Big Papi not a Fan of Valentine's Day (or Month or Year)

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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David Ortiz has a new book coming out (shocking) and he's none too kind to Bobby Valentine. Sports Illustrated ran an excerpt that is making the rounds today. Take a look.

The most interesting thing is that he said that LL was literally the only person in the entire organization that wanted Valentine. And by the middle of the season, everyone from top to bottom knew that this wasn't going to work.
 

rembrat

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It's cool to know why Valentine ripped into Mike Aviles like that. What a fucking idiot.
 

drbretto

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I had half-thought that most of the Valentine hate was prejudicial or exaggerated, but I'm on board now.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I had half-thought that most of the Valentine hate was prejudicial or exaggerated, but I'm on board now.
Some of us were ranting about Valentine's incompetence from Day 1. No one wanted to hear it because it was watching a train wreck from assembly to endgame, but there was something inevitable about Valentine's destruction at work very, very early on.
 

shaggydog2000

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Some of us were ranting about Valentine's incompetence from Day 1. No one wanted to hear it because it was watching a train wreck from assembly to endgame, but there was something inevitable about Valentine's destruction at work very, very early on.
Except to the writers who thought he was a genius disciplinarian that was going to turn this team around! The man invented the wrap after all. And won in Japan.
 

rembrat

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Some of us were ranting about Valentine's incompetence from Day 1. No one wanted to hear it because it was watching a train wreck from assembly to endgame, but there was something inevitable about Valentine's destruction at work very, very early on.
I remember thinking all the changes Valentine was implementing during ST were moronic and self-serving so it's cool to read the team hated those things as well.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Except to the writers Nick Cafardo who thought he was a genius disciplinarian that was going to turn this team around! The man invented the wrap after all. And won in Japan.
Fixed that for you. I don't recall the whole of the beat contingent being sold on Valentine as the difference maker.
 

Ale Xander

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shaggydog2000

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Fixed that for you. I don't recall the whole of the beat contingent being sold on Valentine as the difference maker.
Yeah, his fan club basically began and ended with the dumbest person writing about sports in New England. I also have talked to people who worked for the city in Stamford, where he had his bar and was the Public Safety Director for a while. They gave the same report as everybody else; he was a self promoting ego driven know-it-all dipshit. He'd show up during emergencies and stand around telling people to do what they were already doing, then disappear once the cameras and crowds did.
 

AimingForYoko

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It feels so good when your hatred is not only shared & well placed but reinforced. What a friggin' circus clown. Thanks Larry, indeed.
 

Bergs

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I know this really puts me in the minority around here, but I love David Ortiz.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I remember thinking all the changes Valentine was implementing during ST were moronic and self-serving so it's cool to read the team hated those things as well.
Bill Lee's quote about Valentine in the spring of 2012: "I saw that guy on TV, and he's gotta be on 500 milligrams of SOMETHING."

And Bill Lee would know all about that.
 

Jim Ed Rice in HOF

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Reading some of the snippets the past day or so has relieved my concerns this would be as dreadful as the Tony Mazz Ortiz book. If they took the word "bro" out of that book it would have been a pamphlet and the style just got to me.
 

lexrageorge

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Good to see Ortiz come out swinging when it comes to recapping the BV era. However, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before the local mediots start to circle the wagons around Cafardo and lament Ortiz's comments.
 

AimingForYoko

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Good to see Ortiz come out swinging when it comes to recapping the BV era. However, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before the local mediots start to circle the wagons around Cafardo and lament Ortiz's comments.
Ah yes, I can hear it now, "something something bunch of children something something"
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I would be shocked if in next week's Baseball Notes (not this week, Nick isn't that industrious of a journalist*) he talks to Valentine about what Ortiz wrote. Valentine is shocked what Papi said and then sprinkles some things that mean old David Ortiz did in 2012 that made it hard for Bobby V. to get control of the team. And then Cafardo rubs Valentine's feet more by adding a list of "bad" things that Ortiz has done in the past to make it seem like Ortiz is no angel.

* Fun and true fact: the moto under the Cafardo crest is: "Cur enim differri usque hodie quod non eras?"
 

