Ben Simmons wants out of Philadelphia

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brendan f

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Agree that Hield seems like a weak return but if the idea is to surround Embiid with shooters (which it should be), he's a good fit. Also agree the most likely scenario is that Simmons sits while Morey/Paul play hardball. My main point is that "fair value" is not going to occur if a trade does go forward. How long is Ben willing to sit? That seems to me the big question and there is no answer in sight as far as I can tell.
 

Jimbodandy

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Agree that Hield seems like a weak return but if the idea is to surround Embiid with shooters (which it should be), he's a good fit. Also agree the most likely scenario is that Simmons sits while Morey/Paul play hardball. My main point is that "fair value" is not going to occur if a trade does go forward. How long is Ben willing to sit? That seems to me the big question and there is no answer in sight as far as I can tell.
You are likely correct that Morey eventually trades Simmons for less than he's worth, because of the distraction factor and how clearly a change is needed. But I don't think that anyone wants Hield at what he makes, and Bagley doesn't make that any better. Tough to sell any of that to fans.
 

PedroKsBambino

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So, if you’re Sacto do you believe a Fox/Halliburton/Hield core gets you somewhere? They shouldn’t. What would you add to that in draft or FA to matter? To me, even a good do of those guys puts you two players away

Fox/Simmons may not either but I like that more as a starting place. Maybe others don’t but to me you are closer of you get just the right guy and it clicks. Point being, if their goal is being a legit contender I don’t think they stand on Halliburton as untouchable. While possible they just want to win 44-50 gamesI suspect not
 

Euclis20

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So, if you’re Sacto do you believe a Fox/Halliburton/Hield core gets you somewhere? They shouldn’t. What would you add to that in draft or FA to matter? To me, even a good do of those guys puts you two players away

Fox/Simmons may not either but I like that more as a starting place. Maybe others don’t but to me you are closer of you get just the right guy and it clicks. Point being, if their goal is being a legit contender I don’t think they stand on Halliburton as untouchable. While possible they just want to win 44-50 gamesI suspect not
I think they'd be ecstatic with 44-50 wins. That'd be enough to at least get them a play-in spot, which would be a massive success for a team that's one year away from the longest playoff drought of all time (16 seasons).
 

Smokey Joe

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He had exactly 1 FG attempt total in the 4th quarter of the last 6 playoff games. Maybe instead of "shit the bed" we should be using terms like "disappeared into thin air." Passing up the dunk was emblematic of his complete and total vanishing act late in games when it mattered most. The reason it gets all the headlines is because it's just about the only time he had the ball for more than a second or two late in these games without immediately getting rid of it. It wasn't a bad read, he was afraid he'd get fouled and have to shoot free throws. Sometimes things are exactly as they seem.

*edit - Philly was up 2-1, and Atlanta won 3 of the last 4 by a total of 13 points. Here are Simmons stats in the 4th quarter of those 4 games (essentially the equivalent of one full game):

34 minutes
6 points (0 FG attempts)
4 rebounds
3 assists
1 block
1 steal

Beyond the stats, just watching him it was clear that he was terrified of being involved, at all, on offense.
Has anyone in the national media written about this? I have not been following this story except from afar and I am a little shocked about this part. I know that someone is going to take a chance on him, but this is the sort of thing that can force you out of the league.
 

Devizier

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Hield and Barnes might be an intriguing starting point for Simmons plus filler. It’s two dimes for a quarter, but Philly might take that for roster fit reasons.

Fox would certainly fit in Philly, but Sacramento might put added value on a guy that actually wants to live there (as people here claim).
 

Cesar Crespo

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TripleOT

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Simmons and Maxey for Buddy, Haliburton, and Mitchell. Sacramento gives up two young promising players on rookie deals but they get one back, and they get off two years of paying Buddy. I probably value Simmons higher than many. In a non pressure situation like Sacto, he will be a lot better off.
 

