Borrowing Trouble....What happens to YOU If Bogaerts and Devers Go the Way of Mookie?

sezwho

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If both players walk I will definitely be less interested, and as I write this I realize frankly on some level a bit pissed.

Ultimately, my interest would wane in part because I would miss watching X&D actually play, but primarily because I would perceive it as the Sox saying "we're really not about winning right now, we're transforming our operating model". In which case fine, just call me when you're done and maybe I'll do some prospect humping in the mean time.

If this somehow is coupled with very high performing teams, I would question my assumption about deprioritizing seasons and they could potentially win me back sooner.
 

E5 Yaz

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Bloom in particular seems like Duquette, more interested in doing something clever than just getting out there and winning.
The Duquette that traded for Pedro and signed Manny?

Along with what @Daniel_Son said about remaining competitive, Bloom primary charge was to rebuild an organization that was stripped bare. That's far more than "doing something clever"; it's setting the franchise up with continued success, rather than throwing a lot of money around and, when those checks come due, being unable to supplement from the farm system
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Along with what @Daniel_Son said about remaining competitive, Bloom primary charge was to rebuild an organization that was stripped bare. That's far more than "doing something clever"; it's setting the franchise up with continued success, rather than throwing a lot of money around and, when those checks come due, being unable to supplement from the farm system
I'd argue that you could do both; restock the farm club while also making sure that the big league club also improves. It's not a binary decision.

This book confirmed a lot of my feelings in recent years and has made me embrace watching more baseball but less Red Sox, and exploring different sports from a casual fans perspective. I feel like this book would hit well for anyone in the 40ish+ age bracket.
Same thing with me. I've watched almost as many Dodgers games as I have Red Sox games. LA is a fun team to watch filled with really good players, the Sox are a slog.
 

E5 Yaz

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I'd argue that you could do both; restock the farm club while also making sure that the big league club also improves. It's not a binary decision.
Of course, but I was reacting to the notion that Bloom was more interested in "doing something clever" than winning ... which I find to be bullshit
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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The Duquette that traded for Pedro and signed Manny?
Yeah, the same Duquette. He finally figured out that screwing around with Lee Tinsley (Franchy Cordero), Steve Avery (Garret Richards) and Brian Daubach* (Bobby Dalbec) wasn't getting the job done and he was given the resources by management to do something about it. Hopefully Bloom does the same and is given the same opportunity.

I will grant that my analogy is not perfect in that Bloom doesn't really get more than an Incomplete in terms of whether he really prefers to run popular plays out of town over money - the sample size of that decision right now is basically one, but the signs don't seem promising to me. And when I say Bloom, it might be more accurately said Bloom and FSG. I don't think that Bloom doesn't want to compete - I think he fundamentally wants to do the best he can given the constraints in which he has to work - but I do think that FSG has changed its approach to 2018. It seems happy to have occasionally competitive teams and to have a top-third payroll, but not to have a top three payroll like we did in our glory days. And Bloom seems happy to sign cheap players, go dumpster diving for reclamation projects and hope the farm system produces talent. Just like early Duquette.

* Comparing Daubach to Dalbec is an insult to Daubach, but I still find myself thinking the announcers are saying Daubach when they mention Bobby Dalbec.
 
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Leskanic's Thread

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I hate when players I love leave. I hate when players I loved are still around and getting paid a ton to underperform or not perform. I enjoy watching new players come in and win over my heart. I enjoy the armchair game-around-the-game of figuring out roster construction through proposed trades, prospect development, free agent signings, etc. I hate feeling like the sport lacks loyalty. I enjoy team success. I hate that pulling for team success can mean prioritizing the benefits of billionaire owners over players. I enjoy rooting for Xander and Rafi. I hate not being able to root for Mookie. I enjoy when they win 9 out of 10. I hate when they lose 9 out of 10.

It's all complicated, man. But as to the core question? I didn't stop rooting for the team when it came out that the team covered up for a clubhouse child molester for decades and proceeded to spend the following decades trying to shirk responsibility for it. For better or for worse, I'm not turning on them for roster moves.
 

