Ben Simmons wants out of Philadelphia

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Cellar-Door

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He'd be a horrible fit in Dallas because he's useless off the ball and taking Luka off the ball to accommodate Simmons makes the offense worse. Golden State is in a similar spot, sure Curry’s a great shot maker, but why reduce his gravity to accommodate an other guy on the floor level offensive player? Portland? I’m not sure they’d want to move Dame for him, and as with Golden State, why reduce Lillard’s gravity for an inferior player?

Now, sure, the talent starved teams would likely happily take a flyer, but I’d wager that Houston would hang up the phone if Jalen Green were the expected return. Ditto for Detroit and CC. Cunningham will almost certainly not be as good as Simmons defensively. But he has a lot more offensive upside. And he’s got a lot of Marcus in him in terms of competitive fire. Ben Simmons, to put it politely, does not. As for the Nets, Simmons’s failure to take a shot means that he’s only a theoretical fit when they’re not playing in Brooklyn and Manhattan. But all told I’d rather have the ball in Harden’s hands than Simmons.
I think he's a strong fit in DAL (a lot of the local guys there have talked about how they can't afford him, but the fit is actually decent), because what he can do there is be the secondary ball handler and a cutter, DAL's offense was a mess last year because they had no other ballhandlers beyond Luka, and were trying guys like Richardson in the role. With Simmons, you let him cook for the 14 minutes Luka isn't on the floor, and run a bunch of PnR and dives for the 20 or so they share, and occasionally set Luka off-ball to give him some rest and keep him fresh. And he lets you have someone else to run fast breaks, which will help their transition offense.

With GS, and POR, you're going to use him in the Draymond type role, when sharing the court, running offense from the elbow much of the time, screen and diving, and then being the PG for the bench unit.

I think you overestimate how much these guys need/have the ball. Even the most ball dominant players in the most ball dominant offenses usually only play 34-35 MPG and have usage under 40, you need other guys who can create off the dribble, and you need someone to stagger in for the almost 1/3rd of the game those guys are going to be on the bench. Aditionally, having the ability to sometimes shift those guys off-ball is helpful because it eliminates all the doubleteams they face. And on the other end, Simmons is unique in that he can handle most anyone making sure you put your defensively suspect star on the worst guy the opponent has.
 

Average Reds

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I think it fair to say that Doc publicly disclosing his doubts about Simmons winning a championship as a PG, falls under a broad heading of airing of dirty laundry.

It was the first I had heard of Doc's lack of confidence in his PG.
As a longtime Sixers fan I’ve mostly been lurking in this thread. But I have to say that I just don’t understand this.

I’m not saying that how Doc handled this was the smartest play in the world, but it was clear to everyone watching that Simmons played like a fucking coward on the offensive end of the court against Atlanta.

The idea that Doc’s comments are where this all started makes no sense.

Edit: here’s a random story from game 5, where the Sixers lost a huge lead in the second half of the game because no one other than Embid or Curry was even willing to try to score.

Embiid finished with 37 points and 13 rebounds, while Curry had 36 points and made 7 of 12 3-pointers. Embiid and Curry were the only two Philadelphia players to make field goals in the last 31 minutes and 26 seconds. They shot a combined 25 of 39 from the floor (64.1%) for the night, while the rest of the 76ers made 10 of 36 field goals (27.8%) and scored just 33 points.

Tobias Harris and Simmons, in particular, struggled on Wednesday. Harris had a season-low four points, making only 2 of his 11 field goals and not even shooting any free throws. Simmons, meanwhile, attempted just four field goals and missed 10 of his 14 free throws to finish with eight points.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2021/06/17/philadelphia-76ers-blow-late-10-point-lead-lose-109-106-to-atlanta-hawks-in-game-5-of-eastern-conference-semifinals/amp/
 
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lovegtm

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As a longtime Sixers fan I’ve mostly been lurking in this thread. But I have to say that I just don’t understand this.

I’m not saying that how Doc handled this was the smartest play in the world, but it was clear to everyone watching that Simmons played like a fucking coward on the offensive end of the court against Atlanta.

The idea that Doc’s comments are where this all started makes no sense.
I'm sure Doc was very upset. However, him and Embiid getting into their feels publicly doesn't seem to have worked out great if the goal was to get a good return for Simmons.
 

Average Reds

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Well, I stated upfront that it wasn’t the smartest move. And yet, I completely understand it.

More to the point, I’m responding to the idea that those comments were what kicked this off. As someone who was actually in Philly that week, I can tell you that Doc’s comments were not the catalyst. Simmons’ play was.
 

