Also, if you're the Wolves and all he gives you is a 16/8/8 regular season then like 12/8/9 and a reluctance to shoot in the playoffs (those are his lines last year)... you take it, that's like a top 10 player in franchise history, and your franchise gets to the playoffs for the 2nd time in almost 20 years.
Maybe you guys are right. But a number of teams thought they could "fix" Derrick Coleman back in the day too. I wouldn't tie up my team with all of that baggage and price-tag.
I never said he did. Just several times it's been pointed out that these other, much better players were able to successfully navigate these scenarios, and the reason that happened is because their value as players gave them leverage. If no teams want to trade for Ben Simmons, that's an issue for Ben Simmons getting out of Philadelphia.
Doesn't this prove our point? There will be plenty of teams that think they can "fix" Ben Simmons.
The best thing Simmons could have done is come in, do some workouts, and say that he hurt his shoulder lifting weights.
Thing is, we know that there are teams willing to trade for Ben Simmons, but PHI doesn't like the offers. Simmons is pressuring them to accept an offer, any offer.
I can't envision that scenario. If Simmons were available for only matching salary, he'd be gone in a heart beat.
My disagreement is that there are "plenty of teams" who want Ben Simmons. I think that list gets smaller by the day as Simmons continues to act like a petulant child and that there are teams that may have considered it during the offseason and now want nothing to do with the guy.
There are reportedly 9 teams interested in Simmons plus one "mystery team." Leaving aside the mystery meat of the day, do you think any of those 9 teams wouldn't trade for Simmons at their current offering price (which is reportedly not much)?
That's right, but Philly can't accept any offer because of where they are as a team. Is it better for them to take a lesser offer or continue to play without Simmons? Is it better for Simmons to continue to not get paid or just show up and play? There aren't clean answers to these questions. I wouldn't trade Simmons for, say, D-Lo just because it's out there - that completely caps your future as a franchise and likely ends the Embiid era.
I mean, ok. Plenty could be 3 or 11 though. Would it be better if I said several or a handful? Quite a few? More than one?
I doubt it. There isn't any real indication teams think this way. They may offer less, but talent always wins out, we've seen it time and again in every league
It's why I think PHI handled this poorly. I think what happened is Morey underestimated Simmons' willingness to make a fuss. The best scenario for everybody would have been to have Ben show up, then hold him out for "reconditioning" then maybe a phantom injury. Morey seems to really think Simmons is just gonna show up and play like nothing is wrong if he gets fined enough, and I just don't see it. There are too many middle ground options Simmons can take and get paid, from playing half-assed, to showing up for practice and getting "hurt".
Simmons sitting for 4 years also likely ends the Embiid era. Simmons sitting for a year wastes a year of Embiid.
You're ruling out the possibility that Morey is more than happy to roll around in the mud with Simmons and Klutch.
This I 100% agree with. I'm convinced Rich Paul butchered this as well. Both sides seem to believe they have way more leverage than they do (and that's all due to how they've underestimated simmons value to the league)
Just as an aside. The Wolves would probably be willing to trade D-Lo for Simmons, but because he's apparently KAT's BFF, I think they think they can't.
Have there been any players of Simmons caliber to demand trades? They are usually top 10-15 players.
I'd assume they'd know one way or the other. They could just ask him. It is the Wolves though.
I hadn't thought of it that way. Nothing immediately comes to mind. Was Dwight Howard a top ten player? Baron Davis?
Howard was. Davis never was. I don't even remember Davis demanding a trade.
I think the above is a key point in driving Morey's behavior. He knows he is doing the owners a solid here by not caving into Klutch's demands. Philly can easily start the year without Simmons and there is no "distraction"; clearly Philly's best players don't really want him there.
And how many of those guys had max contracts at the time? I can't think of any off-hand.
Baron Davis was on a max.
Didn't Shaq force the trade to the Heat because he couldn't stand Kobe? Another center-guard relationship gone sour.
It's definitely Philly's fault that Simmons disappears in the most important moments of the most important games of the season.
He didn't get along with Jimmy Butler, he didn't get along with Embiid, he's not getting along with Doc (who's by all accounts a player's coach). He's not happy with his role. He's not improved his game since coming into the league (and has regressed on offense). What makes you think he's going to be a good sport in Minnesota or Sacramento? How would anyone be sure he'd not pull some new shit because the team stinks or Fox isn't the perfect sidekick for him or he's not touching the ball enough in a place like Golden State? What is the situation that Ben Simmons would excel in? He's not an easy basketball fit and we don't have a ton of great evidence that he's a personality fit either.
Memory is a bit flakey now, but wasn't it less of a trade demand and more of a "him or me" demand, with the Lakers choosing Kobe? Not an easy choice (Shaq was 1st team all-NBA in his last year in LA and also 1st team in Miami the next two years) but the right one, considering Kobe would spend the next 8-9 years on 1st team (and be the best player on two more title teams).
Same here. This train wreck is on Morey. As the leader he could have easily defused this situation months ago. How many more incompetent GM’s is Philly going to hire?
It also feels somewhat telling that Harden's version of being toxic was to average an efficient 25-10, Butler's version of being toxic was to show up in practice and destroy (on the court) the starters with bench guys, while Simmons' version of being toxic is to just not play at all.
I was just thinking of an example of a max player who forced a trade, and Shaq in LA came to mind.
No one would disagree that Simmons has been a problematic player. But how often do you see head coaches publicly throw players under the bus, regardless of how poorly they performed. It almost never happens, and for good reason. Doc made it impossible to keep him, Simmons read the writing on the wall and demanded out, and Morey let the shit fester instead of doing...anything.
Yes, that's why comparing Harden to Simmons isn't even in the same galaxy.
It strikes me more as intransigence than stupidity.
Interesting, is a little outside the box, but Occams Razor, etc!
Nobody gets along with Jimmy Butler, he's a psychopath who needs to be told he's the best or he loses it, and in building a self-mythology that he works harder than everyone else at the expense of teammate. not sure Doc (just see everyone who played for him in LA) is well liked by players anymore (if he ever was). One thing to remember, tons of guys don't get along in the league, it just becomes public when someone wants out or leaves (see KG still ignoring Allen years later, Kobe's teammates all hated him, lots of guys just don't particularly like each other, much like any workplace).
Simmons has positive value, PHI just thinks they can get a star back, which seems unlikely.
