Ben Simmons wants out of Philadelphia

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JM3

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I don't think I've seen any Ben Simmons to Atlanta fake trades yet.

How about...

Simmons ($33m) for...

BogBog ($18m)
Delon ($8.5m)
Hunter ($7.8m)
Unprotected '22 1st
'23 pick swap
'24 1st lottery protected

Trae & Ben should be a fun fit & Hawks have so much depth they should consolidate. Ben can't play with both Capela & Collins, but should be ok with 1 of them & surrounded by other shooters like Huerter/Gallo.

76ers get players with useful skills (Bog shot 43% from 3 last year) in their primes, Hunter who was quite good last year before getting hurt & still has some additional upside, & future picks they can use to strengthen their team now or in the future.
 

Sam Ray Not

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It’d be much more SRN-like to say, “no effing way am I giving up Jordan Poole in a trade for Ben Simmons.” :)

Wiggins straight up or no deal, says SRN. Philly gets the worse player, but that’s what happens with a massively distressed asset who is holding out to play for “one of the three [sic] California teams.” Wiggs is still young, probably the most durable player in the league, almost as versatile defensively as Simmons, as low-maintenance as Simmons is high-maintenance, and not afraid to shoot threes, jumpers, and free throws. Was last seen shooting 90% from the stripe in do-or-die games as Team Canada’s best player, while Simmons was putting up literally the worst FT% in NBA playoff history (37%) in do-or-die games for Philly.

Also: to the extent that JoJo has a say: he and Wiggs are close from their Kansas days.

Edit: Philly also gets off of two years and $75M in guaranteed money in the deal.

Throw in Moody and/or a future well-protected pick if you twist my arm. No Poole, no Kuminga, no Wiseman, no unprotected picks.

Alternatively, a three-way:

• Wiggs back home to Ontario
• Siakam joins his fellow Cameroonian Embiid in Philly
• Simmons to GS
 
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JM3

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Hornets?

Simmons ($33m)
Maxey ($2.6m)

For...

Rozier ($17.9m)
Oubre ($12m) - not until 12/14
Bouknight ($4.2m)
McDaniels ($1.8m)
'26 1st
'27 swap, top 3 protected (Can they go out this far? They're stuck cuz of protections on the 1st to the Knicks)

Meh, might have to get PJ or Miles Bridges into that deal.
 
How about...

Simmons ($33m) for...

BogBog ($18m)
Delon ($8.5m)
Hunter ($7.8m)
Unprotected '22 1st
'23 pick swap
'24 1st lottery protected
No thanks. As long as Hunter's injury issues aren't long-term debilitating - and if they are, the Sixers wouldn't want him anyway - he has LOADS of upside, and that's a lot of picks and two very good role players you have going to Philly with him. And I'm not convinced about the Trae/Simmons fit, and (as you mention) the Simmons/Capela/Collins fit. I could *maybe* envision a deal revolving around Simmons for Collins and Wright (or for Collins, Reddish and filler?), but Collins as a newly signed FA can't be traded for a while.

I do think the Hawks are prime candidates to make a consolidation trade at some point in the next 12 months. I don't think Simmons is the right target for such a trade.
 

benhogan

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Lol, those Warriors trades are complete dogshit. They would be better off just letting Simmons hold out than taking a return like that. The Haliburton, Hield and a pick deal make more sense to me, that seems like a reasonable return given the circumstances. Though, I'm sure for Sacramento they would rather keep Haliburton and send Fox out if they're trading for Simmons since Haliburton can actually shoot.
They are dogshit, but SRN does a good job selling Wiggins hard...I'd hate to run into him at a used car lot

If Sac could unload Bagley and Hield (even at the cost of Halliburton) while adding Simmons that would be a major coop
 

Cesar Crespo

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They are dogshit, but SRN does a good job selling Wiggins hard...I'd hate to run into him at a used car lot

If Sac could unload Bagley and Hield (even at the cost of Halliburton) while adding Simmons that would be a major coop
Hield yeah. Bagley is an expiring. He'd be easy to move on from.
 

JM3

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No thanks. As long as Hunter's injury issues aren't long-term debilitating - and if they are, the Sixers wouldn't want him anyway - he has LOADS of upside, and that's a lot of picks and two very good role players you have going to Philly with him. And I'm not convinced about the Trae/Simmons fit, and (as you mention) the Simmons/Capela/Collins fit. I could *maybe* envision a deal revolving around Simmons for Collins and Wright (or for Collins, Reddish and filler?), but Collins as a newly signed FA can't be traded for a while.

I do think the Hawks are prime candidates to make a consolidation trade at some point in the next 12 months. I don't think Simmons is the right target for such a trade.
That's all fair. I think a Trae/Ben P&R would be pretty fascinating & Ben would really help Trae hide on defense.

