Betts/Price to LA for Verdugo/Jeter Downs/TBA

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DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Breaking news: Agent says client he represents is as healthy and virile as can be. 110 page binder to follow.
After likely encouraging the union to declare that talking about the issue is an invasion of player privacy, ensuring the story is all one sided.
 

staz

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The cradle of the game.
I was going to post a meme of The Simpsons Dr. Nick, but then realized this is the main board, where that type of content is frowned upon.

I think all of the pressure is on the Dodgers. They're the ones who haven't won a WS in decades, they're the ones who have a deep farm, and they're the ones who have a recent MVP and top 5 hitter in their grasps. Let them work it out with MIN, and come back to us with a better offer.

If worse comes to worse, Sox have a semi-disgruntled Mookie play until July and get $0.85 on the dollar. That's better than having BG's arm fall off.
 

Average Reds

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Would it make sense for Boston to just take Maeda and absorb less of Price’s contract?

Seems like they could use him.
If Maeda hits his incentives - which are basically about health - he can make just over $11 million next year. In order to bring the numbers to where they are with Graterol, the Sox would have to eliminate about $10 million of the subsidy for Price for next year, and slightly less each year after as Graterol's projected salary slowly rises. And my guess is that won't get it done.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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^^ A direct line from Scott Boras, I am sure
Of course. But I think we have all gotten the feeling that Ownership and the GM might not be on the same page regarding the directive. Probably why some people weren't interested in the job.
 

Plympton91

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It's not a redo. Any deal is contingent on approval of medical reports, which they don't have access to until the deal is agreed upon in principle. They agreed, saw the medicals, saw a red flag, and want to resolve it. How else should it go?

EDIT: Or, what amRadio said.
This is what I would have done.

The risk, however, is that Price gets hurt or underperforms and then locks in his 10-5 rights, and then we're stuck with him, which makes the payroll less manageable going forward.
I assume they know that Price is currently healthy and about to start spring training. His value will increase materially as soon as he throws the first 2 scoreless inning start in spring training. It will increase materially again the first time he throws 6 good innings in April. Price’s value is depressed right now because he finished last year on the DL. They are selling at what is likely the nadir of his value over the next 2 , or they are convinced he’s still hurt and passing off damaged goods. Neither would be good.
 

Bellhorn

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I assume they know that Price is currently healthy and about to start spring training. His value will increase materially as soon as he throws the first 2 scoreless inning start in spring training. It will increase materially again the first time he throws 6 good innings in April. Price’s value is depressed right now because he finished last year on the DL. They are selling at what is likely the nadir of his value over the next 2 , or they are convinced he’s still hurt and passing off damaged goods. Neither would be good.
Why is the second one not good, assuming they don't hide/falsify any information in the process of passing him off?
 

JBJ_HOF

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Of course. But I think we have all gotten the feeling that Ownership and the GM might not be on the same page regarding the directive. Probably why some people weren't interested in the job.
I would say there is 0% chance of that being the case. The front office knows what the owners want.
 
Take a look at the spreadsheet over at Cot's. They've been shopping Price and this was the best they could do with him. Who else on the 40 man are candidates for "complex, heavily subsidized deals" that get them to $208 (keeping in mind they have to pay, you know 40 guys). Show your work--who, how much, and who's buying?

You're pissed about the trade. That's reasonable. Casting Bloom as lazy or incompetent because he couldn't pull off keeping Betts after being told to slash salary isn't. Other teams don't view themselves as being in business to help the Mighty Red Sox unshit the bed.
I said I wondered whether the team had really explored all of their options. I specifically mentioned subsidizing the contracts of some combination of JDM, Price, Eovaldi, and Sale. I think--and I could of course be wrong about any or all of this, as could you--that there's a price point at which each of those players becomes a movable asset, even if it's only via a very ugly salary dump. (I concede that in Sale's and Eovaldi's case that might not be true; their recent injury issues may make them radioactive until proven otherwise.) I also said that I questioned the team's willingness to do deals that aren't "clean" and deals that don't return a cost-controlled asset. I would also imagine that they preferred to trade Mookie than to attach a top-ten prospect to sweeten a salary dump. Would the market for Price have been wider if they'd been willing to include Groome in the deal? On the spectrum of all-out suckitude, would that have been worse than trading Mookie Betts? Where do you draw the line when it comes to retaining the face of your franchise? I think they drew it conservatively. That's what I mean by not exploring all of their options.