Cellar-Door

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Well, I stated upfront that it wasn’t the smartest move. And yet, I completely understand it.

More to the point, I’m responding to the idea that those comments were what kicked this off. As someone who was actually in Philly that week, I can tell you that Doc’s comments were not the catalyst. Simmons’ play was.
Actually I think the catalyst was probably before that, it was probably at some point during the season when Simmons was frustrated by the offense, and annoyed that Morey was publicly saying he wasn't available while privately talking trade (which always gets back to guys via agents). All of the things that happened afterwords just ramped it up on both sides and made it more fractious, but I think even before the playoffs Morey was quietly hoping to trade Simmons for a more traditional scoring star, and Simmons and Klutch were quietly hoping for a move to a better fit (while in the background Embiid was also frustrated with the poor fit, and Doc didn't really like Simmons as a player). Then the playoffs happened, which made everyone involved even more set in those positions.
Edit- so Simmons has a terrible playoffs, and is kinda mentally checked out, Embiid is pissed that his costar is playing poorly (especially since he probably thought he was getting Harden), Doc is looking for someone to blame after getting ripped all week by commentators and former players, and they push it in public comments, Simmons fully checks out, and Morey is desperately trying to save face by not selling for $0.50. He hopes everything cools off over the summer and they can all coexist at least another half season until the deadline..... but he misjudges everyone involved. Simmons isn't caving, Doc and Embiid aren't all that interested in making things work, etc. etc.
 

Swedgin

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I'm sure Doc was very upset. However, him and Embiid getting into their feels publicly doesn't seem to have worked out great if the goal was to get a good return for Simmons.
I really do not understand this line of thinking.

The apparently tepid trade market for Simmons is not driven by anything Doc or Embiid said. Nor is it the result of the public trade demand, the hold out, the suspension or the fines. It is a function of Simmons play/game and timing.

Consider this (horrible) hypothetical: Jaylen Brown sleeps with Tatum's wife. Tatum demands Brown be trade immediately. He won't set foot in the locker room so long as Jaylen is a member of the team. Does anyone here think Brad would not have several great offers in short order? Even in a (horrible) world where the Celtics were over a barrel and had to trade Jaylen, Brad would not be taking pennies on the dollar. There would be a robust market for him. He's on a fair to good contract. He fits on any team. His game has consistently improved during his team in the league. The lack of internal leverage would not hamstring Brad, because he would have plenty of external leverage - i.e. teams bidding against each other.

As to timing, Portland lost last night to the Kings, a few (or 10) more of those and...
 

Cellar-Door

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I really do not understand this line of thinking.

The apparently tepid trade market for Simmons is not driven by anything Doc or Embiid said. Nor is it the result of the public trade demand, the hold out, the suspension or the fines. It is a function of Simmons play/game and timing.

Consider this (horrible) hypothetical: Jaylen Brown sleeps with Tatum's wife. Tatum demands Brown be trade immediately. He won't set foot in the locker room so long as Jaylen is a member of the team. Does anyone here think Brad would not have several great offers in short order? Even in a (horrible) world where the Celtics were over a barrel and had to trade Jaylen, Brad would not be taking pennies on the dollar. There would be a robust market for him. He's on a fair to good contract. He fits on any team. His game has consistently improved during his team in the league. The lack of internal leverage would not hamstring Brad, because he would have plenty of external leverage - i.e. teams bidding against each other.

As to timing, Portland lost last night to the Kings, a few (or 10) more of those and...
I think whether there is a "tepid" trade market is unclear. Supposedly there are up to 10 teams that have shown interest, just Morey won't budge on his valuation (likely because he hopes Lillard or the like becomes available in a Simmons deal).
 

bankshot1

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As a longtime Sixers fan I’ve mostly been lurking in this thread. But I have to say that I just don’t understand this.

I’m not saying that how Doc handled this was the smartest play in the world, but it was clear to everyone watching that Simmons played like a fucking coward on the offensive end of the court against Atlanta.

The idea that Doc’s comments are where this all started makes no sense.

Edit: here’s a random story from game 5, where the Sixers lost a huge lead in the second half of the game because no one other than Embid or Curry was even willing to try to score.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2021/06/17/philadelphia-76ers-blow-late-10-point-lead-lose-109-106-to-atlanta-hawks-in-game-5-of-eastern-conference-semifinals/amp/
AR

If you don't understand that Doc telling the world he doesn't have faith in Simmons' ability to win a championship as a the 76ers PG, as airing his dirty laundry, and best washed and folded in house, I don't know what to say that would clear up your confusion. Doc should have handled this in private after voicing support for his all-star PG in public.



