Ben Simmons wants out of Philadelphia

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I am sure Embiid is like, "Fuck Ben Simmons, the guy refused to take a shot in the final quarter of four straight playoff games."

How frustrated would you be to have your season end because the supposed "all world" point guard was passing up dunks and scared to shoot the ball in almost 50 minutes of crunch time? And then after this, the "all world" point guard was making demands of the team, like he carried the team the entire year and the loss was squarely on all of the other players?

Fuck Ben Simmons. This is ridiculous. I can't believe anyone could defend Simmons here. He's got a 4 year deal. He has regressed over the past couple of seasons. He literally does not shoot. And he famously flamed out against a very poor Atlanta team, costing his team a chance to advance in the playoffs. And despite and after all of this, he's acting like he's Lebron in 2010. It's comical.

I thought only Trump got your ire like this.

No one is defending Ben Simmons. I'm only interested to see what happens. There was a short, fantasy-type discussion where we discussed which teams would take Simmons if they didn't have to give up anything for them (virtually all that could make cap space) but that was purely hypothetical.

Ben may not be a top 10 player like he could be if he learned to shoot some but he's still a really good player (top 30? top 40?). He's exercising his rights to not play and the ball is in PHI's court. As I said upthread, I can totally see Morey sticking it to Ben for as long as possible and not coming down from his exorbitant trade demands but if PHI underperforms, that position is harder and harder to maintain.

It's interesting theatre and it's also an interesting case studies and having to keep your star employees happy.

Embiid understands how Philly has tried to build their team around Simmons' weaknesses, had to expand his own game and take more three pointers than he may have wanted so that Simmons can drive to the hoop and maybe-not-shoot. If he does believe that holding on to Simmons cost them at resigning Butler, that would also make sense.

First of all, Embiid seems happy as a clam to take as many jumpers and 3Ps as he can. It helps him save his energy (which may be a conditioning issue, something that people have talked about Embiid for a long time).

Second, it would take quite of bit of revisionist history to cast Butler's leaving on Simmons. No one in PHI (except maybe Reddick and he was gone too) made a play to get Butler back at any point during the season or (from what Butler says) immediately after the playoffs ended. To the best of my recollection, I don't remember Embiid lobbying for Butler to stay. If you listened to Butler talk to Reddick, Butler saw the writing on the wall pretty early on.

 

[Swedgin]

Nah, he should get out of town. Simmons has many flaws, all of which he should work on, but the coach and his team's star both threw him under the bus at every opportunity, and the GM tried to trade him then lied about it. That situation is broken, and everyone involved should just move on.

Also, as Gash points out, PHI knows who Simmons is, they've known for years. You can't suddenly be "shocked" at his inability to shoot and blame it for your problems, but simultaneously say "oh we want to build around him", he knows the drill, if they fail he's always going to get the blame, so there is no reason for him to stay. Also... I really don't think Simmons is why they let go of Butler. It's a fun story, but they let him go because the coach hated him, he was disruptive and he had a similar problem to everywhere else, he wants to be the alpha but probably isn't really good enough. They didn't get rid of him to accomodate Simmons as much as because he brings many of the same issues with Embiid (he needs the ball in crunch time because he can't shoot), and the 3 was a mess yes, but any 2 of the 3 is a mess too.

Re the bolded:

Rivers spent all of last season talking up Simmons with same gusto he promoted DeAndre Jordan as DPOY candidate. Yes, in the aftermath of a brutal loss, he and Embiid commited a Kinsley gaffe. I certainly don't fault Simmons for wanting out after their honesty. But he could have be a professional, show up, play some regular season games, put some distance and new tape between his playoff disappearance, rebuild his trade value and get moved by the deadline.

Simmons trade value cratering is not about his inability to shoot. He's never been able to shoot and as has been noted by many in the thread has made All Star and All NBA teams. It's the unwillingness to shoot when the games matter that's the problem.

I have no problem with what Embiid said either, but those words have consequences. Those consequences are bye bye Ben.

It was already bye bye Ben. He is getting traded, it's just a question of when. Embiid's response to latest leak/justification from Simmons' camp was definitely a win for Simmons, in that Embiid answered honestly instead of strategically. But I find it hard to fault him for that. He's 27 year old professional basketball, not a PR guy. He has altered his game to accommodate Simmons, spending more time spacing the floor then he would prefer. If you're in Embiid shoes, what has Simmons done to change his game to make the team better, to make the fit smoother? Can anyone point to anything?