I never "cast Bloom as lazy or incompetent"; those are your words. If anything, I think he's been given his marching orders from above, and that he sees moving Mookie as the one and only way to lower payroll while also getting back some kind of meaningful return. He's right.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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I would say there is 0% chance of that being the case. The front office knows what the owners want.
But the reality of getting to where the owners want that's the test. I think thats the divide if there is one. The owners want x cut in payroll and the GMs job is to get the most talent possible out of a bad situation. It almost feels like Bloom was pressured into accepting the deal and is showing buyers remorse.
 

Plympton91

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There's no way the Sox ownership was surprised about the blowback that occurred in the aftermath of the trade. And if they were...God help them this summer.
Being new to town, Bloom may not have been aware of how much the public’s aversion to Verdugo being present at an underage drunk-fest, where it is claimed that a girl got sexually abused by a teammate while he was outside doing something else and then sometime later that night the same girl got physically assaulted by 2 other girls as he watched, would be amplified by the fact that people hated the Mookie deal. Bloom therefore may not have communicated that incident to the owners, who would have been more likely to know that this incident would certainly be Shaughnessied.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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I assume they know that Price is currently healthy and about to start spring training. His value will increase materially as soon as he throws the first 2 scoreless inning start in spring training. It will increase materially again the first time he throws 6 good innings in April. Price’s value is depressed right now because he finished last year on the DL. They are selling at what is likely the nadir of his value over the next 2 , or they are convinced he’s still hurt and passing off damaged goods. Neither would be good.
Price threw 700 innings between 2014-2016, and 250 between 2017-19, topping out with a fWAR of 2.4 in 18. David Price isn't DAVID PRICE anymore, and everyone knows it. His value isn't contingent on his being able to throw 2 scoreless innings in ST or 6 in April, it's being able to walk out to the mound in July, and it's unlikely he's going to remind anyone of 2015 even if he can. It's not unreasonable for the FO to decide that the gap between his floor and ceiling values isn't enough to risk keeping him around.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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I said I wondered whether the team had really explored all of their options. I specifically mentioned subsidizing the contracts of some combination of JDM, Price, Eovaldi, and Sale. I think--and I could of course be wrong about any or all of this, as could you--that there's a price point at which each of those players becomes a movable asset.

I never "cast Bloom as lazy or incompetent"; those are your words. If anything, I think he's been given his marching orders from above, and that he sees moving Mookie as the one and only way to lower payroll while also getting back some kind of meaningful return. He's right.
Fair enough. "Lazy and incompetent" are my words, but you prefer the passive-aggressive wondering if "the team really explored all their options." It probably never occurred to them to look at those options-without-buyers you've suggested.
 

JBJ_HOF

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Being new to town, Bloom may not have been aware of how much the public’s aversion to Verdugo being present at an underage drunk-fest, where it is claimed that a girl got sexually abused by a teammate while he was outside doing something else and then sometime later that night the same girl got physically assaulted by 2 other girls as he watched, would be amplified by the fact that people hated the Mookie deal. Bloom therefore may not have communicated that incident to the owners, who would have been more likely to know that this incident would certainly be Shaughnessied.
You don't think the owners, OHalloran, Romero, Scott, and Ferreira had anything to say about this stuff? People are acting nuts.
 
Fair enough. "Lazy and incompetent" are my words, but you prefer the passive-aggressive wondering if "the team really explored all their options." It probably never occurred to them to look at those options-without-buyers you've suggested.
"Where do you draw the line when it comes to retaining the face of your franchise? I think they drew it conservatively. That's what I mean by not exploring all of their options."

That's my opinion, but I don't see anything passive-aggressive about it.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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What if the most plausible theory to the delay is that someone on the Twins medical staff mislabeled something on the medical report and the Sox caught it and are now trying to use it to squeeze more value? Just a thought.
 

bankshot1

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I suspect the most plausible theory is 3 GMs have their heels dug-in and no one wants to look like the patsy by giving in, even if its in their long-term best interest to do so.

penny wise...
 

Green Monster

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I don't know Alex Verdugo. I have never met him. However, I was young once, and like most people, I did plenty of things that I would never dream of doing today. Things that I am not proud of and wish I had done differently. I am sure Alex Verdugo is no different. If this trade happens and Alex Verdugo is a Red Sox outfielder, I will judge him from that point forward.....Does he bust his butt? Is he a good teammate? Does he conduct himself respectfully on and off the field? Does he bleed Red Sox red? If these answers are Yes, I will root for him and cheer for him just like I have for Mookie. I encourage others to do the same.......It is not Alex Verdugo's fault that the Red Sox are trading Mookie Betts.
 