And you're creating a strawman. Everyone watching that series saw the problem, but Doc made it worse.

The answer to the question asked after the loss, "can Simmons win a championship as your PG?", should have been an immediate "yes", but he had a bad series and we got stuff to work on this off-season"

Or words to that effect. To undercut his star PG was IMO short-sighted and dumb.

What we are seeing now is the on-going after math of Doc's managerial fuck-up.

And if you don't understand, that's fine.
 

bankshot1

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The assumption that people who disagree must not be understanding things is a big part of why I have not been active in this thread. And is the reason I will be leaving it after this post.
AR with all due respect your opening line was:

" As a longtime Sixers fan I’ve mostly been lurking in this thread. But I have to say that I just don’t understand this."
 

Average Reds

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That is a fair comeback, but I perceived your use of "understanding" to be much broader than my disagreement (phrased as a lack of understanding) with those defending Ben Simmons.

Let me repeat myself, in more direct terms: I am not defending the comments of Doc Rivers of Joel Embid. Those comments were not helpful to the cause of getting full value for Simmons. However, my disagreement with the majority perception of Ben Simmons in this thread is profound.

And with that, I will leave the thread to the regulars.
 

nighthob

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I think Morey's problem is that he can't get excess value for Simmons at the moment, which is what he wants. He could have gotten that value last year by dealing Simmons, Maxey, and picks for Harden. I'm guessing that the offers he's getting are commensurate for a better version of Marcus. What he wants is a top ten player, and unless one of those guys goes full frontal Harden on his team he's not getting it.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Well, I stated upfront that it wasn’t the smartest move. And yet, I completely understand it.

More to the point, I’m responding to the idea that those comments were what kicked this off. As someone who was actually in Philly that week, I can tell you that Doc’s comments were not the catalyst. Simmons’ play was.
It was absolutely the off-the-court catalyst. This league has a long history of young players coming up small in the playoffs and of course Simmons is an extreme example as a young star coming up super small. That’s on-court stuff though that isn’t purposely targeted. It’s an uncontrollable. Comments in a post-game presser from the other star and a coach is a controllable. We wouldn’t be anywhere near having this much drama had both Embiid and Doc taken the supportive high road publicly. It’s likely Simmons would be playing and playing productively right now if this is what had taken place. So yeah, if Simmons produced in that series we wouldn’t have this but I have a hard time calling a players performance on the floor a catalyst to his teammate and coach throwing him under the bus.
 

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I think Morey's problem is that he can't get excess value for Simmons at the moment, which is what he wants. He could have gotten that value last year by dealing Simmons, Maxey, and picks for Harden. I'm guessing that the offers he's getting are commensurate for a better version of Marcus. What he wants is a top ten player, and unless one of those guys goes full frontal Harden on his team he's not getting it.
Considering most of the current rankings have Ben in the mid to late 20s, and currently a distressed asset due to the dysfunction, aren't we talking about player #30 or so as fair value? Even if last year's playoffs never happened, you're talking about like player 25 as fair value.

If they can get CJ+ or DLo+ or Marcus+, that's fucking market rate right now. That's not a firesale price. Ben is not a top 10 player, nor has he ever been.

Obviously contract length adjusts the value curve a bit relative to the rankings, but in what reality was a Dame level player ever a fair target. As you note, Harden was only in play because he threatened to eat his way off the Rockets on strip club buffets. Morey can't be putting all of his eggs in the "I hope a top 10 guy fucking hates his team soon" bucket, can he?
 

benhogan

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As to timing, Portland lost last night to the Kings, a few (or 10) more of those and...
1 game in and the cave begins. Underperformance is a bitch for a GM.

I'll stand by my original stance, Morey holds out until Dec/Jan.

They just need to manage this stink bomb a little LOT better, pay Ben the money (sorry Doc/Embiid should have listened to their mothers' "if you have nothing nice to say..."). Take the money out of his owners pocket with these fines (sorry I don't care about Billionaires made rich by Apollo). Maximize trade value by playing it cool and collected. At least that's what I'd want if I was a 76ers fan.

Let Ben go sun bathe in Southern Cal
 
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Cellar-Door

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Considering most of the current rankings have Ben in the mid to late 20s, and currently a distressed asset due to the dysfunction, aren't we talking about player #30 or so as fair value? Even if last year's playoffs never happened, you're talking about like player 25 as fair value.

If they can get CJ+ or DLo+ or Marcus+, that's fucking market rate right now. That's not a firesale price. Ben is not a top 10 player, nor has he ever been.

