Betts/Price to LA for Verdugo/Jeter Downs/TBA

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joe dokes

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I would argue that if Bloom is happy to accept flawed medical reports on the centerpiece of a deal for the 2nd best player in baseball, that he's way less prepared for his job than we were lead to believe.
And if he murdered a family in Ohio in their sleep, he should be in prison. But he probably didn't do that either.
 

Van Everyman

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I would argue that if Bloom is happy to accept flawed medical reports on the centerpiece of a deal for the 2nd best player in baseball, that he's way less prepared for his job than we were lead to believe.
Or, as I suspect is more likely the case, much like The Punto Trade, this is a lot less about what we get back in return than moving certain pieces (and their associated liabilities) out of the organization.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the return on this deal is not actually that important. As @JimD has argued very effectively, if trading Mookie's last year and half of Price's deal (out of the AL) allows them to effectively reset their tax situation and begin building for the post-DD era (including draft picks and the like that we'd be out of without the reset), than it's already mission accomplished. Whatever they get back that's actually worth something is gravy.

I know that seems like cold comfort when you're losing the face of the franchise and a postseason hero (albeit a surly one). But if there's anything I trust this ownership group to do it's to build a competitive club. They may flail around a bit in doing it. And they may make some PR blunders and drastically change course along the way. But they do not tread water or settle for mediocrity. If they were convinced that moving on from a player as good as Betts now was the best way to compete with the Yankees/Astors/etc. for a title in the next few years, I am inclined to trust them.

Four titles will do that.
 

dhappy42

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Since Betts’s positive value and Price’s negative value are roughly the same, why not trade them together for nothing in return? Especially if the main point is to clear payroll?
 
Jan 31, 2020
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Or, as I suspect is more likely the case, much like The Punto Trade, this is a lot less about what we get back in return than moving certain pieces (and their associated liabilities) out of the organization.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the return on this deal is not actually that important.
I can't get behind this logic. Yes, it allows the Sox to spend like crazy next year without penalty. But this is a top 3 player. You need to get something back for him other than a broken RP and a flawed outfielder with control and upside. Right now this trade isn't even as valuable as the Goldschmidt trade. That is insane. But casuals won't completely kill the deal because at least the team became more likable with David Price gone.
 

5dice

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But casuals won't completely kill the deal because at least the team became more likable with David Price gone.
No, casuals like you *are* killing the deal because they:
A. don't understand that Betts will test the market no matter what and are overvaluing what he would mean to the Sox this year
B. don't understand that the haul they are getting for Betts is based on *1 year* of Betts, not multiple years of Betts versus the years of team control coming back
C. nobody cares about David Price's likability given where we are re: cheating, poor play in 2019 and the mess of this offseason
 
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rajendra82

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This trade return is starting to look more and more like Allen Craig and Joe Kelly. If all it took then was Lackey, why did we have to throw in Mookie this time when just Price could have been enough?
 
Jan 31, 2020
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No, casuals like you *are* killing the deal because they:
A. don't understand that Betts will test the market no matter what and are overvaluing what he would mean to the Sox this year
B. don't understand that the haul they are getting for Betts is based on *1 year* of Betts, not multiple years of Betts versus the years of team control coming back
C. nobody cares about David Price
I'm a season ticket holder and have been for years. So I'm not sure how you can call me a casual. But okay. Junk is junk. You can dress it up any way you want to but its still junk.
 
Jan 31, 2020
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This trade return is starting to look more and more like Allen Craig and Joe Kelly. If all it took then was Lackey, why did we have to throw in Mookie this time when just Price could have been enough?
I mean it's not THAT bad. Then again Lackey wasn't a top 3 player in baseball.
 

OurF'ingCity

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This trade return is starting to look more and more like Allen Craig and Joe Kelly. If all it took then was Lackey, why did we have to throw in Mookie this time when just Price could have been enough?
Those two situations are not remotely comparable. Lackey was on an extremely team-friendly contract and Price is on an extremely team-unfriendly contract.
 

5dice

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I'm a season ticket holder and have been for years. So I'm not sure how you can call me a casual.
Sorry, "casual participant" of the SOSH message board, seeing as you joined a couple of days ago, given your many years of being a season ticket holder and overall "non-casualness."
 

E5 Yaz

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Sorry, "casual participant" of the SOSH message board, seeing as you joined a couple of days ago, given your many years of being a season ticket holder and overall "non-casualness."
You should have quit while you were behind
 

54thMA

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The Red Sox backed themselves into a financial corner here by making the classic mistake of trying to keep the 2018 WS winning band together, signing Pearce the MVP who got hot for a series, extending an injured Sale when they really didn't have to and resigning Eovaldi, the hero of a game they didn't even win. Paying players for past performance vs future performance is a classic overreach.

