Ben Simmons wants out of Philadelphia

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gdiguy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,255
San Diego, CA
In the thread in V&N, there is a conversation was about how powerful luck is.

Ben Simmons is unequivocally one of the luckiest humans on the planet. This doesn't mean he doesn't have challenges. Everyone has challenges. But he has the help and resources to do whatever it is he needs to do.
My biggest stressor is my job too. What's yours? If you walk out of the office, and tell your employer you're not "mentally prepared to work" because your boss is a big meanie poopy head, and you think you deserve to go play golf and take a "mental health" day, does that mean you are suffering from mental illness, or you just don't like your fucking job and/or your boss or your colleagues?

You and Cesar Crespo have just as little evidence that Ben Simmons has a mental illness than muddychicken has that he doesn't, but get on that high horse. I mean, you've literally given cover to Ben Simmons to do anything he wants. Poor Ben Simmons, he has a mental illness. He can't play for the Sixers because of it.

Mental illness isn't fixed because you change the shirt of the team you're playing for, and to insinuate that it's that easy to resolve, as you just did, is a disservice to anyone who suffers from mental illness.
But that's part of the point, though - if the vast majority of us have significant issues with our boss and co-workers to the point where they're publicly trashing us and it's a major component of our stress, the advice that we would get to help our mental state would be 'maybe you should quit and take a job at another company'.

The broader shooting issues - yeah, he has plenty of resources and should be trying to address that. But the primary driving issue right now has moved beyond that to a complete lack of trust and respect within his workplace, and that's very easily solved by moving to a different place and very difficult to solve otherwise
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,645
I would be less skeptical of his mental health issues if this summer he had been saying he was not ready or willing to play, not that he was ready or willing to play for teams other than the 76ers.
I mean, in the post-game 7 press conference he said “First thing I need to do is clear my mind and get my mental (health) right.” Going back through the quotes and the leaks (and quotes from others, both his Australia coach when he declined Tokyo and teammate Danny Green, talked about him having a tough year in this quote back in June:
"“I saw a kid that had been going through a lot the whole year — mentally, emotionally, inside, outside, off the court with his family, things back home,” Green said. “And he doesn’t necessarily discuss it with us in private, but I knew he was going through a lot. He had some things going on during the season.”
So it's not that his mental issues haven't been out there, it's more that he's been pretty private, and most people don't pull the "he had a mentally tough year and needs to figure that stuff out" quotes when they can pull juicier quotes that have less nuance.

I also am not sure that he said he was ready to play, his camp said he didn't think Philly was the right place for him, but was not restricting where he'd go in a trade.

Part of taking care of your mental health is often just not being in a place that isn't conducive to good mental health. He (probably rightly) didn't think PHI was going to be a place that was good for him, that's pretty reasonable. People treat mental health like it's a lightswitch, either you're in a good place mentally or you have some named mental illness that is what it is. It's more complicated than that. Being in PHI based on the past he has there is going to have a lot of different effects and stressors that being somewhere else would not.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,942
Rotten Apple
Both sides (Ben's people and Morey) should have done this months ago and they wouldn't have tanked the value of the asset.
View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1451582221152710662

ESPN story on Sixers All-Star Ben Simmons' plans to meet with medical professionals for an assessment:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32452090/ben-simmons-tells-philadelphia-76ers-not-mentally-ready-play-sources-say
After he told the team's medical staff of his reasons for needing to seek help, the Sixers continued to offer Simmons whatever resources are necessary to assist him, sources said.
 

GoJeff!

Member
SoSH Member
May 30, 2007
2,030
Los Angeles
Ben can live a life that only 0.01% of the people on this planet can even comprehend but have 0% chance of realizing. And you're speaking like he's working 10 hours a day in a coal mine. Real stress is not being able to pay your bills or deciding between medication or your child's dinner. Not whether or not you're worried about missing three pointers.
Being famous (and even more so famous and hated) is a different kind of stress than financial stress, but it is very real and can be very intense. People can have extreme mental health issues even when they can pay for anything they would ever want. I'm not attempting to get into Ben Simmon's head, but you are underestimating the pressure on very public figures.
 

themuddychicken

New Member
Mar 26, 2014
81
-edit- nevermind. off-topic and not worth the drama.

tl:dr I find Simmons abusing the sypathy towards mental health to achieve his unrelated goal offensive.
 