Obviously contract length adjusts the value curve a bit relative to the rankings, but in what reality was a Dame level player ever a fair target. As you note, Harden was only in play because he threatened to eat his way off the Rockets on strip club buffets. Morey can be putting all of his eggs in the "I hope a top 10 guy fucking hates his team soon" bucket, can he?
Morey wants to use Simmons and picks to upgrade, he's hoping for something like Dame asking out and POR taking Simmons, Springer and picks. He's probably delusional, but he's standing firm on swinging for the fences.
 

Jimbodandy

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Morey wants to use Simmons and picks to upgrade, he's hoping for something like Dame asking out and POR taking Simmons, Springer and picks. He's probably delusional, but he's standing firm on swinging for the fences.
I've been under the assumption that he's turning down truly shit offers. If the offers are decent, and he's still turning them down for a Dame level player, he's delusional. Price won't be going up. I'm in the "price won't go down" camp, but I don't see it going up either.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Does anyone here think Brad would not have several great offers in short order? Even in a (horrible) world where the Celtics were over a barrel and had to trade Jaylen, Brad would not be taking pennies on the dollar. There would be a robust market for him. He's on a fair to good contract. He fits on any team. His game has consistently improved during his team in the league. The lack of internal leverage would not hamstring Brad, because he would have plenty of external leverage - i.e. teams bidding against each other.
It's unlikely that the Cs would be getting 100% of JB's value for two reasons (which are the same reasons that Morey can't figure out how to get around): (i) comparables assets are just not available at this moment, and (ii) everyone knows Morey has to make a deal so why not see if they can get an asset at a distressed price?

I know it's human nature to try to apportion blame, but that's not what I'm really interested in. I'm interested in seeing how this plays out - not for the soap drama but because of the precedent it's going to set in the NBA.

Maybe PHI gets off to a rousing start; people start caring about Ben; and then in a couple of months, the money gets too big and Ben tucks his tail under his legs and goes back to playing with PHI (that would a sight, wouldn't it?). And then the best case scenario for Morey is that Beal or Dame or another comparable talent demands a trade and takes Simmons in return (PDX would probably do that before WAS because PDX tries to keep its team competitive due to, from what I understand, fan base pressure).

OTOH, maybe PHI plays poorly out of the stretch and the team is about to mutiny because they are sick of answering Ben questions every day and Morey caves and takes CJ McCollum.

In the first case, players under contract are going to think long and hard about trying this again. In the second case, it could open up a free-for-all.

As a fan of a team that has 2 young stars under long-term contracts, I'm hoping that Ben doesn't set his precedent but Morey really botched his end of things IMO (not saying that Ben doesn't have any responsibility, but from a management perspective, they'll probably study this case in business school when all is said and done.
 

Cellar-Door

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I've been under the assumption that he's turning down truly shit offers. If the offers are decent, and he's still turning them down for a Dame level player, he's delusional. Price won't be going up. I'm in the "price won't go down" camp, but I don't see it going up either.
Nobody is sure what offers are out there. Only one I heard solidly reported is Shams said on some show that the 76ers asked POR for CJ McCollum, another player and 3 1sts and 3 swaps, and POR told them to fuck off.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Nobody is sure what offers are out there. Only one I heard solidly reported is Shams said on some show that the 76ers asked POR for CJ McCollum, another player and 3 1sts and 3 swaps, and POR told them to fuck off.
Portland may be ready to blow this thing up. Keep an eye on them after their opening night home loss.
 

Cellar-Door

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Portland may be ready to blow this thing up. Keep an eye on them after their opening night home loss.
They should have blown it up already, but their GM was trying to shift blame to the coach and doubled down on his flawed roster.

Even so, I don't think PHI can give them the best offer for Lillard in a blowup, and unless the 76ers are willing to do a straight swap, a McCollum to PHI trade makes no sense either.
 

HomeRunBaker

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They should have blown it up already, but their GM was trying to shift blame to the coach and doubled down on his flawed roster.

Even so, I don't think PHI can give them the best offer for Lillard in a blowup, and unless the 76ers are willing to do a straight swap, a McCollum to PHI trade makes no sense either.
I was referring to coming back to pairing Simmons with Lillard as Simons picks up CJ’s minutes. Dame already plays off the ball a lot as it is and would reduce his wear and tear as he ages.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I really do not understand this line of thinking.

The apparently tepid trade market for Simmons is not driven by anything Doc or Embiid said. Nor is it the result of the public trade demand, the hold out, the suspension or the fines. It is a function of Simmons play/game and timing.

