Better off with him? Or without him? The Kyrie Irving poll:

Wit or witout?

  • C's are better With

  • C's are better Without


Results are only viewable after voting.

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think the idea that the Celtics have the most talent in the East should be put to rest. When going against either Toronto or Milwaukee, Kyrie is not the best player on the floor. Probably could say the same about Philly, but Embiid is still just in his 3rd season. All 3 opponents have gotten markedly better since last season. And while we would all love for the Celtics to recapture the energy of those first 50-60 games from last season (when Kyrie was healthy and clearly the best player on the floor for them nearly every night), I do believe the Celtics run may have been a bit of a mirage.
The Cs may have the most talent of anyone in the East but that is in the aggregate and that doesn't help as much as having a top heavy roster like PHI or even MIL (though MIL is better this year), particularly in the playoffs when the rotations shorten.

And from an on-court perspective, I've mentioned this before, but to my eyes the Cs biggest problem is that they are being exploited versus mismatches on the defensive end on a far more consistent basis that they are exploiting mismatches on the offensive end.

I.e., it looks like the Cs opponents have been generating better shots than the Cs are generating.
 

Big John

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Milwaukee, Toronto and Indiana are playing much better team basketball, so sure, they are generating better offense. The Sixers are not, which is one reason why the Celtics have beaten them consistently. Jimmy Butler's ego is just as much a problem for the Sixers as Kyrie's ego is for the Celtics.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Milwaukee, Toronto and Indiana are playing much better team basketball, so sure, they are generating better offense. The Sixers are not, which is one reason why the Celtics have beaten them consistently. Jimmy Butler's ego is just as much a problem for the Sixers as Kyrie's ego is for the Celtics.
Butler has only played in the last 2 games each team met......the Celtics have won 8 of the previous 10 meetings prior to Butler even being there.
 

Big John

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Sure, he's not the only reason, but the Sixers are 0-2 against the Celtics with Butler. Like Kyrie, Butler has to be "the man" and take the big shots. Maybe that will change a little now that the Sixers have Harris but I doubt it.
 
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bosox79

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Sure, he's not the only reason, but the Sixers are 0-2 against the Celtics with Butler. Like Kyrie, Butler has to be "the man" and take the big shots. Maybe that will change a little now that the Sixers have Harris but I doubt it.
The way this team is build, I want Kyrie being the man and taking the shots. The Sixers are a different story.

The Celtics are a very deep team, they are not a top heavy one. Usually that leads to results in the regular season, not the post season. This season, it doesn't seem to be helping during the regular season either.

This team needs a 2nd star that is a top 15-20 player in the league. The Celtics probably don't have a consensus 2nd best player. Our 2nd best player probably doesn't crack the top 30 either. Someone said there was a talent disparity between Portland and Boston and I don't see it. KI is slightly better than Lilliard and McCollum is better than anyone else on Boston. Boston has a bunch of starting quality players but none of those players strike me as "2nd best on a championship team,' at least not atm.

They have Kyrie and a bunch of 3s, 4s and 5s.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The way this team is build, I want Kyrie being the man and taking the shots. The Sixers are a different story.

The Celtics are a very deep team, they are not a top heavy one. Usually that leads to results in the regular season, not the post season. This season, it doesn't seem to be helping during the regular season either.

This team needs a 2nd star that is a top 15-20 player in the league. The Celtics probably don't have a consensus 2nd best player. Our 2nd best player probably doesn't crack the top 30 either. Someone said there was a talent disparity between Portland and Boston and I don't see it. KI is slightly better than Lilliard and McCollum is better than anyone else on Boston. Boston has a bunch of starting quality players but none of those players strike me as "2nd best on a championship team,' at least not atm.

