Bill Belichick and his decision making: Have we learned anything?

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
24,989
Newton
The end of season statement was new, but the meeting with Kraft is an annual thing.
Yes, which suggests to me that Bill, Bob and Jonathan likely had some discussion about the importance of making sure their intentions were clear this offseason to fans and the media: "we are going to hire an offensive coordinator." Which is fair from the Krafts' perspective and suggests Bill isn't some stubborn mule when it comes to that sort of thing.
 

8slim

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
21,678
Unreal America
I don't think he made the right choice but you can see the plan and the decision making. He had two people who he thought were excellent coaches. They had both been head coaches as well as handling other position groups etc. in the past. He thought, incorrectly it turns out, that these two "excellent" coaches could make the transition. He was wrong but I don't think that it's as easy as stating that it doesn't make sense when you can walk the process with him.

Sometimes it doesn't work out. Was it a risk? Yes. Did it fail? Undoubtedly. But that doesn't mean that Bill had gone away from his process here.
Bill has long valued familiarity and continuity, among other things. That's why he brought in so many ex-Giants players early in his tenure here. It's why we went back to McDaniels and BOB. And I'm 100% convinced that's a huge part of why he tried making Patricia and Judge the OCs.

Like you said, it was a flaming disaster than was entirely predictable. But I do understand what he was going for.
 

8slim

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
21,678
Unreal America
Yes, which suggests to me that Bill, Bob and Jonathan likely had some discussion about the importance of making sure their intentions were clear this offseason to fans and the media: "we are going to hire an offensive coordinator." Which is fair from the Krafts' perspective and suggests Bill isn't some stubborn mule when it comes to that sort of thing.
Agree, I don't think Bill needed to be pushed to make the changes that he is making. I do think that doing it so publicly was where Kraft "stepped in". That was unprecedented in Bill's tenure here, and I'm sure it was because Kraft told him that we need to win back the trust of the fanbase pronto.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
9,581
around the way
Agree, I don't think Bill needed to be pushed to make the changes that he is making. I do think that doing it so publicly was where Kraft "stepped in". That was unprecedented in Bill's tenure here, and I'm sure it was because Kraft told him that we need to win back the trust of the fanbase pronto.
This makes a lot of sense. Kraft has always been decent at managing public perception, and it has always been a relative weak point for BFB. "Let's get the message out and give people some hope here" seems like something that he would do. I doubt that the weekly TV show and the Belistrator was the latter's idea. But that type of stuff is great for engagement and brand, as is this whole "we're hiring an experienced OC global search" press push.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
50,863
Well, all of the facts line up with my hypothesis. What is yours?

The idea that Belichick decided it was better to roll the dice and move two of his trusted coaches into a new position rather than bring an outsider in to fill McDaniels' void isn't exactly a revolutionary concept. To me, it is by far the most logical rationale for doing what he did.
So, to be clear, your take is he should have brought in someone he "doesn't trust"?
 

8slim

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
21,678
Unreal America
This makes a lot of sense. Kraft has always been decent at managing public perception, and it has always been a relative weak point for BFB. "Let's get the message out and give people some hope here" seems like something that he would do. I doubt that the weekly TV show and the Belistrator was the latter's idea. But that type of stuff is great for engagement and brand, as is this whole "we're hiring an experienced OC global search" press push.
And to make the obvious comparison, look at what it did to diffuse fan discontent vs. how the Sox have handled things. It's not a perfect comparison, for sure. But instead of weeks dragging by while Pats fans lamented the ineptitude of the season, a couple days after the last game the Pats is essence tell the fans "We know this was awful, our bad, we're gonna fix it, hang in there". And here we are, people are generally optimistic for next season rather than completing week 4 of yelling into the void.

Sometimes treating your fanbase as intelligent adults yields good outcomes.
 

Bowhemian

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2015
4,964
Bow, NH
And since this thread got started by asking how to define "arrogance," I'll only submit that the perception of arrogance comes from BB making decisions that go against the grain of what seems to be universally accepted wisdom or actions. When BB takes an injured CB from a DIII school in the 2nd round when he was projected to go in the 7th, that's perceived as arrogance in the sense that he knows better than everyone else. When the rest of the NFL would never make a move to put guys like Judge or Patricia in a position to run an offense, it's perceived that BB believes he can do something that no other coach in the NFL would or could do.