Consider this (horrible) hypothetical: Jaylen Brown sleeps with Tatum's wife. Tatum demands Brown be trade immediately. He won't set foot in the locker room so long as Jaylen is a member of the team. Does anyone here think Brad would not have several great offers in short order? Even in a (horrible) world where the Celtics were over a barrel and had to trade Jaylen, Brad would not be taking pennies on the dollar. There would be a robust market for him. He's on a fair to good contract. He fits on any team. His game has consistently improved during his team in the league. The lack of internal leverage would not hamstring Brad, because he would have plenty of external leverage - i.e. teams bidding against each other.

As to timing, Portland lost last night to the Kings, a few (or 10) more of those and...
Same problems would come up with Jaylen. C's would be lucky to get Harrison Barnes, Haliburton and a pick.

Teams just aren't going to move a lot of assets for a player ranked in the 20-40 range, especially if the other team has to trade them.

If the player is James Harden or Anthony Davis, teams will give up the assets pretty much regardless because every other team will be interested too.


The best name people could come up with as players comparable to Simmons demanding trades were Baron Davis and Eric Bledsoe.

As far as I can tell, Baron Davis was traded with the pick that ended up being Kyrie Irving for Jamario Moon and Mo Williams. Umm.... what? Or it was the deal where he was traded for Speedy Claxton and Dale Davis. I'm guessing the latter, both are awful though.

And I don't think Bledsoe is in the same breath of player but he was traded for Greg Monroe, a 2nd round pick and the pick that ended up being Desmond Bane.

Not great returns, at all.

Edit: I'm going to get some grief for this I'm sure, but after the 1st/2nd tier of players (top 15ish), the tier after that is pretty interchangeable as far as players go. Some players will be better fits than others but I don't think the C's would be any worse off with Ingram than Jaylen Brown (they would be worse off cap wise). Teams only make trades for those players when they have to trade Anthony Davis. They tend not to demand trades either.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Same problems would come up with Jaylen. C's would be lucky to get Harrison Barnes, Haliburton and a pick.

Teams just aren't going to move a lot of assets for a player ranked in the 20-40 range, especially if the other team has to trade them.

If the player is James Harden or Anthony Davis, teams will give up the assets pretty much regardless because every other team will be interested too.


The best name people could come up with as players comparable to Simmons demanding trades were Baron Davis and Eric Bledsoe.

As far as I can tell, Baron Davis was traded with the pick that ended up being Kyrie Irving for Jamario Moon and Mo Williams. Umm.... what? Or it was the deal where he was traded for Speedy Claxton and Dale Davis. I'm guessing the latter, both are awful though.

And I don't think Bledsoe is in the same breath of player but he was traded for Greg Monroe, a 2nd round pick and the pick that ended up being Desmond Bane.

Not great returns, at all.

Edit: I'm going to get some grief for this I'm sure, but after the 1st/2nd tier of players (top 15ish), the tier after that is pretty interchangeable as far as players go. Some players will be better fits than others but I don't think the C's would be any worse off with Ingram than Jaylen Brown (they would be worse off cap wise). Teams only make trades for those players when they have to trade Anthony Davis. They tend not to demand trades either.
These guys don’t have a lot in common with Simmons and Jaylen though. Baron was traded by NO purely for financial reasons and later in his career, similar to Bledsoe, as he was finished by that time due to his knee.
 

Cesar Crespo

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And yes, every team would offer Jaylen Brown the max if they had the cap space to do so, even after fucking Tatum's wife. I don't think every team in the NBA would be interested in giving up assets to acquire him though. I think that's the case even without any baggage. At least when it comes to realistic offers, anyway.

What kind of packages do people think Jaylen Brown would get if he demanded a trade tomorrow without any baggage? I'm guessing maybe an established player on a rookie deal and some picks. We wouldn't get a star back unless they were disgruntled.

When was the last star for star trade in the NBA? I guess Oladipo for Harden but that doesn't really count. There are trades like Ingram for Davis but Ingram wasn't a star yet. Westbrook/Wall but that's not relevant here really.

There's probably some obvious ones I'm missing but I also thought there were be obvious "2nd bananas" who demanded trades and no one really came up with any other than Baron Davis.
 

HomeRunBaker

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And yes, every team would offer Jaylen Brown the max if they had the cap space to do so, even after fucking Tatum's wife. I don't think every team in the NBA would be interested in giving up assets to acquire him though. I think that's the case even without any baggage. At least when it comes to realistic offers, anyway.

What kind of packages do people think Jaylen Brown would get if he demanded a trade tomorrow without any baggage? I'm guessing maybe an established player on a rookie deal and some picks. We wouldn't get a star back unless they were disgruntled.