Bontemps made what I think was a good point, re this latest dust up. While its a "win" for Simmons, there is a limit to how many these dust ups he can create. At some point, his camp is going to run out of new explanations for the trade demand to leak. I don't think the passage of team is going increase his leverage unless Sixers really suck. Philly fans seem to be behind the team, and they have the Eagles to complain about. If Simmons were in camp and had the fortitude for a Jimmy Butler kind of scorched earth campaign, or a James Harden on court pout fest, then it might threaten to derail the season and get too uncomfortable for Morey. With him removed from the team, once the season starts it is going to get increasingly difficult for Simmons camp to generate these kind of incidents (again unless the Sixers' suck).

 

[Kliq]

Second, it would take quite of bit of revisionist history to cast Butler's leaving on Simmons. No one in PHI (except maybe Reddick and he was gone too) made a play to get Butler back at any point during the season or (from what Butler says) immediately after the playoffs ended. To the best of my recollection, I don't remember Embiid lobbying for Butler to stay. If you listened to Butler talk to Reddick, Butler saw the writing on the wall pretty early on.

I don't really know what this is supposed to mean. Embiid states that one of the reasons Butler was not retained was because Philly wanted to get the ball more in Simmons' hands, which clearly wasn't going to happen if another star perimeter player was on the team. At the time, it's possible Embiid believed in that strategy as well, or at least accepted it as the move the front office was determined to make. So if he didn't lobby for Butler, that would probably be the reason. I'd be surprised if another star player was against bringing in another star player, given what we know about the NBA. That makes it frustrating for Embiid, who went along with the "We don't need Jimmy, we need Ben to get the ball more" idea only to see Simmons not take those progressive steps forward and then ultimately insist that Embiid is a bad fit for him.

Butler didn't like Brown, although I find it somewhat hard to believe Philly chose Brown over Butler; if push comes to shove they would have fired the coach who was already on the hot seat in order to land the Top 15 or so player. I'd deem it likely that given what we know about both players, Butler wasn't too keen on playing with Simmons. That seems like two very different personalities with different approaches to the game.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Where does Tobias Harris fit into all of this? I thought some of Butler leaving was a weird ass preference to Tobias Harris. Maybe that was because they thought he was a better fit with Simmons.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I don't really know what this is supposed to mean. Embiid states that one of the reasons Butler was not retained was because Philly wanted to get the ball more in Simmons' hands, which clearly wasn't going to happen if another star perimeter player was on the team. At the time, it's possible Embiid believed in that strategy as well, or at least accepted it as the move the front office was determined to make. So if he didn't lobby for Butler, that would probably be the reason. I'd be surprised if another star player was against bringing in another star player, given what we know about the NBA. That makes it frustrating for Embiid, who went along with the "We don't need Jimmy, we need Ben to get the ball more" idea only to see Simmons not take those progressive steps forward and then ultimately insist that Embiid is a bad fit for him.

Butler didn't like Brown, although I find it somewhat hard to believe Philly chose Brown over Butler; if push comes to shove they would have fired the coach who was already on the hot seat in order to land the Top 15 or so player. I'd deem it likely that given what we know about both players, Butler wasn't too keen on playing with Simmons. That seems like two very different personalities with different approaches to the game.

You might want to watch this video. (I started it at the point Butler talks about PHI.) Keep going until the 31 minute mark when Butler tells a story about hearing whether he can be "controlled."

Yes I'm sure style of play was an issue (Butler remarks as much) but according to Butler, there was way going on than just Xs and Os.

Will note the other thing that Brand was kicking Reddick out the door was not the greatest decision either IMO.

View: https://youtu.be/HrGv50kR7A4?t=1412

 

[benhogan]

Where does Tobias Harris fit into all of this? I thought some of Butler leaving was a weird ass preference to Tobias Harris. Maybe that was because they thought he was a better fit with Simmons.

Tobias was the consolation prize* with Butler snubbing them.

Butler didn't like Brett Brown's approach, at least that's what he said to JJ Redick (who was a huge Brett fan). JB also probably didn't care for Simmon's work ethic/non-improvement mindset, but he has never said that. Players usually don't throw each other under the bus. I don't care how frustrated Embiid is, you don't dent Simmon's trade value when you're trying to win Championships, no excuse it's moronic for him to say the Butler/Simmons stuff. Klutch is licking its chops, no going back now and the amount of trade capital Philly gets probably takes a small hit (which helps Ben's next team)

*Harris had a fantastic season last year (by far his best off & def season in his career). The Clipper trade and MAX signing were both questionable at the time. BUT it worked out for Philly, one of the few things that have over recent seasons.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Tobias was the consolation prize* with Butler snubbing them.