And sorry; if the reports are true that they offered Betts 10/300 he countered with 12/420, that tells me he really does not want to be here and is bound and determined to test the free agent waters, a right he's earned and he obviously wants to explore.

You can argue all you want that they did not get enough, but they were not dealing from a position of strength here.

Best of luck to you Mookie.
 

5dice

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And sorry; if the reports are true that they offered Betts 10/300 he countered with 12/420, that tells me he really does not want to be here and is bound and determined to test the free agent waters, a right he's earned and he obviously wants to explore.
That is everything. I still don't see how more people can't see or accept this.
 

joe dokes

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And sorry; if the reports are true that they offered Betts 10/300 he countered with 12/420, that tells me he really does not want to be here and is bound and determined to test the free agent waters, a right he's earned and he obviously wants to explore.
Unless he said, "And dont bother bidding when I become a FA," becoming a FA is not saying "I dont want to be here." It means "here" is tied for 1st with all the other places he'd consider being. He can only be in one place.
 

nighthob

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Those two situations are not remotely comparable. Lackey was on an extremely team-friendly contract and Price is on an extremely team-unfriendly contract.
On the other hand, they should have gotten more than garbage for Lackey. Agreeing to eat Allen Craig’s deal in order to get Joe Kelly was Cherington’s worst move.
 

bankshot1

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Mookie has every right in the world to see what he can get as a FA. But in a FA market how many teams will be willing to play for Mookie at 12/420? His market may be closer to Harper or Machado type contract, a 10/330-350 type deal which is within reasonable negotiating space of the Sox recent 10/300 offer.

Probably a very long shot.

In any case, in the absence of news pronouncing the patient dead, I imagine the current 3-way is undergoing some last minute surgery to save it.
 

nighthob

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how is Verdugo a junk return? put aside the potentially shitty intangibles and he is a promising rookie
With a really troubling injury that could render him unpromising. But I was referring to the Lackey deal. OFC was implying that Boston did better with the Lackey deal because he had a really team friendly contract. Except that their return was the right to pay Allen Craig $50 million or so so that they could acquire a wildly inconsistent relief pitcher.
 

GoDa

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That is everything. I still don't see how more people can't see or accept this.
I don't think that's really the issue.

Mookie is under contract for another of his prime years, right now. While it may be that he ultimately wants to get every last $$$ he can OR that he just wants to play part of his career in another location, I think 95% of Sox fans would've enjoyed watching him play this season and if nothing changed - understanding that paying $35m/yr for his age 34/35+ seasons is probably bad business - wished him well. Seeing him shipped out of town, in his prime, just to dump some of Price's contract (who isn't the worst pitcher in the world, btw) and the rest of Mookie's rubs people the wrong way. This doesn't make the team better - it just saves the owner money.

That's how I feel, at least.
 
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Tyrone Biggums

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That is everything. I still don't see how more people can't see or accept this.
It just seems like a humongous waste of resources to use your star player in a salary dump. Especially with the news last night.
 

SouthernBoSox

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how is Verdugo a junk return? put aside the potentially shitty intangibles and he is a promising rookie
He was a consensus top 30 prospect who put up 3WAR in 107 at bats as a 23 year old.

People don’t like the way he looks and there’s a horrible story out there in which he is, at best, one degree away from a sexual assault.

Meanwhile, his teammates and manager all have glowing reviews of the guy.
 

NomarsFool

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It would seem somewhat easier to decouple these two trades. David Price has some value. Okay, maybe you pay 60% of this salary instead of 50%. I don't know what the number is. But, you trade him to some team for their back-up A first baseman.

Then, let's talk about what kind of return you get for one year of the second best position player in baseball. When the Sox traded for Pedro, did they have more than one year of control on him? I can't remember. When they made that trade (as well as it worked out), I felt like as a fan that we gave up two good prospects.

Edit: I looked it up. When the Red Sox traded for Martinez, he was in the last year of his deal. He could have walked away as a FA after that one season.
 

54thMA

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Unless he said, "And dont bother bidding when I become a FA," becoming a FA is not saying "I dont want to be here." It means "here" is tied for 1st with all the other places he'd consider being. He can only be in one place.
If he wanted to be here, he would have taken 10/300, not counter with 12/420, years and a number he knows they are not going to agree to.

I could be wrong, but why do I have the feeling that if they were dumb enough to say "Ok sure, 12/420 it is" he'd come back with 14/500.