S. H. Frog

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I was pissed after 2011. What I liked about Valentine was the suffering he caused. I liked it from the first rumor of his hiring. You better hell yeah like beer, because this man is going to drive you to drink. In fact, he was worse than I could imagine. Long live the Punto trade.
 

Rough Carrigan

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I have always suspected that Larry the city councilman bribemaster Lucchino was largely responsible for both the Grady Little and Bobby Valentine firings, two dipshits at the opposite poles of under managing and over managing, respectively.
 

joe dokes

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I would be shocked if in next week's Baseball Notes (not this week, Nick isn't that industrious of a journalist*) he talks to Valentine about what Ortiz wrote. Valentine is shocked what Papi said and then sprinkles some things that mean old David Ortiz did in 2012 that made it hard for Bobby V. to get control of the team. And then Cafardo rubs Valentine's feet more by adding a list of "bad" things that Ortiz has done in the past to make it seem like Ortiz is no angel.

* Fun and true fact: the moto under the Cafardo crest is: "Cur enim differri usque hodie quod non eras?"
I have little doubt that Nicky and Bobby have already spoken. Deadline for Sunday column is probably today anyway.

Maybe I'm hyper-sensitive to Globe Saint Nick, but I thought this was a bit of a jab in Ortiz's direction today:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2017/05/11/mookie-betts-rounding-into-vintage-form/6Aac4QzekbyoqAD1FQhcSJ/story.html

With David Ortiz retired and writing books, Betts has become the centerpiece of the Red Sox offense — even if he is the leadoff guy.
 

dcmissle

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A real douchebag move was ripping Ortiz on the broadcast ("David quit") and then calling Ortiz after the fact to somehow make up for it. David correctly declined to take the call.

And I'm pleased Larry is gone.
 

lexrageorge

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I have always suspected that Larry the city councilman bribemaster Lucchino was largely responsible for both the Grady Little and Bobby Valentine firings hirings, two dipshits at the opposite poles of under managing and over managing, respectively.
I assume the correction above is what you meant?

To be fair, I don't really blame anyone for hiring Little. The new ownership did not officially take over the team until the middle of spring training, and their first order of business was to pretty much clean house, a necessary step that included the even more necessary firing of Joe Kerrigan. In retrospect, they probably should have kept Mike Cubbage, but they really seemed to want to get someone with more experience at the major league level, and there were not a whole of options at the time. Grady Little was Charlie Manuel's bench coach, and was pretty highly regarded at the time by Manuel and the Indians players.

Then it was left to Epstein to decide Little's fate, and Theo decided to keep him around at least one more season. John Henry wanted to fire Little middle of the 2003 season, but Theo supposedly talked him out of it.

But, yeah, it was time for Lucchino to go.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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John Henry wanted to fire Little middle of the 2003 season, but Theo supposedly talked him out of it.
Is that true? I never read that. I thought that the front office knew that Little completely botched the ALCS, completely lost the clubhouse and there was no way that he could return.

From what I remember reading, when Little was announced as manager in 2002, the clubhouse exploded in cheers.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Is that true? I never read that. I thought that the front office knew that Little completely botched the ALCS, completely lost the clubhouse and there was no way that he could return.

From what I remember reading, when Little was announced as manager in 2002, the clubhouse exploded in cheers.
I don't know if it was Theo that talked him out of it, but Henry was pretty candid in Seth Mnunkin's book (Feeding the Monster, page 208) that he had numerous conversations about firing Little midseason (didn't identify with whom he spoke, but presumably Lucchino and Epstein were among them). He was upset that Little usually ignored the volumes of data that baseball ops provided (scouting and stats) and managed by hunch. Henry said it dated back to Opening Day when the closer-by-committee experiment was botched due to "total lack of preparation". Henry was even reported to say that should the Red Sox win the World Series, he would say "I am going to fire Grady Little" instead of "I'm going to Disney World".

As for the cheering in the clubhouse when Little was introduced, hard not to believe it was as much about who Little wasn't (Kerrigan) as who he was. But he had been with the club a few years earlier so some guys were familiar with him.
 

joyofsox

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Is that true? I never read that. I thought that the front office knew that Little completely botched the ALCS, completely lost the clubhouse and there was no way that he could return.

