Betts/Price to LA for Verdugo/Jeter Downs/TBA

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Cokes311

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i for one find it strange that "negative media reaction" is to blame (and not, say, fan reaction and a complete likely halt to ticket sales) especially when the team literally owns the boston globe.
"negative media reaction" could mean so many things

and a lot of the reporting on this trade has agreed with the fans, which has undoubtedly fired many of us up more. seeing a vindication of one's beliefs in the media is a very empowering thing (see also: the last 4 years of racists in charge of politics empowering white supremacists to be open about their bigotry just about everywhere)
 

Cellar-Door

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Some reports seem to be suggesting the Sox are asking for another prospect, in addition to Graterol. If that's the case, I can certainly see why the Twins would be annoyed and walk away.

What I don't understand is, how the Twins wouldn't have another prospect of similar caliber to Graterol they could send instead. As has been reported, these deals very often have a component of "Pick 1 of these 3 players and 1 of these 3 players". If Graterol was the #10 prospect for the Twins (just throwing out a number), I'm surprised they can't just offer the #8, #9, #11, or #12 and ask them to pick one. It hardly seems like the difference in the prospects would be that huge.
Closest is probably Balazovic, but that's a pretty different return, getting a guy in high A vs. majors. They really don't have another prospect (particularly pitching) that generally is in the same tier as Graterol, they have guys generally considered not as good, and 2 guys who are much higher rated.
 

EvilEmpire

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Yeah, bankshot, we don't agree. Too many variables in one season to count on Mookie and Price putting the Dodgers over the top. But at least the Dodgers know that if they do fall short offensively, they can still go after Mookie after.

And you know why the Yankees added Cole. They have concerns about their pitching rotation. Do the Dodgers have the same level of concern about their offense? I don't think so. The upgrade from Verdugo to Mookie is very, very nice though.
 

amfox1

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People rooting for the deal to fall apart are definitely going to be the first ones irate when they realize they get one year of Betts in a dumpster fire awkward season on a non all-in team and the future looks much bleaker for the few years before Bogaerts opts-out.
 

twibnotes

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"negative media reaction" could mean so many things

and a lot of the reporting on this trade has agreed with the fans, which has undoubtedly fired many of us up more. seeing a vindication of one's beliefs in the media is a very empowering thing (see also: the last 4 years of racists in charge of politics empowering white supremacists to be open about their bigotry just about everywhere)
this potential trade has NOTHING to do with Donald trump. Can’t you just leave politics out of this? Can’t there be a place where we just talking about fucking baseball?! Jesus Christ...
 

joyofsox

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Many super-wealthy people don't have 35,000 people at their company every day watching the product - and many times that total watching on TV. To say Henry is clueless about how popular various Sox players are is odd.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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Friedman's unwillingness to part with a second prospeect seems pretty obvious at this point; he seems to want Betts just enough to take Price but not enough to send another kid out. I can see Friedman telling Bloom that he'll take another 10% of Price's contract, but that's as good as it gets. They both know this is about Boston dumping salary, and little else.
 

bankshot1

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Yeah, bankshot, we don't agree. Too many variables in one season to count on Mookie and Price putting the Dodgers over the top. But at least the Dodgers know that if they do fall short offensively, they can still go after Mookie after.

And you know why the Yankees added Cole. They have concerns about their pitching rotation. Do the Dodgers have the same level of concern about their offense? I don't think so. The upgrade from Verdugo to Mookie is very, very nice though.
Lets keep at we totally disagree as we seem to view this from far different perspectives.
 

amfox1

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Not sure how to read this exactly. Is there a chance the Sox change their minds about trading Mookie? Or is it just the return?
It's the return. The Red Sox cannot make this trade without getting something else back instead of, or in addition to, Brusdar. Right now, the Red Sox are trying to save face. The question is whether the Dodgers will allow them to do so.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It sounds like someone out there is pushing a Red Sox cold feet or buyer’s remorse narrative. Now what might that mean?

1) The Sox actually did get cold feet after “reading the room”.

Or

2) Someone has an interest in convincing the world that there was not really something in the medical records that would reasonably give a team genuine pause.