Butler didn't like Brett Brown's approach, at least that's what he said to JJ Redick (who was a huge Brett fan). JB also probably didn't care for Simmon's work ethic/non-improvement mindset, but he has never said that. Players usually don't throw each other under the bus. I don't care how frustrated Embiid is, you don't dent Simmon's trade value when you're trying to win Championships, no excuse it's moronic for him to say the Butler/Simmons stuff. Klutch is licking its chops, no going back now and the amount of trade capital Philly gets probably takes a small hit (which helps Ben's next team)

*Harris had a fantastic season last year (by far his best off & def season in his career). The Clipper trade and MAX signing were both questionable at the time. BUT it worked out for Philly, one of the few things that have over recent seasons.

Based on the timing I'm pretty sure PHI traded for Harris because they had already decided that they weren't going to give Jimmy the contract he wanted.

Jimmy Butler is a hard guy to parse why he moved on because there are so many parts:
1. Yeah his fit with SImmons was pretty poor.
2. His fit with Embiid wasn't great either
3. He's a notorious asshole who makes your lockerroom very combustible.
4. He likes being the alpha, a role other teams would offer him that PHI didn't want to (rightly, that needs to be Embiid's team)
5. He's a coach killer, if you kept him you had to fire Brown, and you risked in 1-2 years Jimmy falling out with the new coach.

Sure if Simmons wasn't on the team maybe they are more likely to keep Jimmy, but that's not really a Simmons thing, it's any guard/wing who doesn't shoot well. Jimmy can't really shoot 3s consistently, he's highly FT dependent. If the PG on that team was De'Aaron Fox it would have been a bad fit too, you can't have a team with a star big and multiple other guys who aren't good 3pt shooters. Even having your 2nd guy not be a 3pt shooter is less than ideal.

 

[benhogan]

Based on the timing I'm pretty sure PHI traded for Harris because they had already decided that they weren't going to give Jimmy the contract he wanted.

Jimmy Butler is a hard guy to parse why he moved on because there are so many parts:
1. Yeah his fit with SImmons was pretty poor.
2. His fit with Embiid wasn't great either
3. He's a notorious asshole who makes your lockerroom very combustible.
4. He likes being the alpha, a role other teams would offer him that PHI didn't want to (rightly, that needs to be Embiid's team)
5. He's a coach killer, if you kept him you had to fire Brown, and you risked in 1-2 years Jimmy falling out with the new coach.

Sure if Simmons wasn't on the team maybe they are more likely to keep Jimmy, but that's not really a Simmons thing, it's any guard/wing who doesn't shoot well. Jimmy can't really shoot 3s consistently, he's highly FT dependent. If the PG on that team was De'Aaron Fox it would have been a bad fit too, you can't have a team with a star big and multiple other guys who aren't good 3pt shooters. Even having your 2nd guy not be a 3pt shooter is less than ideal.

Yea your Butler analysis sounds pretty spot on.

Brand had to overpay to keep Tobias. That trade/contract was met with a lukewarm response. Less than a year ago it was considered by some to be the 2nd worst contract in the NBA (John Wall. Undisputed, reigning Champ). SI still considers it a terrible NBA contract (which I don't agree with now)

https://www.si.com/nba/76ers/news/sixers-tobias-harris-overpaid-nba

View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2912603-ranking-the-nbas-10-most-overpaid-players-right-now

 

[Cellar-Door]

So sixers did not pay Simmons today, two takes on it:
1. View: https://twitter.com/JakeLFischer/status/1444004600940572674

Jake Fischer a Philly based guy says there are rumors Ben will report to get the money but claim injury
2. View: https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1444013282281525253

Shams saying that Simmons knew this would happen and is not concerned (that came from Klutch for sure)

I think Shams is right... also, until he misses games you're really just delaying when he gets paid, the money isn't gone.

On a semi-related note, this was the most interesting bit from the Fischer piece:

But at this juncture, it appears no trade conversations between the Sixers and rival teams are in advanced stages.

“We are in training camp with our full roster,” said one assistant general manager of a team that held negotiations with the Sixers this offseason. “Only Philly is concerned about a trade right now.”

Which tells me, Morey is still asking for the moon, but teams are basically certain that Simmons is getting traded, and all the pressure is on PHI, and other teams would rather wait until guys are available for trade (Dec. 15) to get serious, knowing most teams can't really make a deal until then anyway.

 

[Big McCorkle]

I'm kind of curious, how many three pointers would you guess that Simmons has put up in the gym this offseason? More or less than five hundred?

Him wanting out because Philly is a bad fit is reasonable, but at this point the reason it's a bad fit is pretty much his own fault. This isn't to suggest he's lazy, because it's pretty apparent that he spends plenty of time training and most of the time plays with energy on the court, but the lack of crucial skill development is just weird to me and I'm having a hard time explaining it any way other than a very poor allocation of time.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I'm kind of curious, how many three pointers would you guess that Simmons has put up in the gym this offseason? More or less than five hundred?