Again; he's earned the right to explore free agency and sell his services to the highest bidder.

And again; best of luck to him.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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I hate this trade and it sucks.

I understand this trade and it makes sense.

(These two sentences are not mutually exclusive.)
I understand why they did it. I understand the logic behind why they did it. But using Mookie to achieve the objective is really difficult to comprehend. In a sense its not fair to Verdugo. He's going to be compared to someone who in a couple years might already be closing in on Cooperstown. Health permitting.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Seeing him shipped out of town, in his prime, just to dump some of Price's contract (who isn't the worst pitcher in the world, btw) and the rest of Mookie's rubs people the wrong way.
I'm not a fan of the trade either (in concept or execution) but it isn't really true he was shipped out "just" to dump Price. If Price had won the Cy Young last year and was projected to put up 10 WAR this season, the Sox still would have traded Mookie. Including Price in the deal was just a way to kill two birds with one stone, not the impetus for trying to trade Mookie in the first place.
 

JimD

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It would seem somewhat easier to decouple these two trades. David Price has some value. Okay, maybe you pay 60% of this salary instead of 50%. I don't know what the number is. But, you trade him to some team for their back-up A first baseman.

Then, let's talk about what kind of return you get for one year of the second best position player in baseball.
There are multiple reports that Bloom has been trying to move Price all winter. If there was a slam-dunk move out there that would have allowed a deal for Mookie on his own merits, it would have been done.
 

Marbleheader

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I've thought for a while that Mookie will end up with Atlanta. I don't think it's anywhere near a sure thing that he will stay in LA.
 

Teachdad46

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This trade return is starting to look more and more like Allen Craig and Joe Kelly. If all it took then was Lackey, why did we have to throw in Mookie this time when just Price could have been enough?
We did not throw in Mookie. We threw in one year of Mookie. There's a world of difference between the two.
 

JimD

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I've thought for a while that Mookie will end up with Atlanta. I don't think it's anywhere near a sure thing that he will stay in LA.
I agree - if the Braves make a competitive offer, it's going to be quite the draw for him unless he only wants to maximize his dollars (and even then, I believe Georgia's income tax rate is comparable to Massachusetts and is far more favorable than California).
 

Teachdad46

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I don't think that's really the issue.

Mookie is under contract for another of his prime years, right now. While it may be that he ultimately wants to get every last $$$ he can OR that he just wants to play part of his career in another location, I think 95% of Sox fans would've enjoyed watching him play this season and if nothing changed - understanding that paying $35m/yr for his age 34/35+ seasons is probably bad business - wished him well. Seeing him shipped out of town, in his prime, just to dump some of Price's contract (who isn't the worst pitcher in the world, btw) and the rest of Mookie's rubs people the wrong way. This doesn't make the team better - it just saves the owner money.

That's how I feel, at least.
I dunno. I''m mixed on this. If you're going to pull my damn tooth then pull it already. Not sure I wanted to hear OB et al spend 30%+ of their time on the airwaves updating us on Mookie-based rumors all season long. Ugh. It hurts to even type that. I know this has zilch to do with value and Mookie's age 27 season and all but still.. moving on with a new plan with new management and manager (I presume) in place makes sense to me as far as getting back to the post season goes.
 

shepard50

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He was a consensus top 30 prospect who put up 3WAR in 107 at bats as a 23 year old.

People don’t like the way he looks and there’s a horrible story out there in which he is, at best, one degree away from a sexual assault.

Meanwhile, his teammates and manager all have glowing reviews of the guy.
There are questions of his character, his commitment and maturity...from his teammates.

From Baseball America's article recapping the trade...
While Verdugo’s talent is undeniable, his maturity and effort have long drawn scorn from coaches, scouts and even his own teammates, such as when Rich Hill harangued him in full view of reporters in the clubhouse. Verdugo will replace Betts as the Red Sox’s everyday right fielder, and his makeup will be put to the test in Boston
 

scottyno

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It would seem somewhat easier to decouple these two trades. David Price has some value. Okay, maybe you pay 60% of this salary instead of 50%. I don't know what the number is. But, you trade him to some team for their back-up A first baseman.

Then, let's talk about what kind of return you get for one year of the second best position player in baseball. When the Sox traded for Pedro, did they have more than one year of control on him? I can't remember. When they made that trade (as well as it worked out), I felt like as a fan that we gave up two good prospects.

Edit: I looked it up. When the Red Sox traded for Martinez, he was in the last year of his deal. He could have walked away as a FA after that one season.
He signed an extension within weeks of being traded for though, if the Dodgers thought they would have a good shot to extend Betts they'd have given up more.
 