A big rotation of 32 minutes each for Ben/JC/CC seems kinda workable to me, especially the fit with JC. & a BS/CC pnr could be nice, too.

& I'm lower on Hunter's upside than you are. It's kinda crazy he only 3 months younger than Collins. If he improves his 3s, which is possible based on college 3s & his free throw %, he'll definitely be a very workable 3&D guy for years to come.

I wonder Embiid/JC/Tobias. Hmm. Maybe.
 

HomeRunBaker

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it would be very surprising if Sac traded Haliburton on his rookie deal. They hold his rights through the 24/25 season. Fox is likely seen by the organization as their franchise player and they just locked him up to a new contract. I'm just not seeing it with Sac unless it's something like Simmons for Hield and Bagley plus a pick.
Yeah I don’t think there is a chance in hell that Sacramento would move all those cost-controlled years of a kid who showed so much promise as a rookie. If anyone is going to be moved for value it will be Fox if nobody will take Hield off their hands.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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That's all fair. I think a Trae/Ben P&R would be pretty fascinating & Ben would really help Trae hide on defense.

A big rotation of 32 minutes each for Ben/JC/CC seems kinda workable to me, especially the fit with JC. & a BS/CC pnr could be nice, too.

& I'm lower on Hunter's upside than you are. It's kinda crazy he only 3 months younger than Collins. If he improves his 3s, which is possible based on college 3s & his free throw %, he'll definitely be a very workable 3&D guy for years to come.

I wonder Embiid/JC/Tobias. Hmm. Maybe.
I would not be surprised to see Schlenk kick the tires here. Your take on Simmons fit with Young and the Hawks is pretty compelling. From Philly's standpoint, I think they just need productive NBA bodies as a pure talent match seems unlikely. The package upthread seems reasonable talent/asset wise. Any deal will come down to how Morey wants to run his fire sale but a team like Atlanta with a roster of good rotation players would be a obvious potential fit.
 

HomeRunBaker

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That's all fair. I think a Trae/Ben P&R would be pretty fascinating & Ben would really help Trae hide on defense.

A big rotation of 32 minutes each for Ben/JC/CC seems kinda workable to me, especially the fit with JC. & a BS/CC pnr could be nice, too.

& I'm lower on Hunter's upside than you are. It's kinda crazy he only 3 months younger than Collins. If he improves his 3s, which is possible based on college 3s & his free throw %, he'll definitely be a very workable 3&D guy for years to come.

I wonder Embiid/JC/Tobias. Hmm. Maybe.
There is a greater than zero chance that Hunter’s repeatedly injured right knee prevents him from ever becoming a reliable productive player. This is a huge year for him health-wise now that he’s had an entire offseason to rehab that knee.
 
There is a greater than zero chance that Hunter’s repeatedly injured right knee prevents him from ever becoming a reliable productive player. This is a huge year for him health-wise now that he’s had an entire offseason to rehab that knee.
Spot on. A trade in which Hunter and Simmons are the main pieces would be fascinating, with Morey betting on Hunter's knee and Schlenk betting on Simmons' fit (and willingness to work on the flaws in his game). Ultimately, I think the risks are such that both GMs would say no.
 
By the way, I think the other reason that I really don't want the Hawks to get Simmons is actually karma-related: Atlanta effectively ended Simmons' career in Philadelphia. He chose not to go strong to the hoop in Game 7 against the Hawks. You can't trade for THAT guy, can you? Consolidating assets to trade for THAT guy will probably end up like, I dunno, drafting Marvin Williams instead of Chris Paul. (Because this is Atlanta we're talking about, of course.)
 

johnmd20

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This Ben Simmons story is absolutely insane. He's got four years left on his deal. He famously flamed out in the playoffs, which I do not think is the 76ers fault.

And now he won't report to camp? This, I guess, is the natural conclusion of player empowerment. An overrated player who famously choked in the playoffs by not even trying with 4 years left on his deal is dictating terms.
 

Cellar-Door

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ATL is an interesting destination in part because they are facing a salary crunch down the line. Replacing 2-3 guys with Simmons makes some sense if you know you can't hold them long term.
 

Cellar-Door

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I do love the gamesmanship of it all. Ben's camp leaks yesterday that he won't report (not new news) to get it heated back up. PHI responds by making Doc go on ESPN w/ SAS and lie his ass off
 

tbb345

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This Ben Simmons story is absolutely insane. He's got four years left on his deal. He famously flamed out in the playoffs, which I do not think is the 76ers fault.

And now he won't report to camp? This, I guess, is the natural conclusion of player empowerment. An overrated player who famously choked in the playoffs by not even trying with 4 years left on his deal is dictating terms.
I somewhat agree with this but I think Morey also has to take a pretty big slice of the blame for letting it get to this point.