Him wanting out because Philly is a bad fit is reasonable, but at this point the reason it's a bad fit is pretty much his own fault. This isn't to suggest he's lazy, because it's pretty apparent that he spends plenty of time training and most of the time plays with energy on the court, but the lack of crucial skill development is just weird to me and I'm having a hard time explaining it any way other than a very poor allocation of time.

I bet he put up tons. Thing is, he supposedly always practiced 3s, he just never pulled the trigger (well technically 10 times) in a game. It would be hillarious if he gets traded and immediately starts putting up 3-4 3PA a game.

 

[nighthob]

I bet he put up tons. Thing is, he supposedly always practiced 3s, he just never pulled the trigger (well technically 10 times) in a game. It would be hillarious if he gets traded and immediately starts putting up 3-4 3PA a game.

I have a better chance of winning the Powerball tomorrow night than Simmons's next team has of him averaging two treys per game (much less 3-4).

Nah, he should get out of town. Simmons has many flaws, all of which he should work on, but the coach and his team's star both threw him under the bus at every opportunity, and the GM tried to trade him then lied about it. That situation is broken, and everyone involved should just move on.

I know they claimed that after the fact, but at the time they were actually hesitating to pay full price for Harden. If they were offering Simmons for Harden Simmons would be a Rocket.

Doubt it. We know Simmons isn’t comfortable taking shots…

Excellent job there. Two thumbs up.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I have a better chance of winning the Powerball tomorrow night than Simmons's next team has of him averaging two treys per game (much less 3-4).



I know they claimed that after the fact, but at the time they were actually hesitating to pay full price for Harden. If they were offering Simmons for Harden Simmons would be a Rocket.



Excellent job there. Two thumbs up.

Well the word was they ran it by Embiid, so they at least were discussing it, and got that far. Hard to totally parse what happened there. My guess is that they discussed it but no formal offer, and Tilman also got involved in not wanting to trade with Morey.... plus Harden didn't want to go anywhere but Brooklyn, which all combined such that PHI never had to pull the trigger, but that enough people knew that Ben knew that it was close.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I'm kind of curious, how many three pointers would you guess that Simmons has put up in the gym this offseason? More or less than five hundred?

Him wanting out because Philly is a bad fit is reasonable, but at this point the reason it's a bad fit is pretty much his own fault. This isn't to suggest he's lazy, because it's pretty apparent that he spends plenty of time training and most of the time plays with energy on the court, but the lack of crucial skill development is just weird to me and I'm having a hard time explaining it any way other than a very poor allocation of time.

Probably 500 a day. Doesn't mean anything if it doesn't translate to NBA games though.

 

[bsj]

Wasn’t the fake injury what Kawhi did on his way out of SA?

 

[Tony C]

Ummmmm. So then Embiid is right and in my quote post to Tony C, I expressed the fact that I can see why Joel is frustrated with Simmons and it's maybe why Embiid is talking about it.

And I appreciate you making that Righteously Indignant quip while being similarly Righteous. That's good branding right there.

My point wasn't that Simmons was right and Embiid is wrong. Embiid is probably more or less right, as was Doc when he also threw Simmons under the bus after the playoff series.

The point is it's not their job to be honest and "right" nor is it in their best interest. Let sportswriters and internet wags opine -- Simmons is getting plenty of criticism. And let Embiid and Doc go home and tell their family members that Simmons is a wuss who didn't step up. But this is no different than any job. I have colleagues who I think suck -- but I also need to have, at worst, a working relationship with them and, at best, help them improve. So in public comments I'm not exactly truthful about them. The same is true -- x a million -- for people like Embiid and, especially, Doc. Sure "Joel is frustrated" and rightly so. And probably it doesn't matter. But on the less than 1% chance there's a twist and Simmons might be coming back, well Joel just blew that and further reduced the talent that his team can back for him.

In short: often in life it's best just to shut up. Embiid didn't help his team. Admittedly he probably didn't hurt it, but there's a slim chance he did.

Doc was desperately searching for someone to blame after his team underperformed in the playoffs for about the 10th straight season.

Edit- people forgot it in the Simmons stuff but former players and people around the league were calling out Doc pretty hard about his teams constant under-performance in the playoffs.

I really like Doc...but how is this not true? Even more than Embiid, it's Doc's job to keep his players happy. He has failed miserably with Simmons. That isn't to say Simmons has pulled his weight -- he hasn't -- but., as with Embiid (but even more so), Doc's job isn't to be Steven A or Max Kellerman and comment. Leave that to them and the 100s of others who do that. His job is to get Simmons to pull his weight. Given Doc's many many failures (amid, of course, one big success), I'd think he'd hold off on the need to be honest about the faults of his players. He should do that out of his own self interest in doing a good job -- i.e., in doing what he's paid to do.