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Tyrone Biggums

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I suspect the most plausible theory is 3 GMs have their heels dug-in and no one wants to look like the patsy by giving in, even if its in their long-term best interest to do so.

penny wise...
Im sure. But the medical records gives the Sox an excuse to go back and ask for more
 

Harry Hooper

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Price threw 700 innings between 2014-2016, and 250 between 2017-19, topping out with a fWAR of 2.4 in 18. David Price isn't DAVID PRICE anymore, and everyone knows it. His value isn't contingent on his being able to throw 2 scoreless innings in ST or 6 in April, it's being able to walk out to the mound in July, and it's unlikely he's going to remind anyone of 2015 even if he can. It's not unreasonable for the FO to decide that the gap between his floor and ceiling values isn't enough to risk keeping him around.
True, plus if he can't make his 4th ST appearance due to numbness in his pitching hand, his current "nadir" value goes even lower.
 

VORP Speed

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Yes, but how does having his mouthpiece antagonize the Sox benefit Boras? I don't see the endgame.

Defending his player makes sense, but this isn't that.
Boras despises the Rays front office and all branches of that tree. They’ve been one of the biggest driving forces behind the re-thinking of ridiculous overpayment of free agents and discarding the old ways that were very lucrative for Boras. He antagonizes them every chance he gets. It’s really bad for team Boras to have Rays trained talent spreading into the big-money teams. If he can stir the pot and somehow weaken Bloom before he gets entrenched, it’s good for Boras.
 

FinanceAdvice

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We're in the dumbest timeline. Canceling my MLB.tv subscription after starting it in 2003. This is the dumbest, dumbest, dumbest thing. He's the best homegrown player since Yaz, and this is over money.
Let's face it! It's all over money. The damn freaking ownership with over one billion dollars are playing the Old Scrooge game! The evil empire doesn't have a problem with the luxury tax! I've been following the Red Sox since 1975 and this by far is the dumbest idiotic move imaginable. They are still my team but I wouldn't be surprised if they finished 4th in the AL East. To me it's all about pitching anyway. Let's hope Grateorol (SP?) can turn out to be a gem.
 

StuckOnYouk

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If we trade Mookie for Verdugo and a quality dodgers prospect, why not just cut Price out of the deal entirely and find a way by the deadline (Trading J.D, perhaps a health Price, Jackie, etc.) to ensure you sneak under the cap?

Making a trade now isn't the only way to get under the threshhold by the end of the year. We should be maximizing talent. If there is a disconnect (big IF) between ownership and Bloom, could that be it? Bloom would rather get the talent now and then figure out a way to get under the threshhold later?
 

InsideTheParker

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Let's face it! It's all over money. The damn freaking ownership with over one billion dollars are playing the Old Scrooge game! The evil empire doesn't have a problem with the luxury tax! I've been following the Red Sox since 1975 and this by far is the dumbest idiotic move imaginable. They are still my team but I wouldn't be surprised if they finished 4th in the AL East. To me it's all about pitching anyway. Let's hope Grateorol (SP?) can turn out to be a gem.
Hey, Mr. Finance Advice,
You need to do some more research before you post. For example, I think you haven't been following Brian Cashman's moves the last few years very closely. Also, your remarks seem to indicate an ignorance of the effect of the "luxury tax" on the ability of the Sox to sign Mr. Betts or any other pricy players going forward.
Yours sincerely,
ITP
 

thestardawg

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Without knowing the extent of what spooked them in the medicals, I don't know how people can say they should take a mid-level prospect in addition to Graterol. They should not take less value than they were originally seeking just because one of the pieces didn't pass inspection. Back to the house analogy - that's like being in the market for a 3 bed and when the inspection falls through your realtor starts showing you studio apartments. Get the value you were originally seeking or don't pull the trigger. There is no reason to help other teams win, just as they're not obligated to help us from under our luxury tax predicament.

I feel like if the Red Sox were of a mind to take less this deal would have been done yesterday. Maybe we made our bed CBT-wise and are about to lie in it.

edited for clarity
Because Graterol still has value. Add another viable piece and that should fairly compensate the Sox based on the original deal. Look I think the original deal is a steaming pile of moose crap too, but it is what it is.
 

DeadlySplitter

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it's very annoying Boras has inserted himself into this. the Red Sox need to get this trade as right as possible, go away.
 

54thMA

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As grateful as I am with this current ownership for bringing four WS titles to Boston, this trade tells me they are totally and utterly tone deaf.

It would be one thing if they were getting two can't miss prospects, but they are getting one guy who's already had TJ surgery who also has a shoulder and a weight issue, another guy with a bad back that from what I've read, hasn't even begun baseball type activity like, oh I don't know, swinging a bat, then throw in a character issue and you've got a total tire fire.

Now after the fact they have medical concerns and want to adjust/tweak the trade?

Do they honestly expect the fans to be happy with this trade, it's a disaster on a number of levels.

