Best Sox "Prime" team

[BuellMiller]

ESPN had an article today about which team would be the best if their current players all got their prime year back: http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22701832/which-team-mlb-best-every-player-were-prime

(or as I obscurely like to think it, "EWB2 rules").

Got me thinking, on a similar vein to the 2 All-star team threads...which Red Sox team going back would be best at this (I'm going to also change it a little better to include future years, too).

I'd guess 2004 would probably be pretty pretty good, if you have a lineup of Nomar and Damon from 2000, Manny (1999), Ortiz (2007), as well as getting 2003 Bill Mueller, Trot Nixon, 2004 Varitek, 2009 Youk, and 1996 Ellis Burks (going by bWAR), with a pitching staff of 1999 Pedro, 2001 Schilling, 2002 Lowe, 1995 Wakefield, and Foulke and the rest of the pen.
Of course, a sneaky good team by this may be the 1983 team, with HOFs in Boggs, Yaz, Evans, Rice, Eck, and some good prime seasons out of Tudor and Hurst, among others (Gedman in 1985 was pretty good).

Just a thought to help kill some more time until the end of the month...

 

[Ale Xander]

Do you take 2004 (Ortiz, Youk Blowhard), or 2002 (Rickey, Floyd, Baerga, Burkett)?

mainly, peak Rickey or peak Ortiz?

 

[Ale Xander]

2002 would be something like this:
LF Rickey Henderson (1990)
CF Johnny Damon (2000)
SS Nomar (2000 - good luck IBB'ing him 20 times in this lineup)
DH Manny Ramirez (1995-2008, pick a year, any year)
1B Cliff Floyd (2001, playing a 1994 position, can i do that?)
RF Trot Nixon (2003)
2B Carlos Baerga (1993)
C Jason Varitek (2004/5)
3B Freddy Sanchez (2006-forgot how good he was this year)

PH/1B Daubach (1999)
PH/OF Agbayani (1999)
IF Hillenbrand (plays 3B and Sanchez MIF if injury)
C2 Mirabelli
Sorry, Offerman

SP1 Pedro (pick a year, any year)
SP2 Lowe (2002-same year!)
SP3 Burkett (1993)
SP4 Arrojo (Rookie year)
SP5 Hermanson (1998)

Relievers
Long/Spot Wakefield (1995)
Mopup Darren Oliver (2008)
Loogy Embree
SU1 Howry (2005)
SU2 Garces
CL Ugie (1998)

TV/Radio Lou Merloni

 

[curly2]

1978 would have been interesting, with an offense led by 1978 Jim Rice, 1967 Yaz, 1979 Fred Lynn, 1977 Carlton Fisk, 1987 Dwight Evans and 1973 George Scott

The pitching would have been 1978 Eck, 1972 Luis Tiant, 1973 Bill Lee and 1976 Mike Torrez, with 1977 Bill Campbell as the closer.

 

[moretsyndrome]

1978 would have been interesting, with an offense led by 1978 Jim Rice, 1967 Yaz, 1979 Fred Lynn, 1977 Carlton Fisk, 1987 Dwight Evans and 1973 George Scott

The pitching would have been 1978 Eck, 1972 Luis Tiant, 1973 Bill Lee and 1976 Mike Torrez, with 1977 Bill Campbell as the closer.

That’s a good team. Maybe 1973 Reggie Cleveland to SP and ‘88 Eck to the pen to lock it up with ‘77 Campbell & the Steamer?

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

I'm actually really intrigued by the 2007 Sox. Going by ERA+ and OPS+ and using the starting lineups as they appear on b-ref:

C: Tek - 122
1B: Youk - 146
2B: Pedroia - 131
3B: Lowell - 128
SS: Lugo - 106
LF: Manny - 186
CF: Coco - 117
RF: JD Drew - 157
DH: Papi - 171

SP: Beckett - 149 (interestingly enough, not his 2007 season)
SP: Matsuzaka - 160
SP: Wake - 165
SP: Schilling - 159
SP: Lester - 171
CL: Papelbon - 517
RP: Okajima - 215
RP: Timlin - 203 (only 31 games in 1995, so I'm not using it)
RP: Tavarez - 193
RP: Javier Lopez - 242
RP: Gagne - 337
RP: Brendan Donnelly - 279

BN: Cora - 119
BN: Mirabelli - 124
BN: Ellsbury - 146
BN: David Murphy - 126

That offense is relentless and the pitching staff (starters and relievers) is insane.

With the caveat that playing time limitations would suppress some of these numbers, here's some totals for funsies:

HR: 289
RBI: 1044
Wins (pitcher): 74
K: 1209
bWAR: 110.3 (65.5 from the hitters, 44.8 from the pitchers)

That would be around 153 wins, heh.

 

[m0ckduck]

1996 Red Sox surely must have biggest delta between "prime" and actual.

Consider:
C- Mike Stanley (1993)
1B- Mo Vaughn (1996)
2B- Jon Valentin (1995)
SS- Nomar (1999 or 2000)
3B- Tim Naehring (1995)
LF- Mike Greenwell (1988)
CF- Um, Dwayne Hosey (1995). Am I allowed 2003 Trot Nixon?
RF- Kevin Mitchell (1989)
DH- Jose Canseco (1988)

With guys like Will Cordero (1994), Reggie Jefferson (1996), and Troy O'Leary (1999) on the bench.

Edit: that's a defensive train wreck in the outfield-- just as it was in real life. I can barely process how amazing that batting order would be 1-8. Six guys with OPS+ 150 or higher.

S- Roger Clemens (1990)
S- Aaron Sele (1994? 2000?)
S- Tim Wakefield (1995)
S- Jamie Moyer (2001)
S- Jeff Suppan (2005)
C- Flash Gordon (1998)

Healthcliff Slocumb, Mike Stanton and Rich Garces behind Gordon in the pen.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

How about 1992 for the big-delta category? This is a team that finished 73-89, in 7th place.