TapeAndPosts

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* Comparing Daubach to Dalbec is an insult to Daubach, but I still find myself thinking the announcers are saying Daubach when they mention Bobby Dalbec.
The parallels are striking, though as you say Daubach had a much, much better age 27 season (149 OPS+ in 1999) than Dalbec is having.

In related news, I just googled Brian Daubach and I was really not prepared for what I found.
 

Cesar Crespo

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The parallels are striking, though as you say Daubach had a much, much better age 27 season (149 OPS+ in 1999) than Dalbec is having.

In related news, I just googled Brian Daubach and I was really not prepared for what I found.
He looks good for a 70 year old. Too bad he's 50.
 

OurF'ingCity

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At the same time, I think the group of fans whining about Mookie and who will whine about Bogaerts and Devers are a small portion of the fan base who just happen to be particularly vocal on this forum.
I’m late to this thread but the exact reverse of the above is true. I think the members of this forum generally (not universally) were annoyed at the Betts trade but could at least understand the logic behind it. But most casual Red Sox fans I know were apoplectic and didn’t understand it at all.

I suspect the same would be the case if Bogaerts or Devers were traded or signed elsewhere. The causal fan is just going to see “big name leaves Red Sox and joins other team” and isn’t going to be as focused on cost savings or new prospects or whatever.
 

Zupcic Fan

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Interesting discussion. in my case I pretty much just watch the games and hope they have a good season. I won’t ever lose sleep over who they sign and who they don’t. I watch less this year because the whole team frustrates me with their hack away having no idea of the strike zone approaches. my watching less has zero to do with guys they didn’t sign. I I agree with people who think Devers is worth the big bucks and Xander isn’t. I always refer to JD Martinez and Xander as the two worst good hitters in baseball. Decent numbers, good averages, a whole ton of awful at bats, and They never seem to come through in at bats I actually care about. As far as Mookie goes, I’d love to have him, sure. But Mookie had one year where he played to the salary he’s getting. Since he’s been on the Dodgers he’s been solid, lots of injuries, decent production, nothing special as far as I can tell. But 30 million a year. Come on. But I also agree that with the money these owners have, why not sign guys like him for more than they are worth? The important thing is to keep filling Fenway. Devers is special. Xander isn’t. If I’m gonna get fleeced by an agent, I want special
 

8slim

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You're right. I don't want what I wrote to be a nostalgia trip, because it's not. There's a lot about baseball that I like now, the Fenway experience is one of them. Who liked pissing in a trough? I like that the DH is universal. I like the wild card games. I like the WBC. I like that there's going to be a pitch clock really soon.

The point of what I was writing earlier wasn't that progress is bad, because it's not; but that progress for efficiency isn't always great. You lose some stuff along the way. Watching MLB cut the minors down to what they are today angers me far more than Mookie Betts leaving Boston.

If you haven't read "Rethinking Fandom" by Craig Calcaterra, you should. That recommendation isn't just for DDB, it's for everyone.
Years ago I read that oral history of MTV based on your recommendation and loved it, so I'm going to read the Calcaterra book. Sounds like it's right up my alley, given the thoughts I have on the current state of the sports biz.

As to the broader question posed here... I'm older, life is crazy, and I watch sports to be entertained. I've repeated this POV in the various threads about banning the shift, pitch clocks, and that stuff, but I want baseball to do absolutely everything in its power to make the game more entertaining. The past decade+ have been spent seeing them do the opposite, in my humble opinion. To me (and maybe only me) the shift, and the glacial pace of play, and management's sheer terror of letting a starter go a 3rd time through the order, et. al. have made the game far less entertaining.

