BOS offered Bogaerts 1/30 additional not to opt out (Heyman report)

chawson

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Pretty encouraging stuff.

The fact that Texas dropped $500M on what so far has amounted to a .195/.260/.311 line up the middle may affect things.

I don't know what to make of X's own numbers. The .344 BA and .846 OPS are terrific, but that .109 ISO is a little goofy. OTOH, maybe his career-low fly ball rate (22.4%) is strategic. This is not the year to lift the ball.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Pretty encouraging stuff.

The fact that Texas dropped $500M on what so far has amounted to a .195/.260/.311 line up the middle may affect things.

I don't know what to make of X's own numbers. The .344 BA and .846 OPS are terrific, but that .109 ISO is a little goofy. OTOH, maybe his career-low fly ball rate (22.4%) is strategic. This is not the year to lift the ball.
Where are you seeing 22.4%? BBref has it at 16.3%. His BAbip is .438.
 

sezwho

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Translation: I'm starting to realize that I'm not going to get paid like I hoped on the open market and want to make sure I can still get the best possible offer here
Or maybe he's seeing the writing on the walls and wants to try and stay. Boras needs an opt out to get paid (current contract benefits prior agent) so that's set in stone, and keeping Boston engaged keeps his player happy and the bidding active. No down side.
 

Max Power

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Where are you seeing 22.4%? BBref has it at 16.3%. His BAbip is .438.
Outfielders have started playing way back the last couple of years. Teams would rather give up singles than doubles and position the defense accordingly. Xander has hit a ton of soft liners over the heads of the infielders that have dropped in. I don't know if it's intentional on his part, but if someone did try to do that, they could certainly maintain a .400+ BABIP against current baseball defenses.
 

Rovin Romine

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“I don’t know how this would work. But if they talk to Scott behind closed doors and it’s something that’s fair, he can come to me,” Bogaerts said. “We’ll see how that goes.”
Translation: I'm starting to realize that I'm not going to get paid like I hoped on the open market and want to make sure I can still get the best possible offer here
Probably.

Also, bonus points for his passive tone in characterizing the relationships here. Boras works for Xander. Xander can use any agency he wants. Therefore it works the way Xander wants it to work, regardless of Boras's advice. The tone makes me think it could be just passive deflection. He has the option of just saying, "I like it here, and the door is always open for a fair deal."
 

mikcou

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Translation: I'm starting to realize that I'm not going to get paid like I hoped on the open market and want to make sure I can still get the best possible offer here
I wouldnt assume that. Seems more likely that hes admitting to himself that if they give him the money he wants in July rather than in March, he will take it. Doubt the price is any lower than it was in March.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I wouldnt assume that. Seems more likely that hes admitting to himself that if they give him the money he wants in July rather than in March, he will take it. Doubt the price is any lower than it was in March.
Agreed. Wouldn't shock me if he's slightly backing off on the "I won't negotiate during the season" stance because he thinks that might be more tolerable/less distracting than trade rumors hanging over his head for the next 2.5 months.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Fangraphs has his FB% at 22.4, but that 16.3% stat is wild. Seems like the two sites have different criteria.
Yeah, BBref includes all fly balls put in play including HR's. Fangraphs doesn't include HRs.

edit: Actually that makes no sense math wise. That's what it says though.
 

chawson

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Yeah, BBref includes all fly balls put in play including HR's. Fangraphs doesn't include HRs.

edit: Actually that makes no sense math wise. That's what it says though.
Hmm, could you source me on that? Seeing here that Fangraphs batted ball statistics do account for home runs.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Hmm, could you source me on that? Seeing here that Fangraphs batted ball statistics do account for home runs.
Same source, that's what I get for skimming. I have no clue what the difference could be. The sample size is so small it's probably like 1 little thing that's the difference, though.
 

chawson

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Same source, that's what I get for skimming. I have no clue what the difference could be. The sample size is so small it's probably like 1 little thing that's the difference, though.
Gotcha. Yeah, surely some SSS at play but that’s a fairly sizable gap between the sites and I didn’t know there was one. Seems like Bref gets their data from Retrosheet.org and Fangraphs from Baseball Info Solutions, but I don’t think I care enough to know the granular detail.

Anyway, Xander is not hitting the ball in the air this year! The K’s, groundballs, nubbers/infield hits, chase rate, first pitch swings and whiffs on strikes in the zone are all up. Walks, fly balls, ISO/power, barrels and contact on pitches out of the zone are all down. Results have been good so far and it’s possibly a response to the dead ball, but it’s not a tremendously encouraging profile. You’d think a conscious shift away from lazy fly balls would result in fewer whiffs.
 