JimD

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There are questions of his character, his commitment and maturity...from his teammates.

From Baseball America's article recapping the trade...
The Rich Hill harrangue happened in 2017. Articles from 2019 featured much more positive quotes from Dave Roberts and others about Verdugo. He was also popular with Dodgers fans, no doubt due to his Mexican heritage.
 

Danny_Darwin

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With a really troubling injury that could render him unpromising. But I was referring to the Lackey deal. OFC was implying that Boston did better with the Lackey deal because he had a really team friendly contract. Except that their return was the right to pay Allen Craig $50 million or so so that they could acquire a wildly inconsistent relief pitcher.
This is totally unrelated, but remember the way people used to talk about Kelly when he first came over? All objective evidence suggested that the guy was inconsistent at best as a starter, but to read SoSH, you'd think we were witnessing the second coming of Pedro Martinez. "HE THROWS 97!," they'd shout, as he once again got torched for five runs.

Sorry for the rant. Carry on.
 

Plympton91

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the kicker here that is dragging the deal down for the Sox is the perception they have to sell for financial reasons.
this is a really, really good and underrated point. Congrats on being the first one I’ve seen mention it.

To continue with the house with bad toilets example above, the Red Sox are a short-seller in this deal. Short-sellers never get fair market value.

Walk away.
 

Plympton91

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Those were also the days when your GM might give away a stud hitting prospect for a middle reliever because he couldn't be bothered to learn the players in his farm system.

Pass.
I thought the Thornburg trade was stupid as well. :)
 

OurF'ingCity

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This is totally unrelated, but remember the way people used to talk about Kelly when he first came over? All objective evidence suggested that the guy was inconsistent at best as a starter, but to read SoSH, you'd think we were witnessing the second coming of Pedro Martinez. "HE THROWS 97!," they'd shout, as he once again got torched for five runs.

Sorry for the rant. Carry on.
It's not totally unrelated because that's basically what the commentary (not on SoSH but in prospect rankings and the like) has been for Graterol. So Graterol is basically a more-injured Joe Kelly, yay.
 

Yaz4Ever

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Dodgers extended Muncy today which puts them slightly over the threshold. If they have to keep Pederson after his arbitration, they'll be looking to shed more money. Perhaps they send Pederson to us instead of Verdugo and send us Maeda? If so, I'd hope that a prospect (Gray/Ruiz?) is also included. Of course, that supposes that both the Angels and Twins deals are voided. Lots of moving parts.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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Dodgers extended Muncy today which puts them slightly over the threshold. If they have to keep Pederson after his arbitration, they'll be looking to shed more money. Perhaps they send Pederson to us instead of Verdugo and send us Maeda? If so, I'd hope that a prospect (Gray/Ruiz?) is also included. Of course, that supposes that both the Angels and Twins deals are voided. Lots of moving parts.
There really aren’t nearly that many moving parts
 

Mugsy's Jock

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The Red Sox backed themselves into a financial corner here by making the classic mistake of trying to keep the 2018 WS winning band together, signing Pearce the MVP who got hot for a series, extending an injured Sale when they really didn't have to and resigning Eovaldi, the hero of a game they didn't even win. Paying players for past performance vs future performance is a classic overreach.

And sorry; if the reports are true that they offered Betts 10/300 he countered with 12/420, that tells me he really does not want to be here and is bound and determined to test the free agent waters, a right he's earned and he obviously wants to explore.

You can argue all you want that they did not get enough, but they were not dealing from a position of strength here.

Best of luck to you Mookie.
THis. 100% This.

Hey everyone, can we PLEASE remember the following:
1. Unloading Price's contract is the third asset in the deal, and it's a big one. Price does not bring an asset back, he costs an asset to unload.
2. Waiting until the trade deadline would be stupid, because it would prevent the Sox from resetting against the cap and, more than likely, not generate any better a return.
3. And if the Sox are over the cap, the draft pick compensation they'd receive after Mookie walks is minuscule (a third-rounder, big whoop).
4. This is speculation on my part, but I think it's reasonable to assume that the Red Sox do not feel confident they can re-sign Mookie after he hits free agency. They've made him proposals and lived with him and his agent for 7-8 years now and ought to have a pretty good feel for this situation.

Any trade involving Mookie, is disappointing, but it sure as hell isn't stupid. It's the opposite of that.
 

Marciano490

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I don’t understand Henry’s statements about staying under the luxury tax threshold in the context of moving Price’s salary. It seems like an odd thing to announce the weakness of your bargaining position to potential trade partners before you even sit at the table.
 
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