And what's more entertaining than (a) watching your favorite team win, and (b) doing so with ball players that are fun to watch. I know it's necessary, but the mechanics of contracts and luxury taxes bore me to tears. I just wanted to watch Mookie play on my Red Sox for many more years, and it sucks that he isn't. Same goes for Devers. If he walks, I'll still watch the Sox, I'm never going to abandon a team that has been embedded in my family for a nearly 100 years. But it may be some degree less entertaining if it causes the team to win less, and if he's replaced by an revolving door of of "cheap" signings. I guess we'll see.
 

pk1627

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2004 changed everything. Red Sox baseball became a source for delight rather than frustration. If they do amazing things on the field, I love it. If they have some disappointing outcomes, I get over it. That includes losing good players. (the one that really stung was Manny who messed up a really strong team in 2008).

4 championships after decades of keeping the faith. Pretty impressive. And I still like this year’s team but wish they won a couple in Tampa against a banged up Rays team. Sweating out the next 2 weeks.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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If Bloom thinks the best way to position the team for the next multi-year run is to let X walk and trade Devers, I'm ok with it. It feels to me like they are a couple of years away anyway.
 

mauf

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If you’re a GM and you listen to the fans, you’ll be sitting with them soon.

I don’t question anyone in this thread’s sincerity, but no one whose interest in the Red Sox is waning now would eagerly watch the last-place 2028 Red Sox because an aging Mookie Betts and Xander Bogaerts happened to be on the roster. The FO has to be ruthlessly efficient about how it deploys the resources it chooses to spend on talent. Keeping homegrown talent can be a winning strategy, but winning has to be the goal — not continuity, not sentimentality, not anything else.

Personally, I think they made the correct choice on Mookie in hindsight, should move on from X this off-season, and should make a major push to extend Devers. But above all I want them to do what’s best for the club in the long run.
 

Rovin Romine

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I want players I like to stick around but I also don't want to see the last years of Pedroia on the team. I don't give a flying fuck about John Henry saving money or whatever other bullshit is thrown at posters that point out budget issues with long term contracts. The amount of money players make is obscene. Fucking obscene. The amount of money John Henry makes off the team is obscene. It's disgusting. The amount it cost to go see a damn game is stupid. My honest preference is for professional sports to all just go the fuck away. Take a small chunk of their salaries and pay our fucking teachers and public workers and health care home workers. The fact that I still pay attention to baseball and professional sports in general makes me hate myself.... but as long as it's still there I can't stop looking. Our culture is completely out of whack and the fact that Henry and Devers are feeling "insulted" over the difference of $2 million per year is insanity.

All that said... I'll still watch the Red Sox with or without players I've grown to care about. Out of Devers and Xander, I think Xander makes more sense to sign what the stupid market will determine.
Bravo.

Brav-fucking-O.

As a coda to this excellent post, I'd note that much of the stuff we believe we know about players is filtered through a PR lens, then further distorted by our own biases and expectations. Children like heroes, and it's not the worst thing for adults to like them too. The difference is a child can reasonably think a baseball player is a hero, whereas an adult should know they're often pretty warped human beings - by obsession or being at the center of their own small cultures of glorification and exploitation.

But to put all that aside, there are some good people who play the game, and so it's easy to root for the underdog and the random rookie. Griping over what you think the hurt feelings of multi-millionare star players are? It's so deeply deeply whacked.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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Given how many threads have re-litigated either the Mookie trade, the Sale extension, or both, I think my biggest issue personally with the potential departures of Xander or Devers will be what it means for the quality of discussion on this message board.

I mean, I’ll still read and post, don’t get me wrong.
 

canderson

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I haven’t loved a player since Dustin Pedroia. Big Papi is God but I loved Pedroia more.

Devers and Xander are great talents. But there will be more great talents. This team as constricted imo has significant flaws* and isn’t winning any title so if they need to be moved to get closer to a title then so be it.

*Trading them I don’t think foxes this and I question a lot of what Bloom has done x I’ll be mad at the trade simply because I don’t trust a value in return
 

snowmanny

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I'm glad that they didn't tie down payroll for a guy with one good year left, because they repurposed that money for guys who could help them win in 2007.
They repurposed that money to Matt Clement and Édgar Rentería.

edit- and Clement was on the books for 9.5 Million in 2007 and pitched zero games.
 