They have Kyrie and a bunch of 3s, 4s and 5s.
You are correct but the bigger problem is that they have at least 3 guys who think they should be the #2, one guy who would have been the #2 in his younger days; another guy who was signed to be #2 but isn't physically up to it; and a guy who thinks he's the #2 at crunch time.
 

bosox79

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You are correct but the bigger problem is that they have at least 3 guys who think they should be the #2, one guy who would have been the #2 in his younger days; another guy who was signed to be #2 but isn't physically up to it; and a guy who thinks he's the #2 at crunch time.
And it sucks because there isn't really a way out of it. People keep talking about all these super valuable assets we have but we don't really have those either. Half the teams in the league are probably positioned just as well as Boston. The Memphis pick could be nice.

We have Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown going into a contract year, the Memphis pick and a bunch of mid to late 1st rounders. One of those has a chance of being more but the Kings are not cooperating.

It's like the window closed before it opened. Maybe that's why I'm not really disappointed with this season and think there's a lot of Felgerism going on. I see a 50 win team that is on pace to win 50 games.
 

Kliq

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The way this team is build, I want Kyrie being the man and taking the shots. The Sixers are a different story.

The Celtics are a very deep team, they are not a top heavy one. Usually that leads to results in the regular season, not the post season. This season, it doesn't seem to be helping during the regular season either.

This team needs a 2nd star that is a top 15-20 player in the league. The Celtics probably don't have a consensus 2nd best player. Our 2nd best player probably doesn't crack the top 30 either. Someone said there was a talent disparity between Portland and Boston and I don't see it. KI is slightly better than Lilliard and McCollum is better than anyone else on Boston. Boston has a bunch of starting quality players but none of those players strike me as "2nd best on a championship team,' at least not atm.

They have Kyrie and a bunch of 3s, 4s and 5s.
Kyrie is a more efficient scorer, but Lillard is a better athlete, more consistent and appears to be about 10x as good of a teammate and leader as Irving.

I also think Al is better than McCollum.
 

bosox79

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Kyrie is a more efficient scorer, but Lillard is a better athlete, more consistent and appears to be about 10x as good of a teammate and leader as Irving.

I also think Al is better than McCollum.
I could see someone preferring Lilliard over KI and Al over McCollum. I just don't think one team is materially better than the other. They have similar talent levels at the moment. I do think if both teams put the same players on the court next season, Boston would be better.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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And it sucks because there isn't really a way out of it. People keep talking about all these super valuable assets we have but we don't really have those either. Half the teams in the league are probably positioned just as well as Boston. The Memphis pick could be nice.

We have Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown going into a contract year, the Memphis pick and a bunch of mid to late 1st rounders. One of those has a chance of being more but the Kings are not cooperating.

It's like the window closed before it opened. Maybe that's why I'm not really disappointed with this season and think there's a lot of Felgerism going on. I see a 50 win team that is on pace to win 50 games.
Yes other teams have assets that are equal (or maybe better) than JT and JB, but none of those teams are going to move them because it wouldn't do them any good.

The better way to think about it is this: no team has moveable assets and a desire to move than can top what the Cs have to offer.

One other thing: there's an age old question of whether players develop better by getting lots of playing time and putting up numbers on bad teams or having to fight for playing time and touches on good teams. It's an interesting question. I have no doubt JB would be putting up something like 16/8 at a minimum if he were on a lottery team.
 

bowiac

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FWIW, Nurkic has quietly had a breakout season, and is comfortably better than CJ at this point I think. The development both as a passer and as a free throw shooter has been impressive.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think the fundamental question for Ainge and us is this: Do you go all in with Kyrie and Davis (or a tiny chance at Durant) or do you decide he isn't worth all of the drama and, by extension, one of the other two aren't worth going all in for and instead continue to build around Tatum/Brown.

To me the answer is clear- you try to keep Irving and add another star even at the expense of Tatum/other assets. The youth movement may be more enjoyable from a fan perspective but Irving + another star is the only realistic scenario that gets you at least an outside chance at banner 18.