Euclis20

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Obviously Morey is still trying to drive up value but if the plan is "well fuck him" and some version of "well it worked for the Packers" I don't think this ends well for the Sixers.
Unless we knew exactly which deals he's turning down, it's hard to say. The Sixers were a title contender with Simmons. They're definitely not a title contender with him sitting at home. If they trade him and the players/pieces they acquire don't allow them to stay a title contender, then what's the rush? Agreed that him sitting at home is really bad for the Sixers, but not as bad as getting 75 cents on the dollar would be. It's a players league but a 4 year deal means a lot of leverage for the Sixers. Maybe Simmons is stubborn to the point where he'd derail his entire career, but the Sixers have the time to find out. I don't think there's any reason for trade him before the trading deadline at the earliest, unless they get a deal they really like.
 

Cellar-Door

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Lol, Ben knows he comes back the first losing streak, Doc and Embiid will be tripping over themselves for who can most quickly passive-agressively shift the blame to Simmons.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It almost feels as if Morey has offers in place but from teams that don't appeal to Simmons. The game of chicken starts with Simmons' camp nixing a deal and Morey & Co. volleying back with the public declaration that Simmons is expected at camp.

Or maybe Morey is just doing what some here predicted and is playing hardball. That may be the case but it really is in nobody's best interests for this to drag out for the next few weeks. The base case is that a trade gets done in the near future.
 

Swedgin

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Unless we knew exactly which deals he's turning down, it's hard to say. The Sixers were a title contender with Simmons. They're definitely not a title contender with him sitting at home. If they trade him and the players/pieces they acquire don't allow them to stay a title contender, then what's the rush? Agreed that him sitting at home is really bad for the Sixers, but not as bad as getting 75 cents on the dollar would be. It's a players league but a 4 year deal means a lot of leverage for the Sixers. Maybe Simmons is stubborn to the point where he'd derail his entire career, but the Sixers have the time to find out. I don't think there's any reason for trade him before the trading deadline at the earliest, unless they get a deal they really like.
Assuming neither Beal or Dame demand a trade in the near term, Morey would take 75 cents in a cocaine heartbeat. His issue is that the offers he's getting at present (at least according to what's been reported/rumored) amount to a few dimes, an old cough drop and some pocket lint.
 

Cellar-Door

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It almost feels as if Morey has offers in place but from teams that don't appeal to Simmons. The game of chicken starts with Simmons' camp nixing a deal and Morey & Co. volleying back with the public declaration that Simmons is expected at camp.

Or maybe Morey is just doing what some here predicted and is playing hardball. That may be the case but it really is in nobody's best interests for this to drag out for the next few weeks. The base case is that a trade gets done in the near future.
If Simmons nixed a deal Morey would leak it for sure. This very much reads like Simmons legit wants anywhere but PHI and nobody will pony up. Simmons' camp says he won't show to put pressure on Morey to get a deal done, Morey declares he expects Simmons back in a desperate attempt to claw back some leverage
 

Gash Prex

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Under no circumstances is Ben Simmons setting foot back in that arena wearing a sixers uniform. This is not the usual "I am demanding a trade." Ben has set fire to any goodwill with the fans and teammates even if he could be convinced to show up - it would be a disaster of epic proportions.

Morey needs to cut a deal and move forward with the team otherwise he risks tanking this season and next - something you cannot afford to do with Embiids health.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If Simmons nixed a deal Morey would leak it for sure. This very much reads like Simmons legit wants anywhere but PHI and nobody will pony up. Simmons' camp says he won't show to put pressure on Morey to get a deal done, Morey declares he expects Simmons back in a desperate attempt to claw back some leverage
I don't see Morey as incentivized to leak anything about any potential deals. It may help in the PR wars but I am guessing prospective counterparties may not be happy with their offers being used primarily for leverage. Of course this is all just conjecture...
 