Jimbodandy

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So in the replies to my points about Pedro and Lester, we're noting that the team made subsequent mistakes. So is the point that spending big money on questionable guys is good or bad? I'm not sure everyone's stance on it now.

Price/Clement sucked, so we should have spent big on Lester and Pedro, who had one good year left each when they left. At least we knew those guys. That's the point here? It sounds like what's being argued.

I was 35 when we won our first title in my lifetime. My dad was a day short of his 64th birthday. My grandfather who landed here in 1922 and died in 1977 never saw one. This ownership group has won this way four times in ~20 years of owning the team. It seems to work.

If the argument is that one would rather lose with guys that they know then win with some turnover of key players, that's a surprise. It also a completely reasonable viewpoint. But I am surprised that "well they made some bad decisions along the way" is doing so much work in this thread. Of course they did. Every team does.
 

snowmanny

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My point of view is that wasted money on players who got old or bad is inevitable. I’d rather bet on Devers. I would have bet on Betts. Xander I love but he can walk.
 

Captaincoop

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Mookie's money isn't going to cripple the Dodgers' ability to build a team 7 years from now. They're the Dodgers and they print money. The Red Sox print money, too, and an aging Devers' money wouldn't stop them from building a good team in 2030 either. This is about the owners' profit and expenses, and I don't give a fig about either.

They have the highest priced tickets in baseball, they want us to pay $30/mo for NESN...they don't need to run the team like the Rays. They're doing it to squeeze more profit out of the team - which is certainly their right, but also its my right to say fuck them if they let Devers walk.
 

patinorange

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If I had a choice, keep Devers. But I hope they can keep them both. I loved my first team in 1962, I will love this team on my deathbed. Not rational, but I can't help it.
I paid my first visit to Fenway in 2006 after a 16-year absence to show my kids where my obsession started. I was so impressed with what the owners had done with the park and
what they had done with my team. In my season ticket years (late 70's, early 80's) the park was a dump. And the team wasn't much better most years.
I will always be grateful that John Henry bought the Sox. That being said, my disappointment with what I see as a decline in the passion of the front office
began with letting Mookie Betts go. In my opinion, 100% on John Henry. And this disappointment will intensify if he lets Devers and/or Xander go. It won't stop me from loving the team. Owners, players, and managers come and
go. I still haven't recovered from seeing Carlton Fisk in a White Sox uniform or Fred Lynn in an Angel's uniform. But it never stopped me from following the Sox.
I could care less how much the owners spend on salary. So, they carry some bad contract years. All big market teams do. They will get their investment back many times over. These are smart guys. But I hope they maintain that passion for winning and that passion for
fan engagement in Boston. Letting these homegrown heroes go erodes that just a bit.
 

soxhop411

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again though, that was before this season, and was a framework... which is how these things go in every sport,

I just love how the BOS media at large is using the ASB to do this shit....

/s

Prior to the start of the season, the Red Sox and third baseman Rafael Devers engaged in some extension talks that didn’t yield much progress, as the two sides were reportedly around $100MM apart in their floated prices. Some more details on the negotiations were shared by The Boston Globe’s Alex Speier, who reports that the Sox viewed Matt Olson’s extension with the Braves as a possible model for a Devers deal.

Olson signed his eight-year, $168MM extension (with a $20MM club option for 2030) just a day after Atlanta landed the first baseman in a blockbuster trade with the Athletics. Both Devers and Olson are in the same service-time class, and were under control through the 2023 via a final year of arbitration eligibility. Back in April, MLBTR’s Anthony Franco looked at Devers through the lens of the Olson extension, but also made the point that “obviously, Olson and Devers don’t make for an apples-to-apples comparison.”

From Boston’s perspective, eight years and $168MM had been established as the market rate for a star first baseman, and Speier writes that the Sox were looking for an extension in that range “citing the likelihood that Devers would spend much of the contract either at first base or designated hitter.”