Player (OPS+ or ERA+, bWAR)

C - Tony Pena 1984 (112, 5.9)
1B - Mo Vaughn 1996 (150, 5.6)
2B - Tim Naehring 1995 (123, 4.2)
SS - John Valentin 1995 (138, 8.3)
3B - Wade Boggs 1987 (187, 8.3)
LF - Mike Greenwell 1988 (160, 7.5)
CF - Ellis Burks 1996 (149, 7.9)
RF - Tom Brunansky 1982 (129, 5.6)
DH - Jack Clark 1987 (176, 5.4)

SP:
Roger Clemens 1990 (211, 10.6)
Frank Viola 1987 (159, 8.1)
Danny Darwin 1993 (143, 5.7)
Matt Young 1983 (131, 5.1)
Joe Hesketh 1985 (138, 3.3)

RP:
Jeff Reardon 1982 (177, 3.5)
Paul Quantrill 1997 (234, 3.2)
Greg Harris 1985 (172, 3.3)

 

[chrisfont9]

1988 would be intriguing...

C Rich Gedman (126 best OPS+)
1B Larry Parrish! (146) (played mostly 3B in real life)
2B Marty Barrett (102)
3B Wade Boggs (174)
SS Jody Reed (112) [Parrish played some SS early on if you want to get real cute]
LF Mike Greenwell (160)
RF Dwight Evans (163)
CF Ellis Burks (149) or Brady Anderson (156)
DH Jim Rice (157)

SP Roger Clemens (226 best ERA+, 222 pre roids)
SP Mike Boddicker (143)
SP Bruce Hurst (140)
SP Oil Can Boyd (125 if using only seasons of more than 100 IPs)
SP Mike Smithson (114)
CL Lee Smith (229)
RP Bob Stanley (153)
RP Dennis Lamp (178)
RP Wes Gardner (118)

Not the most fun bunch but you could go to war with this team. Hurst is one of my favorite Sox players ever.

 

[Traut]

The 1980s and 1990s Red Sox were fond of signing players well past their prime.

 

[BuellMiller]

How about 1992 for the big-delta category? This is a team that finished 73-89, in 7th place.

Player (OPS+ or ERA+, bWAR)

C - Tony Pena 1984 (112, 5.9)
1B - Mo Vaughn 1996 (150, 5.6)
2B - Tim Naehring 1995 (123, 4.2)
SS - John Valentin 1995 (138, 8.3)
3B - Wade Boggs 1987 (187, 8.3)
LF - Mike Greenwell 1988 (160, 7.5)
CF - Ellis Burks 1996 (149, 7.9)
RF - Tom Brunansky 1982 (129, 5.6)
DH - Jack Clark 1987 (176, 5.4)

SP:
Roger Clemens 1990 (211, 10.6)
Frank Viola 1987 (159, 8.1)
Danny Darwin 1993 (143, 5.7)
Matt Young 1983 (131, 5.1)
Joe Hesketh 1985 (138, 3.3)

RP:
Jeff Reardon 1982 (177, 3.5)
Paul Quantrill 1997 (234, 3.2)
Greg Harris 1985 (172, 3.3)

Yeah, that's an interesting one. Of course, I like to put that year, in the Rocky V and Star Wars I-III bin (in that they never happened). Hated seeing Boggs and Burks leave after the season, too. Only thing remotely positive about it was Vaughn and Valentin starting to show signs as potential starters.

 

[Bergs]

Yeah, that's an interesting one. Of course, I like to put that year, in the Rocky V and Star Wars I-III bin (in that they never happened). Hated seeing Boggs and Burks leave after the season, too. Only thing remotely positive about it was Vaughn and Valentin starting to show signs as potential starters.

Clemens got fucked so hard that year. I think Reardon blew approximately ellenty-gajillion saves (or 5. Whatever). He was far and away the best pitcher in the AL in 1992 and finished 3rd for the CYA.

 

[m0ckduck]

Clemens got fucked so hard that year. I think Reardon blew approximately ellenty-gajillion saves (or 5. Whatever). He was far and away the best pitcher in the AL in 1992 and finished 3rd for the CYA.

If you're interested in "Roger Clemens, fucked hard", check out the voting for Cy Young in 1990. Specifically, compare him and Bob Welch for every single stats besides Wins. Then look at the MVP balloting, where Roger somehow finished six spots ahead of Welch, despite losing the Cy Young to him-- whaaa?

Edit: Clemens had 3 seasons where he threw more than 200IP with an ERA+ better than 200... and only won one CY in those 3 seasons. Despite somehow winning a CY in New York in 2001 with an ERA+ of 128. This whole thing is making me angry.

 

[DeweyWins]

(or as I obscurely like to think it, "EWB2 rules").

Earl Weaver Baseball 2... a classic! I remember being able to design parks (distance to the wall, wall height), a feature I've yet to see since then. I started with MicroLeague Baseball, and drifted into less accurate and more visually appealing sims (the Tony LaRussa series from beginning to end, High Heat Baseball) before returning to better sim engines (Strategic Baseball Simulator, Diamond Mind, OOTP).

I haven't looked closely at it but the 1915 squad with Smoky Joe Wood, Ruth, the Golden Outfield... I wouldn't underestimate the best seasons of each of those players, taken all together.

 

[DeweyWins]

Clemens got fucked so hard that year

I don't disagree there. Clemens has had better years since the second half of 2014. RIP Welch. What a way to go out from the world. I just learned the cause of Welch's death this morning. I remember hearing about it as a heart attack. It makes me re-think the idea of floor mats.