In short: there's lots of blame to go around and no one needs to be Team Simmons or Team Embiid etc....

 

[BigSoxFan]

Wasn’t the fake injury what Kawhi did on his way out of SA?

I think Kawhi had a real injury to start but then slow played the recovery time to get what he wanted (a trade). Could definitely see Simmons try something similar.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Wasn’t the fake injury what Kawhi did on his way out of SA?

Not precisely fake, but yeah slow play and disagree with team doctors. Thing is I bet every pro athlete has SOME injury all the time, I bet Simmons' back or knee could "use rest to recover" if it came to it.

 

[EvilEmpire]

I don't think any of the comments made an impact on Simmons' trade value. Nothing Embiid said was a secret that wasn't seen and widely acknowledged. The whole situation is like a bad reality TV show. It's all out on front street.

That said, Embiid's comments probably help keep Simmons far far away until he is traded. I do not think there will be an agreement where everyone pretends to like each other for a little while and Ben shows up and plays until December when he gets traded. Whether he did it on purpose or not, somehow I don't think Embiid will mind that.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I don't think any of the comments made an impact on Simmons' trade value. Nothing Embiid said was a secret that wasn't seen and widely acknowledged. The whole situation is like a bad reality TV show. It's all out on front street.

That said, Embiid's comments probably help keep Simmons far far away until he is traded. I do not think there will be an agreement where everyone pretends to like each other for a little while and Ben shows up and plays until December when he gets traded. Whether he did it on purpose or not, somehow I don't think Embiid will mind that.

If Embiid's comments caused a potential trade partner to pull a piece out of a trade, I would argue that team has no business acquiring Ben Simmons to start. As far as I can tell, the 76ers needed to trade Simmons last Friday because the relationship between the two sides was irreparably damaged. That is still the case today, even with Embiid and the paycheck stuff.

 

[nighthob]

Wasn’t the fake injury what Kawhi did on his way out of SA?

Kawhi has a chronic injury thanks to that cheap shot from Count Pachulia in the playoffs a few years back. Nothing fake about the fact that he missed a season and then 20+ games a year thereafter. He suffered calcification of the quadricep muscle. His problem with the Spurs is that they wanted him to play through the injury, which turned out to be worse than the team doctors told him. Once the doctor he consulted told him a different story than the team doctors did, the jig was up.

 

[Swedgin]

If Embiid's comments caused a potential trade partner to pull a piece out of a trade, I would argue that team has no business acquiring Ben Simmons to start. As far as I can tell, the 76ers needed to trade Simmons last Friday because the relationship between the two sides was irreparably damaged. That is still the case today, even with Embiid and the paycheck stuff.

That's not the calculus. It is not about team pulling part its offer. Klutch/Simmons' strategy, the raison d'etre, for the hold out, is to make things uncomfortable enough for the 76er's that they trade Ben sooner rather than later. The goal is to convince Morey that there is not a better package coming down the line - that he has to move Simmons now or piss away this whole season.

Simmons camp fed the story about his poor fit with Embiid for two reasons: 1) to create a news item, which Embiid and the team would be asked about and might in turn create another news event, which it did b/c Joel took the bait and 2) to create a more positive spin for the public narrative (i.e. no Ben is not soft or petty being unable to overcome Doc and Joel's honest answers to the press after he punk'd out in a playoff gain - Ben is a great player who is stifled playing with Ebmiid and needs to move on to a new situation to reach his full potential - nothing personal - just professional growth.)

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

That's not the calculus. It is not about team pulling part its offer. Klutch/Simmons' strategy, the raison d'etre, for the hold out, is to make things uncomfortable enough for the 76er's that they trade Ben sooner rather than later. The goal is to convince Morey that there is not a better package coming down the line - that he has to move Simmons now or piss away this whole season.

Simmons camp fed the story about his poor fit with Embiid for two reasons: 1) to create a news item, which Embiid and the team would be asked about and might in turn create another news event, which it did b/c Joel took the bait and 2) to create a more positive spin for the public narrative (i.e. no Ben is not soft or petty being unable to overcome Doc and Joel's honest answers to the press after he punk'd out in a playoff gain - Ben is a great player who is stifled playing with Ebmiid and needs to move on to a new situation to reach his full potential - nothing personal - just professional growth.)

I get it but I don't see anything changing. Realistically, Simmons has needed to be disappeared from the 76ers since he passed out of that dunk. I don't doubt that Morey wants to wait and it would make sense for Simmons to push for resolution. However I can't see trades packages changing as a result of this week's activity.

In the end, besides those involved, who knows? I would guess we are closer to a resolution than last week only because the season is almost here. Maybe you people are right and Morey rides into the season with this unresolved. However its Philly, everyone watching knows the relationship is ruined and the 76ers are good enough that the cost of a distraction like this might be greater than a bad trade package. At least with the latter, you are dealing with known unknowns.