It aligns with being one of 3 teams that don't subscribe to a national scouting service, being the only coach who won't lend his name to a video game, and being the one coach who skips the annual coach's meeting photo. We think it's cute. The rest of the NFL observing universe thinks it's him being an absolute arrogant prick.
No, that is known as taking a risk on a player that you think can improve your team. I don't know him personally, but my opinion is that the moves he makes are the moves he thinks will improve the team. I highly doubt that he gives a shit one way or another what other teams/coaches think.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
33,607
Hingham, MA
And to make the obvious comparison, look at what it did to diffuse fan discontent vs. how the Sox have handled things. It's not a perfect comparison, for sure. But instead of weeks dragging by while Pats fans lamented the ineptitude of the season, a couple days after the last game the Pats is essence tell the fans "We know this was awful, our bad, we're gonna fix it, hang in there". And here we are, people are generally optimistic for next season rather than completing week 4 of yelling into the void.

Sometimes treating your fanbase as intelligent adults yields good outcomes.
That, and they delivered on it within a week. They didn't let it drag out for 2 months and have things not go their way and then try to explain it away.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
10,340
I'm going to push back on this slightly. I think one thing we're seeing right now is just how stale Bill's coaching network is. He's been relying on retreads and people he trusts - including his kids and former players - rather than bringing in different points of view or new concepts. It's really hard to innovate when you have a closed off feedback loop, and I don't think that he still really "believes" in these things when he doesn't try to refresh the brain drain that the franchise has been experienced for years with new blood.

I don't know if that can be chalked up to "arrogance" or whatever but he's clearly being/has been very conservative with his recent hires and I don't think that kind of attitude will result in future innovation. Doing that requires taking risks.

Also, it's frustrating that he keeps his coaching staff so small, which decreases the likelihood that new voices can join the staff and introduce new ideas.
his coaching tree is so stale that it keeps getting hired away after almost every season
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,368
Boston
No, that is known as taking a risk on a player that you think can improve your team. I don't know him personally, but my opinion is that the moves he makes are the moves he thinks will improve the team. I highly doubt that he gives a shit one way or another what other teams/coaches think.
I'm just telling you this is how the rest of the football-observing universe perceives it. There's a bit of jealousy involved here as well; most NFL head coaches have to sing for their supper and defer to a GM and praise whatever his team chooses; BB can literally do whatever he wants with the draft without fear of professional repercussion, an almost certain singularity in the NFL.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,368
Boston
So, to be clear, your take is he should have brought in someone he "doesn't trust"?
I don't have a take in terms of what he should have done, I'm just saying Patricia and Judge are in BB's circle of trust, and rolling the dice with them trumped going outside his circle to find someone who has experience running an offense. I'll have to look at the list of potential OCs they brought in before they hired BOB, but I doubt they wanted anyone but him.

People who know the inner workings of Foxboro is the most important thing in BB's world at this point in his career. You won't convince me otherwise.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
10,340
Bill has long valued familiarity and continuity, among other things. That's why he brought in so many ex-Giants players early in his tenure here. It's why we went back to McDaniels and BOB. And I'm 100% convinced that's a huge part of why he tried making Patricia and Judge the OCs.

Like you said, it was a flaming disaster than was entirely predictable. But I do understand what he was going for.
One question.. MP and Judge were both head coaches.. is it fair to assume that during that time that they’d both coach some offense just a little bit?
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
50,863
How about bringing someone who has demonstrated recent competence? Just hiring yes men or only people he has worked with before isn’t the only option.
Who was available at that point? It was late in the game when Josh "raided" the staff. At that point the decisions are "go with someone I know" or "bring in someone new to the organization, late in the game". They're both valid choices. The one he made didn't work and he rectified it.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
16,391
And since this thread got started by asking how to define "arrogance," I'll only submit that the perception of arrogance comes from BB making decisions that go against the grain of what seems to be universally accepted wisdom or actions. When BB takes an injured CB from a DIII school in the 2nd round when he was projected to go in the 7th, that's perceived as arrogance in the sense that he knows better than everyone else. When the rest of the NFL would never make a move to put guys like Judge or Patricia in a position to run an offense, it's perceived that BB believes he can do something that no other coach in the NFL would or could do.

It aligns with being one of 3 teams that don't subscribe to a national scouting service, being the only coach who won't lend his name to a video game, and being the one coach who skips the annual coach's meeting photo. We think it's cute. The rest of the NFL observing universe thinks it's him being an absolute arrogant prick.
What is it called when Belichick signs an undrafted free agent CB from West Alabama and inserts him as a rookie into a goal line situation in the waning minutes of the Super Bowl? And why would other NFL coaches or GMs care if Belichick lends his face to a video game or subscribes to a particular scouting service?