Cellar-Door

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I don't see Morey as incentivized to leak anything about any potential deals. It may help in the PR wars but I am guessing prospective counterparties may not be happy with their offers being used primarily for leverage. Of course this is all just conjecture...
he might not leak all the details, but my read on NBA trades is that if Simmons really was only willing to go to certain teams and killed the negotiations with a team it would get out, whether Morey or the other team.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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he might not leak all the details, but my read on NBA trades is that if Simmons really was only willing to go to certain teams and killed the negotiations with a team it would get out, whether Morey or the other team.
We are way through the looking glass here with regards to speculation but just looking at incentives here, nobody has any reason to leak something until a deal is dead. My WAG was that there are "live" offers on the table but from destinations that don't interest Simmons. But again, we have no real information other than the very targeted statements from the parties.
 

PedroKsBambino

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he might not leak all the details, but my read on NBA trades is that if Simmons really was only willing to go to certain teams and killed the negotiations with a team it would get out, whether Morey or the other team.
I agree. In that scenario he'd leak it (and happily so) in order to pressure Simmons.
 

Cellar-Door

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I agree. In that scenario he'd leak it (and happily so) in order to pressure Simmons.
Yeah I think at the very least if no details he'd leak that Simmons has a list, because Lowe and a few others have been saying Simmons will go anywhere, which must be coming from Ben's camp to make him look reasonable... basically "I'm not forcing my way to one team like Harden, I just want out of this toxic situation where I'm not appreciated so I can go anywhere that the team believes in me", if he were restricting it, just that he restricted it would be a benefit for Morey in the publicity battle, and not hurt in private negotiatons, because if Simmons had a list where he won't go, Rich Paul would quickly let those teams know.
 

Gash Prex

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My 14 y/o basketball-loving daughter sent me this yesterday -- it doesn't embed so it's Shaq and Charles talking about Simmons:

https://www.tiktok.com/@nbaontnt/video/7007822589062106373?sender_device=pc&sender_web_id=7012693235924010501&is_from_webapp=v1&is_copy_url=0
thanks for the link - and I’ll be honest if my daughter is sending me videos of chuck and Shaq in 8 years (she is currently 6) I’ll feel as though I succeeded as a parent so congrats !
 

Gash Prex

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And we are supposed to believe Ben could come back to the team? Even if it’s a joke, I don’t think Ben would take that in a good way
 

djbayko

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Under no circumstances is Ben Simmons setting foot back in that arena wearing a sixers uniform. This is not the usual "I am demanding a trade." Ben has set fire to any goodwill with the fans and teammates even if he could be convinced to show up - it would be a disaster of epic proportions.

Morey needs to cut a deal and move forward with the team otherwise he risks tanking this season and next - something you cannot afford to do with Embiids health.
Nor only that but both Doc and Embiid were talking like they wanted him gone at the end of last season. The only reason they’re talking nice now is because he’s still on the roster. This relationship is broken all around.
 
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GB5

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I think it bothers me that Ben gets to hold the cards here, but I guess that is the NBA now. Him deciding to hold out, and him deciding which teams he will accept a trade to just rubs me the wrong way. He had to come off the floor for the last 5 minutes of playoff games because he was such an enormous liability on the offensive end. He was being intentionally fouled, and was a basket case at the free throw line. He is an exceptional player with his inability to shoot dogging him since the day he entered the NBA. He has done nothing, not one thing to improve on his weakness. The kid has every other tool to be a legendary player. That team had a chance to make the finals last year, and Phoenix wasnt a great representative out of the West. They certainly were not the favorites, but a few bounces and they could have found their way into the finals. His lack of ability to shoot, submarined that team last year. I dont care who said what after the season. He should be there with a semi reliable 15 footer and with hat in hand at camp.
 

mauf

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How long do the Sixers have to wait before moving to terminate Simmons’s contract? I couldn’t find the info on Google, presumably because it almost never gets to that point. I seem to recall the team sending a “10-day notice” to the player, who has to report for duty during that period or have his contract terminated.

If the Sixers can get a player like De’Aaron Fox or Buddy Hield from Sacramento for Simmons, that’s obviously the right path, but if his contract has negative value, playing hardball is an option. I don’t think free-agent stars will steer clear of Philly because management insisted that Simmons honor his contract.
 

nighthob

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Massive thread title change fail here. The judges were looking for It's Always Funny in Philadelphia.
 

