Betts to 2nd

[Heating up in the bullpen]

Bump.
Mookie going back to 2b according to WEEI (http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2014/09/11/mookie-betts-to-play-second-down-the-stretch-as-brock-holt-sent-to-concussion-specialist/).
This move is due to Pedroia being out for the year and Holt being sent to Pittsburgh to see a concussion specialist.  No insights shared on what the Sox will do if/when Holt's symptoms clear up and he can play again.

 

[Heating up in the bullpen]

Mookie since last year:
'13 Greenville (A) 76 games, .296 AVG, .418 OBP, .477 SLG, .895 OPS
'13 Salem (A+) 51 games, .341, .414, .551, .966
'14 Portland (AA) 54 games, .355, .443, .551, .994
'14 Pawtucket (AAA) 45 games, .335, .417, .503, .920
'14 Boston  37 games, .285, .359, .446, .805  (in the 25 games since his mid-August call-up .301, .387, .473, .860 with 13 BB/15 K and 4 SB/0 CS and on-base by hit or walk in 23 of those 25 games)

 

[MakMan44]

Doesn't make sense to me. His long term home isn't there so why not expand his reps in the OF?

 

[Heating up in the bullpen]

Doesn't make sense to me. His long term home isn't there so why not expand his reps in the OF?

Farrell notes that this will allow JBJ and Castillo to share CF.

 

[MakMan44]

Farrell notes that this will allow JBJ and Castillo to share CF.

ROS or long term? I'd just rather see him working in the OF ROS, not like there's anything to lose and those reps are valuable

 

[RedOctober3829]

Doesn't make sense to me. His long term home isn't there so why not expand his reps in the OF?

They are in a pinch at 2B with Pedroia out for the year and Holt on the shelf.

 

[The X Man Cometh]

They are in a pinch at 2B with Pedroia out for the year and Holt on the shelf.

 
Who cares. Put Weeks at at 2B. F*** it put Allen Craig at 2B before Mookie. Mookie's future is in the outfield. He needs all the reps he can get.

 

[MakMan44]

They are in a pinch at 2B with Pedroia out for the year and Holt on the shelf.

What about Weeks?

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Doesn't make sense to me. His long term home isn't there so why not expand his reps in the OF?

Showing that he can play solid ML caliber second base can only help his trade value, whether they trade him or not.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Agreed.  But not until tomorrow.  Today he's back in RF, with Weeks at 2B.
 
I mean, if you want to see how well he plays a ML second base, PUT HIM AT SECOND BASE.

 

[gammoseditor]

What about Weeks?

 
Looks like it will be Weeks until Castillo is called up.  Once Castillo is called up you'd rather have him and Mookie in the lineup than one of them and Weeks. 

 

[Drek717]

 
Who cares. Put Weeks at at 2B. F*** it put Allen Craig at 2B before Mookie. Mookie's future is in the outfield. He needs all the reps he can get.

He needs ABs more than he need reps in the OF, so will Bradley and if called up before the end of the season so will Castillo.  You know who doesn't need ABs?  Weeks.  Because he's a scrub with no future with the Sox.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

you can get reps fielding in the off season, you can't get PA against ML pitching.

Plus Pedroia should get more days off in the future hopefully (I know he hates sitting), it can't hurt to play Mookie 15-20 games there and the rest in the OF. It's good to have versatility.

I wonder how many people would takes Betts over Xander long term. I hope we keep both.

 

[Dalton Jones]

Showing that he can play solid ML caliber second base can only help his trade value, whether they trade him or not.

This.

 

[benhogan]

you can get reps fielding in the off season, you can't get PA against ML pitching.

Plus Pedroia should get more days off in the future hopefully (I know he hates sitting), it can't hurt to play Mookie 15-20 games there and the rest in the OF. It's good to have versatility.

I wonder how many people would takes Betts over Xander long term. I hope we keep both. 

 
Betts hit better then X at: Low A, High A, AA, AAA and at the Major League level. Has more speed. Probably a better glove. Is a week younger.
 
Xander had a sweet playoff run last year and was ranked higher in all prospect rankings over the last few years.
 
I'll opt for our new shiny toy Mookie, but we should keep and start both next season.  And banish JBJ and WMB to AAA next spring...

 

[mt8thsw9th]

 
Who cares. Put Weeks at at 2B. F*** it put Allen Craig at 2B before Mookie. Mookie's future is in the outfield. He needs all the reps he can get.

