Betts/Price to LA for Verdugo/Jeter Downs/TBA
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Whatever you think of this trade*, I can't credit the spin you've put on this here. John Henry isn't some hack that needs apologists. You can fault the trade, you can question his motives, but John Henry has earned the benefit of the doubt and that's putting it mildly. If in 2003 you'd been asked "will four rings in 15 years be OK?" you would have run into the backyard and started shooting off fireworks.
*I'm on the fence. I need to be sold on the return but I believe that 10 year contracts on huge money aren't worth it.
Yesterday I was excited about what a trade would do. Now I have an empty feeling. Hearing about Verdugo's past has reminded me how much of a pleasure it was watch and root for Mookie.
It's absolutely fair for you to make this claim. It's another thing altogether to state it as fact.
And let me be clear - I largely accept your premise here. I've always been dismayed by the mismatched expectations for owners (treating the team as a business) and players (who should have an allegiance to their "hometown" team.) In response, I've always been a huge advocate for players treating the game like a business and looking out for their interests. Which is why I have no problem with Mookie insisting that he make it to free agency so that he can maximize his next contract. Having said that, I'm realistic enough to understand that if, in fact, this is what happened (because we can't know that for certain) this trade was inevitable.
I'm pissed that the Sox so mismanaged their payroll that they needed to staple David Price to Mookie as a way out of their mess. So yeah, this is clearly on Henry. That said, I (and many others) accept the outcome because the Sox have been pretty clear for months that this was coming.
You want to insult me and others by claiming that our brains are poisoned by Moneyball? Show your work.
If only it were that easy ...
I'm not upset that your (justifiable, IMO) anger at losing a generational talent is causing your to lash out at the stupidity of it all. But (again, IMO) you don't get to declare that your way of coping with that loss marks you as the superior baseball intellect.
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True. Nonetheless, Cano was coming off a year in which he posted a 147 ops+ and 7.8 bWAR. Mookie is coming off a year in which he posted a 135 ops+ and 6.8 bWAR. So it's not a terrible comparison.
Remember when Henry called out CHB a couple weeks ago and walked back his mandate? I memba.
Such a crock of shit. Maybe Verdugo grew up and will become Mookie lite. Maybe this trade ends up working out and we're talking about the impending HOF induction of Brusdar in 2038. But holy crap...you really needed to include Price in this deal? I'm pretty sure the Twins would have taken on Price at 14 million a year and the Sox could have gotten more for Betts. This screams of desperation to get under the tax.
Such a crock of shit. Maybe Verdugo grew up and will become Mookie lite. Maybe this trade ends up working out and we're talking about the impending HOF induction of Brusdar in 2038. But holy crap...you really needed to include Price in this deal? I'm pretty sure the Twins would have taken on Price at 14 million a year and the Sox could have gotten more for Betts. This screams of desperation to get under the tax.
Depends on how "significantly less" it is. Because apparently the Red Sox offered, what, 10/320 and Mookie turned it down, insisting all along that he's determined to go to free agency. If he suddenly turns around and signs 11/350 (which I suppose would qualify as "significantly less than 12/420) with the Dodgers before reaching free agency, it's not the Red Sox that have some explaining to do, it's Mookie.
He wasn't going to sign an extension, so at the end of the day even if the package isnt what you expected for Betts, its certainly better than the pick they would have received after he left. And you got rid of Price. And, even though I doubt it happens, it gives the flexibility to sign him after this season.
It hasn’t “poisoned our brains”; it has made us realize that if we want to understand the business of the sport, we need to understand the thinking of the decision-makers. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying the game and tuning out that stuff, but if that’s your preferred way to follow sports, I’m not sure why you’re participating in a discussion forum during the off-season.
Or maybe he just wanted out of Boston or the AL East so he set his number high enough to make it nearly impossible for the Sox to consider.
You always make statements like this with absolutely no basis in reality. How about sharing with us how you know this.