I mean, Simmons tenure with the Sixers was over after the Bucks series when both Rivers and Embiid laid the blame for the loss on Simmons feet.

To continue to ask for and only accept “Godfather offers” for the guy is absolutely insane. Not only do you have the drama off the court but everyone just watched him basically get the yips in an elimination game.

I can’t imagine the return is going to be much. I think McCollum and MAYBE another small asset is the absolute max and(if the reporting is accurate) that’s not even in the ballpark of what Moreys asking for.,
 

JM3

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On the BS podcast Simmons floated Simmons to the Clippers with a package for PG & Zach Lowe was shocked by the suggestion. He obviously needs to read more SOSH where we kick around all # of crazy ideas all the time.
 

Tony C

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Yeah I don’t think there is a chance in hell that Sacramento would move all those cost-controlled years of a kid who showed so much promise as a rookie. If anyone is going to be moved for value it will be Fox if nobody will take Hield off their hands.
This is the one trade that makes sense to me out of all the rumors. They say Sac is unwilling to move Fox, which is both believable and crazy. He's a real good player, but not that good and definitely not as impactful as Simmons. Bringing in Simmons makes the Kings interesting -- he's a good fit with the rest of their talent and god knows they need the defense (Mitchell should help with that, as should Haliburton having another year on him). And Fox is a good fit with the 76ers talent, and Hield would help there, too.

Kings management is somewhat clueless though they seem to be drafting well. And Morey is too clever for his own good. But that would be the sort of trade where both teams get better. Not sure I see that with the other rumors out there.
 

Cesar Crespo

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This is the one trade that makes sense to me out of all the rumors. They say Sac is unwilling to move Fox, which is both believable and crazy. He's a real good player, but not that good and definitely not as impactful as Simmons. Bringing in Simmons makes the Kings interesting -- he's a good fit with the rest of their talent and god knows they need the defense (Mitchell should help with that, as should Haliburton having another year on him). And Fox is a good fit with the 76ers talent, and Hield would help there, too.

Kings management is somewhat clueless though they seem to be drafting well. And Morey is too clever for his own good. But that would be the sort of trade where both teams get better. Not sure I see that with the other rumors out there.
Fox is supposed to absolutely love Sacramento. So there's probably some value in that.
 

nighthob

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This is the one trade that makes sense to me out of all the rumors. They say Sac is unwilling to move Fox, which is both believable and crazy. He's a real good player, but not that good and definitely not as impactful as Simmons. Bringing in Simmons makes the Kings interesting -- he's a good fit with the rest of their talent and god knows they need the defense (Mitchell should help with that, as should Haliburton having another year on him). And Fox is a good fit with the 76ers talent, and Hield would help there, too.

Kings management is somewhat clueless though they seem to be drafting well. And Morey is too clever for his own good. But that would be the sort of trade where both teams get better. Not sure I see that with the other rumors out there.
Mitchell tries hard, but he's smurfy. Not sure how much help he can provide. Sactown's problem is that their interior D is a full frontal honkey disaster zone. Even Simmons would struggle making All-D there.
 

Jimbodandy

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Mitchell tries hard, but he's smurfy. Not sure how much help he can provide. Sactown's problem is that their interior D is a full frontal honkey disaster zone. Even Simmons would struggle making All-D there.
You really should write for Hallmark. Elegant stuff.
 

radsoxfan

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To continue to ask for and only accept “Godfather offers” for the guy is absolutely insane. Not only do you have the drama off the court but everyone just watched him basically get the yips in an elimination game.
Even if you remove all of the off court drama and leverage from of the equation, I don't really think Simmons gets you a huge haul or any sort of "godfather offer" based on basketball alone at this point.

He's a max guy and probably worth his deal at the moment, but honestly not much more. 33-40M/season for a very limited player who has shown zero growth (perhaps some regression in 4 years). There is still superstar upside, but those chances are waning.

He's not a Kemba Walker/John Wall/Blake Griffin buyout guy or anything close to it of course, but at this point his value relative to his contract is simply not that high. He's more of a "shuffle the deck" type trade candidate for another good but not great high paid player(s) than someone who should get some huge return.

Add in the off the court stuff and limited leverage from Philly, I have no idea why they would think a big offer is coming.
 

JM3

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This is the one trade that makes sense to me out of all the rumors. They say Sac is unwilling to move Fox, which is both believable and crazy. He's a real good player, but not that good and definitely not as impactful as Simmons. Bringing in Simmons makes the Kings interesting -- he's a good fit with the rest of their talent and god knows they need the defense (Mitchell should help with that, as should Haliburton having another year on him). And Fox is a good fit with the 76ers talent, and Hield would help there, too.