Given that it appears that Boras is at least one of the league sources here, I am leaning 2.
 
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According to an article in the Minneapolis Star Tribune website, the Red Sox asked for an additional top 10 prospect to be added to the deal and while the Twins were excited about adding Maeda, they were agaisnt sweetening the deal. Also, the article says the Twins were planning to use Graterol out of the bullpen, where his 102-mph fastball would be an asset.
 

TFisNEXT

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Many super-wealthy people don't have 35,000 people at their company every day watching the product - and many times that total watching on TV. To say Henry is clueless about how popular various Sox players are is odd.
Yeah I don’t buy that narrative at all. John Henry has always seemed to be very in tune with the fans and media. Hell, he is often seen walking outside the park before games.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Some version of the deal will still go down. Maybe not with the twins but Mookie Betts and David Price aren't going to be in camp for the Sox.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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boy he's really still working hard to spin this for the ownership/FO
He's also correct. There is no universe where Sox ownership--or any ownership, for that matter--is going to keep their feet on the pedal past the LT thresholds season after season. If he's here for 2020, In 2021 you can have Betts or you can have a competitive team, but you can't have both.
 

bosockboy

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According to an article in the Minneapolis Star Tribune website, the Red Sox asked for an additional top 10 prospect to be added to the deal and while the Twins were excited about adding Maeda, they were agaisnt sweetening the deal. Also, the article says the Twins were planning to use Graterol out of the bullpen, where his 102-mph fastball would be an asset.
Yep the Twins have every right to bail. They are providing value by proxy for the Dodgers to help them get Betts. This falls on Friedman to satisfy the Sox.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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If you imagine that everyone with a source who is tweeting today is a puppet with Boras’s hand up their ass it all makes sense. Right down to the initial misreporting on whether the Twins are still talking to the Red Sox. If Graterol is out then from Boras’ perspective the Twins were out. But it turns out that he only knows his piece of it so someone with the Twins or Sox or representing another player had to correct that.
 

Cokes311

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He's also correct. There is no universe where Sox ownership--or any ownership, for that matter--is going to keep their feet on the pedal past the LT thresholds season after season. If he's here for 2020, In 2021 you can have Betts or you can have a competitive team, but you can't have both.
Oh, I know his math is correct (barring something very unusual happening) but he's been banging the drum so hard on Verdugo and totally ignoring all the off the field and injury issues, too.
 

NomarsFool

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They feel that Graterol is sufficient value for that, and don’t want to give up a better player.
Again, the point is that I would imagine that the players they have ranked a few spots above and below Graterol are likely very similar in value, in the grand scheme of things. It's not like we're talking about "Pick Betts or Benintendi" here. We're talking about minor league prospects, who are all crapshoots anyway. If I was the Twins, I'd think they have a couple of players that are of similar value to Graterol and they could ask the Sox to pick one.
 

bosockboy

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Again, the point is that I would imagine that the players they have ranked a few spots above and below Graterol are likely very similar in value, in the grand scheme of things. It's not like we're talking about "Pick Betts or Benintendi" here. We're talking about minor league prospects, who are all crapshoots anyway. If I was the Twins, I'd think they have a couple of players that are of similar value to Graterol and they could ask the Sox to pick one.
Graterol is a top 100. They don’t grow on trees.
 

joyofsox

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Baseball America's Executive Editor:


1. Worth noting that the hiccup in the Red Sox-Twins-Dodgers trade revolving around Brusdar Graterol's medicals is a reminder of the aspects of public prospect evaluation that are nearly impossible to report and gather when ranking players.

2. Yes, we all know that Graterol has missed time with shoulder and elbow injuries. He had TJ. He missed time in 2019 with shoulder soreness. That's available publicly. The Red Sox knew all that and then knew his delivery. They appeared to believe he might be able to start.

3. From current reporting, it appears that once they saw Graterol's medicals (only available to them after trade was agreed to) they changed their assessment of Graterol's ability to start. Now medicals are never cut-and-dried.