When was the last star for star trade in the NBA? I guess Oladipo for Harden but that doesn't really count. There are trades like Ingram for Davis but Ingram wasn't a star yet. Westbrook/Wall but that's not relevant here really.

There's probably some obvious ones I'm missing but I also thought there were be obvious "2nd bananas" who demanded trades and no one really came up with any other than Baron Davis.
Unless you are the elite of the elite……you aren’t getting a star in return for your star unless the former is disgruntled due to NBA GM’s valuing the face of their franchise. The only way they would be traded is if they received a ridiculous offer. Jaylen is really really good but yes I think your return for him is about right.

It’s comical to watch Morey not understand this as a non-Sixer fan.
 

Kliq

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And yes, every team would offer Jaylen Brown the max if they had the cap space to do so, even after fucking Tatum's wife. I don't think every team in the NBA would be interested in giving up assets to acquire him though. I think that's the case even without any baggage. At least when it comes to realistic offers, anyway.

What kind of packages do people think Jaylen Brown would get if he demanded a trade tomorrow without any baggage? I'm guessing maybe an established player on a rookie deal and some picks. We wouldn't get a star back unless they were disgruntled.

When was the last star for star trade in the NBA? I guess Oladipo for Harden but that doesn't really count. There are trades like Ingram for Davis but Ingram wasn't a star yet. Westbrook/Wall but that's not relevant here really.

There's probably some obvious ones I'm missing but I also thought there were be obvious "2nd bananas" who demanded trades and no one really came up with any other than Baron Davis.
Westbrook for Paul? Both teams wanted to get off those assets for different reasons; and both guys ended up making All-NBA the following season.
 

Cellar-Door

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These guys don’t have a lot in common with Simmons and Jaylen though. Baron was traded by NO purely for financial reasons and later in his career, similar to Bledsoe, as he was finished by that time due to his knee.
Baron Davis was traded in his age 25 season in his 6th season, coming off being an All-Star and 3rd team All-NBA, Ben Simmons is in his age 25 season in his 6th season coming off an All-Star season. They're pretty similar in terms of career stage. That NO bizaarely dumped him for nothing in a bad trade because he and the coach hated each other and they were worried about the money doesn't make them that dissimilar
 

Cesar Crespo

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These guys don’t have a lot in common with Simmons and Jaylen though. Baron was traded by NO purely for financial reasons and later in his career, similar to Bledsoe, as he was finished by that time due to his knee.
Yeah, the examples suck. I agree. I don't think there are any really good examples, though. This is new ground and I think maybe that's why there's such an extreme difference of opinions. People are talking past each other. No one agrees he's in the Kawhi/Harden class, but one group seems to think that's the type of package he'll demand anyway. Another group thinks he'll go for something like DLo/CJ (me), and another thinks he has negative value. The first 2 groups mostly agree but you wouldn't know it because we are too busy assigning blame to all the parties. It's fun and all, but it doesn't matter when it comes to the discussion of "what next?"

Simmons is also 25, so changes are he is what he is. He's a very good talent that doesn't become available all that often, but he's also not Dame or Beal. The latter 2 are also top 15/20 guys and pretty much fit on any team. I'm struggling to think of teams Ingram and Brown wouldn't fit on but can't. So once you get to that 20-40 range, ideally you'd want someone who can fit on any roster. That way if there are problems, you can trade them and get 80 or 90 cents to your dollar. If you have a guy like Simmons, you are looking at 50 cents because quite a few teams are eliminated due to fit.

It counts for something that Jaylen Brown could easily fit in on any team in the NBA even if they didn't want to give up assets to acquire him. You can't say the same about Simmons.

Both would get the max in FA, though. And regardless of fit, if salary wasn't a concern, both would be playing 30 minutes a night on any team in the NBA.

On another note, I think people are too quick to say players suck when they don't agree with their contracts. Call it the DLo phenomenon. He's not worth the max but he's also a legit 25-30 minute rotation player on pretty much any NBA team. He may even get some love this year if Towns stays healthy, Edwards continues off his strong 2nd half last year and the Wolves make the playoffs. DLo also got the max after pulling this shit: https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/512472/the-lakers-locker-room-is-a-mess-because-dangelo-russell-secretly-filmed-swaggy-p-admitting-he-cheats-on-iggy-azaeala-in-classic-prank. Of course, that also got him traded.