BTW, I've seen zero evidence that the scouting service stuff is correct. There is this entry below where Jonathan Kraft discusses their own proprietary scouting systems and how they compare their judgments with those from the national services:

https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/294780/patriots-take-pride-in-their-use-of-analytics-to-help-scouting

One question.. MP and Judge were both head coaches.. is it fair to assume that during that time that they’d both coach some offense just a little bit?
This point gets brought up and keeps getting ignored. I recall Belichick discussing his days with the Giants in the "A Football Life" segment in the old Giants Stadium while preparing to face the Jets. He mentioned how he and Tom Coughlin would bounce the offensive and defensive game plans with each other before presenting them to Parcells. There were also segments when Belichick is meeting with his assistants while discussing the offense.

The most likely scenario is that BB misjudged the capabilities of Judge and Patricia to adapt to their new responsibilities. It was a bad decision that he quickly corrected, much like the Bruins management realized they made a mistake when they hired Dave Lewis a number of years ago. Or the Red Sox with Valentine. It hardly comes close to the worst coaching decision in the history of the league or the team.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
40,947
Melrose, MA
Bill has long valued familiarity and continuity, among other things. That's why he brought in so many ex-Giants players early in his tenure here. It's why we went back to McDaniels and BOB. And I'm 100% convinced that's a huge part of why he tried making Patricia and Judge the OCs.

Like you said, it was a flaming disaster than was entirely predictable. But I do understand what he was going for.
That doesn't entirely square with a big revamp of the offensive system.

Edit:

This podcast, with Andrew Callahan, one of the writers of the big Herald story, was excellent and well worth a listen.

https://www.theringer.com/2023/1/29/23576866/jaylen-brown-boston-celtics-new-england-patriots-dysfunction
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
21,087
How great of a HC must BB be if he managed to take this team with incompetent offensive coaches and iffy personnel to an 8 win record?
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
44,220
Hartford, CT
I don't have a take in terms of what he should have done, I'm just saying Patricia and Judge are in BB's circle of trust, and rolling the dice with them trumped going outside his circle to find someone who has experience running an offense. I'll have to look at the list of potential OCs they brought in before they hired BOB, but I doubt they wanted anyone but him.

People who know the inner workings of Foxboro is the most important thing in BB's world at this point in his career. You won't convince me otherwise.
Well, uh, what are we doing here?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Book Jailer
Dope
May 20, 2003
34,036
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Mild rant incoming:

Respectfully to all: Nothing that BB did with the coaching staff last offseason or this one should be of any surprise to anyone who has paid the slightest bit of attention to the Patriots over the past 22 years.

He is completely unafraid to take risks if he thinks it will benefit the team. For years we heard the local scribes second guess and belittle him because he traded Drew Bledsoe within the division. He played Troy Brown and Edelman at cornerback. He has done unconventional things throughout his coaching career because if there's one thing we've learned over time is that he does not give one shit about conventional wisdom.

He is not perfect and he is the first to say so. He has made mistakes before; his drafting record has been discussed ad nauseum and he's played guys out of their best positions at times. But he also has no problem in admitting a sunk cost and making changes to rectify his own mistakes too. He released Patrick Chung after Chung played poorly as a CB, only to figure out he was best as a box safety and bring him back. Kyle Arrington was a disaster as a sideline cornerback and pretty damn good as a slot one.

He decided last summer that given the large scale loss of coaching personnel with McDaniels' departure, that he wanted to bring in guys already familiar with his system, coaching style, and personality. Other teams might have gotten praise for getting two guys with head coaching experience on the staff; Dan Quinn of all people has gotten praise as a DC despite failing out as a head coach in SPECTACULAR fashion. As others have noted it's reasonable to think both Patricia and Judge gained offensive experience as head coaches. Patricia at least has the reputation of being a very smart guy.

OK. It didn't work. Obviously.

So what does BB do? Make changes. He's not going to double down on his clear mistakes just because he doesn't want to admit the problems. All this talk about arrogance is entirely misguided; he simply does not give one shit about the conventional wisdom. If he did he never would have draft Kyle Dugger from a school no one had ever heard about.

He's not perfect and no one should ever argue that he was. What I am arguing is that he is going about fixing the issues in exactly the way we should expect given what he's done in the past. Just because he won't tell the media a damn thing doesn't mean he's unaware of the issues.

Ye cannae have it both ways: you can't praise him for thinking outside the box to, say, keep Brady as a starter in 2001 or to play Western Alabama UDFA Malcolm Butler in a every down role in the Super Bowl because Arrington was getting torched, while simultaneously condemning him for not going by the book when hiring coordinators last summer. It simply doesn't work that way.
 

ManicCompression

Member
SoSH Member
May 14, 2015
917
his coaching tree is so stale that it keeps getting hired away after almost every season
I'm not sure what your point is. There's been attrition in his staff and he hasn't replaced it with new blood. There are obviously benefits to hiring/promoting internally and not hiring as much from the outside, but new and different perspectives is not one that you would expect.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,368
Boston
"What is it called when Belichick signs an undrafted free agent CB from West Alabama and inserts him as a rookie into a goal line situation in the waning minutes of the Super Bowl? And why would other NFL coaches or GMs care if Belichick lends his face to a video game or subscribes to a particular scouting service?"