Jimbodandy

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How long do the Sixers have to wait before moving to terminate Simmons’s contract? I couldn’t find the info on Google, presumably because it almost never gets to that point. I seem to recall the team sending a “10-day notice” to the player, who has to report for duty during that period or have his contract terminated.

If the Sixers can get a player like De’Aaron Fox or Buddy Hield from Sacramento for Simmons, that’s obviously the right path, but if his contract has negative value, playing hardball is an option. I don’t think free-agent stars will steer clear of Philly because management insisted that Simmons honor his contract.
Pretty sure that Silver will put his thumb on the scale and make a deal happen before he allows that. People are painting him as weak around here lately, but he holds the reins. Contract termination, even if allowed under the CBA, would be a nuclear option game changer. Simmons sitting out without pay, while also undesirable, wouldn't.
 

Cellar-Door

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How long do the Sixers have to wait before moving to terminate Simmons’s contract? I couldn’t find the info on Google, presumably because it almost never gets to that point. I seem to recall the team sending a “10-day notice” to the player, who has to report for duty during that period or have his contract terminated.

If the Sixers can get a player like De’Aaron Fox or Buddy Hield from Sacramento for Simmons, that’s obviously the right path, but if his contract has negative value, playing hardball is an option. I don’t think free-agent stars will steer clear of Philly because management insisted that Simmons honor his contract.
I have no idea where you are getting this '10-day notice" from, it doesn't exist. The team can't terminate a contract, they could try to void it, but I don't get why they would. Ben would be thrilled. He'd sign a 1 year deal wherever he wants then go into next year one of if not the best free agent and likely get a max deal.
 

mauf

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Pretty sure that Silver will put his thumb on the scale and make a deal happen before he allows that. People are painting him as weak around here lately, but he holds the reins. Contract termination, even if allowed under the CBA, would be a nuclear option game changer. Simmons sitting out without pay, while also undesirable, wouldn't.
I think you overestimate the degree of player sympathy for Ben Simmons.

The CBA ensures that superstars earn less than their market value, with the difference going to other players (because total player salaries are fixed as a percentage of revenues). Keeping superstars happy is therefore in the interest of owners and players alike. Neither group has a similar interest in the happiness of players who are paid like stars but aren’t — they don’t drive league revenue, and their excessive pay comes out of other players’ pockets.

For sure, the NBPA has demonstrated they will go to the mat to defend the sanctity of guaranteed contracts, but that has always been in the context of a player who was willing and able to play. Defending Latrell Sprewell’s right to get paid after choking his coach is different from defending Ben Simmons’s right to sit on his ass.
 

benhogan

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How long do the Sixers have to wait before moving to terminate Simmons’s contract? I couldn’t find the info on Google, presumably because it almost never gets to that point. I seem to recall the team sending a “10-day notice” to the player, who has to report for duty during that period or have his contract terminated.

If the Sixers can get a player like De’Aaron Fox or Buddy Hield from Sacramento for Simmons, that’s obviously the right path, but if his contract has negative value, playing hardball is an option. I don’t think free-agent stars will steer clear of Philly because management insisted that Simmons honor his contract.
Sam Presti has Rich Paul's number and would gladly write a max deal for Ben's bad FT shooting.

Morey is trying to get the most he can for Ben and could easily wait until the trade deadline to do so. At worse he could take numerous picks, youngsters and a large TPE from OKC
 

Jimbodandy

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I think you overestimate the degree of player sympathy for Ben Simmons.

The CBA ensures that superstars earn less than their market value, with the difference going to other players (because total player salaries are fixed as a percentage of revenues). Keeping superstars happy is therefore in the interest of owners and players alike. Neither group has a similar interest in the happiness of players who are paid like stars but aren’t — they don’t drive league revenue, and their excessive pay comes out of other players’ pockets.

For sure, the NBPA has demonstrated they will go to the mat to defend the sanctity of guaranteed contracts, but that has always been in the context of a player who was willing and able to play. Defending Latrell Sprewell’s right to get paid after choking his coach is different from defending Ben Simmons’s right to sit on his ass.
My POV has nothing to do with Simmons. The union would be unhappy if teams start doing shit like that in general, leaving aside the fact that such a thing in this instance would be great for Ben and bad for Philly.
 