My point is, once you have a top-5 talent, that asset is more valuable than the draft picks. The odds of the draft pick penalty resulting in missing out on a Mookie-level talent are too small to calculate. Keep the talent if you have the money to pay the talent. We fans have paid the owners billions of dollars since they bought the team. I expect them to use that money to keep their talent. Mookie >>>> 10-slot draft penalty.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2020/01/11/red-sox-agenda-slash-payroll-according-john-henry-media-driven-noise/sjq5dWD30McxaaDucHHYnM/story.html?outputType=amp
Look at comparable pitchers to Price. You really think they couldn't find a taker for David Price at 14 million a year? Not exactly a stretch to assume. This is a team thats paying Jake Odorizzi almost 18 million this year. They just signed Donaldson. They're going for it.
I believe you misunderstood the question.
You were asked to provide support for your contention that the Sox had a sure path to getting a better return if they traded Price to the Twins (subsidizing half of his contract) and de-linked him from any Mookie trade.
Just catching up with the thread after sleeping through all the drama. Glad to find this post near the end, as it sums up my views pretty well.
Maybe I'm jaded, maybe I'm just mellowing with age, but I've been numb to the "business" of sports for a while. I just can't over-react one way or the other to anything any more. Disappointed that Mookie and Price are gone, but I get it and it's not the end of the world. They're still going to play the games and I'm still going to watch because I love baseball.
The Twins just spent cash on Odorizzi via qualifying offer. Price is a better pitcher than Odorizzi. I don't really think anyone is going to dispute that aside from last season. The Twins are paying Homer freaking Bailey who was legitimately almost out of baseball last off season 7 million. They were interested in a veteran pitcher. Which is where Maeda comes in. The same guy who couldn't stick in the Dodgers rotation last year. The Sox could have also dumped him to the Angels. You also could have held Price at the deadline and traded him off. You do not use your best freaking player to dump a contract.
I don’t understand why people speak in absolutes. Had the Sox made different decisions there would have been a chance to resign him when he became a FA. But they made those decisions and felt compelled to dump him.
I think if they could have dealt a subsidized Price on his own, they would have; it seems like they’ve been trying to do that all winter, with no takers. I think we have to assume that the Twins preferred KM.
Edit: replying to Tyrone
Edit: replying to Tyrone
Or they felt compelled to trade him because, in the business of baseball, they had no intention of paying him close to 12/$420M. So they decided to be proactive and get two good prospects and dump Price’s salary. Start the next chapter a year early with some payroll flexibility.
I had no issues with this (feel like they had to do it after all the other spending mistakes) and was kind of excited to watch them rebuild, but this stuff about Verdugo has already killed my interest.
That’s certainly a possibility. I don’t know why my initial post about being sad that Mookie is gone was challenged. I fully understand the business aspect of this. Doesn’t mean I have to like that Mookie has been jettisoned. I guess that’s controversial somehow.
It was really fun watching Mookie Betts play every day. Given the return, it would have been better just watching him play 162 more times and then seeing what happened at the end of the year.
They could have dumped Price anywhere if they were willing to eat half his salary. They could do the same with Eovaldi at some point.
I get why it made sense for John Henry to make this all happen, and I blame Bloom 0% for being forced to make lemonade here, but I don't give half a fuck about John Henry's extra tens of millions of dollars (he's worth 3 billion). Especially when I've been (like thousands of other Sox fans) spending almost $500 of my much smaller income every time I take my kids to Fenway. This summer we're going to the beach instead.
Knowing that creep is benefiting from this is going to make watching this season less fun. I wonder if he's prepared for how much well-deserved blowback he and the rest of the owners are about to feel.
They could have dumped Price anywhere if they were willing to eat half his salary. They could do the same with Eovaldi at some point.
I get why it made sense for John Henry to make this all happen, and I blame Bloom 0% for being forced to make lemonade here, but I don't give half a fuck about John Henry's extra tens of millions of dollars (he's worth 3 billion). Especially when I've been (like thousands of other Sox fans) spending almost $500 of my much smaller income every time I take my kids to Fenway. This summer we're going to the beach instead.
Knowing that creep is benefiting from this is going to make watching this season less fun. I wonder if he's prepared for how much well-deserved blowback he and the rest of the owners are about to feel.
On an emotional level, I hate it.