Of course, Irving may already have made that decision for Ainge.
 

bosox79

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One other thing: there's an age old question of whether players develop better by getting lots of playing time and putting up numbers on bad teams or having to fight for playing time and touches on good teams. It's an interesting question. I have no doubt JB would be putting up something like 16/8 at a minimum if he were on a lottery team.
I could see Jaylen scoring 20 a game on decent efficiency for a bad team. I just don't see him offering much else. He's a 3 and D guy who can drive a little and get to the line. I've always compared him to a Corey Maggette with a 3 point shot that plays defense. He's a considerably worse FT shooter though and I don't think we know Jaylen Brown's true talent level beyond the arc. His first 2 1/2+ years in the league he's shot .341, .395 and now .319. I'm pretty sure you were the one who made the FT% posts so I don't have to convince you. That's a very good player but not worth close to the max which Jaylen will get. It took Butler awhile to include his teammates more so maybe Jaylen will be a late bloomer too but I'm not holding my breath.

Did Oladipo get the max? I guess it's possible Jaylen gets less but the Otto Porter deal makes me think otherwise.
 

bosox79

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I think the fundamental question for Ainge and us is this: Do you go all in with Kyrie and Davis (or a tiny chance at Durant) or do you decide he isn't worth all of the drama and, by extension, one of the other two aren't worth going all in for and instead continue to build around Tatum/Brown.

To me the answer is clear- you try to keep Irving and add another star even at the expense of Tatum/other assets. The youth movement may be more enjoyable from a fan perspective but Irving + another star is the only realistic scenario that gets you at least an outside chance at banner 18.

Of course, Irving may already have made that decision for Ainge.
If they can't land AD or Durant, do they go after Beal? Can Beal and Kyrie work together? Are there any other possibilities? There's always the chance someone becomes available but what are the possibilities currently available?
 

bosox79

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FWIW, Nurkic has quietly had a breakout season, and is comfortably better than CJ at this point I think. The development both as a passer and as a free throw shooter has been impressive.
I said this in another thread re Vucevic, but a trend I've noticed around the league is the rising assists totals of bigs, especially international bigs. I'm guessing it is directly related to the 3 pointer. I wouldn't say it's becoming the norm, but big men who can pass aren't rare nowadays.
 

nighthob

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I could see Jaylen scoring 20 a game on decent efficiency for a bad team. I just don't see him offering much else. He's a 3 and D guy who can drive a little and get to the line. I've always compared him to a Corey Maggette with a 3 point shot that plays defense. He's a considerably worse FT shooter though and I don't think we know Jaylen Brown's true talent level beyond the arc. His first 2 1/2+ years in the league he's shot .341, .395 and now .319. I'm pretty sure you were the one who made the FT% posts so I don't have to convince you. That's a very good player but not worth close to the max which Jaylen will get. It took Butler awhile to include his teammates more so maybe Jaylen will be a late bloomer too but I'm not holding my breath.
In fairness to Brown he’s now as old as Butler was when a rookie, so I think the poor man’s Jimmy Butler is still the best comp for him (because he’s a much better defender than Maggette ever was).

Did Oladipo get the max? I guess it's possible Jaylen gets less but the Otto Porter deal makes me think otherwise.
There’s no chance that Brown doesn’t get a max offer if Boston holds on to him. Because if they do bet the house on Davis everyone will know that the Celtics can’t afford to keep him (they aren’t spending $140 million on their starting five) and he’ll be a low cost S&T transaction for them. Which is why I suspect that his Celtics career might end as soon as draft night.
 

bowiac

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I said this in another thread re Vucevic, but a trend I've noticed around the league is the rising assists totals of bigs, especially international bigs. I'm guessing it is directly related to the 3 pointer. I wouldn't say it's becoming the norm, but big men who can pass aren't rare nowadays.
This is interesting. I had not noticed this!