Last edited:

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
62,075
New York City
Being famous (and even more so famous and hated) is a different kind of stress than financial stress, but it is very real and can be very intense. People can have extreme mental health issues even when they can pay for anything they would ever want. I'm not attempting to get into Ben Simmon's head, but you are underestimating the pressure on very public figures.
Everything is possible. But Ben Simmons is a guy who dated Kendall Jenner, one of the most famous people in the country and someone who is literally followed around by hoards of paparazzo. That isn't the behavior of a guy who is scared of the spotlight or of fame.
 

jezza1918

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
2,668
South Dartmouth, MA
Both sides (Ben's people and Morey) should have done this months ago and they wouldn't have tanked the value of the asset.
View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1451582221152710662

ESPN story on Sixers All-Star Ben Simmons' plans to meet with medical professionals for an assessment:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32452090/ben-simmons-tells-philadelphia-76ers-not-mentally-ready-play-sources-say
I actually just asked a big sixers fan why they didn't do the bolded...he is making the argument that Sixers have been pushing for this the last couple years and Simmons has totally blown it off. So now it's difficult to know whether Simmon's has actually realized he needs to be proactive and work on his mental health or just using it as an excuse. This is all via a text exchange and I've asked him to source it, if he provides any I will share.
 

GoJeff!

Member
SoSH Member
May 30, 2007
2,030
Los Angeles
Everything is possible. But Ben Simmons is a guy who dated Kendall Jenner, one of the most famous people in the country and someone who is literally followed around by hoards of paparazzo. That isn't the behavior of a guy who is scared of the spotlight or of fame.
Again, I have no clue, but being hated by an entire fanbase is a different feeling than just being chased by paparazzo. And he has no way out right now, which is its own stress.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
27,086
Newton
Everything is possible. But Ben Simmons is a guy who dated Kendall Jenner, one of the most famous people in the country and someone who is literally followed around by hoards of paparazzo. That isn't the behavior of a guy who is scared of the spotlight or of fame.
Lamar Odom was with a Kardashian too. I don't think anyone is suggesting he didn't have serious mental health issues.

I think the credibility problem here is that none of the main players here--Klutch, the Sixers--was arguing Ben struggled with mental health during any of this crazy offseason -- not when Doc and Joel called him out after the Atlanta series, not when he told his teammates not to visit him in LA and not when he showed up at practice this week with his phone in his pocket. It was just that he was unhappy and it was a bad fit. Then, when he gets suspended for conduct detrimental and risks losing game checks, all of a sudden, he isn't mentally ready, needs further assessment, etc. I mean, yeah, that's reason for skepticism.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,645
Lamar Odom was with a Kardashian too. I don't think anyone is suggesting he didn't have serious mental health issues.

I think the credibility problem here is that none of the main players here--Klutch, the Sixers--was arguing Ben struggled with mental health during any of this crazy offseason -- not when Doc and Joel called him out after the Atlanta series, not when he told his teammates not to visit him in LA and not when he showed up at practice this week with his phone in his pocket. It was just that he was unhappy and it was a bad fit. Then, when he gets suspended for conduct detrimental and risks losing game checks, all of a sudden, he isn't mentally ready, needs further assessment, etc. I mean, yeah, that's reason for skepticism.
read upthread, I addressed it, but it definitely was mentioned right after the season and through the summer, just nobody blew it up because "Ben will never return" and "Morey won't trade him for anything less than Lillard" were sexier headlines and tweets.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,645
View: https://twitter.com/andrewsharp/status/1451620684455624706

The Simmons thing is going to get so much nastier if he's going to invoke a mental health exemption to try to not play and still collect 34 million dollars
Any chance insurance would cover that for the team? Agree this is headed down a tough path.