It's genius if it works out, he's arrogant if it doesn't. Look, I don't make up the rules of public perception. Some of you sound incredibly naive when you say, "I don't understand why people think BB is arrogant." Or perhaps you only consume Boston media. It's understandable, I guess. But it's naive nonetheless. As to video games or coaches' photos, I don't know how anyone thinks about it, but the media will always notice when BB does something iconoclastic. He gets away with a disdain for the propriety of the position he's in, especially with his required media dealings.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Book Jailer
Dope
May 20, 2003
34,036
Deep inside Muppet Labs
It's genius if it works out, he's arrogant if it doesn't. Look, I don't make up the rules of public perception. Some of you sound incredibly naive when you say, "I don't understand why people think BB is arrogant." Or perhaps you only consume Boston media. It's understandable, I guess. But it's naive nonetheless. As to video games or coaches' photos, I don't know how anyone thinks about it, but the media will always notice when BB does something iconoclastic.
Why should anyone give a ripe shit about what the media (and that's what it is, media perception that they dole out to the fans) is? I understand why the media call him arrogant, I just don't give a damn about their opinion.

Who gives a shit? Does it work or not? If it doesn't work, does he try to fix it? Does the fix work?

I'm old enough to remember Ron Borges ripping Belichick every single day, every single column, for YEARS because Belichick benched and then traded noted Ron Borges source Drew Bledsoe. Ben Volin is a legitimately stupid man, I wouldn't trust him to change a car tire without amputating a limb. Michael Felger is a blow dried misanthropist fear-monger with Mazz as his personal Goebbels.

Why on earth should anyone care what the media's perception of him is? Do you think other fans will suddenly like the Pats and their fans if they get some grinning asshole up there at the coaches' podium? You think we really want Mike McDaniel and his rad drip up there, getting media applause while he tries to justify having his crappy 3rd string QB throw 45 times in a close playoff game in cold conditions like he did this year?

I mean really. They had an 8-9 season where they got to play a win and they're in game and it was legitimately the worst season they've ever had under BB and stop just for a minute and think about how privileged yet true that statement really is.
 
Last edited:
Feb 19, 2015
4,930
How about bringing someone who has demonstrated recent competence? Just hiring yes men or only people he has worked with before isn’t the only option.
Do you have any evidence that Patricia and Judge are yes men? I would think the only evidence we have is to the contrary, since Belichick publicly stated on video that he wants his coaches to speak up and speak out. It seems reasonable to think that the fact that he brought them back might be evidence that they are not yes men. (Flimsy evidence, but more evidence than just a wild accusation.)
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Book Jailer
Dope
May 20, 2003
34,036
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Do you have any evidence that Patricia and Judge are yes men? I would think the only evidence we have is to the contrary, since Belichick publicly stated on video that he wants his coaches to speak up and speak out. It seems reasonable to think that the fact that he brought them back might be evidence that they are not yes men. (Flimsy evidence, but more evidence than just a wild accusation.)
Every single assistant coach interviewed has always said that their input and pushback is valued and encouraged and that BB listens to them more often than not.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
16,391
"What is it called when Belichick signs an undrafted free agent CB from West Alabama and inserts him as a rookie into a goal line situation in the waning minutes of the Super Bowl? And why would other NFL coaches or GMs care if Belichick lends his face to a video game or subscribes to a particular scouting service?"


It's genius if it works out, he's arrogant if it doesn't. Look, I don't make up the rules of public perception. Some of you sound incredibly naive when you say, "I don't understand why people think BB is arrogant." Or perhaps you only consume Boston media. It's understandable, I guess. But it's naive nonetheless. As to video games or coaches' photos, I don't know how anyone thinks about it, but the media will always notice when BB does something iconoclastic. He gets away with a disdain for the propriety of the position he's in, especially with his required media dealings.
This thread was never about the media “narrative” of “hubris and arrogance”. It’s fine if you want to discuss that topic, but it is of zero interest to me. The topic was around Belichick’s decision making, which you criticized and when challenged you moved the goalposts again and brought up the media perception. Would have been better if you offered a cite for the scouting service subscription claims instead.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,368
Boston
This thread was never about the media “narrative” of “hubris and arrogance”. It’s fine if you want to discuss that topic, but it is of zero interest to me. The topic was around Belichick’s decision making, which you criticized and when challenged you moved the goalposts again and brought up the media perception. Would have been better if you offered a cite for the scouting service subscription claims instead.
The very first post in this thread that got forked is, "Yes it was pure arrogance to think that situation would work." The projection of his motivations in his decision making process, for better or worse, is woven into this thread. Regardless of the thread title, it's a discussion about BB's decision-making and the perception of that.