I hope there isn't anyone out there who think Simmons has negative value on the basketball court if you ignore the contract.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Baron Davis was traded in his age 25 season in his 6th season, coming off being an All-Star and 3rd team All-NBA, Ben Simmons is in his age 25 season in his 6th season coming off an All-Star season. They're pretty similar in terms of career stage. That NO bizaarely dumped him for nothing in a bad trade because he and the coach hated each other and they were worried about the money doesn't make them that dissimilar
True. We don’t disagree on the point that Morey isn’t getting more than what he’s been able to receive. Just because more players will be available to trade doesn’t mean other GM’s are going to trade them for a player who just sat out half the season. There is no way that Morey can keep him until then under the circumstances that Simmons/Klutch have created. Even if he does what is the point if the return is not substantially better than what was out there now? He’s sabotaging a year of Embiid’s prime. Hey, good for them lol.
 

Cesar Crespo

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FWIW, I think Simmons is a much better basketball player than Baron Davis. I never got the Davis appeal. He was a chucker like Antoine. I think I'd prefer Antoine.

Baron strikes me as closer to DLo in value than Simmons. Maybe Baron was a much better defender than I remember?
 

Cellar-Door

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FWIW, I think Simmons is a much better basketball player than Baron Davis. I never got the Davis appeal. He was a chucker like Antoine. I think I'd prefer Antoine.

Baron strikes me as closer to DLo in value than Simmons. Maybe Baron was a much better defender than I remember?
The year before he was traded VORP had him as the 6th best player in the league as did BPM, DARKO liked him about as much as Pierce and Kobe at the same age, WS and PER liked him less. His TS% stunk, but he put up excellent AST% and TOV% numbers on ridiculous usage. Pretty decent defense, buoyed by being a league leader in STL%. Also had a huge effect on that Hornets team, they were 17.7pp100 better with him on the court, which is a lot. He was a very good player, much better than Antoine, probably top 20-25 in the league for his very brief peak?
 

Euclis20

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View: https://twitter.com/WhoLisaFrm503/status/1451016517810720774?s=20


All along the story has been that Morey has been asking for the moon, waiting to be blown out of the water by a deal that essentially represents the peak of Simmons' value (before the playoff debacle, before the trade demand). Do we know if his asks have gotten any more reasonable? Either he's asking for deals he won't get (and I do know he has a rep for that, with starting asks being ridiculously high) or he's still hoping to work this out with Simmons remaining in Philly. I honestly don't know at this point, but the smart (and difficult move) is to sit tight for at least a few months until players signed this summer can be moved.
 

Cellar-Door

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View: https://twitter.com/WhoLisaFrm503/status/1451016517810720774?s=20


All along the story has been that Morey has been asking for the moon, waiting to be blown out of the water by a deal that essentially represents the peak of Simmons' value (before the playoff debacle, before the trade demand). Do we know if his asks have gotten any more reasonable? Either he's asking for deals he won't get (and I do know he has a rep for that, with starting asks being ridiculously high) or he's still hoping to work this out with Simmons remaining in Philly. I honestly don't know at this point, but the smart (and difficult move) is to sit tight for at least a few months until players signed this summer can be moved.
We don't know, but the latest from Woj (who has been Morey's go to mouthpiece on this) was this:
View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1450521608326565890


Now whether that's just spin or they really aren't moving isn't clear.
 

Cellar-Door

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Won't move him for a role player <> demand a top 10 player.

CJ, DLo, lot of guys fit the "not a role player" criterion.
yeah, I was thinking more of the "approach hasn't changed" part, if their approach hasn't changed that say to me they are still looking for either a STAR or a CJ level guy and a lot of extras. Maybe that's not true, maybe they're willing to go for a CJ level player without the extras. In that case they might get something done.
 

Jimbodandy

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yeah, I was thinking more of the "approach hasn't changed" part, if their approach hasn't changed that say to me they are still looking for either a STAR or a CJ level guy and a lot of extras. Maybe that's not true, maybe they're willing to go for a CJ level player without the extras. In that case they might get something done.
I'm pretty sure that you're right. My point was more that Morey is trying not to look bad and is publicly just asking for fair market value while privately asking for much more than that.

If all he wanted was a good starter, that deal would be done.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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yeah, I was thinking more of the "approach hasn't changed" part, if their approach hasn't changed that say to me they are still looking for either a STAR or a CJ level guy and a lot of extras. Maybe that's not true, maybe they're willing to go for a CJ level player without the extras. In that case they might get something done.
My guess is that they've not yet seriously entertained a trade for a "non-top player" because they aren't going to move him at least until December.

Wonder how many more posts there will be in this thread by then.
 

nighthob

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Considering most of the current rankings have Ben in the mid to late 20s, and currently a distressed asset due to the dysfunction, aren't we talking about player #30 or so as fair value? Even if last year's playoffs never happened, you're talking about like player 25 as fair value.