Possible. NBA dictates that teams have to insure their top 5 contracts, so they have insurance on Simmons, question is whether mental health is covered. Regular season ending injuries the team gets around 80% back.
 

bakahump

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2001
7,555
Maine
Any chance insurance would cover that for the team? Agree this is headed down a tough path.

Possible. NBA dictates that teams have to insure their top 5 contracts, so they have insurance on Simmons, question is whether mental health is covered. Regular season ending injuries the team gets around 80% back.
But would still screw them on the salary cap right?
I mean whether its a Knee or a mind......its an injury that doesnt allow them to play but they will still get paid.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,217
But would still screw them on the salary cap right?
I mean whether its a Knee or a mind......its an injury that doesnt allow them to play but they will still get paid.
Yes, only benefit is cash flow, if insurance does cover some of the cost.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,759
where I was last at
Mini-hi-jack but on topic of hi-profile players and stress.

It was an earlier time, and the money not as crazy, but Celtic all-time great, (and one of the All-NBA 75 club) and one of bankshot's favorite Celtic, Dave Cowen's, took some time off mid-season '76-'77 for undisclosed reasons, and missed about 30 games. He also famously drove a cab around this time, to get away from the stress of NBA life and to clear his head.

Sadly Cowens had only 1 year with Bird and crew, and retired for 2 years before returing to the NBA. But I always felt a refreshed and healthy Cowens, who was a spectacular player, would have been an amazing center for Bird and McHale to play with. As good as Parrish was he was no Cowens.

Carry on
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
28,000
Saskatoon Canada
Why can't those two things be linked?
Really?
The recent discussion is about how playing at all, the crowds, etc, is stressful, and he can't deal with it. Those stresses would exist on other teams.
This could be an agent, team, trying to hide the real reason, but in some manner, it doesn't add up. I tend to think Sixers wanted to get as much for him as possible. But, more than a few stories claim, with comments from agents etc, that attempting to trade him for Harden was the beginning of his desire to leave.
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,946
Los Angeles, CA
Really?
The recent discussion is about how playing at all, the crowds, etc, is stressful, and he can't deal with it. Those stresses would exist on other teams.
This could be an agent, team, trying to hide the real reason, but in some manner, it doesn't add up. I tend to think Sixers wanted to get as much for him as possible. But, more than a few stories claim, with comments from agents etc, that attempting to trade him for Harden was the beginning of his desire to leave.
Yes, that's part of what people are saying. But you know it's much more than that specifically in Philadelphia, right? This has also been discussed ad nauseam. Do you think it's an organization which has demonstrated is willing to help him through these challenges in recent months? Losing your management and teammates to the point where they are publicly blaming you would be the final straw for many.
 

terrynever

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 25, 2005
21,717
pawtucket
Really?
The recent discussion is about how playing at all, the crowds, etc, is stressful, and he can't deal with it. Those stresses would exist on other teams.
This could be an agent, team, trying to hide the real reason, but in some manner, it doesn't add up. I tend to think Sixers wanted to get as much for him as possible. But, more than a few stories claim, with comments from agents etc, that attempting to trade him for Harden was the beginning of his desire to leave.
Right on target, Reggie. Ben felt like he and Embiid were both untouchable. And then he wasn’t. Meanwhile, Embiid kept getting better last winter and stayed healthy. 76ers ownership, front office and media pushed Joel as the face of the franchise. But Ben put together a pretty good season if you want to value a player on his defense, versatility and ability to create shots for others. Free throws were really not a major issue until the first game of the playoffs when he missed all six freebies. That’s when the shooting hesitancy began.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,727

Rustjive

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2009
1,048
Everything is possible. But Ben Simmons is a guy who dated Kendall Jenner, one of the most famous people in the country and someone who is literally followed around by hoards of paparazzo. That isn't the behavior of a guy who is scared of the spotlight or of fame.
Man, what is this shit? As much as we like to think the conversation around mental health has evolved, at the end of the day people are really falling back on 'he's rich and he dates beautiful women, how can he possibly be depressed?' Was DeRozan not a star? Was Kevin Love not paid handsomely? DeRozan was beloved in Toronto and his team didn't throw him under the bus. Kevin Love won a championship. And yet.