As to SJH's, "who gives a shit?" Well, I suppose no one if you just live on this forum and interact with only Pats fans. But BB doesn't exist in a Boston bubble, he's the most high-profile coach in the league and coaches my favorite team, so the perception of him matters to me.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Book Jailer
Dope
May 20, 2003
34,036
Deep inside Muppet Labs
The very first post in this thread that got forked is, "Yes it was pure arrogance to think that situation would work." The projection of his motivations in his decision making process, for better or worse, are intrinsically linked in this thread. Regardless of the thread title, it's a discussion about BB's decision-making and the perception of that.

As to SJH's, "who gives a shit?" Well, I suppose no one if you just live on this forum and interact with only Pats fans. But BB doesn't exist in a Boston bubble, he's the most high-profile coach in the league and coaches my favorite team, so the perception of him matters to me.
Respectfully: that sounds like a you problem.

It has nothing to do with the actual success on the field.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
28,490
Why should anyone give a ripe shit about what the media (and that's what it is, media perception that they dole out to the fans) is? I understand why the media call him arrogant, I just don't give a damn about their opinion.

Who gives a shit? Does it work or not? If it doesn't work, does he try to fix it? Does the fix work?

I'm old enough to remember Ron Borges ripping Belichick every single day, every single column, for YEARS because Belichick benched and then traded noted Ron Borges source Drew Bledsoe. Ben Volin is a legitimately stupid man, I wouldn't trust him to change a car tire without amputating a limb. Michael Felger is a blow dried misanthropist fear-monger with Mazz as his personal Goebbels.

Why on earth should anyone care what the media's perception of him is? Do you think other fans will suddenly like the Pats and their fans if they get some grinning asshole up there at the coaches' podium? You think we really want Mike McDaniel and his rad drip up there, getting media applause while he tries to justify having his crappy 3rd string QB throw 45 times in a close playoff game in cold conditions like he did this year?

I mean really. They had an 8-9 season where they got to play a win and they're in game and it was legitimately the worst season they've ever had under BB and stop just for a minute and think about how privileged yet true that statement really is.
Strong rant, Dennis Miller would be inspired. I agree with most points but would say 2000 and 2020 were worse.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Book Jailer
Dope
May 20, 2003
34,036
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Strong rant, Dennis Miller would be inspired. I agree with most points but would say 2000 and 2020 were worse.
Fair points. 2000 was a total rebuild from the mess Pete Carroll left behind and 2020 was a mess due to Covid opt-outs and Cam's shoulder and the crazy schedule (the farce leading into the KC game in particular). With so many unusual factors I left it out of my mental accounting.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,153
New York City
Do you have any evidence that Patricia and Judge are yes men? I would think the only evidence we have is to the contrary, since Belichick publicly stated on video that he wants his coaches to speak up and speak out. It seems reasonable to think that the fact that he brought them back might be evidence that they are not yes men. (Flimsy evidence, but more evidence than just a wild accusation.)
This has always struck me as odd-people have long assumed that BB wants yes men, but we have absolutely no reason to think that staff doesn't say "uh no Bill don't waste a pick on Jordan Richards" or "maybe the playoffs aren't the time to test if eric alexander should start at linebacker Bill" or even "are you sure you want Patricia coaching Jones, why not just get a random guy like Adam Gaze."

The fact that BB is an assertive person who makes the ultimate decisions doesn't mean he only promotes yes men. Frankly I'd love to tbe the scout who said N'keal Harry, I'm N'knot seeing it, bad feet and can't beat press coverage.--the person who voiced that opinion has proven himself to be of value.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
27,310
The very first post in this thread that got forked is, "Yes it was pure arrogance to think that situation would work." The projection of his motivations in his decision making process, for better or worse, is woven into this thread. Regardless of the thread title, it's a discussion about BB's decision-making and the perception of that.

As to SJH's, "who gives a shit?" Well, I suppose no one if you just live on this forum and interact with only Pats fans. But BB doesn't exist in a Boston bubble, he's the most high-profile coach in the league and coaches my favorite team, so the perception of him matters to me.
Friends who are not Patriots fans: "Your coach is a lying cheating asshole. None of his rings were validly earned."
Me: "Yes. You're right."
The Conversation: Over.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
39,495
"What is it called when Belichick signs an undrafted free agent CB from West Alabama and inserts him as a rookie into a goal line situation in the waning minutes of the Super Bowl? And why would other NFL coaches or GMs care if Belichick lends his face to a video game or subscribes to a particular scouting service?"