The NBA really is a soap opera sometimes.

 

[EvilEmpire]

It has been mentioned a few times that a lot more guys can be traded in Dec. It was already unlikely before anyway, but after Embiid's comments I think there is even less chance that Simmons is going to come back to Philly and pull a Harden.

If Simmons stays away from the team and isn't a daily distraction, I don't think the team will have much problem dealing with the situation. At least not so much of a problem that it isn't worth waiting until December to see if a better deal is out there.

A crappy pick heavy deal available now will be there in December.

 

[benhogan]

It has been mentioned a few times that a lot more guys can be traded in Dec. It was already unlikely before anyway, but after Embiid's comments I think there is even less chance that Simmons is going to come back to Philly and pull a Harden.

If Simmons stays away from the team and isn't a daily distraction, I don't think the team will have much problem dealing with the situation. At least not so much of a problem that it isn't worth waiting until December to see if a better deal is out there.

A crappy pick heavy deal available now will be there in December.

Yep, there are numerous reasons why Morey should wait until December.

A panic sell low now, does zero for the 76ers, except cater to Klutch's whims

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I bet he put up tons. Thing is, he supposedly always practiced 3s, he just never pulled the trigger (well technically 10 times) in a game. It would be hillarious if he gets traded and immediately starts putting up 3-4 3PA a game.

It's crazy because 3-4 3PA a game at even 33% is the difference between "max" guy and "top 10" or even "top 5" guy.

I don't see it ever becoming a legit part of his game but players have added the 3 far later into their careers. Granted, in today's NBA, players are usually adding it sooner than later.

It's also his only real path to ever being more than the other guy. Being the other guy is a pretty lucrative career though.

Ben Hogan used some term to describe it that I don't remember. In the 1 universe out of billions that Ben SImmons is hitting 3s, the team and gm will be showered with platitudes and be labeled geniuses. Probably win a few rings too, depending on the other players around him. It'll be one of the worst trades of all time.

 

[EvilEmpire]

Yep, there are numerous reasons why Morey should wait until December.

A panic sell low now, does zero for the 76ers, except cater to Klutch's whims

Definitely. If Morey deals now, is the distraction done? I don't think so. If the team struggles at all afterward, the perception of a bad deal could cause the stench of it all to linger for a long, long time. There would always be the unknown of "what if they had waited until December when more players were available?", and the narrative will be that a better deal was there. Even if there isn't, if Morey takes the same deal in December, the sense of due diligence might be different.

Morey's pissed at Simmons.
Embiid's pissed at Simmons.
Fans are pissed at Simmons.

I think there is plenty of motivation and support to slow play things until December and to not quickly give Simmons what he wants because the situation is uncomfortable. Unless Morey can secure a great deal now, which seems unlikely, a deal in December could end things a bit more cleanly.

Of course it is all relative because it It's still a shitshow.

 

[Jimbodandy]

It's crazy because 3-4 3PA a game at even 33% is the difference between "max" guy and "top 10" or even "top 5" guy.

I don't see it ever becoming a legit part of his game but players have added the 3 far later into their careers. Granted, in today's NBA, players are usually adding it sooner than later.

It's also his only real path to ever being more than the other guy. Being the other guy is a pretty lucrative career though.

Ben Hogan used some term to describe it that I don't remember. In the 1 universe out of billions that Ben SImmons is hitting 3s, the team and gm will be showered with platitudes and be labeled geniuses. Probably win a few rings too, depending on the other players around him. It'll be one of the worst trades of all time.

I'm still trying to understand why we think that he's a top 2/3 defensive player, when I haven't seen any numbers that support that.

He is a top 10 player at 33% on 4 attempts, but I'm not sure if it puts him top 5. Who does he bump from the top 5, Lebron, Giannis, KD, Kawhi, or Steph? He's in the next tier IMO with Harden.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I'm still trying to understand why we think that he's a top 2/3 defensive player, when I haven't seen any numbers that support that.

His ability to switch probably.

 

[Swedgin]

I'm still trying to understand why we think that he's a top 2/3 defensive player, when I haven't seen any numbers that support that.

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/CUX5h7flFOO/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

[Jimbodandy]

That's a fantastic metric, thanks. So it puts him around the top 10 using that measure. Same rough points-per-shot as a bunch of guys who defended more shots like Noel, Poeltl, Turner, and Zubac. More PPS allowed than Crowder, Gay, Gobert. On the left side of the bell curve in count of shots defended.

 

[Smokey Joe]

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/CUX5h7flFOO/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Rudy Gay? Is there some Rudy Effect that I don’t know about? Where would Rudy Tomjanovich graph out?