This type of speculation is so regressive - it's almost victim blaming-esque when you think about another type of topic we suck at discussing. 'Well if I were in this situation, I wouldn't behave like that.' Okay, good for you?
 

Marceline

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2002
6,462
Canton, MA
Man, what is this shit? As much as we like to think the conversation around mental health has evolved, at the end of the day people are really falling back on 'he's rich and he dates beautiful women, how can he possibly be depressed?' Was DeRozan not a star? Was Kevin Love not paid handsomely? DeRozan was beloved in Toronto and his team didn't throw him under the bus. Kevin Love won a championship. And yet.

This type of speculation is so regressive - it's almost victim blaming-esque when you think about another type of topic we suck at discussing. 'Well if I were in this situation, I wouldn't behave like that.' Okay, good for you?
I agree with this post.

Mental illness is a serious thing. If Simmons is saying he's not mentally ready to play, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt until we learn more.

Look, I think it's a bit ridiculous that the guy won't go for a layup in a playoff game. But that doesn't automatically mean he's full of shit or that he isn't struggling here for real.

Just take a look at Naomi Osaka for another example of an athlete struggling with mental illness.

https://joeposnanski.substack.com/p/osaka

When someone says they are not mentally ready to play or that they are struggling with mental illness in any way, our first response shouldn't be that they are lying. It perpetuates a lot of the stigma against mental illness that is still way too common.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,496
around the way
I agree with this post.

Mental illness is a serious thing. If Simmons is saying he's not mentally ready to play, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt until we learn more.

Look, I think it's a bit ridiculous that the guy won't go for a layup in a playoff game. But that doesn't automatically mean he's full of shit or that he isn't struggling here for real.

Just take a look at Naomi Osaka for another example of an athlete struggling with mental illness.

https://joeposnanski.substack.com/p/osaka

When someone says they are not mentally ready to play or that they are struggling with mental illness in any way, our first response shouldn't be that they are lying. It perpetuates a lot of the stigma against mental illness that is still way too common.
Good callout with Osaka. She sat out a major (maybe 2, I forget) rather than be forced to talk to the media. I'd say that the phenomenon is real if she's sitting out majors.

And many of her own peers (who should fucking know better) backed management instead of her (or just staying silent).

Look, I'm sure that fakers exist. But we owe it to people to hear them out before assuming the worst. It's hard enough in this world to admit that you're struggling and ask for help.
 

OnTheBlack

New Member
Dec 23, 2020
307
I don’t think anyone is claiming that you can’t have mental health issues as a rich and famous person, far from it. But the fact he is all of a sudden coming public with this at a time when it results in 34 million dollars and the ability for him to not face the wrath of the Philly fan base is a legitimate reason for skepticism. To brush of that he is acting purely in self interest here is naive in its own right, and frankly, ignores his history of behavior.

Man, what is this shit? As much as we like to think the conversation around mental health has evolved, at the end of the day people are really falling back on 'he's rich and he dates beautiful women, how can he possibly be depressed?' Was DeRozan not a star? Was Kevin Love not paid handsomely? DeRozan was beloved in Toronto and his team didn't throw him under the bus. Kevin Love won a championship. And yet.

This type of speculation is so regressive - it's almost victim blaming-esque when you think about another type of topic we suck at discussing. 'Well if I were in this situation, I wouldn't behave like that.' Okay, good for you?
 

jmcc5400

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2000
5,334
Man, what is this shit? As much as we like to think the conversation around mental health has evolved, at the end of the day people are really falling back on 'he's rich and he dates beautiful women, how can he possibly be depressed?' Was DeRozan not a star? Was Kevin Love not paid handsomely? DeRozan was beloved in Toronto and his team didn't throw him under the bus. Kevin Love won a championship. And yet.