4. A shoulder MRI may look fine to one team and flunk a player in a trade or free agent signing for another (Orioles for example). But the fact that the Red Sox evaluation of Graterol changed once they saw his medicals is a piece of info that we rarely get publicly.

5. When we do our next Top 100 Prospect update, it will be something we will talk about @baseballamerica. We evaluated Graterol as likely to be a reliever (a very good one) with a slight chance to start. But the durability concerns appear to be worse than we knew.
 

Cellar-Door

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Again, the point is that I would imagine that the players they have ranked a few spots above and below Graterol are likely very similar in value, in the grand scheme of things. It's not like we're talking about "Pick Betts or Benintendi" here. We're talking about minor league prospects, who are all crapshoots anyway. If I was the Twins, I'd think they have a couple of players that are of similar value to Graterol and they could ask the Sox to pick one.
They aren't. I mentioned it up-thread, but there is probably only one other Twins prospect in the general range of Graterol, and that is an A-ball pitcher, where Graterol was in the majors last year so a significantly different TYPE of acquisition even if similarly valued. If the Red Sox are looking for a pitcher who projects to be a middle to end of the rotation starter as soon as this year? The Twins don't have much to offer.
 

54thMA

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Many super-wealthy people don't have 35,000 people at their company every day watching the product - and many times that total watching on TV. To say Henry is clueless about how popular various Sox players are is odd.
Hey, when you own multiple professional sports teams, it's hard to keep track of the players.
 

Plympton91

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Some reports seem to be suggesting the Sox are asking for another prospect, in addition to Graterol. If that's the case, I can certainly see why the Twins would be annoyed and walk away.

What I don't understand is, how the Twins wouldn't have another prospect of similar caliber to Graterol they could send instead. As has been reported, these deals very often have a component of "Pick 1 of these 3 players and 1 of these 3 players". If Graterol was the #10 prospect for the Twins (just throwing out a number), I'm surprised they can't just offer the #8, #9, #11, or #12 and ask them to pick one. It hardly seems like the difference in the prospects would be that huge.
The difference is that the Twins were valuing Graterol as a potential closer, which is why they were willing to part with him for Maeda, and the Red Sox were valuing Graterol as a potential #1 starter, which is why they’d take him for Betts. A prospect who the Red Sox and Twins both view as a #1 starter isn’t going to get traded for Maeda.
 

Diamond Don Aase

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Graterol is a top 100. They don’t grow on trees.
The Twins have two prospects that are better than Graterol in Royce Lewis and Alex Kirilloff but only Kirilloff is comparable and only if you think that Graterol is a starter and Kirilloff is limited to first base. Jordan Balazovic is likely Minnesota’s next-best prospect but he lacks Graterol’s ceiling and is further removed from the major leagues.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Baseball America's Executive Editor:


1. Worth noting that the hiccup in the Red Sox-Twins-Dodgers trade revolving around Brusdar Graterol's medicals is a reminder of the aspects of public prospect evaluation that are nearly impossible to report and gather when ranking players.

2. Yes, we all know that Graterol has missed time with shoulder and elbow injuries. He had TJ. He missed time in 2019 with shoulder soreness. That's available publicly. The Red Sox knew all that and then knew his delivery. They appeared to believe he might be able to start.

3. From current reporting, it appears that once they saw Graterol's medicals (only available to them after trade was agreed to) they changed their assessment of Graterol's ability to start. Now medicals are never cut-and-dried.

4. A shoulder MRI may look fine to one team and flunk a player in a trade or free agent signing for another (Orioles for example). But the fact that the Red Sox evaluation of Graterol changed once they saw his medicals is a piece of info that we rarely get publicly.

5. When we do our next Top 100 Prospect update, it will be something we will talk about @baseballamerica. We evaluated Graterol as likely to be a reliever (a very good one) with a slight chance to start. But the durability concerns appear to be worse than we knew.
Looks like someone sees through the bullshit. This is why Boras has been working his ass off and the Union is shouting about privacy.

Occam’s razor: The deal fell apart because the Red Sox saw something that gave them pause on the medical records.

