offseason.
Who is this source and why should we believe they're doing anything other than making up fantasy scenarios for MLB The Show 2025?
 

pjheff

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2003
1,635
Whatever the WAR numbers, this is Manny redux, with different numbers and a younger player.
I know people hold the Manny signing up as a great success, but after signing him for 8/$160M, how many times did they try to move him, including placing him on waivers and allowing anyone to assume the rest of his contract?
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
The Papi/Pedro stuff presumes that there already hasn't been conversations between them and Soto about what it's like to play in Boston. Of course there have, and they've likely already made their pitch.
Having them sit in a gather with management doesn't move the needle. What are they going to do ... stare him down until he tells Boras to take what Boston offers, regardless of how it compares to other teams?
I kind of envisioned the Sox FO making their pitch and as Soto and Boras look at each other with sour faces Otiz stands up and looks at Breslow, Kennedy and Co and proclaims..."Papi got this".
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
22,968
Maine
I know people hold the Manny signing up as a great success, but after signing him for 8/$160M, how many times did they try to move him, including placing him on waivers and allowing anyone to assume the rest of his contract?
To be fair, more often than not that was prompted by Manny himself saying he wanted out. The placing him on waivers thing was specifically done to demonstrate to him that no one was interested in taking his contract for free, let alone trading assets for it. I mean, isn't the story that the first time Manny met John Henry after Henry bought the team, he asked to be traded?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
22,968
Maine
This is the point I’m trying to make, in what is considered one of the better long-term free agent contracts the Red Sox have signed in my lifetime.
Different financial environment back then though. I imagine if that were today, the Sox would have found a taker for that contract (even adjusted for inflation).
 

pjheff

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2003
1,635
Different financial environment back then though. I imagine if that were today, the Sox would have found a taker for that contract (even adjusted for inflation).
Does it seem odd to hold up that precedent to advocate signing Soto for significantly more years and money in this financial environment?
 

Sausage in Section 17

Poker Champ
SoSH Member
Mar 17, 2004
2,317
I have no idea why signing Bogaerts would make the team's future prospects look worse. Even in his worse years in San Diego, Bogaerts has been better than the pu-pu platter of garbage that has been at shortstop for the Red Sox since he left.
Bogaerts played over 80% of last season at 2B. He's probably not a SS anymore.

He also put up 1.2 WAR, had his lowest seasonal OPS since his rookie year, and is signed for the next 9 years at $25M/season.

He is a perfect example of how free agency can backfire. I loved him, and am relieved he is playing for someone else now.

edit- Also, WAR at SS in 2024; BOS: 1.6, SD: 0.5 Field% BOS: .972 SD: .973 Errors BOS: 18 SD: 15
 
Last edited:

Archer1979

shazowies
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
9,117
Right Here
The Mets have ~$70M they can spend next year and remain under the CBT threshold. If they do that, they'd reset their penalties and be in the same boat the Sox are currently in (who are roughly $75M under the threshold themselves at the moment). So no tangible advantage for the Sox there.

The Yankees and Dodgers are already spending over the cap so I suppose that could be an advantage. But supposedly the Dodgers are already out and with the tax penalties only being money, the Yankees probably don't view it as a significant roadblock (for that matter, neither will the Mets).
That makes sense about the Mets. While they have a ton coming off the books, it also means that they have a ton to replace in order to remain competitive.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
49,809
Different financial environment back then though. I imagine if that were today, the Sox would have found a taker for that contract (even adjusted for inflation).
I bet the Yankees themselves wish they had. 2004-2008 Manny had a near 1.000 OPS.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
33,314
I know people hold the Manny signing up as a great success, but after signing him for 8/$160M, how many times did they try to move him, including placing him on waivers and allowing anyone to assume the rest of his contract?
If you're saying that that's an indication they had regrets, I probably can't argue with it. (and I suppose it's possible that those regrets inform JWH going forward; but I doubt it). I think it's more likely though, that it was just an indication that they thought he'd outlived his usefulness. In that case, it's the right move. Cutting bait on a star is never easy. Theo traded Nomar and got sick of Manny.
 