This type of speculation is so regressive - it's almost victim blaming-esque when you think about another type of topic we suck at discussing. 'Well if I were in this situation, I wouldn't behave like that.' Okay, good for you?
Nice post. Nothing Ben Simmons has done over the past 6 months (and beforehand) suggest someone who is emotionally well. Of, course if that is the case he needs to do the work and neither his advisors nor the 76ers have done him any favors.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,645
I don’t think anyone is claiming that you can’t have mental health issues as a rich and famous person, far from it. But the fact he is all of a sudden coming public with this at a time when it results in 34 million dollars and the ability for him to not face the wrath of the Philly fan base is a legitimate reason for skepticism. To brush of that he is acting purely in self interest here is naive in its own right, and frankly, ignores his history of behavior.
I mean, he isn't, he talked about it as soon as the season ended, and it was obviously a factor in wanting out... but sure.
 

Rustjive

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2009
1,048
To brush of that he is acting purely in self interest here is naive in its own right, and frankly, ignores his history of behavior.
I think reading his current claims skeptically reveals a bias that maybe you're not aware of. 'His history of behavior?' Let's see - he didn't take a shot in the 4th quarter of the last 4 games of the Atlanta series. He gave up a surefire dunk to pass to a teammate. His FT% in the regular season was 61.3%; in the playoffs, it was 34.2%. As armchair nobodies we can say that he shrinks in the spotlight, but viewed in a different light he could also have a crippling anxiety disorder that he's having trouble with. Free throws are the closest thing basketball has to the baseball yips. Philly already dealt with this in Fultz too - you sit there, think about your shot and all your mechanics, and your mind just eats you up. The stories that have come out this off-season might be written off as hack jobs and hit pieces - but what if they're true? What if he really was searching for some excuse in the form of a masseuse with COVID in order to not play Game 7?

As for 'all of a sudden', this is a thing that professional athletes have a lot of problems with - coming out and speaking about mental health. It's worse the more 'masculine' the sport is, and there's a racial component on top of that. It's no surprise to me that many athletes, including Simmons, would try to avoid the subject and avoid finding help.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,552
Nice post. Nothing Ben Simmons has done over the past 6 months (and beforehand) suggest someone who is emotionally well. Of, course if that is the case he needs to do the work and neither his advisors nor the 76ers have done him any favors.
This and @Rustjive too.

Most people in this thread appear to have accepted that mental issues played some role in Simmons shooting anxiety. Given that his problems contributed to the team's exit from the playoffs last year and appears to have affected his personal relationships there, he wants to leave rather than address things.

How are people not seeing a pattern here?
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Yes, that's part of what people are saying. But you know it's much more than that specifically in Philadelphia, right? This has also been discussed ad nauseam. Do you think it's an organization which has demonstrated is willing to help him through these challenges in recent months? Losing your management and teammates to the point where they are publicly blaming you would be the final straw for many.
There’s a fundamental distinction between saying “my job is bad for my mental health” and “I can’t do my job because of depression/anxiety/bipolar/etc.”

The latter should be treated the same as any other disease — if you need a leave of absence, say, to get your depression under control, that should be no different than needing a leave to go through cancer treatment. Expecting paid leave because your work environment is toxic or your boss is triggering is different.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,730
Saint Paul, MN
I don’t think anyone is claiming that you can’t have mental health issues as a rich and famous person, far from it. But the fact he is all of a sudden coming public with this at a time when it results in 34 million dollars and the ability for him to not face the wrath of the Philly fan base is a legitimate reason for skepticism. To brush of that he is acting purely in self interest here is naive in its own right, and frankly, ignores his history of behavior.
I don't know. If things are going great, it is a lot easier to brush aside your mental health and keep on keeping on. When shit goes south is the exact time when most mental illnesses show their ugly head.
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,946
Los Angeles, CA
There’s a fundamental distinction between saying “my job is bad for my mental health” and “I can’t do my job because of depression/anxiety/bipolar/etc.”