There have long been questions about Devers’ long-term viability as a third baseman, as (depending on the defensive metric of choice) his glovework has generally been subpar for his entire career. This year, Devers has a -6.6 UZR/150, -2 Defensive Runs Saved, and an even 0 in Outs Above Average, indicating some small improvement from his previous numbers. For what it’s worth, OAA is the metric that has been most favorable to Devers, as his glovework in 2019 received a whopping +17 OAA (with a more modest +2.4 UZR/150 and -5 DRS).

Olson happens to be one of the league’s better defensive first basemen, which undoubtedly also figured into the argument the Red Sox put forth to Devers’ agents at Rep 1 Baseball. However, it is also pretty easy to understand the counter-arguments that Devers’ camp could make. Devers is over two and a half years younger than Olson, third base is the more difficult position, and Devers has more upside at the plate.

From 2017-2021, Devers hit .279/.338/.509 with 112 home runs over 2344 plate appearances. Over that same stretch, Olson hit .254/.348/.515 with 142 homers in 2341 PA, with Olson also playing his home games in the pitcher-friendly Coliseum while Devers hit at Fenway Park. Of course, Devers also began his MLB career at age 20, and he has already been a significant contributor to a World Series champion.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/07/details-on-spring-extension-talks-between-red-sox-rafael-devers.html
 
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Petagine in a Bottle

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again though, that was before this season, and was a framework... which is how these things go in every sport

I just love how the BOS media at large is using the ASB to do this shit....
/s
The team’s two best players are all stars, not under contract much longer, and are not negotiating with the team….is that not a story they should cover? Seems like similar stories are being written about Judge and Soto, too.
 

LoLsapien

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Depending on who they replaced them with, my interest might even go up.

Change is exciting.
This is where I'm at. Outside of the exuberance of youth, growing up with those wild 90s teams, and the Manny/Pedro early aughts, and then the '03/'04 seasons and the 2013 run.... Now, now bear with me here, but I think the wtf drama of the Bobby V. 2012 season and subsequent tear-down via the Punto trade was one of the most exciting periods of my Sox fandom. I was driving through Montana, on my way to moving back to Boston for grad school, when I got the news of the trade from my dad and I think I started laughing maniacally, to the surprise and confusion of my then-gf now wife.

Change can be good. If the team is directionless and has little realistic championship potential outside of hopes and prayers, burn it down and see what green-shoots grow.

We eventually got over Mo Vaughn leaving (it was really tough....) and if SoSH was around in 90-whatever I can only imagine the hand-wringing that a home-grown black power hitter who meant so much to the city was allowed to leave over just Mo-money.

If Bogie and Devers leave we'll be back. We always come back.
 

RedOctober3829

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again though, that was before this season, and was a framework... which is how these things go in every sport,

I just love how the BOS media at large is using the ASB to do this shit....

/s


https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/07/details-on-spring-extension-talks-between-red-sox-rafael-devers.html
Yes, it’s the media’s fault…..give me a break. If the FO couldn’t project out that Devers’ bat had this kind of potential then that’s on them. The frame is now broken.
 

BigSoxFan

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My point of view is that wasted money on players who got old or bad is inevitable. I’d rather bet on Devers. I would have bet on Betts. Xander I love but he can walk.
Agreed. Biggest thing for me is that the FA list next few years is pretty uninspiring. If you don’t splurge on Devers, where is that money going? Either you’re looking at far less impact guys or guys who themselves have similar risks. Additionally, Sale’s deal will be rolling off after 2024, which will provide some relief. Just sign Devers.
 

soxhop411

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Agreed. Biggest thing for me is that the FA list next few years is pretty uninspiring. If you don’t splurge on Devers, where is that money going? Either you’re looking at far less impact guys or guys who themselves have similar risks. Additionally, Sale’s deal will be rolling off after 2024, which will provide some relief. Just sign Devers.
and thats probably key, with all the money rolling off the books this offseason they can offer Devers a larger contract without worrying about the CBT (which they could not do this offseason)
 

Captaincoop

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Agreed. Biggest thing for me is that the FA list next few years is pretty uninspiring. If you don’t splurge on Devers, where is that money going? Either you’re looking at far less impact guys or guys who themselves have similar risks. Additionally, Sale’s deal will be rolling off after 2024, which will provide some relief. Just sign Devers.
Wait, you don't want them to resign Sale?
 