BringBackMo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,558
Not sure if this fake news or who this guy is but here is what he posted. Sorry if someone beat me to this.

https://x.com/theskippersview/status/1857471426279661676?s=61

Developing:

We are hearing, per @skippsviewdean, that Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was discussed in the three-hour meeting between Juan Soto and the Boston Red Sox last night.

Boston seems poised to be the next super team with their finances, farm system, and Rafael Devers.

Here is their current A plan.

-Sign Juan Soto
-Trade for Vladimir Guerrero Jr
-Trade for Garret Crochet
-Go after Snell or Fried
-Meet with Roki Sasaki

This might sound redundant as it is every team's A plan.

However, with six prospects in the Top 100, they feel like they have the flexibility to go for it and not sacrifice their future. Currently, they are 14th in payroll after spending most of the 2000s in the Top 5, and it has been widely reported that they want this to change.

Triston Casa and Wilyer Abreu are also the two most likely MLB candidates to get moved this offseason.
IMG_0626.jpeg
 

pdub

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 2, 2007
571
There's no way we get Vlad Jr. We certainly have the assets to make it happen, but the first question is if Toronto will even trade with us given they are rivals. Assuming yes, the next question is are we willing to pay the AL East tax? Its more likely we hope he becomes a free agent.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
People who think that teams participate to drive up the price, have you gamed it out to the end? In negotiations, if you are a party, don't have an offer you have to assume there won't be one until proven otherwise. Here it's multilateral, between the player and more than one team. But there are real limits in a small economy - 30 teams - to what you can do to mess around.

A team could feign interest and make a call or two, and the agent can say stuff, but I doubt the serious teams would feel much pressure to bid higher on that basis alone. Obviously you can't make a fake offer, because if they call back to accept... your professional reputation can't take that sort of hit. I would guess that even agents can't say "I have another higher offer" when they don't, if they want anyone to trust them again. So the player can't run too far with fake offers. Bidders can't do much without a real offer. Real offers definitely do drive up the price.

So, I'm sure teams can do some performative tire kicking, but I doubt that would drive up the price much, except where a team was hoping to lowball a guy because he had no other suitors. They might hear the rumors and think they need to play a little less hard hardball with a guy. I can't see anything else mattering.
 
Last edited:

manny

New Member
Jul 24, 2005
295
The Vladdy Jr. tweet is one of those unserious Twitter accounts that tries to repackage news reports from legitimate sources as their own. Morosi had reported that the Jays not having Vlad signed long-term was viewed as a negative whereas the Sox having Devers signed is viewed as a positive for Soto. Merloni actually commented on that report and misunderstood it to be saying that the Sox were in on both Soto and Vlad. I am guessing that is where the unserious account took it from.
 

sean1562

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 17, 2011
3,739
That makes sense about the Mets. While they have a ton coming off the books, it also means that they have a ton to replace in order to remain competitive.
The Mets don't have to pay big money for players on different teams anymore.

In 2024, they paid:

$25 million to Justin Verlander
$20.83 million to Max Scherzer
$9.5 million to James McCann

They are also probably not signing Pete Alonso, who was paid $20.5 million last season. I don't think Mark Vientos is a very good 3B, so he may slide over to 1B to cover Pete's absence. Their 2024 payroll was $311 million, and now they are around $190 million, more or less.
 

OCD SS

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
To those who get all giddy at the prospect of "driving up the price" for the Yankees, Mets, Phils, Dodgers, etc... You do realize that by doing so you're driving up the price of other players as well, right?
I posted it up thread, but if there is an example of bidding just to drive the price up, please show it, because I think it’s exclusively something fans talk about.

If there’s something all 30 owners agree on, it’s suppressing player salaries. If a rising tide lifts all boats, it’s coming out of their pockets, so they pretty much only go after players they want. The owners will certainly bid on player to sign them, but they will also declare themselves “out” on a player as well. (To avoid running up the cost). The closest example I can think of is other suitors to Cole dropping out once it was clear he was going to the Yankees.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
9,976
I posted it up thread, but if there is an example of bidding just to drive the price up, please show it, because I think it’s exclusively something fans talk about.