On a rational level, I somewhat understand it. Personally, I would have kept Mookie until mid season at least and given this roster one more run. My guess is no one would take Price for peanuts and there was no other way to reset.
It's a really tough spot for a new GM to step in to. I don't envy him.
I will root for Mookie the rest of his career, one of my all time favorite players in any sport.
On a rational level, I somewhat understand it. Personally, I would have kept Mookie until mid season at least and given this roster one more run. My guess is no one would take Price for peanuts and there was no other way to reset.
It's a really tough spot for a new GM to step in to. I don't envy him.
I will root for Mookie the rest of his career, one of my all time favorite players in any sport.
I agree Bloom is 100% blameless here. I get why the Sox did it. But you put your organization behind the 8 ball by telling everyone what your actual offseason goal was. Then you try and walk it back. In my eyes this trade doesn't tell me anything about Bloom good or bad.
Entirely possible. Boston certainly isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. I would be surprised if he signs for significantly less than 400 million before hitting free agency, but LA basically has a full year to woo him and give him their best recruiting pitch.
I would guess they were one of the two or three teams that were favorites to land him, strictly because they could outspend almost any team if they chose to do so. If he plays well and enjoys it there, I would be surprised if he leaves LA.
Are we all in agreement on a few basic facts, namely: (1) The Red Sox offered Mookie a 10 year deal worth at least $300 million, and Mookie turned it down, and (2) Mookie has always made it clear that he's determined to go to free agency, (3) the Red Sox needed to shed a lot of salary in order to get under the luxury tax threshold, (4) the penalties for being over for them at this point aren't just financial; they're real in terms of drafting, etc., and (5) one thing you cannot accuse this Red Sox ownership of being is "cheap" (see below), because they've always invested heavily in the team, which has resulted in 4 World Series titles? Those are understood to be actual facts, right?
Now, while they may not have been "cheap", they don't always make the *best* decisions. But it's not like they aren't willing to spend huge dollars. Here's where they rank in MLB payroll since 2003:
2003: #6
2004: #2
2005: #2
2006: #2
2007: #2
2008: #5
2009: #6
2010: #2
2011: #3
2012: #2
2013: #3
2014: #5
2015: #5
2016: #5
2017: #4
2018: #2
2019: #4
I mean, year in and year out, they're one of baseball's top-5 spending teams. In 7 of the 17 years, they were #2, only behind the Yankees (or, amazingly, the Giants, in 2018). One thing fans cannot be critical of is that they are "cheap". They objectively are not THAT. They may not make the best decisions (Pablo, Hanley, Price, Sale's extension, Rusney, etc.), but they do spend money on the team.
If those facts above truly are facts, then it's absolutely reasonable for the Sox to trade these guys away. People need to understand that, as sucky as it is (and it's majorly sucky). Getting under the tax is very important for the team moving forward. Yes they made their own bed by spending some money unwisely. No doubt about that. But it is what it is. And Mookie is absolutely determined to go to free agency in hopes of getting more than a $400 million deal. So the Sox were only getting one more year out of him before they could have lost him and only gotten a 4th round draft pick as compensation. This way they get out from under Price's contract and add two players who have very significant upside baseball-wise (we'll save the Verdugo morality questions for the other thread and stick to baseball here), and put themselves in good long-term position to win and even re-sign Mookie after 2020, should they then be in a position to make such a move. Because the penalties were, what, getting upwards of like 42%, which would mean that a $400 million deal for Mookie would actually be costing them $568 million. Or something like that anyway. Real money, even for billionaires.
I think any fair evaluation of this move has to be understood with these facts in mind.
Now, while they may not have been "cheap", they don't always make the *best* decisions. But it's not like they aren't willing to spend huge dollars. Here's where they rank in MLB payroll since 2003:
2003: #6
2004: #2
2005: #2
2006: #2
2007: #2
2008: #5
2009: #6
2010: #2
2011: #3
2012: #2
2013: #3
2014: #5
2015: #5
2016: #5
2017: #4
2018: #2
2019: #4
I mean, year in and year out, they're one of baseball's top-5 spending teams. In 7 of the 17 years, they were #2, only behind the Yankees (or, amazingly, the Giants, in 2018). One thing fans cannot be critical of is that they are "cheap". They objectively are not THAT. They may not make the best decisions (Pablo, Hanley, Price, Sale's extension, Rusney, etc.), but they do spend money on the team.