Kings management is somewhat clueless though they seem to be drafting well. And Morey is too clever for his own good. But that would be the sort of trade where both teams get better. Not sure I see that with the other rumors out there.
New(ish) Kings GM Monte McNair worked with Morey in Houston for like 13 years. He may or may not be competent, but they're certainly familiar with each other's mindsets.
 

benhogan

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New(ish) Kings GM Monte McNair worked with Morey in Houston for like 13 years. He may or may not be competent, but they're certainly familiar with each other's mindsets.
Out of all the hair-brained fake trades (many of them mine), I believe Sacramento as a destination makes the most sense. The Kings have no chance to sign a Simmons-type talent in FA. They desperately need defensive help. BS would fit as a Point PF. Morey/McNair familiarity.

It will take Fox+ or Haliburton/Hield or Barnes+ but they have the actual pieces to make it happen (and could include a 3rd banana to balance picks/$$$ out)
 

Sam Ray Not

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Proposed four-way deal, in light of the sad news that Wiggins is an anti-vaxx zealot.

GSW gets: Harrison Barnes and Richaun Holmes
SAC gets: Ben Simmons
PHI gets: Pascal Siakam
TOR gets: Ontario’s own Wiggins and lotsa picks

Warriors playoff closing lineup: Curry, Thompson, Iguodala, Barnes, Green. Hmm. (Or less nostalgically: replace Old Man Andre with Porter Jr. or Poole or even Kuminga).

Of course this four-way trade will occur exactly as I’m suggesting. :)
 
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Kliq

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De'Aaron Fox is better than Ben Simmons. Sacramento doesn't need "an identity" they need better players, coaching and talent development. Trading away by far your best player for a worse player isn't going to help them at all.

Simmons is a far better defensive player than Fox, but Fox is a much better offensive player than Simmons and unlike Simmons, has shown a continued ability to get better season-to-season. He also doesn't come with any of the baggage that Simmons does.

I get that it's a complicated situation, but I think people are really overrating how good of a player Ben Simmons is at the moment. Yes, incredible, elite defender and a very good player in transition. But on offense his playmaking his neutered by teams understanding they never have to guard him outside of the restricted area and he is also afraid of being fouled, so you don't even have to guard him all that closely inside the restricted area anyway. He does bring some great stuff to the table, but he also really handicaps a lot of what teams can do offensively and who they can put on the floor.

He's also just psychologically broken and there a ton of question marks about his commitment to get better and his competitiveness. Getting rid of your young, talented star who wants to play in Sacramento for a damaged, moody enigma is unfortunately a move typical of Sacramento, but I would certainly not trade Fox for Simmons.
 

Sam Ray Not

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De'Aaron Fox is better than Ben Simmons. Sacramento doesn't need "an identity" they need better players, coaching and talent development. Trading away by far your best player for a worse player isn't going to help them at all.

Simmons is a far better defensive player than Fox, but Fox is a much better offensive player than Simmons and unlike Simmons, has shown a continued ability to get better season-to-season. He also doesn't come with any of the baggage that Simmons does.

I get that it's a complicated situation, but I think people are really overrating how good of a player Ben Simmons is at the moment. Yes, incredible, elite defender and a very good player in transition. But on offense his playmaking his neutered by teams understanding they never have to guard him outside of the restricted area and he is also afraid of being fouled, so you don't even have to guard him all that closely inside the restricted area anyway. He does bring some great stuff to the table, but he also really handicaps a lot of what teams can do offensively and who they can put on the floor.

He's also just psychologically broken and there a ton of question marks about his commitment to get better and his competitiveness. Getting rid of your young, talented star who wants to play in Sacramento for a damaged, moody enigma is unfortunately a move typical of Sacramento, but I would certainly not trade Fox for Simmons.
In my (admittedly absurdist) proposed deal, Simmons wouldn’t preclude Fox. They could run out something like: Fox-Hield-Haliburton-Simmons-Bagley, with the Fox/Simmons minutes mostly staggered thereafter.

Edit: not sure what happens with Davion Mitchell, who seems like one ballhandler too many. Maybe he goes to Toronto in the deal?
 

benhogan

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De'Aaron Fox is better than Ben Simmons. Sacramento doesn't need "an identity" they need better players, coaching and talent development. Trading away by far your best player for a worse player isn't going to help them at all.

Simmons is a far better defensive player than Fox, but Fox is a much better offensive player than Simmons and unlike Simmons, has shown a continued ability to get better season-to-season. He also doesn't come with any of the baggage that Simmons does.