If they can get CJ+ or DLo+ or Marcus+, that's fucking market rate right now. That's not a firesale price. Ben is not a top 10 player, nor has he ever been.

Obviously contract length adjusts the value curve a bit relative to the rankings, but in what reality was a Dame level player ever a fair target. As you note, Harden was only in play because he threatened to eat his way off the Rockets on strip club buffets. Morey can't be putting all of his eggs in the "I hope a top 10 guy fucking hates his team soon" bucket, can he?
Right, that's my point. We're acting like it's Doc's fault that teams aren't lining up to mortgage their future for a guy that's incredibly tough to build around. Morey had that chance last year when Harden went over the hill on the Rockets, but for whatever reason wasn't willing to close the deal. (I mean yes, after the way he demolished the Rockets and weaseled his way out of his contract the Rockets weren't giving him a discount and he shouldn't have expected one.) So this situation is his fault, he's holding out for white gold and Simmons just isn't worth it.
 

Kliq

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Wasn't there a rumor last year that Fertita hated Morey and refused to do business with him, which made the Harden/Simmons swap impossible?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Right, that's my point. We're acting like it's Doc's fault that teams aren't lining up to mortgage their future for a guy that's incredibly tough to build around. Morey had that chance last year when Harden went over the hill on the Rockets, but for whatever reason wasn't willing to close the deal. (I mean yes, after the way he demolished the Rockets and weaseled his way out of his contract the Rockets weren't giving him a discount and he shouldn't have expected one.) So this situation is his fault, he's holding out for white gold and Simmons just isn't worth it.
Doc didn't lower the return, he just forced the exit. So to speak.
 

nighthob

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Same problems would come up with Jaylen. C's would be lucky to get Harrison Barnes, Haliburton and a pick.

Teams just aren't going to move a lot of assets for a player ranked in the 20-40 range, especially if the other team has to trade them.

If the player is James Harden or Anthony Davis, teams will give up the assets pretty much regardless because every other team will be interested too.


The best name people could come up with as players comparable to Simmons demanding trades were Baron Davis and Eric Bledsoe.

As far as I can tell, Baron Davis was traded with the pick that ended up being Kyrie Irving for Jamario Moon and Mo Williams. Umm.... what? Or it was the deal where he was traded for Speedy Claxton and Dale Davis. I'm guessing the latter, both are awful though.

And I don't think Bledsoe is in the same breath of player but he was traded for Greg Monroe, a 2nd round pick and the pick that ended up being Desmond Bane.

Not great returns, at all.
Baron Davis is probably the worst possible comp as the Hornets traded him while he was injured. The second time, when the Clippers moved him, Davis's knees were jelly and LA was just trying to offload the the remaining 3/42 of BD's deal.

There are no injuries with Simmons and with Jaylen they're minor (i.e. the normal wear and tear). If Boston put Brown on the market there's pretty much zero doubt that the Thunder would be throwing a pile of draft picks Boston's way in order to team Brown with SGA. Because it just isn't that hard to pair Brown with other guys.
 

nighthob

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Wasn't there a rumor last year that Fertita hated Morey and refused to do business with him, which made the Harden/Simmons swap impossible?
Yes, thoughtfully spread by Morey's buddies. Prior to that the sticking point was that Philly wanted the same firesale price other teams were getting. That wasn't ever happening. Because of what he'd done to the Rockets Tillman wanted full price for Harden. Given how little full price was, they should have just paid it.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Baron Davis is probably the worst possible comp as the Hornets traded him while he was injured. The second time, when the Clippers moved him, Davis's knees were jelly and LA was just trying to offload the the remaining 3/42 of BD's deal.

There are no injuries with Simmons and with Jaylen they're minor (i.e. the normal wear and tear). If Boston put Brown on the market there's pretty much zero doubt that the Thunder would be throwing a pile of draft picks Boston's way in order to team Brown with SGA. Because it just isn't that hard to pair Brown with other guys.
Yeah, I could see him going for a handful of picks instead of players. The players wouldn't be nearly as good as Jaylen Brown though. At least not yet.
 

Euclis20

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Yeah I'm not going to say it's not real (especially considering it's his history), but if you wanted to fake an injury or two, back tightness and mental health would be at the top of the list.
 

Devizier

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I think it comes down to quality, not role. For example, McCollum and Russell have big contracts and enough deficiencies to maybe not be worth them: McCollum is 30 and missed a bunch of time last year. DLo is younger but a mediocre shooter and poor defender. I mean, DLo was traded for Wiggins. It’s not like he’s carried much value around the league.
 
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