Cellar-Door

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My POV has nothing to do with Simmons. The union would be unhappy if teams start doing shit like that in general, leaving aside the fact that such a thing in this instance would be great for Ben and bad for Philly.
The Union might be upset, but maybe not. It's pretty established that as long as a guy is willing to show up you can't void his deal (see Spreewell and Vin Baker). Not sure the Union would be that worried if a guy basically told the team... "feel free to make me a FA" and they did.

Of course it doesn't matter, because voiding his deal is AWFUL for PHI because it does nothing but save tax money, and any package they got back, no matter how paltry is worth more to them than that if they plan to compete with Embiid.
 

Kliq

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My 14 y/o basketball-loving daughter sent me this yesterday -- it doesn't embed so it's Shaq and Charles talking about Simmons:

https://www.tiktok.com/@nbaontnt/video/7007822589062106373?sender_device=pc&sender_web_id=7012693235924010501&is_from_webapp=v1&is_copy_url=0
Great players for the most part want other players to be great. It's frustrating to see someone blessed with the gifts to join the elite club who don't seem to want to put in the effort to reach that pinnacle.
 

mauf

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Sam Presti has Rich Paul's number and would gladly write a max deal for Ben's bad FT shooting.

Morey is trying to get the most he can for Ben and could easily wait until the trade deadline to do so. At worse he could take numerous picks, youngsters and a large TPE from OKC
My opinion of Simmons’ value differs from yours. He was exposed in the playoffs. Also, he’s 25 years old and is basically the same player he was as a rookie. So there’s not much left in the way of projection — if you trade for Simmons, you’re not expecting more than the limited player he is now. I don’t think he would get 4/140 (what’s left on his contract) if he were a free agent this summer. In other words, he’s a negative asset.

And I say that as someone who was bullish on Simmons a year ago, to the point where I thought the Sixers should trade Embiid.
 

benhogan

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My opinion of Simmons’ value differs from yours. He was exposed in the playoffs. Also, he’s 25 years old and is basically the same player he was as a rookie. So there’s not much left in the way of projection — if you trade for Simmons, you’re not expecting more than the limited player he is now. I don’t think he would get 4/140 (what’s left on his contract) if he were a free agent this summer. In other words, he’s a negative asset.

And I say that as someone who was bullish on Simmons a year ago, to the point where I thought the Sixers should trade Embiid.
That's cool you can have that take (I don't agree) but there are 29 other teams (& 29 opinions). Someone will pay the freight.

I'd guess half the teams would agree with you and half would see a 3-time All-Star
 
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oumbi

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I think it bothers me that Ben gets to hold the cards here, but I guess that is the NBA now. Him deciding to hold out, and him deciding which teams he will accept a trade to just rubs me the wrong way. He had to come off the floor for the last 5 minutes of playoff games because he was such an enormous liability on the offensive end. He was being intentionally fouled, and was a basket case at the free throw line. He is an exceptional player with his inability to shoot dogging him since the day he entered the NBA. He has done nothing, not one thing to improve on his weakness. The kid has every other tool to be a legendary player. That team had a chance to make the finals last year, and Phoenix wasnt a great representative out of the West. They certainly were not the favorites, but a few bounces and they could have found their way into the finals. His lack of ability to shoot, submarined that team last year. I dont care who said what after the season. He should be there with a semi reliable 15 footer and with hat in hand at camp.
Are you also bothered when the owners held the cards and did it rub you the wrong way when owners would trade players to which teams they decided? These are real questions. Why does a player having control over his playing life bother you but having owners control players does not?
 

Smokey Joe

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Sam Presti has Rich Paul's number and would gladly write a max deal for Ben's bad FT shooting.

Morey is trying to get the most he can for Ben and could easily wait until the trade deadline to do so. At worse he could take numerous picks, youngsters and a large TPE from OKC
Ooh. Ooh. I want Morey to trade Simmons to the Thunder for every Rockets pick and pick swap they own.
 