I get that it's a complicated situation, but I think people are really overrating how good of a player Ben Simmons is at the moment. Yes, incredible, elite defender and a very good player in transition. But on offense his playmaking his neutered by teams understanding they never have to guard him outside of the restricted area and he is also afraid of being fouled, so you don't even have to guard him all that closely inside the restricted area anyway. He does bring some great stuff to the table, but he also really handicaps a lot of what teams can do offensively and who they can put on the floor.

He's also just psychologically broken and there a ton of question marks about his commitment to get better and his competitiveness. Getting rid of your young, talented star who wants to play in Sacramento for a damaged, moody enigma is unfortunately a move typical of Sacramento, but I would certainly not trade Fox for Simmons.
We'll need more evidence than Ben's rough series against Atlanta to say "Fox is better Ben Simmons". I doubt he is as "psychologically broken" as being portrayed. The Philly situation is just a bad fit. Doc and the team leader, Embiid, don't believe in him. Ben's smart to just move on.

Every advanced metric, over every single season, has Ben better than Fox in BPM, WS, VORP, PIPM, On/Off, +/-, DRtg even Ben's ORtg is superior each and every season

Crapping on Ben Simmons seems overdone, the guy isn't a 3 time All-Star for no reason. De'Aaron Fox has never sniffed the playoffs and is a Marcus Smart level 3pt shooter. Fox scores more POINTZ than Ben that's about it with worse eFG% (.56% vs .496%)

I'd actually deal Fox(& his contract) before dealing Haliburton, and sell his rep over his overall production.
 
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JM3

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Out of all the hair-brained fake trades (many of them mine), I believe Sacramento as a destination makes the most sense. The Kings have no chance to sign a Simmons-type talent in FA. They desperately need defensive help. BS would fit as a Point PF. Morey/McNair familiarity.

It will take Fox+ or Haliburton/Hield or Barnes+ but they have the actual pieces to make it happen (and could include a 3rd banana to balance picks/$$$ out)
While watching Jokic highlights this morning, I've decided that DENVER is actually the ideal destination.

Simmons fits great with Jokic & their shooters & would transform their defense.

Unfortunately, they can't trade a 1st round pick for the next 37 years, so can't quite figure out how to make a trade package around Aaron Gordon work unless MPJ is involved in some huge multi-team trade.
 

Cesar Crespo

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While watching Jokic highlights this morning, I've decided that DENVER is actually the ideal destination.

Simmons fits great with Jokic & their shooters & would transform their defense.

Unfortunately, they can't trade a 1st round pick for the next 37 years, so can't quite figure out how to make a trade package around Aaron Gordon work unless MPJ is involved in some huge multi-team trade.
Gordon can't be traded for quite awhile anyway.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah, Ben Simmons is really good. What he can't do is shoot 3s or FTs. And yes the latter is a problem in the playoffs, but at the same time, if you don't call him a PG, if I tell you I have a guy who is 6'11" 240lbs, who can play 1-5 on both ends, is an elite defender 1-4 (like top 3 in the league elite), puts up a 12.9 TRB%, 34.5 AST% you should be thrilled and play him as a forward or smallball C.

He's a better player than Fox, who sure shoots 71% from the line instead of 61% and 32% from 3 on moderate volume vs not shooting... but Simmons is as good a passer, better rebounder, better and far more versatile defender....

Part of Philly's problem is that beyond everyone knowing he wants out, everyone also knows that there may not be a team in the league that is a worse on-court fit for Simmons than PHI.
 

JM3

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Gordon can't be traded for quite awhile anyway.
I'm pretty sure he can at his current cap # ($16.4m) because he received an extension & wasn't a free agent. I could be totally off, though.

I think it is people like Barton, Jeff Green & Austin Rivers they can't trade until December.

I thought about a Gordon/Barton/Bones package but it doesn't seem like enough.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm pretty sure he can at his current cap # ($16.4m) because he received an extension & wasn't a free agent. I could be totally off, though.

I think it is people like Barton, Jeff Green & Austin Rivers they can't trade until December.

I thought about a Gordon/Barton/Bones package but it doesn't seem like enough.
Smart can't be traded. Isn't Gordon in the same boat?
 

benhogan

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Proposed four-way deal, in light of the sad news that Wiggins is an anti-vaxx zealot.

GSW gets: Harrison Barnes and Richaun Holmes
SAC gets: Ben Simmons
PHI gets: Pascal Siakam
TOR gets: Ontario’s own Wiggins and lotsa picks

Warriors playoff closing lineup: Curry, Thompson, Iguodala, Barnes, Green. Hmm. (Or less nostalgically: replace Old Man Andre with Porter Jr. or Poole or even Kuminga).

Of course this four-way trade will occur exactly as I’m suggesting. :)
Wiggins may not be able to play home games. California isn't playing around. I'd make it a coin toss that the local authorities give him a bogus religious out.