If you want to put stock in some alternative narrative — like the Bloom sucks or fickle owner narrative — at least first ask who wants you to believe it. Here is a hint. It rhymes with Shreterol. Or Moras.
 

Cellar-Door

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The difference is that the Twins were valuing Graterol as a potential closer, which is why they were willing to part with him for Maeda, and the Red Sox were valuing Graterol as a potential #1 starter, which is why they’d take him for Betts. A prospect who the Red Sox and Twins both view as a #1 starter isn’t going to get traded for Maeda.
I don't think the Red Sox viewed Graterol as a #1 starter, I don't think anyone does, they probably viewed him as a #3 starter, but generally, yes the Twins seeing him as a reliever only likely made them more willing to trade him.
 

RedOctober3829

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boy he's really still working hard to spin this for the ownership/FO
Except he’s right. Most people are crapping on the front office/ownership didn’t like them before this. I can’t believe I’m seeing these kinds of negative reactions to them after 4 titles in 15 years. I never thought I’d see the day when Red Sox fans became entitled just like Yankees fans but here we are.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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you ever met a multimillionaire, or someone who runs a billion dollar company?

they're not exactly the most aware of us plebeians
My sources tell me that John Henry is floating in zero gravity at the space station, having SOSH posts read to him in the voice of Hal9000.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Except he’s right. Most people are crapping on the front office/ownership didn’t like them before this. I can’t believe I’m seeing these kinds of negative reactions to them after 4 titles in 15 years. I never thought I’d see the day when Red Sox fans became entitled just like Yankees fans but here we are.
I think it comes down to a belief that the cbt is really not an impediment and that it is just about paying more. Some people seem to believe that it is just a fig leaf and that teams can blow through it every year if the owner isn’t greedy.

The fact that other teams that can afford pretty much what they want, like the Dodgers and Yankees, have gotten under seems to confirm it really is a pressing need.
 

djbayko

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The reason for the discrepancy between reports of Twins backing out of deal seem apparent to me. The Twins have drawn a line in the sand in value they’re willing to give up in this trade. Since LA isn’t running to the table to fill in that gap, from the perspective of some parties, that equates to (or can be spun as) the Twins backing out. From the perspective of others parties, the Twins are still willing to go forward with the original deal++.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Looks like someone sees through the bullshit. This is why Boras has been working his ass off and the Union is shouting about privacy.

Occam’s razor: The deal fell apart because the Red Sox saw something that gave them pause on the medical records.

If you want to put stock in some alternative narrative — like the Bloom sucks or fickle owner narrative — at least first ask who wants you to believe it. Here is a hint. It rhymes with Shreterol. Or Moras.
This. Those BA Tweets are telling. People can go down the conspiracy rabbit-hole all they want but recent developments are entirely consistent with the Sox getting access to medical information that wasn't available to them prior to the transaction.

Also, we as fans tend to forget that professional sports transactions are just that - transactions. There is a lot of money at stake, there are ripple effects and the people making these deals are often serving several different masters as well as their own biases. Given that this deal involves two players who are making ~$60mm combined, which as we all know has a huge impact on payrolls etc, its not as easy as plugging it into a trade machine and saying "done". This was a complicated deal and sometimes complicated deals fall apart.
 

cornwalls@6

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People rooting for the deal to fall apart are definitely going to be the first ones irate when they realize they get one year of Betts in a dumpster fire awkward season on a non all-in team and the future looks much bleaker for the few years before Bogaerts opts-out.
That’s a flawed take on a couple of levels. Wherever he plays this year, Mookie will be highly motivated to have a big year heading into FA. Super awkward dumpster fire season is just foolish. Secondly, the bleak future is an over-sell. The Red Sox have the resources to field a competitive club pretty much every year, if they choose to. Getting under the threshold certainly helps them do it with a home grown approach, but there’s other ways to skin that cat, and they are one of a handful of franchises with the wherewithal to pursue those.
 

LeoCarrillo

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It'd be fascinating to know if Friedman's med people in LA agree with Bloom's.

If this were Moneyball 2, the the phone call between the two in that case would be great entertainment.
 
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