Vermonter At Large

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Anyway, Xander is not hitting the ball in the air this year! The K’s, groundballs, nubbers/infield hits, chase rate, first pitch swings and whiffs on strikes in the zone are all up. Walks, fly balls, ISO/power, barrels and contact on pitches out of the zone are all down. Results have been good so far and it’s possibly a response to the dead ball, but it’s not a tremendously encouraging profile. You’d think a conscious shift away from lazy fly balls would result in fewer whiffs.
Do you actually watch the games? This is a serious question, because the Xander we see watching all of the games has been absolutely brilliant. Whatever the cause of the offensive crash in MLB this year (cold weather, dead balls, defensive shifts, etc), he has risen above his peers in adapting to the situation, pitcher and conditions with his hitting. The (many) hitters across MLB and the Sox lineup who aren't hitting are the ones with grooved swings, perfect launch angles and predictable BIP outcomes. Watching the games, I have become a HUGE Bogaerts fan and believe that the Sox absolutely HAVE to extend him (and his right-side protege) for the rest of their playing careers.
 
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Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Week Bogaerts switch positions with Story if asked? If not, and they extend him, aren't the Red Sox then wandering into the same pitfall their rivals in pinstripes did for years by catering to Jeter's need to be the starting shortstop while the better defensive (and offensive) player was right next to him? Story is obviously no A-Rod, but he's a better defensive SS than he is a 2B, or at least should be since it's his natural position. And how long do you extend him knowing that Mayer is only a few years away? If he's willing to move off SS, then I think it's a good plan. If he's not, it feels riskier.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Week Bogaerts switch positions with Story if asked? If not, and they extend him, aren't the Red Sox then wandering into the same pitfall their rivals in pinstripes did for years by catering to Jeter's need to be the starting shortstop while the better defensive (and offensive) player was right next to him? Story is obviously no A-Rod, but he's a better defensive SS than he is a 2B, or at least should be since it's his natural position. And how long do you extend him knowing that Mayer is only a few years away? If he's willing to move off SS, then I think it's a good plan. If he's not, it feels riskier.
Feel like this has been said over and over, but Bogaerts isn't likely to agree to a position change (even a future one) before he signs a new deal. He's aiming to be paid like Lindor and Seager, not Story and Semien. To do that, he's got to be viewed as a SS. Once he's signed and locked into the last significant contract of his career, he might be more flexible about changing positions. Regardless, I can't see him changing within the next couple years. Come 2024 or 2025 when/if Mayer is knocking on the door, that's a whole different world than where we are now.
 

chawson

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Do you actually watch the games? This is a serious question, because the Xander we see watching all of the games has been absolutely brilliant. Whatever the cause of the offensive crash in MLB this year (cold weather, dead balls, defensive shifts, etc), he has risen above his peers in adapting to the situation, pitcher and conditions with his hitting. The (many) hitters across MLB and the Sox lineup who aren't hitting are the ones with grooved swings, perfect launch angles and predictable BIP outcomes. Watching the games, I have become a HUGE Bogaerts fan and believe that the Sox absolutely HAVE to extend him (and his right-side protege) for the rest of their playing careers.
I’m watching about one or two games a week these days. Regardless, I’m also a huge Bogaerts fan and want them to extend him. I’d be happy with an extension at like 7/$175, which is probably higher than most here would be comfortable with.

It’s early - I agree he’s making adjustments and I’m not worried, but I don’t think our love for Bogaerts should prohibit us from discussing that his whiff rate is higher than ever (and worse in May).
 
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Sprowl

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Week Bogaerts switch positions with Story if asked? If not, and they extend him, aren't the Red Sox then wandering into the same pitfall their rivals in pinstripes did for years by catering to Jeter's need to be the starting shortstop while the better defensive (and offensive) player was right next to him? Story is obviously no A-Rod, but he's a better defensive SS than he is a 2B, or at least should be since it's his natural position. And how long do you extend him knowing that Mayer is only a few years away? If he's willing to move off SS, then I think it's a good plan. If he's not, it feels riskier.
On the basis of observation so far this year, Story has better range and glove work than Bogaerts, but a substantially less accurate arm. Whether that's due to his prior elbow injury is hard to say for anybody who didn't see Story fielding in Colorado, but it seems to me like a recipe for keeping Bogaerts at SS, where his arm plays as well as ever, and affirming Story's move to 2B, where his glove plays just as well, and his arm should adapt better than at SS.
 

Vermonter At Large

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Week Bogaerts switch positions with Story if asked? If not, and they extend him, aren't the Red Sox then wandering into the same pitfall their rivals in pinstripes did for years by catering to Jeter's need to be the starting shortstop while the better defensive (and offensive) player was right next to him? Story is obviously no A-Rod, but he's a better defensive SS than he is a 2B, or at least should be since it's his natural position. And how long do you extend him knowing that Mayer is only a few years away? If he's willing to move off SS, then I think it's a good plan. If he's not, it feels riskier.
What gets lost in most comparative analysis is how much better an offensive player Bogaerts is compared to other contemporary shortstops. The only really comparable offensive talent is Wander Franco and, sometimes, Tim Anderson. For all the hype, Correa, Seager, Story, Turner, Lindor and Bichette are really only slightly above average hitters in comparison.