It's genius if it works out, he's arrogant if it doesn't. Look, I don't make up the rules of public perception. Some of you sound incredibly naive when you say, "I don't understand why people think BB is arrogant." Or perhaps you only consume Boston media. It's understandable, I guess. But it's naive nonetheless. As to video games or coaches' photos, I don't know how anyone thinks about it, but the media will always notice when BB does something iconoclastic. He gets away with a disdain for the propriety of the position he's in, especially with his required media dealings.
I don't think anybody questions why some people think BB is arrogant.

The question, in my mind, of this thread is "Is BB arrogant?"

Personally, and I'm sure most here, and BB himself, could care less if folks think he's arrogant. The push back is when people say he's arrogant, because there is simply no evidence except for the way he treats the media that BB is arrogant in how he runs a football team. He runs a team the way he feels will get the best results. Sometimes these decisions are wrong (Patricia, benching Malcolm, deferring against the Jets in '15 and costing the Pats HFA), but they aren't borne out of arrogance. They're just wrong.

On the flip side, those same out of the box decisions are also what led to Tom Brady being the QB of this team in 2001 and thereafter, Malcolm making that pick in a SB, and on and on and on and on, and well, the 8 rings he wears on his hands.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
10,340
I'm not sure what your point is. There's been attrition in his staff and he hasn't replaced it with new blood. There are obviously benefits to hiring/promoting internally and not hiring as much from the outside, but new and different perspectives is not one that you would expect.
My point is that people claiming that BB only hires the same assistants etc etc.. part of the reason he has to keep hiring is because people keep hiring his coaching staff away.. so he’s either doing something right or other people have the same stale ideas he does.
Perhaps he is a tad stale when it comes to the OC and DC.. but are those guys bringing in new people with them typically? It’s not like the coaching staff below the main dudes is stable.. seems like the staff is basically constantly turning over.
 

ManicCompression

Member
SoSH Member
May 14, 2015
917
My point is that people claiming that BB only hires the same assistants etc etc.. part of the reason he has to keep hiring is because people keep hiring his coaching staff away.. so he’s either doing something right or other people have the same stale ideas he does.
Perhaps he is a tad stale when it comes to the OC and DC.. but are those guys bringing in new people with them typically? It’s not like the coaching staff below the main dudes is stable.. seems like the staff is basically constantly turning over.
I don't disagree that people keep getting hired away, but the backfill in recent years leaves something to be desired, and also the size of the staff is not that big. Compare the Patriots to the 49ers:
https://www.patriots.com/team/coaches-roster/
https://www.49ers.com/team/coaches-roster/

Outside of BB the Patriots have 17 coaches. Outside of KS, the 49ers have 25 coaches. Of those 17, 2 are his kids and 2 are former players who never played for anyone else (Troy Brown, Jerod Mayo). They may all be terrifically smart and talented, but if you had to guess which team was trying to be more innovative and source ideas from many different places, which team would you pick? The Chiefs have about 26 coaches on their staff. The Eagles 23. And you'll see these teams routinely pick up ex-coaches with a lot of experience with other teams (Steve Spagnuolo, Anthony Lynn) and put them into supporting roles. Is that the only way to do it? No, the steelers have 17 coaches, too, but if we're talking about the teams that are literally changing the league with roster construction and offensive concepts, those teams would be at the top of the list.

This isn't an historic issue with BB - it's just the last few years, it feels like they're running out of a bench and that's caused a brain drain across the organization. Again, I'm not saying it's arrogant or even that these coaches are incapable of doing their jobs, I just think any org would suffer if a lot of people leave.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,153
New York City
I don't disagree that people keep getting hired away, but the backfill in recent years leaves something to be desired, and also the size of the staff is not that big. Compare the Patriots to the 49ers:
https://www.patriots.com/team/coaches-roster/
https://www.49ers.com/team/coaches-roster/

Outside of BB the Patriots have 17 coaches. Outside of KS, the 49ers have 25 coaches. Of those 17, 2 are his kids and 2 are former players who never played for anyone else (Troy Brown, Jerod Mayo). They may all be terrifically smart and talented, but if you had to guess which team was trying to be more innovative and source ideas from many different places, which team would you pick? The Chiefs have about 26 coaches on their staff. The Eagles 23. And you'll see these teams routinely pick up ex-coaches with a lot of experience with other teams (Steve Spagnuolo, Anthony Lynn) and put them into supporting roles. Is that the only way to do it? No, the steelers have 17 coaches, too, but if we're talking about the teams that are literally changing the league with roster construction and offensive concepts, those teams would be at the top of the list.