If those facts above truly are facts, then it's absolutely reasonable for the Sox to trade these guys away. People need to understand that, as sucky as it is (and it's majorly sucky). Getting under the tax is very important for the team moving forward. Yes they made their own bed by spending some money unwisely. No doubt about that. But it is what it is. And Mookie is absolutely determined to go to free agency in hopes of getting more than a $400 million deal. So the Sox were only getting one more year out of him before they could have lost him and only gotten a 4th round draft pick as compensation. This way they get out from under Price's contract and add two players who have very significant upside baseball-wise (we'll save the Verdugo morality questions for the other thread and stick to baseball here), and put themselves in good long-term position to win and even re-sign Mookie after 2020, should they then be in a position to make such a move. Because the penalties were, what, getting upwards of like 42%, which would mean that a $400 million deal for Mookie would actually be costing them $568 million. Or something like that anyway. Real money, even for billionaires.
I think any fair evaluation of this move has to be understood with these facts in mind.
It is in no way a fact that Mookie was not willing to re-sign in Boston. He was 10 months away from free agency, he wasn't giving the Sox a 25% discount from his alleged asking price in January.
That doesn't mean he wanted to leave.
That doesn't mean he wanted to leave.
I never said "he wanted to leave". Just that he wanted to go to free agency. Am I wrong about that? I thought that has been well-understood.
Your post stated as fact that the Sox were only going to get one more year out of him and then lose him for nothing but a compensatory pick. That is not a fact.
This. Essentially got two young players with significant upside and gave up 3-4 months of Mookie. I liked Price more than most, but the next 3 are not pretty.
resets are tough. This one may be one of the easier ones. Still a ton of offense on the team and pitching was/is always the issue.
I had imagined the Twins were a good fit for Price months ago too, but it’s far more obvious that a straight trade for Price didn’t line up there for whatever reason, rather than the scenario you suggest, which is that it didn’t occur to either of it.
Twins need someone durable, cheap and who helps them get past the Yankees in the postseason. Maeda has the first two qualities over Price, and likely the third too, if deployed well, since he’s very good on RHH.
The trade is crushing for all the reasons people have mentioned, and it’s indeed going to be hard to root for John Henry’s tax shelter this year. But Graterol is a pretty exciting get. A 99-mph sinker with absurd movement is a very unique pitch in today’s game.
I hope he resigns. If not then the Sox will have received a very underwhelming package. It's tough to immediately evaluate a trade with prospects. However, this is on John Henry, not Bloom. I'm assuming that Graterdol, the new #1 prospect in the system starts the year in Pawtucket and Weber begins as the 5th starter? On another note, if the Sox were able to actually develop starting pitching would it have come to this?
This debacle is the consequence of the failure to develop quality starting pitching post Lester (and Buchholz, sort of), with nothing in the pipeline even now, hence the big contracts to Price, Sale, and Eovaldi. The credit card bill has come due, with interest.
Ok, well my point was that IF he left, they'd only get a compensatory pick. It's been well-known that he's been determined to go to free agency. So essentially they're trading one year of him in order to upgrade from a possible fourth round pick to Verdugo + Graterol. And of course, unless Mookie does a 180 and decides to sign early with LA and NOT go to free agency, the Red Sox still have a chance to sign him after 2020. If they can swing that, then they will have managed to get under the luxury tax (and out from under those steep penalties), add Verdugo and Graterol, *and* have Mookie for the long-term.
I'm pretty sure that if they had kept him for 2020, there's almost no way they could/would have signed him long-term given the luxury tax implications.
That's what I've been thinking. If they were able to develop an actual starter, which I suppose E-Rod is a decent example of, Eovaldi would be wearing an Astros uniform right now.
Actually, I think it'll be Mookie who will have a lot of explaining to do, if anything. But really nobody needs to explain anything. Mookie is entitled to play where he wants to play -- that's what free agency means -- and Henry & Co. are entitled to make the best decisions for the future of the organization in light of what they know about Mookie's intentions.