 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I could see Jaylen scoring 20 a game on decent efficiency for a bad team. I just don't see him offering much else. He's a 3 and D guy who can drive a little and get to the line. I've always compared him to a Corey Maggette with a 3 point shot that plays defense. He's a considerably worse FT shooter though and I don't think we know Jaylen Brown's true talent level beyond the arc. His first 2 1/2+ years in the league he's shot .341, .395 and now .319. I'm pretty sure you were the one who made the FT% posts so I don't have to convince you. That's a very good player but not worth close to the max which Jaylen will get. It took Butler awhile to include his teammates more so maybe Jaylen will be a late bloomer too but I'm not holding my breath.

Did Oladipo get the max? I guess it's possible Jaylen gets less but the Otto Porter deal makes me think otherwise.
to answer your question, no Oladipo did not get the max. OKC gave him a 4/$84M extension after 3 games that was roundly criticized as an overpay but was one of the better bargains in the NBA until he got hurt.

I think JB would have developed more quickly if he got a lot of touches (e.g., played on a bad team). IMO, I think it's hard to develop a lot of the "basketball skills" that he is criticized for not having without touches - that is, to the extent these things can be developed at 20 years old.
 

tbrown_01923

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I am leaning towards moving on... They just play better / harder when Kyrie is not on the court. I don't know how they improve the team if he is not with them. Who knows maybe he will ball and trust his teammates in the payoffs and Iwill change my mind again.
 

nighthob

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Unfortunately I think that Boston has to start making post-Irving plans if his body language is any guide. Given that all they gave up in the deal was the opportunity to draft Shai Gilgeous-Alexander it was the right move to make. If not for misfortune (the injuries) it probably would have worked out.
 

The Social Chair

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Put me in the move on from Kyrie camp. He seems toxic. He brought the Wyc/Danny/Brad Celtics a Cavs level of dysfunction.

I agree things are different if Hayward doesn't get injured but he did.
 
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MillarTime

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He’s probably leaving on his own at this point any way, but after the way this season has gone, the thought of giving Kyrie $200m+ is downright frightening. Think they have to move on.
 

BigSoxFan

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Let's, for the sake of argument, assume they move on.

That means no AD.

Where do they go from there?
It’s the Tatum/Brown show and you try to bring Horford back and hope Hayward shows material improvement.

Then, you hold tight on the draft picks and wait for a good opportunity to trade the Memphis pick for an impact guy.
 

bosockboy

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To me it seems pretty clear that Kyrie wanted to leave Cleveland to be a Batman, but he’s Robin. Scottie Pippen. A great #2 but badly miscast as a #1 star and a team leader.

It’s an experiment that was worth doing but didn’t work. Move on.

I’d try and move Brown/picks for Beal. Beal and Tatum are both St Louis kids and get along well. Those two and a healthy Hayward you could do worse with.
 

Kliq

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To me it seems pretty clear that Kyrie wanted to leave Cleveland to be a Batman, but he’s Robin. Scottie Pippen. A great #2 but badly miscast as a #1 star and a team leader.

It’s an experiment that was worth doing but didn’t work. Move on.

I’d try and move Brown/picks for Beal. Beal and Tatum are both St Louis kids and get along well. Those two and a healthy Hayward you could do worse with.
This goes back to my point upthread that Kyrie is not a primary option for a championship contending team. Look at the alpha play by Harden tonight when things started getting close and compare that to what Kyrie has done since the ASG.
 

The Social Chair

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This goes back to my point upthread that Kyrie is not a primary option for a championship contending team. Look at the alpha play by Harden tonight when things started getting close and compare that to what Kyrie has done since the ASG.

You might have trouble finding any Harden playoff heroics.
 

bosockboy

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This goes back to my point upthread that Kyrie is not a primary option for a championship contending team. Look at the alpha play by Harden tonight when things started getting close and compare that to what Kyrie has done since the ASG.
Agreed. I’m not sure I wouldn’t prefer the ball in Eric Gordon’s hands over Kyrie.
 