If Toronto could get Simmons for Siakam I don't think they pipe in the Northern California contingent (Holmes can't be dealt now).
 

Kliq

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We'll need more evidence than Ben's rough series against Atlanta to say "Fox is better Ben Simmons". I doubt he is as "psychologically broken" as being portrayed. The Philly situation is just a bad fit. Doc and the team leader, Embiid, don't believe in him. Ben's smart to just move on.

Every advanced metric, over every single season, has Ben better than Fox in BPM, WS, VORP, PIPM, On/Off, +/-, DRtg even Ben's ORtg is superior each and every season

Crapping on Ben Simmons seems overdone, the guy isn't a 3 time All-Star for no reason. De'Aaron Fox has never sniffed the playoffs and is a Marcus Smart level 3pt shooter. Fox scores more POINTZ than Ben that's about it with worse eFG% (.56% vs .496%)

I'd actually deal Fox(& his contract) before dealing Haliburton, and sell his rep over his overall production.
Dude, if you want to believe that the Atlanta series was an aberration and that Simmons is just a normal, 3x All-Star ready and able to be an All-NBA player, I don't know what to tell you. Just summarizing it as Philly being a bad fit and that Rivers and Embiid simply don't believe in him, and that if he were to be traded everything would be smooth sailing is pretty optimistic. Why don't Doc and Embiid believe in him? Why is Philly a bad fit? He didn't just have a bad series against Atlanta. He looked completely defeated as a competitive NBA player. Even if you are optimistic about Simmons' ability to bounce back in a different situation, you have to acknowledge that this is far from a typical situation where a disgruntled star is looking to leave. There are a lot of question marks about his performance moving forward.

I'm not surprised Simmons grades out better in advanced metrics; he is extremely conservative with his play and is reportedly obsessed with perfection and efficiency. I mean, citing effective field goal percentage...get that shit out of here. One guy is AFRAID TO SHOOT THE BASKETBALL! He's also played a majority of his career with arguably the best post-up player in the NBA and other effective shooters and offensive players, as opposed to being stuck with the carousel of players in Sacramento.

It's not crazy to think that Simmons is better than Fox. If you value defense highly obviously Simmons has an enormous advantage that Fox can't make up. However, if you factor in all of the question marks surrounding Simmons and his future performance, his track record of stagnant growth, and the circus that has surrounded his lack of shooting since he first came into the league, I am very skeptical that trading Fox for Simmons would work out well for Sacramento. If I was Philly I'd do it in a heartbeat.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's not crazy to think that Simmons is better than Fox. If you value defense highly obviously Simmons has an enormous advantage that Fox can't make up. However, if you factor in all of the question marks surrounding Simmons and his future performance, his track record of stagnant growth, and the circus that has surrounded his lack of shooting since he first came into the league, I am very skeptical that trading Fox for Simmons would work out well for Sacramento. If I was Philly I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Any team that is trading for Simmons figures that (i) they're getting a discount based on what's going on right now, and (ii) they can fix him. Yeah, you're right if Simmons is broken, it's a bad trade but who does a trade based on the downside? The upside of getting Simmons to be willing to take shots in the 4Q is huge.

Yeah Fox is a nice player but where is SAC going these days? They are too good to be drafting at the top of the draft anymore. Free agents aren't signing. If I'm running SAC, I do the trade in a heartbeat. Yeah it might cost me my job, but the odds of SAC finding a guy with higher upside falls each year SAC drafts another good but not great player.

Which is why it should happen but probably won't.
I have to say the most surprising thing I learned in this article is . . . .



. . . . Someone is famous for creating ESPN's trade machine????
 

benhogan

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Dude, if you want to believe that the Atlanta series was an aberration and that Simmons is just a normal, 3x All-Star ready and able to be an All-NBA player, I don't know what to tell you. Just summarizing it as Philly being a bad fit and that Rivers and Embiid simply don't believe in him, and that if he were to be traded everything would be smooth sailing is pretty optimistic. Why don't Doc and Embiid believe in him? Why is Philly a bad fit? He didn't just have a bad series against Atlanta. He looked completely defeated as a competitive NBA player. Even if you are optimistic about Simmons' ability to bounce back in a different situation, you have to acknowledge that this is far from a typical situation where a disgruntled star is looking to leave. There are a lot of question marks about his performance moving forward.

I'm not surprised Simmons grades out better in advanced metrics; he is extremely conservative with his play and is reportedly obsessed with perfection and efficiency. I mean, citing effective field goal percentage...get that shit out of here. One guy is AFRAID TO SHOOT THE BASKETBALL! He's also played a majority of his career with arguably the best post-up player in the NBA and other effective shooters and offensive players, as opposed to being stuck with the carousel of players in Sacramento.