The latter should be treated the same as any other disease — if you need a leave of absence, say, to get your depression under control, that should be no different than needing a leave to go through cancer treatment. Expecting paid leave because your work environment is toxic or your boss is triggering is different.
Sure. And what if you can’t perform your job because of mental health and your job is a root cause? You should probably change the latter, right?
 

EvilEmpire

paying for his sins
Moderator
SoSH Member
Apr 9, 2007
17,270
Washington
Sure. And what if you can’t perform your job because of mental health and your job is a root cause? You should probably change the latter, right?
Leaving the NBA is always an option for him, but I think he is better off seeking treatment and trying to get back on the court. He seems open to doing that, so hopefully it works out.
 

Swedgin

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2013
702
There is a distinction between having a "mental disability" and "not feel[ing] like himself mentally right now to play in Philadelphia and need[ing] time," and that distinction makes a difference to the tune of 34 million dollars.

The CBA treats a mental disability that prevents a player from playing the same as a physical disability - as it should. For Simmons to show that he has a mental disability that prevents him from fulfilling his obligations under the contract, "not feeling like yourself" is not going to cut it. Nor will experiencing stress and anxiety associated with the prospect of going through an awkward or uncomfortable experience (i.e. facing teammates or a home crowd after you publicly demanded a trade and then tried to hold out to force said trade).
If Simmons' goal is to continue to be paid and avoid joining the team, he's going to have some challenges.
First, while the CBA puts mental and physical disabilities on the same footing, arbitrators and judges are much more skeptical of mental disabilities given the subjective nature of such complaints (soft tissue injuries are just a step above). Second, you have the prior inconsistent statements regarding the reason for his hold out. Granted those would not actually be in evidence because none of them were said by Simmons directly, but its naïve to think those leaks and "reports" are not going to have some impact on your fact finder. Third, just like with a physical disability Simmons will need medical confirmation of the disability. What's the diagnosis? How long has be treating? How often does he see his provider? What meds have been prescribed? How many times has the dosage or med been adjusted?

If Simmons has been in treatment for some time and has good answers to those questions, he can prevail. If not, it will be an uphill battle. I am somewhat skeptical that he has those ducks in a row, because if he did, that's the card Klutch should have played first: Klutch advises the Sixers in writing that Simmons is claiming a mental disability; Klutch cites to the relevant provision in the CBA and if the Sixers fail to pay him, Klutch grieves it.

However, that's not what Klutch did. They demanded a trade, at first in private and then in public. Then Klutch made it clear Simmons would not report or never play a game for the Sixers again. Based on the reporting, it appears that Klutch under took strategy under the (mistaken) belief that because of the payment structure in Simmons' contract, he would not be negatively impacted by any fines until November at the earliest. The problem with that assumption is that it ignores the concept of an "anticipatory breach" which you learn as 1L. With the installment payment being stuck in escrow and (unrecoverable - per the Union) penalties being deducted from it with every missed game and practice, Klutch reversed course and had him report. Then he gets tossed from practice and suspended a game (costing him more money), and now we have this new strategy.

If I were crediting Klutch, with playing chess instead of checkers, maybe they don't plan to rely on the disability language in the CBA. Maybe invoking his mental health now is not an effort to have him stay home and still get paid, but rather is Klutch setting up an affirmative defense of sorts. Maybe Simmons will eventually report, practice and play. However, he will be sluggish, disengaged, etc. If the Sixers try to push back with fines, suspensions, Simmons has an answer at the ready: "I told you I was not at 100% mentally, this is the best I can do." That would put Morey in a box.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,476
This thread turning sideways is exactly what Simmons and his management team was intending. Arguing about what the word "is" is.

Bravo.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,645
I really don't think Klutch plans to try to claim he's incapable of playing.