This isn't an historic issue with BB - it's just the last few years, it feels like they're running out of a bench and that's caused a brain drain across the organization. Again, I'm not saying it's arrogant or even that these coaches are incapable of doing their jobs, I just think any org would suffer if a lot of people leave.
It is a historic issue; the Pats have consistently had one of the smaller coaching staffs in the league and a primarily home grown one (or in early years least one consisting of people who’s worked with BB before). It just worked well for years and with a younger Bradyless not super talented team isn’t working as well.
 

tbb345

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
7,048
He decided last summer that given the large scale loss of coaching personnel with McDaniels' departure, that he wanted to bring in guys already familiar with his system, coaching style, and personality. Other teams might have gotten praise for getting two guys with head coaching experience on the staff; Dan Quinn of all people has gotten praise as a DC despite failing out as a head coach in SPECTACULAR fashion. As others have noted it's reasonable to think both Patricia and Judge gained offensive experience as head coaches. Patricia at least has the reputation of being a very smart guy.
The Quinn comparison doesn’t really apply here. Quinn was a really good DC before his time as a HC. It’s more analogous to bringing back Romeo as a DC after his head coaching failures than anything to do with Patricia and Judge (neither of whom have much experience coaching offensive football)
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
40,947
Melrose, MA
It is a historic issue; the Pats have consistently had one of the smaller coaching staffs in the league and a primarily home grown one (or in early years least one consisting of people who’s worked with BB before). It just worked well for years and with a younger Bradyless not super talented team isn’t working as well.
The brain drain issue is one where the Pats really would have been better served by a larger staff.

When Josh McD left and took coaches with him, and was not replaced by an experienced OC, the obviously ideal thing to have done would have been to not bring in non-offensive coaches to do a major revamp of the offense. Maybe if they had a bigger offensive staff they could have gove for continuity over drastic change to a system that not even BB and the coordinators had experience with.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
10,945
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
There's no feasible defense to the decision to bring Patricia and Judge in to be in charge of the offense. None. "Familiarity with the system"? They changed the system! To Bill's credit, he recognized the obvious and already course corrected, but it was a stupid then and in hindsight even stupider. I don't know why there are people still trying to spin it as a move that made any sense. It didn't, it failed as spectacularly as most predicted it would when announced, that failure has been admitted to by all parties involved and now the experiment has been completely trashed.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
16,391
There's no feasible defense to the decision to bring Patricia and Judge in to be in charge of the offense. None. "Familiarity with the system"? They changed the system! To Bill's credit, he recognized the obvious and already course corrected, but it was a stupid then and in hindsight even stupider. I don't know why there are people still trying to spin it as a move that made any sense. It didn't, it failed as spectacularly as most predicted it would when announced, that failure has been admitted to by all parties involved and now the experiment has been completely trashed.
I think far more people on this thread are explaining the thought process behind Belichick's decision making rather than defending the actual decision. You may disagree with the decision itself and the reasons behind it (nearly all of us do), but there was a thought process that went well beyond "I just want to save money and hire my friends to run the offense".

As for the diversity of opinion, there are other posters that have tried to convince me that Agholor and Smith are decent players by NFL standards.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
10,945
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
I think far more people on this thread are explaining the thought process behind Belichick's decision making rather than defending the actual decision. You may disagree with the decision itself and the reasons behind it (nearly all of us do), but there was a thought process that went well beyond "I just want to save money and hire my friends to run the offense".

As for the diversity of opinion, there are other posters that have tried to convince me that Agholor and Smith are decent players by NFL standards.
Obviously there was a thought process behind it, just a way more flawed one than some are portraying it as. It was an extremely unconventional move than has seldom been replicated in the history of the sport, at the time I guess you could approach it with some hope while giving Bill the benefit of the doubt, but in my mind it has now been made clear why pretty much no one approaches coaching in that manner. To insist, in January 2023, it actually wasn't that unorthodox of a move and that people bring back failed HCs all the time without considering they were coming in to coach a side of the ball they had no meaningful experience in is bonkers to me.
 

PedrosRedGlove

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 5, 2005
659
I'm just telling you this is how the rest of the football-observing universe perceives it. There's a bit of jealousy involved here as well; most NFL head coaches have to sing for their supper and defer to a GM and praise whatever his team chooses; BB can literally do whatever he wants with the draft without fear of professional repercussion, an almost certain singularity in the NFL.
I don't have a take in terms of what he should have done, I'm just saying Patricia and Judge are in BB's circle of trust, and rolling the dice with them trumped going outside his circle to find someone who has experience running an offense. I'll have to look at the list of potential OCs they brought in before they hired BOB, but I doubt they wanted anyone but him.