You should up the meds. They will have a full OF as of next week, and next year, and Pedroia will likely need to be spelled for stretches over both.

 

[MakMan44]

You should up the meds. They will have a full OF as of next week, and next year, and Pedroia will likely need to be spelled for stretches over both.

I don't think, based on this season, it's crazy to think the best OF configuration next season is Cespedes, Castillo, Betts. Craig has been awful, and JBJ hasn't inspired confidence either. 

 

[jscola85]

 
Betts hit better then X at: Low A, High A, AA, AAA and at the Major League level. Has more speed. Probably a better glove. Is a week younger.
 
Xander had a sweet playoff run last year and was ranked higher in all prospectus rankings over the last few years.
 
I'll opt for our new shiny toy Mookie, but we should keep and start both next season.  And banish JBJ and WMB to AAA next spring...

 
Scouting rankings from folks like BA and Keith Law always skew towards players with high ceilings.  With his frame, Betts will never jump out as a guy with potential MVP ability.  Bogaerts played a tougher position coming up and showed the bat speed and raw power to make scouts drool about him in his prime.
 
As exciting as Betts has been, Bogaerts is still probably viewed head and shoulders above him.  He is just 21 still and has shown plenty enough at least in my eyes to believe he can be a Silver Slugger as a SS or even 3B.
 
This is not meant to diminish Mookie.  Personally, I don't want either traded and would rather deal from our surplus of AAA/young MLB arms (Workman, Webster, RDLR, Kelly, Ranaudo, Escobar, Owens, Johnson, Rodriguez) to upgrade 2015.  That's nine guys who should all have pretty substantial trade value given age, talent and team control.

 

[Plympton91]

 
Looks like it will be Weeks until Castillo is called up.  Once Castillo is called up you'd rather have him and Mookie in the lineup than one of them and Weeks. 

This is absolutely true. Both Betts and Castillo need at bats against major league pitchers. What position is almost irrelevant at this point.

 

[HillysLastWalk]

A couple of mentions in Keith Law's chat today: http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/51140/mlb-insider-keith-law
 
Shawn (Detroit)

What are your thoughts on Cespedes, Betts, and Castillo in the Red Sox OF in 2015?
 
Klaw
  (1:56 PM)
Seems like those are the three. I need to see Rusney - possibly this weekend in Baltimore - but Betts is so promising that they should build the plans around getting him everyday at bats.
 
---
 
Roger (Chicago)

Two years later and I'm still not sure anyone has the answer, but how does Betts do it? He seems to seemlessly adjust after every promotion, including one of the smoother jumps to the majors I've ever seen (unlike every other Red Sox prospect).
 
Klaw
  (2:02 PM)
80 athlete with insane aptitude. He's amazing. Already one of my favorite MLBers to watch.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

Law saying nice things about players from Boston.  Whoa.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Law saying nice things about players from Boston.  Whoa.

Well, player,  not players.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Betts might be staking a claim to the leadoff slot.

 

[JakeRae]

Betts might be staking a claim to the leadoff slot.

 
This strikes me as a fairly dramatic understatement. The leadoff spot is already his.

 

[HillysLastWalk]

Well, as long as he is here after this off-season.  I'll be a broken record, but there is no way they should trade this guy.  Yes, he hasn't proved it over a 162 game season, but this guy is a 5 WAR player.  Now.  And maybe I'm dead wrong, but I don't see how you trade a 5 WAR player for say a 7-8 WAR player and the salaries that come with it.  Take the multi-millions you are saving by keeping Betts and overpay elsewhere.

 

[TheoShmeo]

Assuming the Sox do not trade Betts and he starts the season in Boston, where is he going to play?
 
If we assume that Pedroia is back healthy to start the season and they feel compelled to put their $72 mm man in CF, where does that leave Betts?  RF?  Or do they put Castillo in RF and Betts in CF?
 
Can he play SS?  Is 3B an option?  Or do they move Pedey to SS and leave Betts at 2B?

 

[MakMan44]

RF/CF seems the most likely route to playing time next season, but man I'd love to see him take 3rd if they don't think Cecchini is ready next season. 

 

[HillysLastWalk]

With Victorino and Cespedes under control for one more year, next year, couldn't he just be in the Outfield, second base (when Pedroia needs a rest), DH (when Ortiz needs a rest) mix?  And let it all work itself out?
 
Victorino, Cespedes, Castillo, Betts, Nava?  With the expectation that Victorino wouldn't play 150 games anyway?