From what I remember reading, when Little was announced as manager in 2002, the clubhouse exploded in cheers.
On page 10 of Tale of Two Cities (by Tony Massarotti and John Harper), it is reported - when talking about the 2003 ALCS - that Henry "wanted to fire Little four months earlier".

Also: Seth Mnookin reported that after Little returned to the dugout, leaving Pedro in to face Matsui, Henry turned to Larry Lucchino and asked: "Can we fire him right now?"
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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On page 10 of Tale of Two Cities (by Tony Massarotti and John Harper), it is reported - when talking about the 2003 ALCS - that Henry "wanted to fire Little four months earlier".
I read that book awhile ago and completely forgot about that part.

Though I did not read the Mnookin tome.

Thanks for hipping me to that. I wasn't saying that lex was wrong, BTW, I just wasn't aware (or forgot) that Henry wanted to fire Little so soon.
 

richgedman'sghost

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The cheering in the clubhouse was more Anti Kerrigan than Pro Little, although as previously mentioned Grady was highly thought of by the veterans of the team such as Nomar and Varitek. I have often thought about how history might have been different if Cubbage had been allowed to stay on as manager. If I remember correctly, Cubbage was named interim manager for the first couple of days following the firing of Kerrigan and the official hiring of Little. Was Mike Cubbage perceived as part of the Kerrigan regime or too old school? I met him at spring training one time and he seemed a nice guy for all that's worth. Anyway, Cubbage must not have been very impressive in the interview process, since he was never named a major league manager.
 

Al Zarilla

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I don't know if it was Theo that talked him out of it, but Henry was pretty candid in Seth Mnunkin's book (Feeding the Monster, page 208) that he had numerous conversations about firing Little midseason (didn't identify with whom he spoke, but presumably Lucchino and Epstein were among them). He was upset that Little usually ignored the volumes of data that baseball ops provided (scouting and stats) and managed by hunch. Henry said it dated back to Opening Day when the closer-by-committee experiment was botched due to "total lack of preparation". Henry was even reported to say that should the Red Sox win the World Series, he would say "I am going to fire Grady Little" instead of "I'm going to Disney World".

As for the cheering in the clubhouse when Little was introduced, hard not to believe it was as much about who Little wasn't (Kerrigan) as who he was. But he had been with the club a few years earlier so some guys were familiar with him.
That makes me happy, or at least pleased, that the top guy pays that much attention (the bit about Henry knowing that Little ignored the statistical stuff). I'm sure there are owners that don't pay that close attention. Otoh, he signs off on BV's hiring.
 

lexrageorge

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IIRC, there were a couple of mid-season incidents that left the Sox ownership fuming at Little. There was a game in Philly where Little's misuse of the bullpen resulted in Rudy Seanez facing Jim Thome in extra innings, which predictably ended with Thome taking the ball out of the park. Then there was a 3 game series with the Cardinals in Fenway where Little was outmanaged by Tony LaRussa as the Sox lost 2 of 3.
 

reggiecleveland

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I have little doubt that Nicky and Bobby have already spoken. Deadline for Sunday column is probably today anyway.

Maybe I'm hyper-sensitive to Globe Saint Nick, but I thought this was a bit of a jab in Ortiz's direction today:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2017/05/11/mookie-betts-rounding-into-vintage-form/6Aac4QzekbyoqAD1FQhcSJ/story.html
I would hope Cafordo, who tends to play it safe will realize Ortiz is a saint and Bobby V has been cast out.
 

Kliq

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It's so strange to STILL be on the Bobby V corner; it's like still believing that NEW Coke was a good idea. It was clearly an unmitigated failure and it's been buried in the past so that almost no one will even remember who thought it was a good idea at the time, yet Cafardo keeps bringing it up.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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It's what's been happening to discourse in this country in the last 10-20 years, no one can ever admit a mistake or say that they were wrong (without a caveat) or reverse course on thinking. If they do, they look "weak" because of course, your first thought is always the correct one.

So people dig their heals in and will defend their original thought even though it's been proven over and over and over and over and over again that it's incorrect.

Exhibit A is Nick Cafardo and Bobby Valentine.