I think it's probably pretty simple. He had a tough year, even before the playoffs, that made it worse, he decided the best thing for him was to move on, and Klutch told the team he wanted to be moved. Simmons probably wasn't real interested in sharing his mental health with the world (most people aren't, athletes in macho guy sports more than most). Morey wasn't that interested in doing them a favor and it has spiraled as each side tried to get what they wanted.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,552
This thread turning sideways is exactly what Simmons and his management team was intending. Arguing about what the word "is" is.

Bravo.
Just so we are clear:

Are you saying that if someone thinks Simmons entire professional body of work, including his relationship with key members of his organization show signs that he is suffering from some sort of mental issues, they are easily taken in? Or do I miss your point?
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,306
Santa Monica

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,476
Just so we are clear:

Are you saying that if someone thinks Simmons entire professional body of work, including his relationship with key members of his organization show signs that he is suffering from some sort of mental issues, they are easily taken in? Or do I miss your point?
Let me answer your question with a question:

Regardless if that is all true, is the timing of this announcement not amazingly coincidental as well as advantageous for Simmons?

I tend not to believe in coincidences.

Another question: If Simmons were traded right now, do you think he'd still opt to sit out an indefinite amount of games for his new team, or do you think he would suit up ASAP? What do you think his agent is giving as an answer to the teams he speaks with?

Watching how someone plays basketball and interacts with others in public - a #1 draft pick, no less - and trying to piecemeal together a mental health analysis feels like armchair analysis at its finest. In fact, in the NBA circle of Hardens, Irving's, Dwight Howard's, and Kawhi's, Simmons situation doesnt feel all that abnormal at all.

Retroactively looking back at Simmons sports/public history to cherry pick situations that fit a narrative is just that - cherry picking data to fit a narrative. Go through anyone's life, and you'll find reasons that a person could be considered unstable. Double so for public figures.

All of that is beside the point I was making, though. Here is my point: the wording is important. Simmons didnt cite mental health. The phrasing was that he, "was not mentally ready to rejoin the team." Its really slick in its construction. It could mean just about anything that the person hearing it wants to believe, and leaves a ton of wiggle room for he and his team to navigate depending on who they're speaking with.

Philly? "Sorry, mental health. DNP."

A different team? "Not ready to play with PHILLY. Too much drama. I'm ready to play tonight for you!"

Media? "We made our statement. Wed like privacy now."

The wording is incredibly slick, and that's what my point was. The differing views here is pretty much the desired public outcome from the Simmons' team.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,552
Let me answer your question with a question:

Regardless if that is all true, is the timing of this announcement not amazingly coincidental as well as advantageous for Simmons?

I tend not to believe in coincidences.

Another question: If Simmons were traded right now, do you think he'd still opt to sit out an indefinite amount of games for his new team, or do you think he would suit up ASAP? What do you think his agent is giving as an answer to the teams he speaks with?

Watching how someone plays basketball and interacts with others in public - a #1 draft pick, no less - and trying to piecemeal together a mental health analysis feels like armchair analysis at its finest. In fact, in the NBA circle of Hardens, Irving's, Dwight Howard's, and Kawhi's, Simmons situation doesnt feel all that abnormal at all.

Retroactively looking back at Simmons sports/public history to cherry pick situations that fit a narrative is just that - cherry picking data to fit a narrative. Go through anyone's life, and you'll find reasons that a person could be considered unstable. Double so for public figures.

All of that is beside the point I was making, though. Here is my point: the wording is important. Simmons didnt cite mental health. The phrasing was that he, "was not mentally ready to rejoin the team." Its really slick in its construction. It could mean just about anything that the person hearing it wants to believe, and leaves a ton of wiggle room for he and his team to navigate depending on who they're speaking with.

Philly? "Sorry, mental health. DNP."

A different team? "Not ready to play with PHILLY. Too much drama. I'm ready to play tonight for you!"

Media? "We made our statement. Wed like privacy now."