If there’s something all 30 owners agree on, it’s suppressing player salaries. If a rising tide lifts all boats, it’s coming out of their pockets, so they pretty much only go after players they want. The owners will certainly bid on player to sign them, but they will also declare themselves “out” on a player as well. (To avoid running up the cost). The closest example I can think of is other suitors to Cole dropping out once it was clear he was going to the Yankees.
I'd say the freakishly weird shortstop market of the 22-23 offseason came close, but that was a group thing and not an individual player.
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,534
I know people hold the Manny signing up as a great success, but after signing him for 8/$160M, how many times did they try to move him, including placing him on waivers and allowing anyone to assume the rest of his contract?
Well the “they” that tried to move him wasn’t the guys who signed him. Totally different ownership and front office

as it is, I think their desire to move him was far more motivated by him asking to be moved and also the possibility to upgrading from Manny to A-Rod
 

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
4,114
Well the “they” that tried to move him wasn’t the guys who signed him. Totally different ownership and front office
True, but signing players to expensive deals and then subsequently trading them away a few years later has been something of a pattern during the Henry years.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
25,828
Well the “they” that tried to move him wasn’t the guys who signed him. Totally different ownership and front office

as it is, I think their desire to move him was far more motivated by him asking to be moved and also the possibility to upgrading from Manny to A-Rod
Not only that but in the 2004 Fox on Netflix Theo said that Manny would come up to him every day and say, “when are you going to trade me Theo?”

He didn’t want to be here, until he did.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
16,968
Remember the trade deadline in 2005 when it was assumed Manny was going to be traded…..until he entered the game as a pinch-hitter and knocked in the winning run?
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
57,008
deep inside Guido territory
Highlights of McAdam on his podcast—process will play out over weeks if not months. Sox are seriously pursuing Soto. Originally thought his landing spot is Mets and still believes it. But the Red Sox interest is genuine and real. More meetings are taking place next week. Red Sox made a good presentation. Video component that highlighted the Dominican legacy. Ortiz is Soto’s hero. Last night was informational for both sides. No money was talked about. Winter meetings is a likely time to see Soto signed.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
9,006
Boston, MA
Remember the trade deadline in 2005 when it was assumed Manny was going to be traded…..until he entered the game as a pinch-hitter and knocked in the winning run?
Manny's back! And back big!

The idea that Soto would possibly get 15 years and $700 million would be completely insane if Ohtani didn't just get that. That whole deferral trick actually may have increased Soto's deal by hundreds of millions of dollars.
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
48,518
Remember the trade deadline in 2005 when it was assumed Manny was going to be traded…..until he entered the game as a pinch-hitter and knocked in the winning run?
Manny's back! And back big!

The idea that Soto would possibly get 15 years and $700 million would be completely insane if Ohtani didn't just get that. That whole deferral trick actually may have increased Soto's deal by hundreds of millions of dollars.
In a column for Newsday, David Lennon details how former major leaguer and current Cubs batting instructor Manny Ramirez nearly came to the Mets in a trade. In 2005, then-GM of the Mets Omar Minaya came “within a few hours” of securing Ramirez in a trade with the Red Sox

The Mets tried to get the Rays involved as a third team in a deal, but they backed out when they realized they wouldn’t be able to get then-prospect Hanley Ramirez from the Red Sox. In the final hours, Lennon details, the Mets thought they had cinched a deal which would have sent Lastings Milledge and Mike Cameron to Boston, but talks fell apart hours ahead of the 4 PM EST deadline on July 31.

Jim Duquette, Minaya’s VP of baseball operations in 2005, said of the negotiations:

“We weren’t able to match up and give them enough,” Duquette said. “They were looking for more younger players in return. We wanted them to give more money. We weren’t going to take the full freight on that one. I don’t think they thought Milledge was the right guy. That’s why we were trying to bring in a third team
https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/that-time-manny-ramirez-nearly-became-a-met
View: https://youtu.be/vf4-iGNducI?si=pPvNr67B7sYJuNI8&t=8401

Papelbon was the starter (making his MLB debut)
Curt Schilling got the save (!!)
 