People who know the inner workings of Foxboro is the most important thing in BB's world at this point in his career. You won't convince me otherwise.
Who was available at that point? It was late in the game when Josh "raided" the staff. At that point the decisions are "go with someone I know" or "bring in someone new to the organization, late in the game". They're both valid choices. The one he made didn't work and he rectified it.
No offense, Salva, but this isn't how "the rest of the football-observing universe" sees it. The FOB narrative you're trying to advocate is a straight Felgerism, and I'm someone who actually enjoys listening to the clowns for entertainment.

The Friend of Bill stuff ignores the fact that the NFL coaching community is a very small group of people, a large percentage of the league can be labeled "FOB" through one connection or another. If we just ballpark 20 coaches per staff, that's 640 humans. Now, filter by how many are actually capable of being a competent NFL OC... 20? 30? 50? And then how many of them were jobless or available when Bill had to start rebuilding the offensive staff?

The argument ignores the actual available talent pool because once you look at it you realize Patricia and Judge might have been Best Available fit at the time. The only actual outsider name anyone had to add to the OC hire discussion last year was Adam Gase. Which is funny because he's connected to the Belichick coaching tree, working under McDaniels in Denver and Saban at LSU and has also been out of the league since 2020, currently OCing a high school team in his hometown.

I think Bill found the best band aid he could, but losing Josh AND letting him poach most of the staff was a gaping wound.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,153
New York City
Obviously there was a thought process behind it, just a way more flawed one than some are portraying it as. It was an extremely unconventional move than has seldom been replicated in the history of the sport, at the time I guess you could approach it with some hope while giving Bill the benefit of the doubt, but in my mind it has now been made clear why pretty much no one approaches coaching in that manner. To insist, in January 2023, it actually wasn't that unorthodox of a move and that people bring back failed HCs all the time without considering they were coming in to coach a side of the ball they had no meaningful experience in is bonkers to me.
No one is saying it wasn’t unorthodox or a mistake, we’re just trying to figure out what basically the greatest kind in football history was thinking and seeing what we can learn from it instead of assuming we’re smarter than BB

Edit: not sure a lot of folks here have ever managed anyone If theydon’t think there are good reasons BB would rather have a 17 person staff to manage than a 27 person staff. And is far from clear to me that youll get more creativity from a 27 person staff than a 17 person -as groups get larger it also gets trickier to make sure voices get here, ideas get shared, groupthink doesn’t prevail etc
 
Last edited:

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
21,087
Even Einstein made mistakes. Can anyone here name even one brilliant person who has never goofed? It happens. Bill screwed up, and from what we seem to know now, tried to deal with it pretty early on, but there was only so much he could do. Then within like a week of the season being over, fixed it.
 

ManicCompression

Member
SoSH Member
May 14, 2015
917
It is a historic issue; the Pats have consistently had one of the smaller coaching staffs in the league and a primarily home grown one (or in early years least one consisting of people who’s worked with BB before). It just worked well for years and with a younger Bradyless not super talented team isn’t working as well.
Yeah, it's just one of those common sense things: when the organization is doing well, you want as little change as possible to continue ride. When you hit hard times, you need to adapt and evolve.
 

Trlicek's Whip

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 8, 2009
5,533
New York City
The rest of the NFL observing universe thinks it's him being an absolute arrogant prick.
This has big "they hate their coach" energy.

When our faces are pressed up against the glass to the inner workings of a sports org we live and die with, all we have is our assumptions and projections which are always based on our fan satisfaction or dissatisfaction with how the team did. Winter threads when we suck are always like this.

At least it's inspired a good drinking game: drink whenever someone says "arrogance" would have me blackout drunk a quarter page into the thread. :)
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
10,945
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
No one is saying it wasn’t unorthodox or a mistake, we’re just trying to figure out what basically the greatest kind in football history was thinking and seeing what we can learn from it instead of assuming we’re smarter than BB

Edit: not sure a lot of folks here have ever managed anyone If theydon’t think there are good reasons BB would rather have a 17 person staff to manage than a 27 person staff. And is far from clear to me that youll get more creativity from a 27 person staff than a 17 person -as groups get larger it also gets trickier to make sure voices get here, ideas get shared, groupthink doesn’t prevail etc
To me, SJH's post was clearly trying to portray it as not really all that unorthodox of a decision, and not only that, a move that would have been readily understood and praised had it been made by another team. I just can't grasp that line of thinking.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
50,863
The rest of the NFL observing universe thinks it's him being an absolute arrogant prick.
Why do we care what fans of other NFL teams think at all?

We've heard players on other teams like BB, want to play for him, etc. Fans aren't rational and I could not care less if some Jets or Chargers fans dislike BB.