Jungleland

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If they both go, and it's not a very obvious "player absolutely wanted out at all costs in spite of a fair market offer from the team" scenario, I honestly might not watch more than 10 games in the next decade.

This team won 108 games and the World Series and is a distant 4th Boston team for me less than 4 years later despite making the final 4 last year.
 

8slim

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again though, that was before this season, and was a framework... which is how these things go in every sport,

I just love how the BOS media at large is using the ASB to do this shit....

/s


https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/07/details-on-spring-extension-talks-between-red-sox-rafael-devers.html
Come on. That "framework" was patently ridiculous in the offseason given Devers age, production and potential. I do my very best not to overreact to things, but man I don't blame Devers for being peeved. Antagonizing your best player seems like a poor negotiating strategy to me.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Clement was perfectly cromulent until he took that liner off the head and lost a lot of his Mojo. At least that's what I recall.
The real reason his career crashed and burned was a severe shoulder injury. I'm not sure if the liner caused that (by altering his mechanics somehow) but the shoulder pretty much got shredded and he was done.
 

tims4wins

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Clement was perfectly cromulent until he took that liner off the head and lost a lot of his Mojo. At least that's what I recall.
He had started to go downhill prior to the injury. He started off 9-1 with a 3.33 ERA through 16 starts. Pretty great in the 2005 offensive environment. But in the next 4 starts leading up to the injury he had an 8.61 ERA over 23 IP. 38 baserunners in those 23 IP. But he bounced back immediately after the injury, going 5-2 with a 3.43 ERA in his next 7 starts.

So, the injury was basically a complete non-factor. Urban legend.
 

Shaky Walton

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Come on. That "framework" was patently ridiculous in the offseason given Devers age, production and potential. I do my very best not to overreact to things, but man I don't blame Devers for being peeved. Antagonizing your best player seems like a poor negotiating strategy to me.
Side point: When Jon Lester got low balled, the ready made pinata was Larry Lucchino. The Lester debacle was conveniently laid at his feet by many fans and mediots. Yet we're seeing this pattern repeat itself. Unless Larry put a permanent hex on the Henry, Werner and Kennedy cabal, and included young Master Bloom in same, it's very likely that there was more to the story than LL. Again, side point, and it's actually quite sad that Lester wasn't an outlier.
 

JoePoulson

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This book confirmed a lot of my feelings in recent years and has made me embrace watching more baseball but less Red Sox, and exploring different sports from a casual fans perspective. I feel like this book would hit well for anyone in the 40ish+ age bracket.
Same thing with me. I've watched almost as many Dodgers games as I have Red Sox games. LA is a fun team to watch filled with really good players, the Sox are a slog.
Yea I stopped playing fantasy sports years ago for the same reason, I wanted to enjoy sports more overall, rather than rooting for specific players constantly. I wanted to not have to focus in one area so much as I wanted to see the bigger picture. And while I obviously still root hard for Boston teams, I absolutely enjoy sports way more now and can appreciate other players and teams differently than before.
 

Shaky Walton

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Yea I stopped playing fantasy sports years ago for the same reason, I wanted to enjoy sports more overall, rather than rooting for specific players constantly. I wanted to not have to focus in one area so much as I wanted to see the bigger picture. And while I obviously still root hard for Boston teams, I absolutely enjoy sports way more now and can appreciate other players and teams differently than before.
I am a very Boston centric fan. I'm much more of a fan of my teams than the sports themselves.

At the same time, watching games is sometimes very hard given the binary nature and the very real possibility for gut punches such as the Grady Boner, the Giants SBs and many other nights that ended in indigestion. Music has edged into sports for me as my more important form of entertainment, as I almost never have a bad night when seeing live music. As a result, I've ordered this book and look forward to it possibly opening my mind to enjoying sports more broadly. Thanks for the tip, @John Marzano Olympic Hero.
 