 

[TheoShmeo]

He just seems to me to have enough potential upside that the Super Sub role isn't quite enough.  Especially if he's a lead off hitter.  I had the same thought about Holt before he reverted to the mean, seemingly.

 

[MakMan44]

He just seems to me to have enough potential upside that the Super Sub role isn't quite enough.  Especially if he's a lead off hitter.  I had the same thought about Holt before he reverted to the mean, seemingly.

There's nothing wrong with a Holt/Zobrist role. In fact, it makes the player much more valuable while still giving them the same amount of starter's PAs.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

The Zobrist role worked because the guys he was alternating with were all spare part/complementary type players: Iwamura, Kapler, Sean Rodriguez, Reid Brignac, etc. The only more or less legit starting player he ever alternated with extensively was Matt Joyce. They used Zobrist's versatility to squeeze value out of limited role players. He wasn't getting PT (after 2008, anyway) due to injuries or rest to other guys; the other guys were behind him in the pecking order.
 
I don't see how this can work for the Sox next year when the guys Betts would be spelling would be Castillo, Cespedes, Victorino (assuming he's still here), Pedroia and Ortiz. All guys with big contracts and big expectations, who are clearly ahead of Mookie in the PT pecking order.
 
Unless the Sox think Mookie can play 3B (and if they did, I would expect to have seen him there at least once by now), the only way he will get extensive PT next year is if somebody has a season-ending injury or the Sox make a space for him by trading VIctorino. Which, I hope, is what they do. A starting OF of Cespedes/Betts/Castillo (really, you could deploy those three any way you like as long as Cespedes isn't the CF), with Nava as the 4th OF and Craig in the Carp role, seems like the logical way to go.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

If they decide that they want him in the leadoff slot then they will find a place for him in the field. Most probably RF, possibly (but unlikely) 3B.

Castillo and Cespedes are going to start in the OF, but after them there is no one who has a job locked down. Victorino? I doubt the Sox are projecting him as a regular. Craig? Needs to prove he isn't a sunk cost. Bradley? Will be in AAA trying to figure out how to hit. Nava? Probably deserves a platoon role, but as primarily a LF, Cespedes has taken his job.

I think RF is very much in play for Betts next year.

 

[mwonow]

He just seems to me to have enough potential upside that the Super Sub role isn't quite enough.  Especially if he's a lead off hitter.  I had the same thought about Holt before he reverted to the mean, seemingly.

 
Agreed, and in line with what Law said - find Mookie regular ABs, and watch him rake!

 

[MakMan44]

The Zobrist role worked because the guys he was alternating with were all spare part/complementary type players: Iwamura, Kapler, Sean Rodriguez, Reid Brignac, etc. The only more or less legit starting player he ever alternated with extensively was Matt Joyce. They used Zobrist's versatility to squeeze value out of limited role players. He wasn't getting PT (after 2008, anyway) due to injuries or rest to other guys; the other guys were behind him in the pecking order.
 
I don't see how this can work for the Sox next year when the guys Betts would be spelling would be Castillo, Cespedes, Victorino (assuming he's still here), Pedroia and Ortiz. All guys with big contracts and big expectations, who are clearly ahead of Mookie in the PT pecking order.
 
Unless the Sox think Mookie can play 3B (and if they did, I would expect to have seen him there at least once by now), the only way he will get extensive PT next year is if somebody has a season-ending injury or the Sox make a space for him by trading VIctorino. Which, I hope, is what they do. A starting OF of Cespedes/Betts/Castillo (really, you could deploy those three any way you like as long as Cespedes isn't the CF), with Nava as the 4th OF and Craig in the Carp role, seems like the logical way to go.

I think Betts has moved ahead of Victorino, honestly. Starting Mookie in AAA if Victorino is healthy to open the year makes a lot of sense but if they're both on the roster I'd be assuming Mookie was the starter. 

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Well, as long as he is here after this off-season.  I'll be a broken record, but there is no way they should trade this guy.  Yes, he hasn't proved it over a 162 game season, but this guy is a 5 WAR player.  Now.  And maybe I'm dead wrong, but I don't see how you trade a 5 WAR player for say a 7-8 WAR player and the salaries that come with it.  Take the multi-millions you are saving by keeping Betts and overpay elsewhere.

He's not a 5 WAR player. Just because his WAR isn't really depending on the defensive component, that doesn't mean we can safely extrapolate a full season estimate of his value from a partial season.