 

[Jimbodandy]

Rudy Gay? Is there some Rudy Effect that I don’t know about? Where would Rudy Tomjanovich graph out?

It's on a small number of shots. Still interesting though. Could be a Spurs effect.

 

[benhogan]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264262/Several-Teams-Still-Inquiring-About-Ben-Simmons-Trade

The article named numerous teams in the hunt.

Sacramento, my favorite to land BS, was not named (that's how little I know )

 

[Devizier]

Looking at trade matchups, that’s a pretty horrible mix. The best you might be able to do is Jerami Grant, but Detroit is probably opening with the other junk on their roster.

Unlike others, I think DLo is pretty bad.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Rudy Gay? Is there some Rudy Effect that I don’t know about? Where would Rudy Tomjanovich graph out?

He’s super long, good athlete and closes out well so players aren’t taking those clean looks (similar to Simmons) as opposed to a midget like Chris Paul who guys can get shots up over whenever they choose or like an Olynyk with his lack of wingspan and athleticism to challenge shot.

 

[ifmanis5]

Pacers rumors heating up.
View: https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/1445388143016960016

A few notes on Ben Simmons, including SAC's interest & how the situation in Philly could impact the local teams:

View: https://twitter.com/NBAKrell/status/1445390540422459403

“League sources confirm that the Pacers are among the teams who have talked to the Philadelphia 76ers about a potential Simmons trade. Caris LeVert was among the players brought up in those communications, per SNY sources.”

 

[Cesar Crespo]

When thinking of ideal situations for Ben Simmons on the court, the Pacers were the 2nd team I mentioned right behind the Wolves.

One would imagine the Pacers would want to move Turner in any deal, but they could pair him with one of LeVert, Brogdon or Warren. Regardless of who Indy traded among that group, Simmons still fits in great with the Pacers.

They'd never trade Sabonis for Simmons, but even in that scenario, Ben should be a good fit next to Myles. That would open Myles up on defense too. Some might argue Turner is a better fit if you don't think Sabonis will add the 3 to his game. I think he will, given he hits more than 40% of his shots from 16'-3.

If the Pacers could choose, I think they'd pick Turner and LeVert. With a Sabonis/Warren/Simmons/Brogdon core, you can pretty much add whatever type of player you want for the 5th spot, as long as they can shoot.

I want Simmons on Minnesota or Indy. I think it would be great for the NBA and if things break the right way, both would be title contenders with him (Warren returns 100% and Sabonis adds the 3, or Edwards continued development).

I wouldn't mind Sacramento either because it's not a FA destination. I just don't think it's particularly good fit unless Fox is the one being traded.

 

[Smokey Joe]

If Simmons goes to the Pacers for Lavert and Turner, Philly is going to want to flip Turner somewhere else. Danny tried to find somewhere to flip him during the Hayward trade negotiations and failed. Now he only has 2 years left on his contract instead of 3, so he might be more palatable.

 

[Rustjive]

Seems like Levert + Turner would be pretty low value for SImmons, especially when considering that Danny was asking for Oladipo/Warren + Turner instead of McDermott + Turner for a Hayward S&T. Oladipo was basically traded for Levert straight up. Turner's still just a neutral trade asset at best, IMO. While Danny's asking price was probably too high, it's probably too low for Simmons. Levert + Warren (if Warren were healthy) might be closer (but makes a lot less sense for the Pacers roster construction wise).

 

[JM3]

I don't hate the Turner/Embiid fit. Especially considering resting Embiid should be important for the 76ers during the regular season.

But yeah, it's still not a great offer, especially with LeVert's health (stress fracture in back) unless maybe they include the array of picks.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

If Simmons goes to the Pacers for Lavert and Turner, Philly is going to want to flip Turner somewhere else. Danny tried to find somewhere to flip him during the Hayward trade negotiations and failed. Now he only has 2 years left on his contract instead of 3, so he might be more palatable.

He's also coming off his best year to date which won't hurt. I was just looking at Turner's shot chart and he's a much better shooter than I thought he'd be from mid range. From 10'-16' he's at .449 and from 16'-3 he's at .427. He is a career .352 3 point shooter on 938 attempts. Maybe there's room for growth. Last year, he also attempted 206 3s and 226 2s. 80.6% of his shots were from 0-3ft or 3 pointers. 47.7% of his attempts last year were from 3, the year before, 42.6%. I wonder what would happen if he were allowed to play inside more. That won't happen on a team with Embiid, Sabonis or Simmons though. Probably wise of Turner to just go the Brook Lopez route.

I also don't believe those reports that Ainge tried to flip Turner and couldn't find a landing spot. As far as this year is concerned, I'd find it impossible given the contracts Allen and TL just signed.