Red Averages

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To me it seems pretty clear that Kyrie wanted to leave Cleveland to be a Batman, but he’s Robin. Scottie Pippen. A great #2 but badly miscast as a #1 star and a team leader.
.
Wouldn’t AD be Batman and Kyrie be Robin?
 

Ale Xander

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Hoping for a sign and trade for a Beal/Jrue etc. Can you still do those in the NBA?
 

Kliq

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You might have trouble finding any Harden playoff heroics.
I didn't say Kyrie was incapable of making big shots, I said he wasn't good enough to be the primary scorer on a championship team. IIRC there was another pretty good player on that Cavs team.
 

Ale Xander

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I didn't say Kyrie was incapable of making big shots, I said he wasn't good enough to be the primary scorer on a championship team. IIRC there was another pretty good player on that Cavs team.
We'll put out to sea and we'll perfect our chemistry

 

TripleOT

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KOC sheds a wee bit of light on the inner machinations of the 18-19 Celts. It sounds like Irving is falling back into the bad habits he established in CLE.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/3/4/18249721/boston-celtics-kyrie-irving-brad-stevens-crisis
To start the article: "On Sunday afternoon, Boston Celtics guard Kyrie Irving was entering TD Garden ahead of a nationally televised game against the Houston Rockets. Ordinarily, it would be the kind of moment Irving lived for: a big stage, a big opponent, and a big moment.

“I’m not gonna miss any of this shit when I’m done playing,” said Irving. Someone standing nearby noted that the lights and cameras are all part of basketball. Irving responded, “I don’t care if it is.”


You just made and starred in a movie, and you're not an actor. You obviously love cameras and attention. This diva bullshit doesn't play well in Boston.
 

TripleOT

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So KOC puts the blame on Kyrie, rightly I'd have to guess. If Kyrie truly believes the regular season only becomes important by game 70, that means we have only a fortnight of this bullshit to endure until he and his vaunted leadership skills turns this thing around.
 

cecil c

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I’d try and move Brown/picks for Beal. Beal and Tatum are both St Louis kids and get along well. Those two and a healthy Hayward you could do worse with.

No way. Brown has the potential to be a 'special' player. Beal (been watching him for a few years) is more like a healthier Avery Bradleyish - hard worker - Celtics material for sure - but I like Brown and would hate to see him play for the wiz.
 

luckiestman

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I’d try and move Brown/picks for Beal. Beal and Tatum are both St Louis kids and get along well. Those two and a healthy Hayward you could do worse with.

No way. Brown has the potential to be a 'special' player. Beal (been watching him for a few years) is more like a healthier Avery Bradleyish - hard worker - Celtics material for sure - but I like Brown and would hate to see him play for the wiz.

Man, no way. I love AB but he is not close to the offensive player Brad Beal is.

Edit: Beal is only 3 years older than Brown. I like JB but I really like Beal.
 

bosox79

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I’d try and move Brown/picks for Beal. Beal and Tatum are both St Louis kids and get along well. Those two and a healthy Hayward you could do worse with.

No way. Brown has the potential to be a 'special' player. Beal (been watching him for a few years) is more like a healthier Avery Bradleyish - hard worker - Celtics material for sure - but I like Brown and would hate to see him play for the wiz.
This has to be one of the worst takes ever on this board. Since John Wall went down with an injury, Beal has put up 28.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, 6.4 assists, 1.9 steals on .481/.362/.869 shooting in 28 games. In those 28 games, the Wizards are 13-15.

Beal is arguably a top 20 player in the league and I wouldn't be surprised if many on this board would prefer him over Kyrie Irving. What kind of potential do you think Jaylen Brown has?