Xander Bogaerts looked like a 5 WAR player down the stretch and in the playoffs last year. It turns out he's not there. At least not yet. I'm as excited about Mookie as anyone and I hope they execute an offseason plan that keeps him in Boston, but declaring him a 5 WAR player now is incredibly optimistic.

 

[HillysLastWalk]

Yes, he hasn't proved it over a 162 game season.
 
So what I am doing is taking the leap.  No one said anything about "safely".  At this point, I can only go on my gut.  That's what I'm declaring when I say he's a 5 WAR player.  I've seen enough of his minor league track record and his seamless transition to the majors to feel this way - that over 162 games, you will see 5 WAR.  So now that you understand this, can I not get reprimanded?
 
As for Xander, just because he struggled, it doesn't mean we should expect everyone else to struggle in the same way.
 
I understand the Xander hype, but at the same time, he had 50 plate appearances before the start of the playoffs.  Betts is now up to 186 and keeps on getting better.  In addition, Xander struck out 26% of the time in those 50 PA's, and has struck out 23% of the time this year.  Betts is at 14.5%.  Betts is much more adept at controlling the strike zone than Xander ever was or will be.
 
Based on Betts' track record in the minors (he's always been a better hitter than Xander, though Xander was slightly younger when playing at comparable levels), and what he is doing now in the majors (he's getting better as the book gets out), I think what you see is what you will get.

 

[ivanvamp]

Castillo, Betts, Cedpedes in the OF, with Victorino and Nava as the two backups.
 
Napoli, Pedroia, Bogaerts, and 3b-to-be-named in the infield, with Holt and Craig (and, if needed, Betts…and then deploy Nava/Vic in the OF that day) the backups.  Ortiz at DH, with Craig maybe filling in when tough lefties are on the mound.  Vazquez at C with a veteran backup.
 
That's a very versatile group.
 
Bullpen:  Tazawa, Mujica, Workman, Hembree, maybe Koji and a strong lefty
Rotation:  TBD, TBD, Buchholz, Kelly, RDLR  (one of those TBD might be from the Barnes/Webster/Owens group)
 
So major problems to solve:  3b, SP, SP, bullpen lefty
 
Four significant pieces to acquire.  With their budget, that will be easily doable.  They probably have as much as $60 million available for those four positions.  The bullpen lefty should cost no more than $5, meaning you have $55 for three positions.  
 
Lester - $25
McCarthy - $14
Panda - $16
 
So….
 
C - Vazquez, FA
1b - Napoli
2b - Pedroia
3b - Sandoval
SS - Bogaerts
LF - Castillo
CF - Betts
RF - Cespedes
DH - Ortiz
Bench - FA C, Craig, Holt, Victorino, Nava
 
Rotation:  Lester, McCarthy, Buchholz, RDLR, Kelly
Bullpen:  Workman, Tazawa, Coke, Mujica, Koji, Hembree
 
Primary lineup:
 
CF Betts
2b Pedroia
DH Ortiz
RF Cespedes
3b Sandoval
1b Napoli
LF Castillo
SS Bogaerts
C Vazquez
 
Good speed (Betts/Castillo/Pedroia).  Very good power (Ortiz, Cespedes, Sandoval, Napoli all 20+ hr guys).  Versatile.  Deep bench.
 
That team should win a lot of baseball games.

 

[foulkehampshire]

I have a hard time with paying the perpetually injured McCarthy 14 mil a season. Seems unwise, even for a FA overpay. 

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

I like the idea of moving Betts around in a Zobrist role, while telling him he's the lead-off guy for stability/confidence-building purposes.  Ortiz and Victorino (even if "healthy")should get a day off per week.  Pedroia once every 2-3 weeks, and a DH turn thrown in every couple weeks (Sunday day after Saturday night).   Give Castillo and Cespedes a day off every other week.  That's close to F/T work.  And if they think they are too overcrowded and Vic looks healthy, trade Vic to someone who will value his veteran leadership.
 
At 3B, I doubt they go long term, especially with someone like Sandoval (lots of risk there), unless they don't think Cecchini can play 3B eventually.  Assuming he's still in the plans, then a platoon of WMB and Holt looks more realistic.  And if they've concluded that WMB isn't up to the short side of a platoon, then they could sign a vet like Callaspo to take that role (career OPS of .730 v. LHP).   Cheaper and shorter term.  And even more versatility added.