Jungleland

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Yea I stopped playing fantasy sports years ago for the same reason, I wanted to enjoy sports more overall, rather than rooting for specific players constantly. I wanted to not have to focus in one area so much as I wanted to see the bigger picture. And while I obviously still root hard for Boston teams, I absolutely enjoy sports way more now and can appreciate other players and teams differently than before.
Funny, I'm the opposite. Fantasy sports have absolutely increased my appreciation of non Boston teams and players by a significant amount.
 

soxhop411

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Come on. That "framework" was patently ridiculous in the offseason given Devers age, production and potential. I do my very best not to overreact to things, but man I don't blame Devers for being peeved. Antagonizing your best player seems like a poor negotiating strategy to me.
again, though that was before his production This year
Come on. That "framework" was patently ridiculous in the offseason given Devers age, production and potential. I do my very best not to overreact to things, but man I don't blame Devers for being peeved. Antagonizing your best player seems like a poor negotiating strategy to me.
was it?

These are their numbers for 2019-2021:

These are their numbers for 2019-2021:

At the time that was a perfectly fine framework to start an offer, it was not a final offer, but a framework for the starting offer...





 

BigSoxFan

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May 31, 2007
47,217
Funny, I'm the opposite. Fantasy sports have absolutely increased my appreciation of non Boston teams and players by a significant amount.
Same here. That and sports betting. Definitely increases the aggravation though!
 

8slim

has trust issues
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Nov 6, 2001
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again, though that was before his production This year

was it?

These are their numbers for 2019-2021:

These are their numbers for 2019-2021:

At the time that was a perfectly fine framework to start an offer, it was not a final offer, but a framework for the starting offer...





Olson is three years older though. Doesn't that make a world of difference when we're talking about 8-10 year contracts?

It's also a lower value than Trevor Story's deal. Granted, that may have occurred after they presented this "framework" to Devers. But is there any universe where we should be paying Devers less than Story?
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
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Jul 20, 2005
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Olson is three years older though. Doesn't that make a world of difference when we're talking about 8-10 year contracts?

It's also a lower value than Trevor Story's deal. Granted, that may have occurred after they presented this "framework" to Devers. But is there any universe where we should be paying Devers less than Story?
It makes sense if Devers didn't take a step forward this year and remained a 130 OPS+ corner infielder with bad defense. There are a lot of guys who peak in their early 20s, especially defensively. But now with another year under his belt and better performance, the comps change for an extension.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Jan 13, 2021
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Olson is older and his deal was also largely seen as a hometown discount; he’s also a lesser known player. There’s a reason they chose him as a comp as opposed to, say, Manny Machado and Nolen Arenado, who had comparable fWAR to Raffy last year.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
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Jul 20, 2005
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Boston, MA
Olson is older and his deal was also largely seen as a hometown discount; he’s also a lesser known player. There’s a reason they chose him as a comp as opposed to, say, Manny Machado and Nolen Arenado, who had comparable fWAR to Raffy last year.
Yes, the reason was defense. Arenado and Machado are great defenders and not a risk to move off their positions any time soon. Raffy's defensive improvement this year has closed the gap, but that offer was made before that happened.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Yeah, I get that. But it’s really hard to see how a “hey we think you suck at defense” argument is a winner in convincing the guy to stick around for the rest of his career. The organization may be right here, but it sounds like they approached this the wrong way, and offending your players with your contract offers isn’t ideal, especially if you do want to keep them. It sort of seems like a pattern in how the Sox approach their own free agents.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Mar 11, 2007
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Yeah, I get that. But it’s really hard to see how a “hey we think you suck at defense” argument is a winner in convincing the guy to stick around for the rest of his career. The organization may be right here, but it sounds like they approached this the wrong way, and offending your players with your contract offers isn’t ideal, especially if you do want to keep them. It sort of seems like a pattern in how the Sox approach their own free agents.
I don't know.... Is it possible that the team said, " Hey, you're basically worth Matt Olsen right now and he's what that's worth.... because your defense is pretty atrocious. Work on it and we'll get back together"?