And to call him a healthier Avery Bradley is absurd.
Beal at age 25: 25.7 points, 5.1 rebounds, 5.4 assists, 1.4 steals on .477/.350/.827 shooting in 37.4 mpg (this year)
Bradley at 25: 15.2 points, 2.9 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 1.5 steals on .447/.361/.780 shooting in 33.4 mpg.

Beal is better at basketball in pretty much every way, not to mention significantly bigger. Jaylen Brown would have to be one hell of a defensive presence or improve leaps and bounds in his playmaking ability to ever be as good as Bradley Beal.
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
Big John Stud has a new handle? Not sure there is any realistic way to get Beal to Boston, and he is Avery Bradley as much as Michael Jordan was RJ Hunter.

I'm in the camp of when Kyrie lights Boston on fire on July 1st and buys an apartment in Tribeca someone gets and exclusive with Al to hear the truth about how horrible it was to play with Kyrie.

I hope Kyrie is cast in a 2020 version of Rent.

Avant Garde Irving and Tech Tycoon Durant headlining at MSG.
 

DrewDawg

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This is weird but I caught some of Uncle Drew on TV last week and his Uncle Drew character would fucking hate the way he's acting right now. Not the hatred of the outside circus, but of how he appears to be playing.

Yes, that's a dumb take, but when certain scenes were on that's what I was thinking about.
 

nighthob

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Big John Stud has a new handle? Not sure there is any realistic way to get Beal to Boston, and he is Avery Bradley as much as Michael Jordan was RJ Hunter.
Well the easiest way is for Danny to work out a deal with 24/7 Sports Mgmt. where Irving leaves via a sign & trade so that Boston generates a large TPE. Then you build a deal around Brown/Rozier via s&t/Memphis #1 for Beal. (A non simultaneous trade where Beal gets traded into the exception for the Memphis pick and then Brown & Rozier get traded into Washington's exception for a conditional #2 that never conveys.)
 

lovegtm

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If Irving leaves what other options do you see out there?
Bring the gang back, get the internal development from Brown that they should have been prioritizing this year, and try to nail a lot of upcoming draft picks, especially the Memphis one.
 

lovegtm

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Bring the gang back, get the internal development from Brown that they should have been prioritizing this year, and try to nail a lot of upcoming draft picks, especially the Memphis one.
There are probably other variants on this, but I don’t see where swapping out Brown, Rozier, and the most valuable non-team-owned pick in the league for Beal gets you. I’d rather tank at that point.
 

the moops

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If Irving leaves what other options do you see out there?
Good question. I am unsure if trading Brown + MEM pick for Beal leaves this team in any better position in 2019. But maybe, I dunno. Smart, Beal, Tatum, Hayword, Horford does have a nice mix of talents I suppose.

If Kyrie leaves, I do wonder if there is a quick reset though. Let Horford walk. You roll into next year with Smart, Brown, Tatum, Hayward and a near max slot to entice someone
 

nighthob

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Bring the gang back, get the internal development from Brown that they should have been prioritizing this year, and try to nail a lot of upcoming draft picks, especially the Memphis one.
Sure, they could settle for being a forty something win team that plays hard. But what if Brown never develops? You’re betting the house on Tatum and a draft pick that could well be a late lottery one.
 

bosox79

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Bring the gang back, get the internal development from Brown that they should have been prioritizing this year, and try to nail a lot of upcoming draft picks, especially the Memphis one.
What makes you think they weren't/aren't prioritizing that and he just hasn't responded the way they liked? Sometimes young players stall and don't really develop any further. I'm in the camp that they should be trying to trade him rather than pay him the max.
 

lovegtm

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What makes you think they weren't/aren't prioritizing that and he just hasn't responded the way they liked? Sometimes young players stall and don't really develop any further. I'm in the camp that they should be trying to trade him rather than pay him the max.
His play since late November has pretty clearly exceeded his minutes and role.

I mean, as a start, having him play a lot next to Rozier while Rozier hogs the ball is criminal imo. Brown simply isn’t getting the reps he would get on another team.