All this crap about carrying John Henry's water is making me goddamn cranky. I'm a Sanders/Warren Democrat. My instinctive reaction to billionaire businessmen is to hate their guts until given a good reason not to. But this is not a case of a tycoon exploiting downtrodden labor. This is two rich men running strategy on each other. Mookie decided to go to free agency. Why? To maximize the return on his talent. Henry decided to trade him to the Dodgers. Why? To maximize the return on his talent. Why is one a betrayal, and the other perfectly OK?
I'm of two very different minds.
On the one hand, I get the arguments about not being able to sign Betts and salvaging a return for him now. I get that Price is 35, injury prone and even taking into account his incredible accomplishments in 2018 and that his teammates seemed to love him, a tremendous dickhead. I also get that the two prospects have real upside. And the detrimental impacts of being over the tax line.
But all that knowledge doesn't shake the bottom line fact that the Sox just parted with one of the very best players in the game for financial reason. Damn, it's smacks of Babe Freaking Ruth, not that I am equating the two players. One can explain, rationalize and even empathize with the predicament the Sox were in but Mookie Betts is a rare, foundational talent, and he was so much fun to watch. When he was either slumping or out of the line-up, the Sox had way less juice. Now that juice is gone (and dream on if you think he's coming back voluntarily), and one way or the other, the move was self-inflicted.
It's a really hard day to be excited about baseball. One wonders what Fenway's stands will look like this season.
On the one hand, I get the arguments about not being able to sign Betts and salvaging a return for him now. I get that Price is 35, injury prone and even taking into account his incredible accomplishments in 2018 and that his teammates seemed to love him, a tremendous dickhead. I also get that the two prospects have real upside. And the detrimental impacts of being over the tax line.
But all that knowledge doesn't shake the bottom line fact that the Sox just parted with one of the very best players in the game for financial reason. Damn, it's smacks of Babe Freaking Ruth, not that I am equating the two players. One can explain, rationalize and even empathize with the predicament the Sox were in but Mookie Betts is a rare, foundational talent, and he was so much fun to watch. When he was either slumping or out of the line-up, the Sox had way less juice. Now that juice is gone (and dream on if you think he's coming back voluntarily), and one way or the other, the move was self-inflicted.
It's a really hard day to be excited about baseball. One wonders what Fenway's stands will look like this season.
For everyone raging at John Henry being cheap or not caring about how much money he has: please name the teams that constantly live above the luxury tax. You can say a lot of things about Henry, but one thing he isn’t is cheap. He has invested in this team and sometimes so much so to a fault. Every big market team that has gone above the LT has gone below it to reset and then spent again. The Red Sox will as well.
It's not a fact that they were certain to lose him, but it's a fact that they were going to find themselves in a position where losing him was highly likely.
I agree for the most part Henry has been a good owner. But why not do all of this last July when everyone with half a brain knew that the Sox weren't going to be in it? Who knows what they could have gotten by dangling JD JBJ Moreland the pen arms etc... now you're in a situation where the Sox have no manager, no superstar player, and the feeling around this team sucks. 2019 felt like an absolute drain and 2020 could have had a different narrative to it. But whats done is done and If you're going to punt 2020 its time to start listening to offers on Workman Barnes JD etc...
Name one team that traded a HOF player in his prime to get under the luxury tax. Henry was cheap this time, considering the cost in talent to his team.
I'd like to know who's going to fill in Price's 150 IP before I decide if I'm not sad to see him go..
And not only that, he's managed to parlay the big spending into actual titles which a lot of other big spending teams have not been able to do.
It sucks that the game has come to the point where a guy like Betts shouldn't stay in one organization for his entire career because one organization (that cares about winning) can't carry a player like that anymore for his entire career. But it's reality. World Series titles aren't won in fantasy land.
Imagine the utter suckitude of being an Angels fan...
Also, I was a little surprised by the shock over this. I must read the main board a lot more than a lot of people. This has been staring us in the face for 2 months and been an imminent reality for 2 weeks. My angus was well peppered....
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