It's not crazy to think that Simmons is better than Fox. If you value defense highly obviously Simmons has an enormous advantage that Fox can't make up. However, if you factor in all of the question marks surrounding Simmons and his future performance, his track record of stagnant growth, and the circus that has surrounded his lack of shooting since he first came into the league, I am very skeptical that trading Fox for Simmons would work out well for Sacramento. If I was Philly I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Agreed the optics were terrible, on the biggest stage. The media ate it up, as did fans in 29 other cities.

A change of scenery would be helpful for both Philly/Ben, we've seen it a million times before in sports.

Ben has his flaws and I've called him a coward. BUT BS just turned 25. There is upside optionality value with regards to his shooting. If he ever develops/gets the courage to shoot 3s decently, ala Giannis, BS turns into a top 15 player. Fox will never have that upside potential. Plus Ben "non-shooter" is still better than Fox.
 

JM3

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Smart can't be traded. Isn't Gordon in the same boat?
Hmm. Based on that precedent, yeah, he shouldn't be tradeable. I guess he's just not updated on the ESPN trade machine.

Wolves interim GM, Gupta, is actually the guy who created that (my pony is slow).
 

JM3

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Ben >>> Fox

But if Fox wants to spend his career in Sacto, I totally see not putting him on the table for Ben culture-wise.
 

Kliq

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Agreed the optics were terrible, on the biggest stage. The media ate it up, as did fans in 29 other cities.

A change of scenery would be helpful for both Philly/Ben, we've seen it a million times before in sports.

Ben has his flaws and I've called him a coward. BUT BS just turned 25. There is upside optionality value with regards to his shooting. If he ever develops/gets the courage to shoot 3s decently, ala Giannis, BS turns into a top 15 player. Fox will never have that upside potential. Plus Ben "non-shooter" is still better than Fox.
If Ben Simmons can develop anything like Giannis is an unlikely assumption. One guy is probably the greatest player development story in the history of basketball and the other guy is basically the same player (at least offensively) as he was as a rookie.

Who do you think is more likely to improve over the next few seasons, Fox or Simmons? Even if you believe Simmons is better right now in his current incarnation (I don't) you would also have to factor in the likelihood of potential improvements when considering the age of the players.

To put it another way; what do you think is more likely to happen in the next few seasons: Ben Simmons shoots above 30% from three on at least 2 attempts per game, or DeAaron Fox shoots 38% from three on at least 5 attempts per game?
 
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JM3

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Is Fox actually improving? The only things he really improved from year 3 to 4 was playing 3 more minutes per game & shooting more frequently when playing. All of his rate stats were static or down.
 

Kliq

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Any team that is trading for Simmons figures that (i) they're getting a discount based on what's going on right now, and (ii) they can fix him. Yeah, you're right if Simmons is broken, it's a bad trade but who does a trade based on the downside? The upside of getting Simmons to be willing to take shots in the 4Q is huge.

Yeah Fox is a nice player but where is SAC going these days? They are too good to be drafting at the top of the draft anymore. Free agents aren't signing. If I'm running SAC, I do the trade in a heartbeat. Yeah it might cost me my job, but the odds of SAC finding a guy with higher upside falls each year SAC drafts another good but not great player.

Which is why it should happen but probably won't.
This is what I mean when I talk about a team making a move because they feel like they need to change their identity, or shake things up. It's a narrative play that doesn't really correspond directly with improving your team. If Sacramento wants to gamble on fixing Simmons and him turning into a regular All-NBA player, I personally see that as a huge risk at the cost of giving up Fox. What Sacramento needs to better coaching and for some of their younger players (including Fox, but also Bagley, Haliburton and Mitchell) to make significant improvements in order to become a playoff team. To me, that seems more like a viable path than gambling on fixing Ben Simmons.

I understand that part of the enigma of Simmons is that people and teams are probably going to view the risks associated with him very differently, and I'm probably more on the "Stay the hell away" side of the spectrum than other posters.
 

cheech13

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I know last season ended in a disastrous way on a huge stage, but if we are really saying Simmons is worse then Fox we’ve completely lost the thread. One is a 3x All-Star already and the other has an upside of maybe making an All-Star team. Sacramento would need to attach players and picks to make that a fair deal.
 

Kliq

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Is Fox actually improving? The only things he really improved from year 3 to 4 was playing 3 more minutes per game & shooting more frequently when playing. All of his rate stats were static or down.
Fox has improved his eFG% every year in the league, while also getting to the line more frequently, cutting down on turnovers, and is a better defender than he was as a rookie, even if he is still a liability on that end. Also, scoring points does actually matter. The ability to reliably create your own shot and score 25 ppg is the most in-demand skill in the NBA and Fox is adept at that, even if he could stand to be more efficient on that end.