 

[gryoung]

I know he's one of the few power guys- but having a DH with limited fielding ability does provide a challenge.  Seems the trend for DH is more of a rotation - which would solve "where to play Mookie" dilema.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Ivanvamp - I like your lineup - but Craig and Nava//Victorino can't really coexist on the 25 man roster - your's has 14 position players 
 
 
Also - I think Layne has earned a spot in next year;s bullpen.

 

[MakMan44]

I know he's one of the few power guys- but having a DH with limited fielding ability does provide a challenge.  Seems the trend for DH is more of a rotation - which would solve "where to play Mookie" dilema.

He's under contract next year. What's your suggestion for Ortiz in this case?

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Ivanvamp - I like your lineup - but Craig and Nava//Victorino can't really coexist on the 25 man roster - your's has 14 position players 

 
Yes. What it boils down to is that there will be 3 25-man slots for VIctorino, Craig, Nava, Betts, and JBJ.
 
Given the overwhelming righthandedness of the lineup, you would think one of the three has to be a LHH.
 
One of the three also has to be Craig, because they probably can't trade him and I don't think they'll release him.
 
Ergo, there will not be room for both Victorino and Betts.

 

[gryoung]

He's under contract next year. What's your suggestion for Ortiz in this case?

 
There really isn't much the Sox can do here.  But --
 
(1) I don't extend him past his current deal - regardless of how much he whines.
(2) He has the potential to reinjure his achilles - which would be tough to come back from.
(3) He may decline to the point where his performance dictates some bench time

 

[smastroyin]

 
There really isn't much the Sox can do here.  But --
 
(1) I don't extend him past his current deal - regardless of how much he whines.
(2) He has the potential to reinjure his achilles - which would be tough to come back from.
(3) He may decline to the point where his performance dictates some bench time

 
Well, there is nothing they can do other than continue to play their most productive bat until he stops being their most productive bat, maybe.
 
But by all means, let's see what we can do to create another problem rather then deal with the ones we have.  That's smart management.

 

[gryoung]

 
Well, there is nothing they can do other than continue to play their most productive bat until he stops being their most productive bat, maybe.
 
But by all means, let's see what we can do to create another problem rather then deal with the ones we have.  That's smart management.

 
Smart management includes contingency planning.  Outside of not extending Ortiz past his current deal, the other items need to be considered as what-if's.  Not creating a problem, but having a plan ready if one of the risks materializes. 

 

[MakMan44]

Isn't Hanley's injury history worse than Pablo's though?


And maybe a mod could split out the Panda talk?

 

[ivanvamp]

Ivanvamp - I like your lineup - but Craig and Nava//Victorino can't really coexist on the 25 man roster - your's has 14 position players 
 
 
Also - I think Layne has earned a spot in next year;s bullpen.

 
Right.  14 position players and 11 pitches = 25 roster spots.  
 
EDIT:  And if they keep Layne maybe they don't need another lefty FA acquisition.

 

[Plympton91]

 
Yes. What it boils down to is that there will be 3 25-man slots for VIctorino, Craig, Nava, Betts, and JBJ.
 
Given the overwhelming righthandedness of the lineup, you would think one of the three has to be a LHH.
 
One of the three also has to be Craig, because they probably can't trade him and I don't think they'll release him.
 
Ergo, there will not be room for both Victorino and Betts.

This is likely a "problem" that will solve itself. Is be shocked if both Craig and Victorino are ready to go on opening day. And, in one of these threads it's been determined that Craig still has a minor league option left. If he returns to form, then you can trade Nava, and if he doesn't then he would surely go unclaimed (sadly) if he's sent down after a poor spring training.

 

[benhogan]

 
There really isn't much the Sox can do here.  But --
 
(1) I don't extend him past his current deal - regardless of how much he whines.
(2) He has the potential to reinjure his achilles - which would be tough to come back from.
(3) He may decline to the point where his performance dictates some bench time

Really? On the Betts to 2nd thread your concern is... David Ortiz?
 
You know thats just wrong, you're talking about Big Papi here, a little respect.   The 'whine' stuff is the type of crap hyped up by asses like CHB and makes you sound like an ungrateful whiny fan.  Every contract the Sox have given to Ortiz has been great value for the Sox, and if he has mentioned this to the press, then he's right.
 
Ortiz was BY FAR our best hitter this year and really doesn't appear to be slowing down (see Baltimore series) at the moment.  There are much bigger fish to fry on this thread, Papi isn't one of them.