Cesar Crespo

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My opinion of Simmons’ value differs from yours. He was exposed in the playoffs. Also, he’s 25 years old and is basically the same player he was as a rookie. So there’s not much left in the way of projection — if you trade for Simmons, you’re not expecting more than the limited player he is now. I don’t think he would get 4/140 (what’s left on his contract) if he were a free agent this summer. In other words, he’s a negative asset.

And I say that as someone who was bullish on Simmons a year ago, to the point where I thought the Sixers should trade Embiid.
You are the one undervaluing him. Not others. His contract is not a negative. You are way off even suggesting so. Makes me wonder just how often you watch the NBA for even suggesting it.

It's laughable to suggest Simmons isn't a max guy. Go say hi to MPJ.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Under no circumstances is Ben Simmons setting foot back in that arena wearing a sixers uniform. This is not the usual "I am demanding a trade." Ben has set fire to any goodwill with the fans and teammates even if he could be convinced to show up - it would be a disaster of epic proportions.

Morey needs to cut a deal and move forward with the team otherwise he risks tanking this season and next - something you cannot afford to do with Embiids health.
Morey has to know that Simmons is never returning to Philly and is prepared to sit out the entire season. This has to all be standard GM-speak, right?


My opinion of Simmons’ value differs from yours. He was exposed in the playoffs. Also, he’s 25 years old and is basically the same player he was as a rookie. So there’s not much left in the way of projection — if you trade for Simmons, you’re not expecting more than the limited player he is now. I don’t think he would get 4/140 (what’s left on his contract) if he were a free agent this summer. In other words, he’s a negative asset.

And I say that as someone who was bullish on Simmons a year ago, to the point where I thought the Sixers should trade Embiid.
The projection curve with Simmons is certainly very flat. I’m not sure what you mean by “limited” when discussing a 25-yr old consensus All-Star who has multiple elite skills. There isn’t a team in the league who wouldn’t take Simmons on that contract right now if they could snap their finger and do so.
 

Kliq

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I definitely think some teams would be hesitant to give Simmons the max, there are so many question marks with that dude both on the court and off the court.

If there were a lot of GMs who were as high on Simmons as some of the posters in this thread, Simmons would already be gone. I think the reason this situation is so stingy is that Philly is holding out for someone who believes in Simmons as a top player and frankly, there are not a lot of GMs willing to make that gamble.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I definitely think some teams would be hesitant to give Simmons the max, there are so many question marks with that dude both on the court and off the court.

If there were a lot of GMs who were as high on Simmons as some of the posters in this thread, Simmons would already be gone. I think the reason this situation is so stingy is that Philly is holding out for someone who believes in Simmons as a top player and frankly, there are not a lot of GMs willing to make that gamble.
Giving up assets is different than just giving up cap space. If Simmons was a FA this past summer, he gets the max.

If people think otherwise, I want some of what they are smoking. It's not even debatable.
 

Kliq

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Giving up assets is different than just giving up cap space. If Simmons was a FA this past summer, he gets the max.

If people think otherwise, I want some of what they are smoking. It's not even debatable.
Yes I understand the difference; I was just arguing that there are some GMs, not all who would likely be hesitant to give him the max.

Some people in this thread give off the impression that Simmons is just a normal, 3x All-Star and will surely bring in a great haul for Philly when the deal is made. I'm less optimistic about their prospects because I think there are executives in the league who would be in a position to give Philly a strong offer who are staying away.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yes I understand the difference; I was just arguing that there are some GMs, not all who would likely be hesitant to give him the max.

Some people in this thread give off the impression that Simmons is just a normal, 3x All-Star and will surely bring in a great haul for Philly when the deal is made. I'm less optimistic about their prospects because I think there are executives in the league who would be in a position to give Philly a strong offer who are staying away.
I think they move him and get 50 to 75 cents on the dollar. It's been the outcome on all these deals to date. I'd love for Philly to play hardball though. If they lose Simmons for basically nothing, that's a huge boon for the C's.

I guess it depends on what considers a great haul too.
 
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