I want to point out that Fox is basically the greatest finisher at the rim out of any small guard in NBA history. He shot 76% at the rim last season, and is at 69% for his career. For comparison, Kyrie, who is widely regarded as the league's preeminent below-the-rim finisher shot 62% last season at the rim. Chris Paul is a career 61% shooter at the rim. Simmons, who is 6'10", shot 68% last season at the rim. Giannis is a career 73% shooter at the rim. If Fox becomes a decent three point shooter, he becomes an even more dangerous offensive player.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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What Sacramento needs to better coaching and for some of their younger players (including Fox, but also Bagley, Haliburton and Mitchell) to make significant improvements in order to become a playoff team. To me, that seems more like a viable path than gambling on fixing Ben Simmons.
At this point, if SAC is going to be a contender, it's going to have to figure out its core of players to whom they are giving max contracts. Bagley isn't even a consideration - even if he does pop this year, Bagley isn't the kind of guy most of us would give a max contract. I think he's gone after this year. So then you have to wonder if Fox, Halliburton, and Mitchell can be that core.

Without knowing much about Hallburton and Mitchell because I just don't have the time to watch, I would guess the answer to that is no.

Simmons can be a core guy. Like him or hate him, if KL's shot bounced out, PHI probably would have a title win. So yes, Simmons can probably be part of a core that wins a championship, even with non-existent 3P shooting.
 

JM3

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Fox has improved his eFG% every year in the league, while also getting to the line more frequently, cutting down on turnovers, and is a better defender than he was as a rookie, even if he is still a liability on that end. Also, scoring points does actually matter. The ability to reliably create your own shot and score 25 ppg is the most in-demand skill in the NBA and Fox is adept at that, even if he could stand to be more efficient on that end.

I want to point out that Fox is basically the greatest finisher at the rim out of any small guard in NBA history. He shot 76% at the rim last season, and is at 69% for his career. For comparison, Kyrie, who is widely regarded as the league's preeminent below-the-rim finisher shot 62% last season at the rim. Chris Paul is a career 61% shooter at the rim. Simmons, who is 6'10", shot 68% last season at the rim. Giannis is a career 73% shooter at the rim. If Fox becomes a decent three point shooter, he becomes an even more dangerous offensive player.
Agree that Fox got much better from years 1 to 3. Not much fun year 3 to 4, but I don't disagree with most of your points about his offense.

Is he getting better at defense, though? This is rookie year through current l/r.

Drtg 113/111/112/118
DBPM -1.5/0.2/-0.5/-1.5
DWS 1.1/2.5/1.4/0.8
DRaptor -4.1/1.3/-2.1/-3.3

I tried to pull D-DARKO but failed lol.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Simmons is a such a unique player that having widely disparate assessments of his value makes sense. For me, its as easy to see him as a getting-them-checks guy in a few years or alternatively, as the key component to an NBA championship team. It wont stop people from grading any trade but this is one of those potential deals where the range of expected outcomes is a lot bigger than normal - that is also likely a factor in why this divorce is taking so long.
 

Jimbodandy

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I know last season ended in a disastrous way on a huge stage, but if we are really saying Simmons is worse then Fox we’ve completely lost the thread. One is a 3x All-Star already and the other has an upside of maybe making an All-Star team. Sacramento would need to attach players and picks to make that a fair deal.
I don't think that Fox is better than Simmons. But I'd rather have Fox than Simmons. Simmons is broken. He might get fixed somewhere else, but he's broken now. And this isn't just "optics" of the Atlanta series. The guy is scared to shoot the fucking basketball. The guy is THE SAME guy that he was in school. He adds nothing to his game ever.

If I'm an NBA GM, I'm trading for Ben Simmons under the following circumstances: 1. I need a roster shakeup badly, 2. I have such a god-awful defense that he's a huge plus even as a nonscorer, or 3. I need butts in seats. I'm not trading high-ceiling guys for him.

And this means basically that only non-contenders are trading for him, which Paul will fight. Fucking mess. Sacramento seems to be the only landing spot that meets the CA request and sucks enough that this dice roll is worth it to them.
 

benhogan

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If Ben Simmons can develop anything like Giannis is an unlikely assumption. One guy is probably the greatest player development story in the history of basketball and the other guy is basically the same player (at least offensively) as he was as a rookie.
Just for clarity, BS developing like Giannis was never my assumption. I don't ever see that happening.

I simply said this:
There is upside optionality value with regards to his shooting. If he ever develops/gets the courage to shoot 3s decently, ala Giannis, BS turns into a top 15 player.
there is "option value" of Ben becoming a 30% 3pt shooter like Giannis over the next 4 seasons. It's an outside chance, but a lower pressure situation may bring it out.
 
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