The wording is incredibly slick, and that's what my point was. The differing views here is pretty much the desired public outcome from the Simmons' team.
It certainly appears as if Klutch is using every lever at its disposal to advocate for its client. To me, that is the least surprising aspect of this entire story. I also don't doubt that Simmons will show up to play for a new team is he is dealt.

To me, this all comes down to how a person sees Simmons.

To some, he is a contract shirking malcontent who never dealt with his issues and is now using his diminished clout to attempt to force his team into what almost certainly will be a suboptimal transaction. In short, he is just a bad actor.

For others, some of those things can be true (I assume he has tried to address his shooting issues but wasn't successful - others seem to think he didn't try enough which seems impossible to know) but the root cause of this situation in its entirety is likely something mental.

In short, I don't differentiate between Simmons responses to his shooting woes or how he has dealt with the 76ers. Its all part of his condition. Others do and that is fine.

In my experience, people who show a pattern of terrible decision making followed by going to extreme measures to avoid the consequences aren't being devious. Its all the same thing.
 

Swedgin

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2013
702
(I assume he has tried to address his shooting issues but wasn't successful - others seem to think he didn't try enough which seems impossible to know)
There has been some reporting on the shooting. Shelburne's piece had the following. I have not seen a specific rebuttal from Simmons camp (not saying its not out there - just have not come across it)

The Sixers had given Simmons all of these resources. He had worked with renowned shooting coach John Townsend.. . They had hired Damian Lillard's shooting coach, Phil Beckner, to work with him this season. They had a leading sports psychologist available to consult.

Initially, sources said, Simmons was receptive to specialists like Townsend. While he didn't turn Simmons into a marksman, he at least got Simmons to shoot, and keep shooting no matter how many he made.

In his rookie season, Simmons took 230 shots of 10 feet or farther from the basket. He also got better with his free throw shooting that 2017-18 season under Townsend, improving to 70.7% in the playoffs after hitting just 56% in the regular season. It was something to build on, people within the team believed. The organization wanted Simmons to continue on with Townsend in the offseason and into the following season. Instead, Simmons decided to work with his brother Liam Tribe. According to sources close to the situation, the Sixers were disappointed in the choice, and that they were given scant explanation.
There was also this quote from someone associated with Simmons
There is frustration on Simmons' side, too. Even his strongest supporters can't always defend him.
"When you go rafting and you fall out, there ain't no lifeguards," one source close to Simmons says. "You've got to be a willing participant in your own survival. Right?"
Says another, "If you fall out of the raft you've got to swim. You have to participate in your own rescue. ... I think that's very true to this."
I have no idea what's up with the multiple raft analogies. Is that an Australian thing?
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,645
Let me answer your question with a question:

Regardless if that is all true, is the timing of this announcement not amazingly coincidental as well as advantageous for Simmons?
Is it coincidental? Or is it that you have no reason to share your mental readiness until you have to perform. It's not like this is the first time he (or others) have talked about it, it got talked about right after the season in his quote about having to clear his head and get his mental health right, teammates and international coaches talking about him needing time off after a difficult season on and off the court etc. After that... why would he need to talk about it until the time came where he either had to play, or explain to his teammates why he wasn't?
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,476
Is it coincidental? Or is it that you have no reason to share your mental readiness until you have to perform. It's not like this is the first time he (or others) have talked about it, it got talked about right after the season in his quote about having to clear his head and get his mental health right, teammates and international coaches talking about him needing time off after a difficult season on and off the court etc. After that... why would he need to talk about it until the time came where he either had to play, or explain to his teammates why he wasn't?
What about my second question? I think it goes hand in hand with the first.

I also think people are hesitant to answer, because they know what the outcome will be if/when hes traded.

If his mental health is an issue now, it's an issue when hes traded. The coincidence that would be involved for him to have mental health concerns prior to his first game with Philly, but have them alleviated enough to play immediately after being traded is...well, more than enough to question his motive.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.