I understand the reasons for the trade and they weren't working from a position of strength, but they got fleeced like some small market huckleberries.
 

OCD SS

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If we trade Mookie for Verdugo and a quality dodgers prospect, why not just cut Price out of the deal entirely and find a way by the deadline (Trading J.D, perhaps a health Price, Jackie, etc.) to ensure you sneak under the cap?

Making a trade now isn't the only way to get under the threshhold by the end of the year. We should be maximizing talent. If there is a disconnect (big IF) between ownership and Bloom, could that be it? Bloom would rather get the talent now and then figure out a way to get under the threshhold later?
The team is better off getting under the cap now, and being sure of it. Trying to hold a fire sale in the middle of the season is a terrible idea and practically guarantees a worse return; if you thought the Sale and Eovaldi deals represented poor planning, this sort of hedging to get another couple months of Mookie in a Sox uni would be much worse. (And for the record, I heartily agree with a previous post, smart author and location forgotten in this mess, about how that narrative is facile and would’ve required stripping the team down to Mookie and a bunch of scrubs, but at least we’d have Mookie this year and coup then throw $400 M at him while we also start a rebuild).

If it turns out the Sox are competitive, they can add talent that meets the budget, as opposed to facing making budget forced trades while in contention. If they’re not in contention they can hold out for FMV for the players that might still be useful next year and beyond, which looks to me to be a better way to shorten any rebuilding/ bridge years.
 

Bellhorn

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I don't know Alex Verdugo. I have never met him. However, I was young once, and like most people, I did plenty of things that I would never dream of doing today. Things that I am not proud of and wish I had done differently. I am sure Alex Verdugo is no different. If this trade happens and Alex Verdugo is a Red Sox outfielder, I will judge him from that point forward.....Does he bust his butt? Is he a good teammate? Does he conduct himself respectfully on and off the field? Does he bleed Red Sox red? If these answers are Yes, I will root for him and cheer for him just like I have for Mookie. I encourage others to do the same.......It is not Alex Verdugo's fault the the Red Sox are trading Mookie Betts.
Edit: removed.
 
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pokey_reese

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I'm with you 100%. I already hate that this trade has to happen, and if it ends up serving as an opportunity for more virtue signaling from the woke brigade, it will be that much more annoying.
‘Virtue signaling’ is a phrase that should be used very carefully or not at all around here. I’ve read the whole thread and haven’t seen any, are you saying that’s happening? Or that people who say they don’t want to root for morally dubious players are disingenuous?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I'm with you 100%. I already hate that this trade has to happen, and if it ends up serving as an opportunity for more virtue signaling from the woke brigade, it will be that much more annoying.
You should perhaps go to the Verdugo thread. If you have and you are accusing other SOSH members of “virtue signaling,” you should post it there so that we can respond. If you are referring to a discussion you read elsewhere, you should probably make that clear. “More“ is a bit ambiguous.
 
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‘Virtue signaling’ is a phrase that should be used very carefully or not at all around here. I’ve read the whole thread and haven’t seen any, are you saying that’s happening? Or that people who say they don’t want to root for morally dubious players are disingenuous?
Should be an auto temp ban for using it. Same for cuck, safe space, and snowflake.
 

Captaincoop

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Being new to town, Bloom may not have been aware of how much the public’s aversion to Verdugo being present at an underage drunk-fest, where it is claimed that a girl got sexually abused by a teammate while he was outside doing something else and then sometime later that night the same girl got physically assaulted by 2 other girls as he watched, would be amplified by the fact that people hated the Mookie deal. Bloom therefore may not have communicated that incident to the owners, who would have been more likely to know that this incident would certainly be Shaughnessied.
Is the media really up in arms about Verdugo's incident, or is it SOSH that's worked up? I haven't heard a single Red Sox fan friend mention it in the real world. Nor have I seen anything about it in the few media pieces I've read so far.
 

Average Reds

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I'm with you 100%. I already hate that this trade has to happen, and if it ends up serving as an opportunity for more virtue signaling from the woke brigade, it will be that much more annoying.
That you find it "annoying" that people are concerned about Verdugo's involvement in the incident in question - and have attempted to trivialize it by using imbecilic right-wing sloganeering - says nothing complementary about you.

You want to have that conversation, take it to V&N. However, you'll need to bring your A game, because this kind of crap post won't cut it.
 

Average Reds

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Is the media really up in arms about Verdugo's incident, or is it SOSH that's worked up? I haven't heard a single Red Sox fan friend mention it in the real world. Nor have I seen anything about it in the few media pieces I've read so far.
I'm not in the Boston area, but I have heard nothing about this outside of SoSH.
 
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