Last edited:

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
17,839
I have no idea why signing Bogaerts would make the team's future prospects look worse. Even in his worse years in San Diego, Bogaerts has been better than the pu-pu platter of garbage that has been at shortstop for the Red Sox since he left. You might need to expand your point here.
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2023/07/red-sox-draft-georgia-tech-ss-with-compensation-pick-for-xander-bogaerts.html
One day after taking Virginia catcher Kyle Teel in the first round, the Sox took Georgia Tech shortstop Kristian Campbell with a compensation pick at No. 132. Boston got that pick once longtime shortstop Xander Bogaerts declined the club’s qualifying offer and signed elsewhere last winter.
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2024/11/13/kristian-campbell-rise-red-sox-mlb/

Campbell was a fourth-round compensation draft pick turned Top 10 MLB prospect in just one season. He earned a myriad of awards after recording a triple slash of .330/.439/.558 with 20 HR and 77 RBI in his first full season as a pro. At this time last season, Red Sox fans hoped that Campbell wouldn’t be a waste of the compensation pick they got after losing Xander Bogaerts. Now, they’re hoping he can be Boston’s next great star.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,862
Chicago, IL
This is the point I’m trying to make, in what is considered one of the better long-term free agent contracts the Red Sox have signed in my lifetime.
That's because Manny was a clubhouse problem, a difficult, unreliable person, often a prima donna, and one who physically assaulted a member of the clubhouse staff.
Edit: It wasn't because he didn't justify the salary with his numbers.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,862
Chicago, IL
The Mets don't have to pay big money for players on different teams anymore.

In 2024, they paid:

$25 million to Justin Verlander
$20.83 million to Max Scherzer
$9.5 million to James McCann

They are also probably not signing Pete Alonso, who was paid $20.5 million last season. I don't think Mark Vientos is a very good 3B, so he may slide over to 1B to cover Pete's absence. Their 2024 payroll was $311 million, and now they are around $190 million, more or less.
Which goes to show you how with a little elbow grease you how quickly you can retreat from a big payroll roster if it ain't working out. That is: signing some big contracts doesn't necessarily doom your future. Red Sox pulled a smaller version of this Houdini trick twice during Henry's tenure.
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

Don't know him from Adam
SoSH Member
Mar 14, 2006
11,429
Kernersville, NC
Remember the trade deadline in 2005 when it was assumed Manny was going to be traded…..until he entered the game as a pinch-hitter and knocked in the winning run?
Yep, my mom and I were at that game. I was getting married in September, so she’s took me up to Boston for a mother son trip. Papelbon made his debut that day as well if I remember correctly.
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
48,518
Yep, my mom and I were at that game. I was getting married in September, so she’s took me up to Boston for a mother son trip. Papelbon made his debut that day as well if I remember correctly.
I just posted the full game (vis youtube) above you.
And you would be correct. schilling got the save as well
 

RS2004foreever

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2022
1,611
Not sure if this fake news or who this guy is but here is what he posted. Sorry if someone beat me to this.

https://x.com/theskippersview/status/1857471426279661676?s=61

Developing:

We are hearing, per @skippsviewdean, that Vladimir Guerrero Jr. was discussed in the three-hour meeting between Juan Soto and the Boston Red Sox last night.

Boston seems poised to be the next super team with their finances, farm system, and Rafael Devers.

Here is their current A plan.

-Sign Juan Soto
-Trade for Vladimir Guerrero Jr
-Trade for Garret Crochet
-Go after Snell or Fried
-Meet with Roki Sasaki

This might sound redundant as it is every team's A plan.

However, with six prospects in the Top 100, they feel like they have the flexibility to go for it and not sacrifice their future. Currently, they are 14th in payroll after spending most of the 2000s in the Top 5, and it has been widely reported that they want this to change.

Triston Casa and Wilyer Abreu are also the two most likely MLB candidates to get moved this offseason.
This strikes me as the inverse of all the Walter hot takes.
 

greek_gawd_of_walks

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 14, 2009
9,542
Wiscansin, by way of Attleboro
Maybe it's me getting older, but I root for this team. I'm choosing to believe what's being reported at face value. I'll never know if this off-season pursuit of high caliber targets is in earnest or just window dressing. And I can't forget how this ownership has approached the most recent off seasons.

But damn, be happy they put an extensive PowerPoint together and had Papi involved. You know, papi is very persuasive.

And if there's anything to get Soto to think of any place outside of the Bronx, God bless. I hear Queens is very Kevin Jamesy