The interesting dynamic here is that WaR, which nearly everyone uses for comparison nowadays, has a built-in inflation for the middle-of-the-defensive-spectrum guys, so objects in that lens are larger than they appear. So you need to look at some of the good old pure offensive metrics like OPS+ or wOBP for comparison of offensive skills. In fact, looking at collective OPS, the bottom four offensive positions are 1.) Catcher, 2.) Second Base, 3.) Shortstop, 4.) Centerfield, same as they always were.

So unlike nearly every other SS in MLB, Bogaerts has offensive skills that transcend his defensive position. He could move to a corner infield spot or to DH in a season or two without penalty to the offense. It's the same with Devers, who could easily move to 1B or DH to accommodate either Story, or in a year or two, Meyer and/or Yorke.
 

Vermonter At Large

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It’s early - I agree he’s making adjustments and I’m not worried, but I don’t think our love for Bogaerts should prohibit us from discussing that his whiff rate is higher than ever (and worse in May).
True enough, his K rate is up and walk rate is down, but to some extent I think there has been extra pressure on Bogaerts/Devers/Martinez to produce given the absolute suckitude of everyone else on the team. You mention the negatives like K/BB/FB/HR/ISO numbers, but his hard-hit and line drive rates are high, he's pushing balls to RF a lot. His BABIP is off-the-charts. There are lots of batting anomalies in MLB this year so far, and his metrics are wild, but largely explainable.
 

jon abbey

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What gets lost in most comparative analysis is how much better an offensive player Bogaerts is compared to other contemporary shortstops. The only really comparable offensive talent is Wander Franco and, sometimes, Tim Anderson. For all the hype, Correa, Seager, Story, Turner, Lindor and Bichette are really only slightly above average hitters in comparison.
Bogaerts gets a big boost from playing at Fenway, career home OPS of .872 and road OPS of .757. Correa was the only other one of these guys I looked up, .842 at home and .824 on the road.
 

Vermonter At Large

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Bogaerts gets a big boost from playing at Fenway, career home OPS of .872 and road OPS of .757. Correa was the only other one of these guys I looked up, .842 at home and .824 on the road.
Correa has had a difficult career to properly assess because he's only really played two full seasons for one reason or another. Interestingly, many of his rate stats are similar to Bogie's: he's striking out more, walking less; his HRs and fly balls are way down, but he's hitting the ball as hard and getting just as many line drives as before. The primary difference between he and Zander has been his apparent (inability or unwillingness) to push the ball to the opposite field. In the strange environment that has so far been 2022, he's clearly inferior right now.
 

jon abbey

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Correa has had a difficult career to properly assess because he's only really played two full seasons for one reason or another. Interestingly, many of his rate stats are similar to Bogie's: he's striking out more, walking less; his HRs and fly balls are way down, but he's hitting the ball as hard and getting just as many line drives as before. The primary difference between he and Zander has been his apparent (inability or unwillingness) to push the ball to the opposite field. In the strange environment that has so far been 2022, he's clearly inferior right now.
Oh, yeah, I thought you were talking careers and not just comparing the 100 ABs or so from 2022 so far.
 

cantor44

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Agreed. Wouldn't shock me if he's slightly backing off on the "I won't negotiate during the season" stance because he thinks that might be more tolerable/less distracting than trade rumors hanging over his head for the next 2.5 months.
Or maybe he simply said what he said because a reporter asked him the question. Xander's a decent person - he doesn't want to be rude or a prima donna. I doubt he's parsing out strategies about what to say about in-season negotiation vs. trade rumors - too much out of his control to make that consideration. A reporter asked a question, he gave a polite answer.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Honestly, the team is terrible and going nowhere this season. Extending any FA to be seems really unlikely. No need to make any decisions now, can see if things miraculously turn around in the next few weeks and months, but have to think they will at least entertain trade offers and see if there’s anything he’d agree to.
 

azsoxpatsfan

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True enough, his K rate is up and walk rate is down, but to some extent I think there has been extra pressure on Bogaerts/Devers/Martinez to produce given the absolute suckitude of everyone else on the team. You mention the negatives like K/BB/FB/HR/ISO numbers, but his hard-hit and line drive rates are high, he's pushing balls to RF a lot. His BABIP is off-the-charts. There are lots of batting anomalies in MLB this year so far, and his metrics are wild, but largely explainable.
FWIW, X always has a high BABIP. Career .335, with a .372 one season. Only ever sub-.300 was he rookie year at .296. So his current .420 mark should come down, but it doesn’t have to come down all that much to be in the scope of his career numbers
 

Cesar Crespo

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FWIW, X always has a high BABIP. Career .335, with a .372 one season. Only ever sub-.300 was he rookie year at .296. So his current .420 mark should come down, but it doesn’t have to come down all that much to be in the scope of his career numbers
He's 42/99 with BIP. Change it to his career mark of .335 and his 2022 line falls to .271/.338/.399. Not great, but league average is .235/.307/.377.