Seems like Levert + Turner would be pretty low value for SImmons, especially when considering that Danny was asking for Oladipo/Warren + Turner instead of McDermott + Turner for a Hayward S&T. Oladipo was basically traded for Levert straight up. Turner's still just a neutral trade asset at best, IMO. While Danny's asking price was probably too high, it's probably too low for Simmons. Levert + Warren (if Warren were healthy) might be closer (but makes a lot less sense for the Pacers roster construction wise).

It is pretty low value but any deal for Simmons is going to be pretty low value. The names being thrown around are Draymond Green, DLo, LeVert. Far cry from James Harden.

Indiana would never do LeVert and a healthy Warren. That would be too much, and it would leave them with Simmons, Sabonis and Turner. Other teams would know they'd have to move Turner and make them pay to do so.

Honestly, I think a fully healthy TJ Warren makes the 76ers better than Simmons, never mind adding in LeVert. That would make the 76ers an incredibly deep team, though LeVert at PG could be an issue. Embiid/Warren/Harris/Curry/LeVert with Green and friends off the bench. That's a team.

LeVert or Brogdon would both fit in perfectly with the 76ers. It would be a matter of trading Turner for a PG or a wing. I wonder if NO would have any interest in Myles Turner. A Turner/Zion pairing might work.


Actually, you know what team makes a lot of sense for Myles Turner? Sacramento. The problem with that, both teams would probably want Simmons.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Indiana gets Ben Simmons
Philly gets LeVert or Brogdon, Hield, Mitchell, picks from Indy
Sacramento gets Myles Turner, Maxey

 

[JM3]

Seems like a no-brainer for the Kings, but I'm probably more down on Hield/Mitchell than just about anyone.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Seems like a no-brainer for the Kings, but I'm probably more down on Hield/Mitchell than just about anyone.

No brainer for everyone but Philly, really. Sacramento could actually use Myles Turner, get out of a few years from Hield and maybe slightly downgrade from Mitchell to Maxey.
Indiana gets rid of a few surplus rotation players for what looks like a huge upgrade to the starting 5.

Philly gets Brogdon or LeVert to replace Simmons, gets a tradeable asset in Maxey + picks, and someone to spread the floor in Hield, though he's really redundant to Curry.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Yeah Philly keeps getting shafted in these trade proposals. I love to see them get the short end of the stick here, but they won't.

 

[nighthob]

When thinking of ideal situations for Ben Simmons on the court, the Pacers were the 2nd team I mentioned right behind the Wolves.

One would imagine the Pacers would want to move Turner in any deal, but they could pair him with one of LeVert, Brogdon or Warren. Regardless of who Indy traded among that group, Simmons still fits in great with the Pacers.

They'd never trade Sabonis for Simmons, but even in that scenario, Ben should be a good fit next to Myles. That would open Myles up on defense too. Some might argue Turner is a better fit if you don't think Sabonis will add the 3 to his game. I think he will, given he hits more than 40% of his shots from 16'-3.

If the Pacers could choose, I think they'd pick Turner and LeVert. With a Sabonis/Warren/Simmons/Brogdon core, you can pretty much add whatever type of player you want for the 5th spot, as long as they can shoot.

I want Simmons on Minnesota or Indy. I think it would be great for the NBA and if things break the right way, both would be title contenders with him (Warren returns 100% and Sabonis adds the 3, or Edwards continued development).

I wouldn't mind Sacramento either because it's not a FA destination. I just don't think it's particularly good fit unless Fox is the one being traded.

Why would Philly be interested in a backup C and a wing that’s dealing with a chronic injury (on top of the 17,963 injuries before the fractured back).

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Why would Philly be interested in a backup C and a wing that’s dealing with a chronic injury (on top of the 17,963 injuries before the fractured back).

They wouldn't be interested in Myles (they'd find a 3rd team) and "NBA sources" are saying the 76ers/Pacers have discussed a trade involving Simmons, and LeVert was brought up.

I don't see him going to the Pacers anyway. If the offers are going to be pretty meh, you'd think the 76ers would prefer to trade him out of conference.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Warren's foot is clearly a concern but I agree with @Cesar Crespo. If the 76ers can get him out of Indy instead of LeVert, this might become something more than a fire sale.

 

[nighthob]

They wouldn't be interested in Myles (they'd find a 3rd team) and "NBA sources" are saying the 76ers/Pacers have discussed a trade involving Simmons, and LeVert was brought up.

Yeah, by Indiana’s GM. The fact that Pritchard is trying to get something for nothing shouldn’t be a surprise. But let’s stop pretending that it’s even possible. LaVert’s got back problems for life now. Which means that the mythical “healthy LaVert” that people here seem to believe in is now officially living on an island off the coast of Scotland with Nessie and Bigfoot.